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7x57
06-04-2009, 11:12 AM
I haven't seen a thread on this one yet:

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=10473040

Besides the obvious fun of an OC event at a church, it is a great juxtaposition of thoroughly incompatible philosophies going under the same name. Here is the article, which I seem to feel like giving the MST3k treatment, Second Amendment style:



VALLEY STATION, KY (WAVE) - Church shootings have been in the headlines for the past few years, so when a local church announced that it is asking people to bring guns to church we wanted to know why.


Um, didn't the first clause you wrote pretty much explain that?


Most people consider church a sanctuary, a place of peace.


"Most" meaning, just possibly, not absolutely all? Most meaning the law-abiding majority of the population that doesn't shoot up churches? Perhaps this isn't a situation where the majority's opinion rules? Maybe the only opinions that matter here are the minority of crazed criminals that do shoot up churches and apparently don't consider a church a place of peace. Should we maybe prepare for them instead? Just a little thought there.


But recently, church shootings have been in the headlines. Last Sunday, Kansas abortion Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed while ushering at his church. In March, an Illinois pastor was killed and two parishioners injured after a gunman opened fire during Sunday services. In July 2008, a gunman killed two people at a church youth performance in Knoxville, Tennessee. Despite Because of this news,


Fixed. I swear any decent editor would have caught that. :rolleyes:


Ken Pagano, pastor of New Bethel Church in Valley Station, is encouraging people to bring their guns to church on June 27.


OMG! What a radical new idea! No wonder the reporter is palpitating! This never used to happen in *America*! Certainly not in the early colonies. Certainly they didn't pass laws that adult men had to come armed to church in case of attack while everyone was gathered together in convenient location.

Oh, wait....


"This is for anybody that believes in second amendment rights. And that is the buttress to first amendment rights," said Pagano.


How about for those who would like to maximize their chances of living through a church shooting?


Pagano, a concealed carry instructor who served in the Marine Corps, is holding what he calls an Open Carry Celebration.


Kentucky pastor is a marine and a CC instructor. If that's redneck, count me in. :thumbsup:


"We're trying to promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety," Pagano said.


That's it. He's a tool of Satan. :rolleyes:


People can come into the church wearing their gun as long as the weapon is unloaded and in a secure holster.


Whoops. Second Amendment FAIL. Why California OC if you're not in the people's republic?


"People in this community with all the negativity that goes with firearms and what I call unhealthy paranoia. Kentucky is an open carry state," said Pagano.


Gee. And who might be spreading all that negativity? Certainly not *this* TV station. Nah, they just report the news. No unstated bias here. No siree.


"We are going back to the wild, wild west" said Rev. James Tennyson of the Justice Resource Center.


Hmm. Which Wild West would that be? The imaginary one of novel and movie that never existed? The one the left uses to implicitly slander everything American, white, or just insufficiently leftist? Or do you mean the one where murder was confined largely to mutual combat between young men, rape was unheard of, any gang that actually tried to terrorize a town would be cut down in a hail of rifle fire from ex-Civil War veterans who knew what to do with people who threatened the peace, and in general was far safer than the cities that *your* policies have created unless you chose to put yourself in the limited places where those young men chose to engage in mutual combat?


The Open Carry Celebration isn't sitting well with Tennyson. "Anytime you bring any type of weapons into a house of God, it bothers me."


Oh, snap. The right Reverend Tennyson is BOTHERED. That certainly settles it.


Within the past three years, Tennyson says the JRC has gotten at least 300 guns off the streets through their gun buyback program.


Was that 300 functional guns in the hands of violent felons, or was that 300 non-functional, rare, and cheap guns in the hands of people who are more likely to be the victims of the violent felons who didn't turn in their guns?


He says bringing guns into the house of God, even if they are unloaded, is sending the wrong message.


It's purely a guess here, but I'm thinking that preaching sermons that make a first-century Jew sound like a twenty-first century Marxist is sending the right message.


Pagano disagrees.

"This will be the safest place in town that day," said Pagano.

According to Pagano, a local police officer will provide security at the open carry celebration,


Because trouble is likely to start at a place that is hip-deep in armed citizens? I guess Rev. Tennyson might show up and bother people.

In reality, of course, this is probably just to reduce criticism by playing to the left's genuflection toward badges and uniforms.


which will be a picnic-like setting with food and games. There will even be a raffle to win a gun.


"It's OK, mama. It's not one of those bad guns. Jesus gave me this gun." :eek: :43:


Pagano said the money raised will go to a local charity, not the church. Area gun store and firing range owners will be on hand to talk about safety.


"I want to talk about the Ten Commandments today. First: "Thou shalt have no other thing before the muzzle of your gun but that which thou dost not scruple to destroy." Second: "Keep thy finger far from the trigger of thy gun with all thy heart." Third....


(Copyright 2009 WAVE-TV and Raycom Media. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)


I posted the article because people complain about links without copying the text. It is certain we really should be doing this, however? The above satire may well fall under the comedy exception, but we don't usually MST3k articles.

7x57

KCM222
06-04-2009, 11:29 AM
"It's OK, mama. It's not one of those bad guns. Jesus gave me this gun." :eek: :43:

Oh snap, I want a Jesus gun.

But seriously, won't there be children at this event? Do we really want them to witness the carnage of the result of having so many guns in such a small location?

pullnshoot25
06-04-2009, 11:36 AM
Being associated with this thread and, by extension, people such as yourself, makes me proud :)

7x57
06-04-2009, 11:52 AM
Being associated with this thread and, by extension, people such as yourself, makes me proud :)

I am but the humble messenger of the LORD. :eek: :rolleyes:

7x57

kertong
06-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Straight from the horse's mouth:

Exodus 22:2 - "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guiltiness on his account."

nick
06-04-2009, 12:19 PM
I am but the humble messenger of the LORD. :eek: :rolleyes:

7x57

And of the gun :p

Vectrexer
06-04-2009, 12:25 PM
This may be the one church I would actually go to.

Anyone know of similar churches in the sane portions of California?

Flopper
06-04-2009, 12:41 PM
This may be the one church I would actually go to.

Anyone know of similar churches in the sane portions of California?

i'm not the first to suggest this, but. . .

we could always start one! :thumbsup:

ETA-how inappropriate, post #69!

CaliforniaCarry
06-04-2009, 12:45 PM
Except for the requirement that the guns be unloaded, I think is pretty awesome.

My church is one of places where most fear for those I love. My church is a regular gathering place for large numbers of people that I know and care for. There's hardly a better place for a criminal to attack such a large percentage of the people that I wouldn't hesitate to take a bullet for. If ever there was a place I would consider illegally CC'ing, that'd be it.

As soon as I confirm that my church campus isn't considered a "school" (I think we might run a day school, although I'm not 100% certain), I will likely start legal locked-container carry there.

Old Timer
06-04-2009, 2:36 PM
This may be the one church I would actually go to.

Anyone know of similar churches in the sane portions of California?I have been Senior Pastor of a small church in San Diego for well over 20 years. Open carry is perfectly okay with me. I carry concealled every day including Sunday when I am in the pulpit. We may not be many but we are out here. :)

Old Timer
06-04-2009, 2:38 PM
As soon as I confirm that my church campus isn't considered a "school" (I think we might run a day school, although I'm not 100% certain), I will likely start legal locked-container carry there.Even if your church has a day school, you can still get a waver to open carry. If you are a church officer (deacon, trustee, staff member) the church may be considered your place of business thus allowing you to carry. :)

Turo
06-04-2009, 3:05 PM
Man, my church has a private school on the campus... I'm pretty sure I'd be within the 1000' mark.

socalsheepdog
06-04-2009, 4:24 PM
"Anytime you bring any type of weapons into a house of God, it bothers me."

Better leave your brain at the door then. That is really the only weapon that matters.

7x57
06-04-2009, 4:55 PM
I have been Senior Pastor of a small church in San Diego for well over 20 years. Open carry is perfectly okay with me. I carry concealled every day including Sunday when I am in the pulpit. We may not be many but we are out here. :)

Man, suddenly I'm homesick for rural Montana for some unexplainable reason. ;)

ETA: what denomination? I have some suspicions about which ones are *not* likely....

7x57

7x57
06-04-2009, 7:26 PM
The Denver Gun Rights Examiner has
a post on the church carry event (http://www.examiner.com/x-2944-Denver-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m6d4-Bring-your-gun-to-church-day?cid=exrss-Denver-Gun-Rights-Examiner). He's harsher about the "empty guns" rule than was.

7x57

Mulay El Raisuli
06-05-2009, 7:30 AM
I haven't seen a thread on this one yet:

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=10473040

Besides the obvious fun of an OC event at a church, it is a great juxtaposition of thoroughly incompatible philosophies going under the same name. Here is the article, which I seem to feel like giving the MST3k treatment, Second Amendment style:

7x57



And a pretty good job ya done, too.

The Raisuli

Old Timer
06-05-2009, 8:28 AM
ETA: what denomination?Baptist. :)

7x57
06-05-2009, 10:36 AM
Baptist. :)

Well, OK, but that covers just a wee bit of ground. ;) I'll bet heavily against American Baptist, for obvious reasons. Southern Baptist is possible, but I'm going to say no just on a hunch. Not too many free-will Baptists in SoCal that I've seen, so I guess I won't go that way. Maybe something in the Regular or Landmark Baptist tradition, or an independent church with a Baptist theology?

The trouble with Baptists is they take the independence of the local church even more seriously than other low-church Protestants, so the number of possible associations is like the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky. :)

7x57

Old Timer
06-05-2009, 10:58 AM
Well, OK, but that covers just a wee bit of ground. ;) I'll bet heavily against American Baptist, for obvious reasons. Southern Baptist is possible, but I'm going to say no just on a hunch. Not too many free-will Baptists in SoCal that I've seen, so I guess I won't go that way. Maybe something in the Regular or Landmark Baptist tradition, or an independent church with a Baptist theology?

The trouble with Baptists is they take the independence of the local church even more seriously than other low-church Protestants, so the number of possible associations is like the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky. :)

7x57LOL! You got that right! However, my response would be, "none of the above." We are an historic unaffiliated Baptist congregation in the Particular Baptist tradition. However, I take exception to the "other Protestant" statement. We don't consider ourselves Protestant in the strict meaning of the word, never having been part of the Church of Rome. We trace our spiritual heritage through the Novatians, Donatists, Petrobussians, and Albegenses, but without all the Landmark hang-ups. :)

But this doesn't have a lot to do with guns, so, just to make it legal, guns, open or concealed, are welcome anytime. :)

By the way, I was born in Pasadena well over 6 decades ago. And, up until 1993, I taught at Pacific Coast Baptist College in San Dimas, just east of you. :)

joeyriv
06-05-2009, 11:44 AM
I find it hard to believe that it took the 20th post in this thread to use the "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition..." cliche :jump:

7x57
06-05-2009, 11:57 AM
LOL! You got that right! However, my response would be, "none of the above." We are an historic unaffiliated Baptist congregation in the Particular Baptist tradition.


I attempted to cover that possibility with the independent church thing, but probably tripped up on a detail. To me Particular and Regular Baptists are similar enough to put them in the same pigeonhole--no doubt to the outrage of Particular and Regular Baptists everywhere. :chris:


However, I take exception to the "other Protestant" statement. We don't consider ourselves Protestant in the strict meaning of the word, never having been part of the Church of Rome. We trace our spiritual heritage through the Novatians, Donatists, Petrobussians, and Albegenses, but without all the Landmark hang-ups.


I can maybe go as far as saying *fewer* hangups, but anybody who tries to trace a tradition of biblical theology through the Albigensians and doesn't want to be called a Protestant is close enough to a Landmark Baptist in my book. ;) Trying to remember how this works, I guess that means I believe the Catholic defamation of the heretics too much, right? :eek: I'll give you the Waldensians, though, so far as I can tell they were pretty much OK.

To be clear, my dad is ordained in the Wesleyan church, which means the theological lineage is Anglican -> Methodist -> Holiness. That's heathen as far as the really committed Landmark Baptists are concerned, I think. I can distinguish certain general groupings thanks to some effort and reading (there is wonderful little Regular Baptist church nearby and I went to look up their heritage), but I still can't get the subgroupings straight. And that's without even *trying* with the smaller black Baptist churches, which I have even less of a handle on. There are a ton of Missionary Baptist churches here which made me aware that there was a whole other bucketful of Baptists I didn't know anything about.

And just to be clear, one of the things I like about conservative Baptists is that they too are a rowdy bunch of malcontents who don't take orders well. Who better to cross over with Calgunners? :thumbsup: We lost the United Methodist church completely because Methodists tried not to be malcontents (my folks were active evangelists right through that whole sorry mess), so I always recommend people in that tradition not overdo the good English politeness. :chris:

This would be a really fun thing to discuss, as almost everything I know about the whole tracing-of-the-faithful thing is secondhand.


But this doesn't have a lot to do with guns, so, just to make it legal, guns, open or concealed, are welcome anytime.


Heh. That would be fun. It would be a bit of a Sunday morning drive from up here though.

Say, when the time comes for a little strategic OC, you ought to have one of those events. I bet even the more committed heathen Calgunners would enjoy OCing in church just because it's, well, church. :43:


By the way, I was born in Pasadena well over 6 decades ago. And, up until 1993, I taught at Pacific Coast Baptist College in San Dimas, just east of you.

I'm not a Pasadena native, I was transplanted here from Montana, but I've been here a while. There are a lot more good Baptist churches here than Methodist or Holiness, so it's definitely a kind of Baptist territory.

So where is our "Guns & Theology" subforum?

7x57

N6ATF
06-05-2009, 12:23 PM
Peace... through superior firepower.

7x57
06-27-2009, 12:33 AM
"From the darkness of Kestryll's spare sock drawer, I summon thee by the power of Search...."

Just a little Thread Necromancy there. :D

Anyway, looks like even the New York Times has covered (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us/26guns.html) this little church-carry event. Looks like there has been some consequences, too (see the end of the article).

Will it work, MST3k style? Won't know until we try, will we? It's hard to go wrong having fun a the expense of the NYT, though.

OK, I lied. I already know how it's going to go. I'm going to use the article as an excuse to just be nasty. :D


Pastor Urges His Flock to Bring Guns to Church

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights.


Given the "California Crippled Carry" style required at this event, I was having my doubts, but this picture does restore my, um, faith a bit.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/06/25/us/26guns_600.jpg

I'm slightly disappointed it isn't an AK or at least an AR, but maybe the pastor doesn't want to be like everyone else. Or, maybe MP5 is just the way he rolls.

I expect the NYT to want a picture looking as extreme as they can spin it, but if they expected the Rev to back down I guess the surprise was on them.


He shoots regularly at the local firing range,


My God! At a firing range. REGULARLY. The man's clearly a maniac....


and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.”


God? Well, it is a church, after all. It would be sorta inappropriate without God. Check.

Guns? Well, this is Kentucky, so why not I ask? Check.

Gospel? Well, that is pretty much the Reverend's job description: "Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Check.

"Geometry." Well, after all...um...waitasec...nope...maybe he...OK, I got nothing. :confused:


And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it.


"Their firearms?" All of them? That could be real tough for some people....


“God and guns were part of the foundation of this country,” Mr. Pagano, 49, said Wednesday in the small brick Assembly of God church, where a large wooden cross hung over the altar and two American flags jutted from side walls.


AG, huh? Remember way back to the campaign, when you news agencies were trying to paint Wasilla Assembly of God as way-out wacky-coo-coo? Just way out over the edge? All they had was members that hunted moose. So now how extreme does normal small-town Alaska life look to you, Mr. Smarty-Pants Big-Shot Mainstream News Reporter?


“I don’t see any contradiction in this. Not every Christian denomination is pacifist.”


In fact very few of them are, but I suppose he's right to break the truth slowly to someone whose grip on reality is as fragile as that of a NYT reporter. :43:


The bring-your-gun-to-church day, which will include a $1 raffle of a handgun, firearms safety lessons and a picnic, is another sign that the gun culture in the United States is thriving despite, or perhaps because of, President Obama’s election in November.


I guess billions of rounds of ammo drained out of the supply line actually made enough noise to be heard in Barad-Dur, I mean NYT headquarters.


Last year, the National Rifle Association ran a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign against Mr. Obama, stoking fears that he would be the most antigun president in history and that firearms would be confiscated. One worry was that a Democratic president and Congress would reinstitute the assault-weapons ban, which expired in 2004.


Gosh. Us worried about that little old thing? You thought we were worried about that? Nah, nobody's watching every little beat of your gun-banning heart and twitch of your Constitution-shredding fingers and spreading it all over the internet to every gun owner on the planet so we can't be caught off-guard by stealth legislation like the old days, analyzing, dissecting, reacting....


So just go about your normal political business and don't mind us watching every little...oh, wait, I said that.

I do love the mobilization speed of the net. To think we used to not know what they did until it was too late?


But there is little support for the ban. Mr. Obama and his party have largely ignored gun-control issues, and the president even signed a measure that will allow firearms in national parks.


And I'd pay to hear the private anguish among the Presidential staff, too.


Still, the fear remains that Mr. Obama, and his attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., will crack down on guns sooner or later.


Here, we were getting along so well. I was reigning in the "partisan fifth-column" type of remarks about a supposedly Mainstream news article, and you were refraining from the Blood Libel and Incitement against me, my family, and the Constitution Of The United States. And then you just had to go and slip in a loaded term. Frankly, I just don't think this relationship is going to work out. I may even have to seek comfort in the arms of another News Outlet....


That — along with the faltering economy, which gun sellers say has spurred purchases for self-defense — has fueled a record surge in gun sales.


And every day you remind your inside-the-beltway readers about that record surge, we win just a little tiny bit.


“Every president wants to be re-elected, and gun bans are pretty much a nonstarter for getting re-elected,” said Win Underwood, owner of the Bluegrass Indoor Range here. “What I suspect is going to happen is, Obama’s going to cool his jets until he can get re-elected, and then he’ll start building his legacy in these hot-button areas.”


No real wisecrack here, I'm just a real fan of anyplace called the Bluegrass anything.


When Mr. Obama was elected in November, federal instant background checks, the best indicator of gun sales, jumped 42 percent over the previous November. Every month since then, the number of checks has been higher than the year before, although the postelection surge may be tapering off, as all surges eventually do. While the number of checks in April increased 30 percent from the year before, the number of checks in May (1,023,102) was only 15 percent higher than in May 2008.


Or maybe people just quit buying guns until they can build up their ammo supply a bit?


The National Rifle Association says its membership is up 30 percent since November.


Say, how are the membership numbers at the Brady Campaign? Big popular surge? How about the Violence Policy Center? How about LCAV? Surging big? Morale up? Eager for battle? New infringements and violations all around? The end of the fight finally in sight?

Aw, what a shame. :43:


And several states have recently passed laws allowing gun owners to carry firearms in more places — bars, restaurants, cars and parks.


What, no snide comment about blood in the streets or something? Can it be?


“We have a very active agenda in all 50 states,” said Chris W. Cox, legislative director of the N.R.A., widely considered the country’s most powerful lobby. “We have right-to-carry laws in over 40 states; 20 years ago, it was in just six.”

Of the 40 states with right-to-carry laws, 20 allow guns in churches.


And no doubt blood flowed in the pews as soon as those rabid animals you call "the public" got the chance. Right? You're going to quote us solid statistics on the human toll, right?


Public attitudes also seem to be turning more sympathetic to gun owners.


Apparently. What else could explain the NYT running an article like this without suggesting that we're a bunch of rabid, savage animals thirsting for the blood of the innocent? Not fairness and honesty, that's for sure.

Still, ya did a real fine job of phrasing that so as to make the reader unconsciously picture gun owners as not being the pubic. It isn't the public itself buying more guns, just some small minority of gun owners. Smooth. I like to see a professional at work.


In April, the Pew Research Center found for the first time that almost as many people said it was more important to protect the rights of gun owners (45 percent) than to control gun ownership (49 percent). Just a year ago, Pew said, 58 percent said gun control was more important than the rights of gun owners (37 percent).


I guess Obama really has made a difference, then?


Gun-control advocates say they feel increasingly ineffective,


And so they all quit to get a more fulfilling job where they could make a difference, right? Right? Um...right?

Aw, nuts.


especially after a recent spate of high-profile shootings, including last month’s murder, inside a church in Kansas, of a doctor who performed late-term abortions.


What about after the Supreme Court said that everything you claimed about the law was all a tissue of lies and deception?

7x57

7x57
06-27-2009, 12:59 AM
“We’ve definitely been marginalized,” said Pam Gersh, a public relations consultant here who helped organize a rally in Louisville in 2000, to coincide with the Million Mom March against guns in Washington.


Ah yes, passive voice. Especially recommended when you wish to avoid mentioning the agent performing the action--see Lincoln's Second Inaugural.

Say, this isn't just to hide the fact that you marginalized yourselves by lying over and over again, decade after decade, while victims you helped to disarm were killed, raped, and terrorized until even the non-gun owning public started to notice, is it?


“The Brady Campaign and other similar organizations who advocate sensible gun responsibility laws


Huh. "Sensible gun responsibility laws"? Another new phrase--did "sensible gun laws" have less traction than you hoped? "Responsibility?" You mean all you ever really wanted was training and things like that? Weird. We all thought you wanted to ban them piecemeal until you could start confiscating them like you did in the rest of the English-speaking world.

If you'd just come out and said that all you wanted was a little responsibility back then we could have avoided a lot of unpleasantness. But I'm sure we're cool now.

Say, uh, you're going to stick to that and not try another sneaky ban the next time you get a chance, right? Right? Uh...right?


don’t have the money and the political power — not even close,” she said.


No, Certainly not far more money from a few big, ideologically motivated donors than us poor ordinary slobs manage to send to the NRA a few bucks at a time. Certainly not from George Soros and the Joyce Foundation.


“This pastor is obviously crossing a line here


You tried to openly violate and take away a fundamental enumerated Constitutional right, and didn't care just how many pieces you shredded the Constitution into in the process, and he's crossing the line? The NFA and the New York Sullivan Law weren't crossing any line into a new and unrecognizable America?


and saying ‘I can even take my guns to church, and there is nothing you can do about it.’ ”


To be perfectly honest, I think James Madison said that "there is nothing you can do about it."

So you're going to quit holding victim's arms behind their back and get an honest job, right? Um, right?


Ms. Gersh said she was not aware that a group of local churches and peace activists were staging a counterpicnic — called “Bring your peaceful heart, leave your gun at home” — at the same time as Mr. Pagano’s event.


Say, what if I bring my peaceful heart and my gun? You know, just to show you that we're not the vile animals you've spent my entire lifetime stigmatizing us as?


But news media attention — some from overseas —


"Give me your huddled, weary masses...."

Knowing how very, very inferior you feel toward everyone outside of America, that must just be eating you alive inside.


has focused on Mr. Pagano, who has been planning the event for a year, in celebration of the Fourth of July. Cameras will not be allowed in the church, he said, to protect the congregation’s privacy.

The celebration will feature lessons in responsible gun ownership, Mr. Pagano said.


Like keeping your firearms ready for use when in a public place that might attract a gunman?


Sheriff’s deputies will be at the doors to check that openly carried firearms are unloaded,


Guess not.


but they will not check for concealed weapons.

“That’s the whole point of concealed,” Mr. Pagano said, adding that he was not worried because such owners require training.


Gee, Rev, much as I know your heart is in the right place, is it just possible even you've bought just a little bit of the anti-gun line?


Mr. Pagano said the church’s insurance company, which he would not identify, had canceled the church’s policy for the day on Saturday and told him that it would cancel the policy for good at the end of the year. If he cannot find insurance for Saturday, people will not be allowed in openly carrying their guns.


Say, what would happen if someone canceled an insurance policy because they exercised their First Amendment rights in some way the insurer didn't like? Would you just shrug and say "well, they're a private company, we respect their right to do anything they want with their money?" Would you? Or would you try to whip up the beltway crowd into a killing frenzy?

If we ever get the courts to force you to interfere on behalf of gun rights in the same way, will you suddenly start to see some wisdom in the respect for private property that you've been steadily assaulting for so long?

Or failing that, will you just drop the double-standard?


Arkansas and Georgia recently rejected efforts to allow people to carry concealed weapons in church. Watching the debate in Arkansas was John Phillips, pastor of the Central Church of Christ in Little Rock. In 1986, Mr. Phillips was preaching in a different church there when a gunman shot him and a parishioner. Both survived, but Mr. Phillips, 51, still has a bullet lodged in his spine.


Is the lesson that the guns of the law-abiding make crazy people crazy, or is it that crazy people bring guns to church and it might not be a good idea to give them a monopoly? See the one little difference--that you just have to see a difference between citizens and homicidal maniacs? If you worked very, very hard, do you think you could make that distinction too? Try it just once, for me. Good boy.


In a telephone interview, he said he found the idea of “packing in the pew” abhorrent.


That's it, then. John Phillips says he abhors the idea. I think any sensible society will see that rights and the law take a back seat to John Phillips' irrational revulsions.


“There is a movement afoot across the nation, with the gun lobby pushing the envelope, trying to allow concealed weapons to be carried in places where they used to be prohibited — churches, schools, bars,” Mr. Phillips said.


Hey, interesting. The Reverend Phillips is a student of history. Let's ask him about what used to be. Is that "used to be prohibited back in the second half of the twentieth century" in the little statist dystopia you were turning the country into, you mean? Or do you mean "used to be prohibited back in the first half of the twentieth century when schoolboys would take the .22 they bought with their own money at an ordinary hardware store that sold it like any other tool and bring it to school for show and tell?" Maybe you mean "used to in the nineteenth century when every man West of the Mississippi and a good fraction East of it went to the bar without even thinking about whether he was carrying or not?" Say, maybe you mean "used to be prohibited back in the colonies that required every man to come to church armed for the safety of the community?"


“I don’t understand how any minister who is familiar with the teachings of the Bible can do this,” he added. “Jesus didn’t say, ‘Go ahead, make my day.’ ”


That's it? That's the kind of exegetical brilliance they're teaching in the liberal seminaries these days? I guess studying would be, like, hard.

No, he didn't say "make my day," but then he didn't say he was just a simple ethical teacher who spouted whatever shallow moralisms happen to tickle the ears of a congregation that wants to be affirmed in their conformance to popular culture, either. But don't take my word for the insipid, milquetoast speaker of the obvious you turned him into. Go talk to Albert Schweitzer. He was no wacky Fundamentalist you can write off, but he seems to have grasped something just slightly more radical in the "teachings of the Bible" than "just do what secular culture says, but be a bit more out on the Progressive end of the antithesis than the average."


Mr. Pagano takes such comments as a challenge to his faith and says they make him more determined.

“When someone from within the church tells me that being a Christian and having firearms are contradictions, that they’re incompatible with the Gospel — baloney,” he said. “As soon as you start saying that it’s not something that Christians do, well, guns are just the foil. The issue now is the Gospel. So in a sense, it does become a crusade. Now the Gospel is at stake.”


Don't you think you're exaggerating there a bit, Rev? The gospel is at stake? I mean, all that is happening is that people are making Jesus say whatever the omnipotent state wants. Using Him to teach submission instead of teaching Constitutional citizenship. Kind of like that neat state-church idea Constantine came up with. But that couldn't really go wrong in the end, could it? Using the church for political ends? That's safe and all, right?

Hmm. Maybe, and I'm just going to go way out on a limb here, the pastor has a point that matters as much to non-Christians as to Christians.

7x57

Werewolf1021
06-27-2009, 2:09 AM
Tiny thread jack here. Can you OC in churches in California. My mom has been bugging me to go and I totally would if I could. "Peace be with you....what is that?" "My peace-maker."

bodger
06-27-2009, 9:33 AM
I have been Senior Pastor of a small church in San Diego for well over 20 years. Open carry is perfectly okay with me. I carry concealled every day including Sunday when I am in the pulpit. We may not be many but we are out here. :)

If I lived in San Diego, I would darn sure worship in and support your church.
Good on ya Sir.

nicki
06-27-2009, 12:23 PM
I don't see why we couldn't open loaded carry here in a Church here in Ca right now if the church openly promoted it.

It would be kinda fun with a big sign on the outside.

This is a "Loaded gun zone".

Now, if it would be legal for people to have loaded open guns on the outside property, we could have real fun.

All Unloaded guns shall be "loaded" prior to entering the church would be practical.

Nicki

N6ATF
06-27-2009, 3:51 PM
Unfortunately if judges are going to rule that there is no such thing as private property, then "loaded gun zone" churches will be raided every Sunday until the worshippers bow down before the false god of total victim disarmament.

GoodEyeSniper
06-27-2009, 6:28 PM
This may be the one church I would actually go to.

Anyone know of similar churches in the sane portions of California?

At my church(well, I used to go regularly, now it's more of an Easter/Christmas occasion) I personally know of a couple men who carried concealed. I'm not sure if the current pastor knows that, or is glad of it, or whatever. But I think one of them is an elder.

However, I get the feeling that if I had my permit, and asked the pastor beforehand, he would probably tell me to leave it at home. Which is why I'd carry without anyone knowing. Though getting hugs from one of the shorter women might just have the gun in the wrong spot.

Then again, the pastor used to love me when I went there, and their newborn son somehow has both my first AND middle name.... :TFH: Not a common name at all, either.

eltee
06-28-2009, 12:38 AM
Remember the old WWII mantra/song: "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition..."

gunsmith
06-28-2009, 2:17 AM
I was thinking the same things only I simply read the article ...was it on drudge? IDK, I saw it, & I didn't like the unloaded angle.

I carried all the time in NV, that included Church & Bars.

7x57
06-28-2009, 6:09 PM
I was thinking the same things only I simply read the article ...was it on drudge?


I'm not sure, but it's quite likely where I got the NYT article.

7x57

7x57
10-20-2009, 1:20 PM
I guess I'll do a little thread Necromancy, because I found a further development (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/12/ky-pastor-drops-flock-for-his-glock/) on this colorful little story:


Kentucky pastor drops flock for his Glock

By Valerie Richardson

The Kentucky pastor who drew notice earlier this year for hosting a God-and-guns event at his church is giving up his flock for his Glock.

Pastor Ken Pagano resigned his post last month at the New Bethel Church in Louisville, Ky., after nearly 30 years in the ministry, saying he wants to focus on Second Amendment and church-security issues.

"Thirty years was a good, long run, but it's time for a change," Mr. Pagano said in an interview with The Washington Times. "If I can write my own ticket, I want to get involved more in Second Amendment issues as they affect the church, and I can do more from outside the pulpit than from behind it."

Mr. Pagano gained national attention when his congregation hosted an Open Carry Celebration a week before Independence Day to commemorate the roles of religion and gun ownership in the nation's founding. About 200 people attended the event, which featured a handgun raffle and firearm-safety information.

Some of them wore their own guns in holsters. Kentucky law allows residents to carry guns openly in public with some restrictions, although gun owners who carry concealed weapons must have permits. The event wasn't supposed to be a big deal, Mr. Pagano said, but "it really struck a nerve."

"I would say 90 to 95 percent of all the correspondence we received was positive, saying, 'We're glad somebody's standing up for this,' " Mr. Pagano said. "There were some who said, 'Oh, it's a bunch of rednecks.' "

Mr. Pagano said he was considering a career change even before the event, but the ripple effect led him to Rabbi Gary Moskowitz of New York, who has long worked with synagogues on protection from terrorist threats.

Mr. Pagano and Mr. Moskowitz have since teamed up to form the International Security Coalition of Clergy, an organization dedicated to "making the vulnerable less vulnerable," according to their mission statement.

"Churches are very soft targets and very vulnerable to attack from terrorists and other homegrown, disgruntled individuals," Mr. Pagano said. "Unfortunately, most religious leaders are living in denial."

The number of high-profile attacks on churches has spiraled in the past decade. This year's church violence includes the deadly shooting of a late-term abortion provider in Wichita, Kan., a fatal attack on a pastor shot midsermon in Maryville, Ill., and the killing of a female parishioner by her estranged husband in a church parking lot in Silver Spring, Md.

A handful of companies specializing in church security have sprung up in response. Glen Evans, who runs the Church Security Alliance in Dayton, Ohio, said many churches are eager to improve on basic security, such as locking doors and checking perimeters regularly, but wrestle with the idea of having an armed guard or parishioner within the church during services.

"When you have a church, you have people with the belief that you shouldn't have a gun in church," said Mr. Evans, a police officer with a SWAT background. "But sometimes a firearm is the only thing that's going to stop someone from shooting people."

Mr. Pagano advocates a security team of five church members who have at least 40 hours of training in firearms and other tactics. The advantage of using church members instead of a hired guard is that they're better able to separate the regular attendees from the first-time visitors.

The idea is self-defense, not aggression, Mr. Moskowitz said.

"I'm not taking the position that everyone should have a gun. I'm taking the position that every house of worship or any other high-visibility target should have a person or persons trained in the use of firearms," the rabbi said.

Such talk exasperates gun-control advocates, who say that firearms in a crowded environment such as a house of worship has the potential for disaster.

"I've got no problems with any institution, whether it's a business or a church, hiring professional, trained security people who know the risks," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "What I do have serious concerns about is the idea that a private individual, just because they're a gun owner, can be a security guard just by carrying a gun to church."

As for Mr. Pagano, Mr. Helmke said, "Maybe he should be more concerned about the Fifth Commandment than the Second Amendment."

What some people don't realize is that a pastor isn't a "sanctified sheep," Mr. Pagano said, but a shepherd, the protector of the flock. That includes the physical safety of the parishioners within the church building.

"People have this idea that Christians have to turn the other cheek," Mr. Pagano said. "That's true, but I don't think there's anything in the Old or New Testament that requires them to roll over and die if someone attacks them or their family."


The last part makes me want to comment on what "turn the other cheek" probably was originally understood to mean, but I forbear.

I believe there is a California group with a similar approach to church security.

7x57

socal2310
10-20-2009, 10:01 PM
Geeze. Talk about a passage that's been taken out of context! Who was the first idiot to decide that, "Turn the other cheek," meant, "Don't defend yourself against a violent assault,"? It was essentially an admonition not to engage in duels over matters of honor!

The reason Christians in the first century died quietly in the arena was because they understood that self defense under such circumstances was not really self defense but an attempt to take as many of the enemy with them as possible. I still wouldn't defend myself personally under such futile circumstances (though I wouldn't have any reluctance to run interference on behalf of my loved ones).

Ryan

7x57
10-21-2009, 8:05 AM
Geeze. Talk about a passage that's been taken out of context! Who was the first idiot to decide that, "Turn the other cheek," meant, "Don't defend yourself against a violent assault,"? It was essentially an admonition not to engage in duels over matters of honor!


Indeed, and you have said something that seems to have escaped an awful lot of professional theologians with a good number of letters after their name. This is a point that is extremely hard to make because people without a concept of metaphysical honor generally misunderstand those with one. But I don't think Homer could have misunderstood, nor those who made him their equivalent of scripture.

Now for the part which is hard for those who *do* have a strong notion of personal honor. For his uneducated (no Tanakh == uneducated, for this purpose) Greeks, Paul told them that in conversion they gave up personal honor per se, as they were bondslaves of Christ. Their personal honor was that of a trusted slave of Caesar (more contextual problems--"slavery" implied something vastly different to a first-century Greek than to us, and a slave could be an important person indeed depending on his master and duties)--derivative of their master. This seems to be a clarification of Jesus' teaching and not a novelty. A slap on the cheek is an affront to personal honor--thus the Christian does not redress the affront. Profiteering on required sacrifices in the temple (let's ignore the Jewish objections to this passage and simply take it as written for this purpose) is an affront to *God's* honor. The bondslave of Caesar has no personal honor to defend, but is jealous indeed of his master's honor. So it is, says Paul, for you. You must be jealous of God's honor, but not of your own.

BTW, notice that the self-defense law we inherited is essentially a Christian one. You can defend yourself or your property. But you can't pursue the perp to satisfy honor or inflict punishment, as "vengance is the Lord's states." I always chuckle when I imagine the hard-core "wall of separation" people confronted with having to accept legal duels of honor because the prohibition of them was imposed on the pagans by Christians. :43:

You know, I once said there wasn't enough of an audience here to even discuss the theology of self-defense, and so I stick with natural philosophy that has no religious content at all. But I guess I just posted some theology after all.

7x57