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View Full Version : One person buys and another registers. Possible?


Seed
06-02-2009, 1:40 PM
So I bought a handgun in full from a dealer a little while ago. I want someone else to be the registered owner and DROS it. I never registered it. It's sitting in a safe. When I talked to the shop initially they said no problem. Now they are going backwards and saying I need to DROS it then PPT it later. As far as I can tell, as long as the person doing the DROS has all their paperwork in order, passes background and not a new purchase in 30 days it's a go.

I won't say what store right now but I'm a little frustrated. I would like thoughts and any legalities about what I am doing.

-Seed

Vtec44
06-02-2009, 1:44 PM
Just curious, is it a long gun or a hand gun?

Seed
06-02-2009, 1:55 PM
Handgun

383green
06-02-2009, 1:55 PM
I don't think I understand your question. The only valid reason for somebody else to "be the registered owner and DROS it" is if you want to give or sell the gun to them, making it their gun and not yours any more. In most cases, that requires that a PPT be done at a licensed dealer.

So, what kind of firearm is it, and how long is a "little while ago"? If it was bought since the DROS (for all guns) and registration (for handguns) requirements were put into effect, then you already did those things if you purchased it legally. If you purchased it legally before those requirements went into effect, that's OK, too. If you purchased it illegally, then that's not something that you should be talking about on an open public forum which is known to be monitored by law enforcement agencies.

Seed
06-02-2009, 2:06 PM
Uhh. I didn't purchase anything illegally. I bought it from a gun store and never DROSd it because I was on a 30 day for another firearm. I want the person that I am giving the gun to to be the registered owner. The scenario is simple.

I paid for it and want someone else to be the registered owner.

lorax3
06-02-2009, 2:08 PM
383green is correct, how did you get it home without DROS'ing it? Is a "little while ago" ten years ago?

If you bought it legally(already DROS'ed) then you can just PPT it to someone at any time. If you paid for it and it is still sitting at the dealer then you would need to get a refund and have the "Actual buyer" pay for and DROS it. See below

Uhh. I didn't purchase anything illegally. The "it is sitting in the safe" sentence from the OP is what was confusing. Do you mean the store safe, and not your personal home safe?




From page 3 on the 4473

Important Notices.

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

ke6guj
06-02-2009, 2:13 PM
sounds like the OP paid for a handgun that was no immediately DROSed, maybe layaway'ed becasue of a 1-in-30-day issue, or was a special order, etc.

It appears that the OP wants to sell/give his interest in the handgun to a 3rd party before the OP DROSes it. The 3rd party would DROS it in his name. It should be legal to do so. Heck, Gene bought the rights to some of the Miliptas lowers in order to gain standing so that he could fight CADOJ on the confiscation.

The trick is to do it in a way that does not appear to be a straw sale to the FFL.

383green
06-02-2009, 2:13 PM
Uhh. I didn't purchase anything illegally. I bought it from a gun store and never DROSd it because I was on a 30 day for another firearm. I want the person that I am giving the gun to to be the registered owner. The scenario is simple.

I paid for it and want someone else to be the registered owner.

Ok, that makes more sense. So the safe in question is the one at the dealer's shop, right?

Well, I could be mistaken, but I'd expect that the dealer has already begin the process of the transfer when you bought it, even though they could not yet begin the DROS because of the 30 day timeout. So, I can see how they now consider it to be "your" gun, and they want you to finish the process and then PPT it to the other person later. Given how either CA DOJ or BATFE can dismember them for even an honest paperwork mistake, I can understand their desire to be cautious.

I think you're just going to be stuck doing the DROS yourself and then PPTing it later. The total cost will thus be $35 higher for the PPT (plus maybe more for another lock because of the silly federal safe storage laws), but changing your mind isn't always free.

I don't see anything wrong with changing your mind about the purchase, but I think that another $35 fee and 10-day wait will be unavoidable.

bootcamp
06-02-2009, 2:13 PM
Seed, get a refund if you can, then take the cash and hand it to your friend and have your friend buy and dros the gun.

There is no law against you "gifting" money to your friend. He will be taking those same greenbacks and will be purchasing that gun with his "gifted" money.

Seed
06-02-2009, 2:18 PM
sounds like the OP paid for a handgun that was no immediately DROSed, maybe layaway'ed becasue of a 1-in-30-day issue, or was a special order, etc.

It appears that the OP wants to sell/give his interest in the handgun to a 3rd party before the OP DROSes it. The 3rd party would DROS it in his name. It should be legal to do so. Heck, Gene bought the rights to some of the Miliptas lowers in order to gain standing so that he could fight CADOJ on the confiscation.

The trick is to do it in a way that does not appear to be a straw sale to the FFL.

This is the correct scenario. Sorry If I didn't lay it out clearly.

Seed, get a refund if you can, then take the cash and hand it to your friend and have your friend buy and dros the gun.

There is no law against you "gifting" money to your friend. He will be taking those same greenbacks and will be purchasing that gun with his "gifted" money.

I wish I could but they want to charge me a restocking fee even if the other guy buys it right after?!?!

bootcamp
06-02-2009, 2:24 PM
Please tell me this is not the bay area's favorite fremont store?! I don't see how they could do this. They are a class act and this would be odd of them.

Whoever it is, they are looking for some extra greenbacks either way.

383green
06-02-2009, 2:27 PM
I wish I could but they want to charge me a restocking fee even if the other guy buys it right after?!?!

It sounds to me like this might be less about legality, and more about store policy. So, would that restocking fee be more or less than the added cost of finishing the original transfer and then PPTing it later?

Joe
06-02-2009, 2:29 PM
At this point giving us the shop name would be appropriate and greatly appreciated.

GenLee
06-02-2009, 2:30 PM
Isn't this kind of heading down the "straw purchase" road?

aplinker
06-02-2009, 2:51 PM
Isn't this kind of heading down the "straw purchase" road?

Not at all. As long as the person taking possession is the one filling out the DROS paperwork, nothing else matters.

The money could actually come from nicaraguan drug dealers via wire transfer, as long as the person who is actually taking possession is the person who fills out the 4473.

Seed
06-02-2009, 3:20 PM
Not at all. As long as the person taking possession is the one filling out the DROS paperwork, nothing else matters.

The money could actually come from nicaraguan drug dealers via wire transfer, as long as the person who is actually taking possession is the person who fills out the 4473.

My understanding as well. I think it's now come down to some level of greed and store policy. I'll see if there is anything I can work out with them but for now I think the relationship is jacked.

Glock22Fan
06-02-2009, 3:58 PM
This is the correct scenario. Sorry If I didn't lay it out clearly.



I wish I could but they want to charge me a restocking fee even if the other guy buys it right after?!?!

So, the other guy will have to still pay the dros $35 whether you do or not.

You therefore have two options if the dealer won't let you simply transfer the sale to him.

1) Pay the restocking fee and nullify the deal. Your friend pays the cost of the gun + $35. (note: if the dealer has pi$$ed you off, your friend goes elsewhere for the gun)

2) Your friend gives you the money. You complete the transaction, paying the $35 DROS but no restocking fee. Then you PPT the firearm to your friend. He pays another $35 (and has to wait an extra ten days for the gun).

So, which you pick might depend upon the size of the restocking fee.

Jicko
06-02-2009, 4:03 PM
So I bought a handgun in full from a dealer a little while ago.

If you "bought" the gun, that is a DROS....

foxtrotuniformlima
06-02-2009, 4:08 PM
Why would the dealer care? The commercial side has been satisfied; they have been paid.

dfletcher
06-02-2009, 4:10 PM
Not at all. As long as the person taking possession is the one filling out the DROS paperwork, nothing else matters.

The money could actually come from nicaraguan drug dealers via wire transfer, as long as the person who is actually taking possession is the person who fills out the 4473.

Just a little guesswork on my part, but the scenario given is customer A pays in full for a handgun, but tells the store to not proceed with DROS. So the handgun is sitting in the gun store safe. Then customer A returns with soon to be customer B and customer A tells the gun store owner - he's going to buy it, DROS it in his name.

If I were the gun store owner I'd be pretty confident customer B is OK - after all, the DROS will be in his name & the state will say yea or nea. If I were the gun store owner I would be suspicious of customer A, as in he wants customer B to get DROS'd & hand over the gun to him because he figures he can't pass DROS.

I want to be very, very clear, I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just trying to look at it from the gun store owner's point of view and understanding their concern. The gun store owner may be thinking that customer A has, in an unusual way, initiated his own "straw purchase" as opposed to doing a straw purchase for customer B as the final recipient of the handgun. Telling customer A "you DROS 1st, then PPT" isn't so much a way of scoring $10.00 profit, it's a way of vetting customer A.

I bet if customer A buys the thing and tells the gun store owner he'll do the PPT elsewhere, the gun store owner will say that's fine.

I think the gun store's error in this instance is the initial "OK' to customer A. Was that given by a clerk or the owner? Could be it sounded OK to the gun store at first and then someone's "what could go wrong?" thought process kicked in.

Maybe I'm way off - definitely in the minority I guess.

lorax3
06-02-2009, 5:48 PM
2) Your friend gives you the money. You complete the transaction, paying the $35 DROS but no restocking fee. Then you PPT the firearm to your friend. He pays another $35 (and has to wait an extra ten days for the gun)..

The first part of suggestion #2 would not be legal. You cannon use somone's else money to buy a gun. See my previous post. The original buyer would not be the "actual buyer of this frearm". Granted there would legally be another transaction giving the next owner posesion, but the first transaction would have the buyer committing perjury on the 4473.

Important Notices.

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

Granted this example is implying that Mr. Smith takes possession of the firearm would another legal documented transaction. Although buying a gun with funds other than your own for possession by someone else does not seem legal.

Seed
06-03-2009, 11:58 AM
If you "bought" the gun, that is a DROS....

oh ok sorry. I paid for it. ugh people and their nitpicking.

Joe
06-03-2009, 12:15 PM
What gun store is this? Can you at least PM me and let me know? I'm in your area and want to know if its one I frequent. Thanks

BKinzey
06-03-2009, 12:39 PM
oh ok sorry. I paid for it. ugh people and their nitpicking.

Or you could be happy that people are concerned enough to want to give you correct answers.

If it bothers you enough that some answers are "nitpicking" you are certainly free to figure it out on your own.

DDT
06-03-2009, 2:14 PM
oh ok sorry. I paid for it. ugh people and their nitpicking.

Unfortunately CA law requires nits to be picked. Just save yourself all the hassle and pay the $35 to PPT it to your friend later. Use a different store if you feel the current store isn't serving you in the manner you feel you deserve.

Seed
06-03-2009, 3:36 PM
Or you could be happy that people are concerned enough to want to give you correct answers.

If it bothers you enough that some answers are "nitpicking" you are certainly free to figure it out on your own.

That's not my point. It was clearly stated that I bought it and it wasn't registered. This is a debate of terms and nothing else.

rambo
06-03-2009, 5:14 PM
i think i know whats going on and i have done this several times. i wanted to buy a handgun on election day i was short some cash my dad went with me and paid in full with his credit card i drosed it and picked it up ten days later. second time my dad paid in full for a hand gun and was waiting for his 30 day period to be up and decided he wanted a diffrent gun i went in and drosed it in my name again no problem at all. no one even mentioned it. that was here in sandiego. It seems sandiego is pretty easy going minus maybe turners... hope this helps. i think it would be completly legal. a straw purchase is diffrent very diffrent.

BKinzey
06-03-2009, 6:36 PM
That's not my point. It was clearly stated that I bought it and it wasn't registered. This is a debate of terms and nothing else.

It is also clear that the rest of your post wasn't very clear and that brought doubt upon your entire post.

hkusp9c
06-03-2009, 9:08 PM
I've seen lots of advertisement where the sellers buy guns at cheaper price online and get them shipped to a local FFL and have the buyers DROS under their names.

Seed
06-04-2009, 12:41 AM
i think i know whats going on and i have done this several times. i wanted to buy a handgun on election day i was short some cash my dad went with me and paid in full with his credit card i drosed it and picked it up ten days later. second time my dad paid in full for a hand gun and was waiting for his 30 day period to be up and decided he wanted a diffrent gun i went in and drosed it in my name again no problem at all. no one even mentioned it. that was here in sandiego. It seems sandiego is pretty easy going minus maybe turners... hope this helps. i think it would be completly legal. a straw purchase is diffrent very diffrent.

exact scenario and completely agree.

taloft
06-04-2009, 6:46 AM
It's perfectly legal. As long as the person taking possession is the same one who completed the DROS and 4473, it isn't a straw purchase. Otherwise, it would be impossible to purchase firearms with the intent of gifting them to others. As long as you didn't fill out any paperwork at all, you should be good to go. The problem here is showing intent. I think that dfletcher is correct as far as what the store is probably thinking; However, this would be store policy not law. They are jerking you around. I'd take my friend down to the store and make a stink. That's about all you can do. If they are unwilling to do this, DROS it yourself. Once you have possession, walk out and never return.

bruss01
06-04-2009, 9:58 AM
My reaction is:
When money to purchase the item changes hands, ownership of the item is established. Regardless of where the item is, or who is in it's general vicinity, or who has physical possession of it, it is now the purchaser's property.

When a DROS form is completed for the background check, that establishes who will be taking possession of the firearm in 10 days. Registration of the handgun is performed at the same time, correct?

So it is possible to purchase a gun, thus making it your gun. If the background check is run at some later time (for instance, it was an internet purchase or a layaway) then it is technically yours prior to you having a background check that would enable you to have it in your possession.

If, prior to performing the background/dros, you decide to make a gift of that firearm to someone else, you give it to them by saying "It's all yours". They complete the dros/BG check, and the firearm is registered in their name.

I think that's how it works. I believe some people get confused because most brick and mortar gun stores require the background check before they will even accept money to prevent having to back out a transaction in case it gets held up or denied. That is store policy, not law of the land. This is not how it works for internet sales, which make it obvious that ownership and possession are indeed two different things.

nicki
06-04-2009, 1:09 PM
If you have not done the DROS, you haven't bought the gun.

Don't see why the store won't do it.

The straw sale involves someone buying a gun, then giving it to someone who doesn't do the 4473 or the background check.

The intent of the straw sale is to prevent guns from being sold to people who can't buy guns.

Nicki

M198
06-04-2009, 1:49 PM
I bought a sig mosquito for my girlfriend that DROS'ed the weapon. She provided ID, POR, HSC. All I did was pit it on my credit card. There is nothing illegal about it.

heyeugenio
06-05-2009, 8:13 AM
but I will refrain from doing so unless Seed deems it fair/necessary. I was the other party that would have picked up the firearm.

I think the outstanding issue was that a store employee had already made the representation that what Seed and I were trying to accomplish was completely fine.

Both Seed and I saw no issue with this but we both wanted to make sure as location and timing wasn't the easiest to coordinate. That's neither here nor there at this point but it is what prompted an in-person visit. I thought that an actual face-to-face with an employee would put any doubts at ease.

As luck would have it I found myself relatively close to the shop on Tuesday and I decided that I would drop by to clarify the requirements in advance so that all our ducks would be in a row in hopes of a smooth sale.

I started speaking with Employee A and suddenly another employee, let's call him "Adam Henry", jumps in and asks what was going on. Employee A tries to explain and Adam Henry has a hissy and says there's no way he can even speak with me since OP is not present.

I tried to explain what we were trying to coordinate and Adam Henry immediately became defensive and said, "I'm a previous criminal and I do everything by the book". I chuckled for a half second and he repeated, "I'm not kidding, I am a convict, and I do everything by the book. You're trying to do a straw sale and that's illegal". I never even had the opportunity to fully explain the situation and why I would be DROSing the firearm and that was the response I received.

Without any further input on my end I promptly left the shop and called Seed for a heads-up.

The shop has left quite a bad taste in my mouth - not only because I didn't get to purchase a gun but also more work, effort, time and inconvenience has been the result of one's ignorance.

My sincere apologies to Seed for any inconveniences this has caused but still stand by our thoughts that this should have been a relatively "easy" transaction. As a result, I missed the opportunity to purchase a gun that I've been looking for.

Seed
06-06-2009, 8:36 PM
ok just to update the situation and to be open about it here's the end.

The store involved is Canyon Sports. No doubt they have a bad rep on here and other sources offering public opinion. My few visits there have been positive but this time there is a guy there who well.... I won't name names but he's fully sleeved.

So I went in there today and told him about the situation. I asked him what my options are. He said he would let me get full credit if I bought a different firearm. Fair enough, so I asked about a Sig 229 40 with nights. They didn't have it so I asked him what it would take to get one and how much. He said "what do you want? An elite or what"? I simply stated that selling me an elite as far as I knew was illegal in California so that's not an option. His response:

"Don't ****in tell me what is illegal in my store!!!!" Did I use too many exclamation points? No. The dude yelled at me with customers all around. I responded with "well that's the truth so whatever". I took the return hit and walked out of there. Learning a lesson not to be hasty with a handgun purchase and that I can afford to be selective on who I do business with. I will NEVER do business with them again. Everyone else in the place was cool.

Don't waste your time shopping here. Especially if they want 1100 for a Sig 229 with nights. Yeah right.

-Seed

ke6guj
06-06-2009, 8:54 PM
Fair enough, so I asked about a Sig 229 40 with nights. They didn't have it so I asked him what it would take to get one and how much. He said "what do you want? An elite or what"? I simply stated that as far as I knew the elite was illegal in California so that's not an option. Why would the elite be illegal? I think you may be mistaking illegalness with ability to purchase/transfer due to the Roster. Even though you may not be able to purchase it, it is not an illegal firearm.

His response:

"Don't ****in tell me what is illegal in my store!!!!" Did I use too many exclamation points? No. The dude yelled at me with customers all around. I responded with "well that's the truth so whatever". I took the return hit and walked out of there. Learning a lesson not to be hasty with a handgun purchase and that I can afford to be selective on who I do business with. I will NEVER do business with them again. Everyone else in the place was cool. This guy was a dick. I don't care what his history is.sounds like you took the best option, cut your losses and run.

pullnshoot25
06-06-2009, 9:08 PM
1. If you want to buy a firearm for someone else, there is nothing wrong with that AFAIK.

For instance, little Jimmy just turned 18. You hand him $304.37 and tell him to go buy the first blued 10/22 that he sees.

Did you buy the rifle? Yes.
Is it in your name? No.
Is he a prohibited person? Probably not.
Is it legal? YES!

Same with the handgun.

Remember, you do have the right to remain silent...

Seed
06-06-2009, 10:11 PM
Why would the elite be illegal? I think you may be mistaking illegalness with ability to purchase/transfer due to the Roster. Even though you may not be able to purchase it, it is not an illegal firearm.

The Sig 229 Elite is not on the roster as you stated therefore illegal for him to sell it to me. No confusion here.

ke6guj
06-06-2009, 10:20 PM
I don't think it is on the Roster either, but that does not make it "illegal in CA".

Seed
06-06-2009, 10:37 PM
I don't think it is on the Roster either, but that does not make it "illegal in CA".

When an FFL tells me he can order me an Elite and my response is that would be illegal in CA I think it's pretty clear of what law I am referring too. That's pretty evident in the context of the discussion. Thanks for the education though.

ke6guj
06-06-2009, 10:43 PM
OK. I see you updated how the conversation went and yes, he wouldn't been able to legally transfer you that Elite since it is not Rostered.

Joe
06-09-2009, 8:59 PM
I hate Canyon Sports. Worst gun store I've ever visited, by far. Bunch of dishonest, rude, ***holes working there.