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View Full Version : FUD check (regarding CA background check/DROS process)


cbn620
06-04-2009, 3:22 AM
As a disclaimer I am -NOT- proclaiming this to be the truth and am not trying to spread FUD. Without seeing proof I take anything I hear with a grain of salt until I can verify it with full fact. Please do not shoot the messenger, I am just trying to clarify something I heard and ascertain whether it's a true fact, any degree of it is true, or whether it is completely false.

With that said I was recently told by someone that if you don't pass the background check and DROS process when going to purchase a firearm, you can be immediately arrested when you go to pick up the firearm. The reasoning I was explained to is that since not passing this process means you are ineligible to own a firearm, it is illegal to try and purchase a firearm, therefore you can be arrested for trying to purchase a firearm when you are ineligible to do so by something on your record.

I don't believe this can be 100% true. I mean there are several reasons why a person would not pass this process, and due to the complexity of California's bloated firearms law and legislation, it seems like a person could be ineligible to purchase a firearm without knowing it. For instance, maybe a person could have something questionable on their record, but none of the paperwork they fill out mentions it 100% specifically, and without any answers from our indecipherable law they might try to use the DOJ/DROS process as a litmus test as to whether or not they're eligible to own a firearm. They might figure, "Well I could try and see..."

I'm highly skeptical of what I was told and am about 98% sure it's mostly FUD but I'm asking the pros here at Cal Guns if there's anything even remotely close to this in California gun law. I would like to go back to the person who told me this and set the record straight.

Again, please don't shoot the messenger.

RideIcon
06-04-2009, 3:27 AM
hahahahahaha

EOD Guy
06-04-2009, 6:30 AM
The only time I know that someone was arrested at a gun store was an incident I witnessed at Canyon Sports shortly after they moved to their current location. It involved several gang banger types who were arrested by a half dozen BATF agents and the Martinez police. I believe it more straw purchase issues than DROS, but may have involved both.

hkusp9c
06-04-2009, 8:52 AM
I'm sure if there's a chance of getting arrested when DROSing, the warning would have been a sticky already.

Texas Boy
06-04-2009, 9:03 AM
I had a gun store owner complain to me once about a guy who failed DROS, he called to verify - was told NO WAY this guy could purchase - so he asked what he should do - should he detain him for LE to arrive when he picked up? DOJ said no, just don't give him the gun.

The owner was furious 'cuz the guy had committed a felony by falsifying his application and reasoned that the guy would just keep trying until he slipped through the cracks somewhere. According to the owner, the checks aren't always run due to lack of resources - and in such cases an automatic approval is generated. Don't know if that is true or not, but wouldn't surprise me.

Untamed1972
06-04-2009, 9:21 AM
Perhaps if you KNOWINGLY were a prohibited person, ie felon, parolee, knew you were under a TRO or something like that.

But if something gets put on your background by mistake and you had no knowledge of it then how is that your fault?

Librarian
06-04-2009, 9:48 AM
if you don't pass the background check and DROS process when going to purchase a firearm, you can be immediately arrested when you go to pick up the firearm.

Your caution is appropriate - while that's possible, as you and others have noted failing the check is not always based on correct information.

The Canyon Sports anecdote is suggestive - if some wanted person were to be foolish enough to do FFL paperwork, it would not be inappropriate for LE to be there to collect the miscreant.

ZirconJohn
06-04-2009, 9:50 AM
When a DROS is DENIED by DOJ;

1) DOJ completes a phone call to the Dealer

2) DOJ mails denial letter to the Dealer via USPS

3) When Dealer logs on to DROS Entry System, Dealer is notified of denial before [a] transaction can take place... it's the same letter of notification DOJ sends to dealer via USPS.

4) DOJ mails copy of [same] letter of denial to your local Law Enforcement Office, from where FFL has local dealer licensing.

Untamed1972 is correct; I am certain 'Denial Letters' are checked by local LEO with NCIC , as well as local system for TRO, Parolees, possible even local crimes of misdemeanor violence.

The local Law Enforcement Office will then decide what to do; or what not to do.

fuegoslow
06-04-2009, 10:36 AM
My brother had concerns for some charges as a minor, nothing big. He still had doubts so he went to Turners to ask what he could do. I believe he ended up paying a background check fee through Turners to the CADOJ. This was not a DROS, but to check his eligibility. Came back good to go, so he began his DROS(paid the fee again) for his first handgun shortly thereafter.

Librarian
06-04-2009, 11:12 AM
My brother had concerns for some charges as a minor, nothing big. He still had doubts so he went to Turners to ask what he could do. I believe he ended up paying a background check fee through Turners to the CADOJ. This was not a DROS, but to check his eligibility. Came back good to go, so he began his DROS(paid the fee again) for his first handgun shortly thereafter.

One can file a Personal Firearms Eligibility Check Application (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf), though anecdotally those are not very high priority.

Kokopelli
06-04-2009, 2:48 PM
Picked up my Marlin 795 at big 5 last Sunday. The guy at the counter checked my paperwork and pulled out a printout of people who failed the DROS check. "Good. Your name is not here." He told me.

I checked out the list. Four were flat denied and the fifth for a DMV/license error.

I didn't see any LEOs waiting around for them. :)

hvengel
06-04-2009, 3:36 PM
As others have pointed out arrests on the spot are rare and only take place if the subject is a VERY bad guy. It is also not uncommon for the denials to be false.

For example I asked an FLL once about this and he told me about a case were a customer was denied. The customer appealed and it turned out that he was denied because of his father. He was a Jr. with the clean record and Sr. had a record. It apparently only took a few days for Jr. to get things fixed. But it would not have made any sense for the popo to arrest Jr. since he had not done anything wrong.

But keep in mind that when the Brady Bunch talks about X number of felons being denied a gun Jr. will be included in that total along with every other falsely denied person.

FortCourageArmory
06-04-2009, 9:13 PM
When a DROS is DENIED by DOJ;

1) DOJ completes a phone call to the Dealer

2) DOJ mails denial letter to the Dealer via USPS

3) When Dealer logs on to DROS Entry System, Dealer is notified of denial before [a] transaction can take place... it's the same letter of notification DOJ sends to dealer via USPS.

4) DOJ mails copy of [same] letter of denial to your local Law Enforcement Office, from where FFL has local dealer licensing.

Untamed1972 is correct; I am certain 'Denial Letters' are checked by local LEO with NCIC , as well as local system for TRO, Parolees, possible even local crimes of misdemeanor violence.

The local Law Enforcement Office will then decide what to do; or what not to do.
This exact situation happened in my shop just a few days ago. One of our local detectives (and a steady customer), came in. After our usual back and forth he said he had some "business" to discuss. Now, normally this makes me nervous but he quickly said it wasn't about us doing anything wrong. He said he was alerted to some denials coming out of my shop and wanted to know what we did when we received them. I told him we usually call the customer to let them know and provide them a copy of the DOJ letter. He also wanted to see their 4473's to see if they answered any of the questions falsely. I guess he was angling for a possible falsifying a federal form beef as well. He indicated that when he did the NCIC check that a couple of them had felony convictions and knew they were prohibited persons. So, the local PD does check out those denials......

randy
06-05-2009, 1:34 AM
If you get denied not put on hold the doj has and will go to the persons house and bust them. It generally doesn't happen at the shop because nobody knows when the person will show up.

laguns
06-05-2009, 6:38 PM
Every person who has ever been denied at LA Guns has in fact been arrested on the spot :)

In all seriousness we've had only about a half dozen people rejected in the fifteen years of selling guns and only once did we even get a call from anyone about it. In that case an illegal alien was using a fake CA ID and DOJ wanted a copy of it. In another case a good client was put on hold for almost two years before the actual rejection came, and when it did the handgun was off the approved list and I got stuck dumping the gun out of state. As far as I can remember all other rejected individuals were able to fix what ever issues they had and eventually got their guns.

HowardW56
06-05-2009, 7:03 PM
One can file a Personal Firearms Eligibility Check Application (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf), though anecdotally those are not very high priority.


I believe the option Personal Firearms Eligibility Check process was instituted so People who are not eligible to possess a firearm can be prosecuted for attempting to purchase a firearm...

Prior top this process being available, there was no way for a person to verify that they weather they could or could not purchase a firearm.

Another possibility is a backwards attempt to lay the groundwork for a system similar to Rhode Island's "Blue Card", which is a combination of HSC and eligibility check....

Librarian
06-05-2009, 10:33 PM
I believe the option Personal Firearms Eligibility Check process was instituted so People who are not eligible to possess a firearm can be prosecuted for attempting to purchase a firearm...

Prior top this process being available, there was no way for a person to verify that they weather they could or could not purchase a firearm.


Wouldn't that rather be the option Personal Firearms Eligibility Check process was instituted so People who are not eligible to possess a firearm can NOT be prosecuted for attempting to purchase a firearm... since, by using the check, they are not actually attempting to buy a firearm?

That's my understanding of it.

SJgunguy24
06-06-2009, 7:14 AM
This exact situation happened in my shop just a few days ago. One of our local detectives (and a steady customer), came in. After our usual back and forth he said he had some "business" to discuss. Now, normally this makes me nervous but he quickly said it wasn't about us doing anything wrong. He said he was alerted to some denials coming out of my shop and wanted to know what we did when we received them. I told him we usually call the customer to let them know and provide them a copy of the DOJ letter. He also wanted to see their 4473's to see if they answered any of the questions falsely. I guess he was angling for a possible falsifying a federal form beef as well. He indicated that when he did the NCIC check that a couple of them had felony convictions and knew they were prohibited persons. So, the local PD does check out those denials......


I hope you didn't just hand over the 4473 forms. Steady customer or not he needs a warrant for information like that. Unless of course he's an B.A.T.F.E. agent. When people just hand over stuff without question it inflates the "us against them" attitude. "I'm cop, now you do as I say.......NOW"

laguns
06-06-2009, 5:09 PM
I hope you didn't just hand over the 4473 forms. Steady customer or not he needs a warrant for information like that. Unless of course he's an B.A.T.F.E. agent. When people just hand over stuff without question it inflates the "us against them" attitude. "I'm cop, now you do as I say.......NOW"

FYI, local police, DOJ, and ATF do not need a warrant to inspect our paperwork.