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View Full Version : Adding another lower to a Dros after the 10 day wait


cqbdude
06-02-2009, 11:02 AM
I'm hearing different opinions with regards to this scenario.

Lets say..I PPT a OLL , when I come back to the store after the 10 day waiting period and the PPT was approved , can I add another lower to the Dros?
The 2nd lower can be another PPT or a lower from the store.

gregorylucas
06-02-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm hearing different opinions with regards to this scenario.

Lets say..I PPT a OLL , when I come back to the store after the 10 day waiting period and the PPT was approved , can I add another lower to the Dros?
The 2nd lower can be another PPT or a lower from the store.


I have done this several times with a couple of different FFL's. As I recall the only thing that the FFL needed to do at the onset was write on the Form the number of long guns to be transfered.

Greg

Toolbox X
06-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Yes you can, but you should have told the FFL when you did the DROS that you wanted to transfer 3 long guns, not 1. You can always DROS fewer guns than you specify, but it is not cool to DROS more than you specify.

You can fit up to 3 long guns on one 4473, before the FFL must fill out another 4473. So I always tell my FFL I am going to DROS 3, 6, or 9 rifles, and almost always DROS fewer than that.

CHS
06-02-2009, 12:17 PM
Yes you can, but you should have told the FFL when you did the DROS that you wanted to transfer 3 long guns, not 1. You can always DROS fewer guns than you specify, but it is not cool to DROS more than you specify.


It really doesn't matter. Those numbers are for statistical purposes and all that DROS information is purged by the state after 15 days anyways.


You can fit up to 3 long guns on one 4473, before the FFL must fill out another 4473. So I always tell my FFL I am going to DROS 3, 6, or 9 rifles, and almost always DROS fewer than that.

Wrong.

You can fit 5 guns on one 4473. If you can't fit more you don't have to fill out another 4473, you just have to write the information down on another piece of paper and attach it to the 4473.

You could do 200 long guns and pistols on *ONE* 4473 if you really wanted to (and had that kind of money).

The most I've done for one customer on one 4473 (so far) was 11 receivers.

blackberg
06-02-2009, 1:26 PM
what I was told that an ATF inspector said was to that the 4473 can be modified. the proper way to do it is to photocopy the original 4473, then cross out the original "error" and "correct" the original. Keep both the copy and the corrected original together.

-bb

CHS
06-02-2009, 1:29 PM
what I was told that an ATF inspector said was to that the 4473 can be modified. the proper way to do it is to photocopy the original 4473, then cross out the original "error" and "correct" the original. Keep both the copy and the corrected original together.

-bb

What are you talking about? What error?

fairfaxjim
06-02-2009, 1:37 PM
I know some FFL's will add long guns at the time of pick up. I do not know if they have actually specified a number greater than the original sale on the DROS. The DOJ give the following opinion that once the customer leaves the store, subsequent any subsequent sale of a long gun is a separate transaction and requires a new DROS.
Mr. XXXXX,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) transactions for long gun sales. It is permissible to change the number of long guns on a DROS at the actual time of initiating the purchase. If already submitted, you can a fax a DROS Cancellation or Correction Form to the Bureau of Firearms Denial Review Unit at (916) 227 - 3744 to reflect the correct quantity of long guns. This applies only to the initial time of purchase, i.e., when the 4473 is filled out. Once the customer leaves the store after initiating a purchase, any subsequent sale of a long gun would be considered a separate DROS transaction.

I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887, or via e-mail.


Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Division of Law Enforcement
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

I'm not saying this is correct, or the way things are done, but it is the email expanation that I received.

Toolbox X
06-02-2009, 1:54 PM
I know some FFL's will add long guns at the time of pick up. I do not know if they have actually specified a number greater than the original sale on the DROS. The DOJ give the following opinion that once the customer leaves the store, subsequent any subsequent sale of a long gun is a separate transaction and requires a new DROS.

Mr. XXXXX,

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) transactions for long gun sales. It is permissible to change the number of long guns on a DROS at the actual time of initiating the purchase. If already submitted, you can a fax a DROS Cancellation or Correction Form to the Bureau of Firearms Denial Review Unit at (916) 227 - 3744 to reflect the correct quantity of long guns. This applies only to the initial time of purchase, i.e., when the 4473 is filled out. Once the customer leaves the store after initiating a purchase, any subsequent sale of a long gun would be considered a separate DROS transaction.

I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887, or via e-mail.


Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Division of Law Enforcement
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 486


I'm not saying this is correct, or the way things are done, but it is the email expanation that I received.

That is why you do not want to increase the number of firearms you specified when you first submitted the DROS. Even if you are only buying one, say 3 or 5. That way if you come along another long gun before you pick up the first one, you are good to go.

Increasing the number of firearms on a DROS might be legal, but I know the BATF really doesn't like it.

CHS
06-02-2009, 1:55 PM
Increasing the number of firearms on a DROS might be legal, but I know the BATF really doesn't like it.

The ATF doesn't care about a DROS or how many guns may or may not be on it. The DROS is a state thing. All the BATFE cares about is the 4473.

383green
06-02-2009, 2:01 PM
The most I've done for one customer on one 4473 (so far) was 11 receivers.

Not that it's any of my business, but it wouldn't surprise me if that customer happened to be your GF... ;)

blackberg
06-02-2009, 2:04 PM
What are you talking about? What error?

the quantity and firearms that you are changing.

if only one was listed, you are correcting it to three, so the one is an error

-bb

383green
06-02-2009, 2:08 PM
Swoosh!

That was the sound of bdsmchs' sarcastic joke zipping over your head. :D

Toolbox X
06-02-2009, 2:17 PM
The ATF doesn't care about a DROS or how many guns may or may not be on it. The DROS is a state thing. All the BATFE cares about is the 4473.

Correct, it is the CA DOJ who cares. My mistake.

CHS
06-02-2009, 2:21 PM
the quantity and firearms that you are changing.

if only one was listed, you are correcting it to three, so the one is an error

-bb

Again, not true.

You are confusing the 4473 and the DROS.

The 4473 is the yellow federal booklet that you have to fill out to satisfy the BATFE when doing a dealer transfer of a firearm.

The DROS is the state computerized form that the dealer fills out for you to initiate the background check.

4473 = FEDERAL
DROS = STATE

If you come into my store and I sell you a rifle, you fill out the 4473, then I fill out some parts of the 4473 and start a DROS for you. When you come back in 10 days, I have to finish up the 4473 paperwork and sign it, finalizing the sale. If you want to add, say a lower receiver to that paperwork, I simply write it into the 4473 before signing it and finalizing the sale. There is no error to correct. There is no need for photocopying anything or crossing anything out. It's just added to the 4473 and that's that.

383green
06-02-2009, 2:25 PM
Ah, that makes good sense. Having only been on the customer's side of the counter, I didn't know all of the details about what gets filled out, and when.

ke6guj
06-02-2009, 2:25 PM
. If you want to add, say a lower receiver to that paperwork, I simply write it into the 4473 before signing it and finalizing the sale. There is no error to correct. There is no need for photocopying anything or crossing anything out. It's just added to the 4473 and that's that.that would be the key part. The 4473 is not filled out all at once because of our 10-day wait. The second half of the 4473 is filled out at pickup, and if the FFL adds to it before he signs it, the prohibition against adding firearms after the 4473 is woudn't be violated.

blackberg
06-02-2009, 3:12 PM
that would be the key part. The 4473 is not filled out all at once because of our 10-day wait. The second half of the 4473 is filled out at pickup, and if the FFL adds to it before he signs it, the prohibition against adding firearms after the 4473 is woudn't be violated.

everytime I have bought firearms the section has been filled out, section D I think it is, on the first day.

And what I am thinking of is the electronic version actually, the electronic version asks for the number of firearms and the list of them before you print it out. Any changes will have to be photocopied/crossedout/edit. It cannot be left be blank since it wont let you print it. And once printed you cannot go back and edit it. I taught the electronic 4473 and the yellow 4473 where the same, apparently not

-bb

CHS
06-02-2009, 3:38 PM
everytime I have bought firearms the section has been filled out, section D I think it is, on the first day.


Section D does not have to be filled out until the sale is finalized on the 10th day.

I can sell a lower to someone, start the DROS, and then ignore Section D until they come back 10 days later for a pickup. At that point I could choose a lower, fill in Section D, and then let them take the lower home.

Or I can fill out Section D when they start the paperwork, and add to it any time during the 10 day wait up until the point where the sale is finalized and they walk out the front door with product in hand.

Section D is fluid and the sale is still pending until I fill out Q.30a and Q.33-36. Those are not filled out until the end of the 10-day wait when the customer comes in to take possession of the firearms.

CHS
06-02-2009, 3:38 PM
And what I am thinking of is the electronic version actually, the electronic version asks for the number of firearms and the list of them before you print it out. Any changes will have to be photocopied/crossedout/edit. It cannot be left be blank since it wont let you print it. And once printed you cannot go back and edit it. I taught the electronic 4473 and the yellow 4473 where the same, apparently not


We still do the paper 4473's, and I'm not familiar with the electronic version.

DDT
06-02-2009, 4:06 PM
I have, in fact purchased a firearm and then added an impulse buy of a lower on pickup day. NO additional charge, no additional wait.

Jicko
06-02-2009, 4:10 PM
You cannot increase, but you can decrease the number of firearms when you DROS...

So, always DROS "more".... ie... DROS 5 when you only have 3.... maybe you will get 2 more before the end of the 10 days, or 30 days....

foxtrotuniformlima
06-02-2009, 4:15 PM
:thumbsup: :)

CHS
06-02-2009, 4:35 PM
You cannot increase, but you can decrease the number of firearms when you DROS...

So, always DROS "more".... ie... DROS 5 when you only have 3.... maybe you will get 2 more before the end of the 10 days, or 30 days....

In all reality, that doesn't even really matter.

If you say you're doing 1 long gun on the DROS, and 5 guns end up on the 4473, it's not a big deal as long as the 5 guns are still accounted for.

Like I said, that DROS information gets purged after 15 days anyways.

cqbdude
06-02-2009, 5:16 PM
Again, not true.

You are confusing the 4473 and the DROS.

The 4473 is the yellow federal booklet that you have to fill out to satisfy the BATFE when doing a dealer transfer of a firearm.

The DROS is the state computerized form that the dealer fills out for you to initiate the background check.

4473 = FEDERAL
DROS = STATE

If you come into my store and I sell you a rifle, you fill out the 4473, then I fill out some parts of the 4473 and start a DROS for you. When you come back in 10 days, I have to finish up the 4473 paperwork and sign it, finalizing the sale. If you want to add, say a lower receiver to that paperwork, I simply write it into the 4473 before signing it and finalizing the sale. There is no error to correct. There is no need for photocopying anything or crossing anything out. It's just added to the 4473 and that's that.

Wow..this place is awesome....
I was so surprised how much reply this thread has gotten..

Thank You for all of your input..

The reason I asked the question, is because at one store I was able to add another lower to the 4473 when I came to pick up the initial lower I Dros'd.

Today at a different store, I have a lower that I need to pick up after the 10 day waiting period and I called to ask if I could add another lower and I was told that its not allowed and that is one way to get the store closed by the ATF..

psssniper
06-02-2009, 6:35 PM
This question is somewhat related to the OP and has come up recently with a new FFL

Hypothetically you buy a rifle/shotgun from out of state. You immediately go to your local FFL who will be receiving the gun. You fill out the forms etc and the clock starts. From what I understand you have to wait ten days before you can pick up your gun and you have no more than 30 days to pick it up or else you re-dros. In the early days of OLL when delivery times were uncertain, many of us re-drosed a receiver that didnt arrive in the 30 day window. Ah the good old days :thumbsup:

Recently I have used a new FFL who refused to start dros unless he had the rifle/shotgun in his safe. I was a little put out, but rolled with it figuring he was new and all. I explained that no FFL had ever done that, he said he didn't want to risk his license. Okay no problem, I'm not that impatient and it's his store .......

So the big question is........ Is he right or wrong?

CHS
06-02-2009, 7:08 PM
So the big question is........ Is he right or wrong?

Well, it's his business and he can set the policy however he likes. So, he's not exactly WRONG, but he's not right either.

I do what you explained probably 3 times a week. Someone comes in who's expecting a transfer and starts the paperwork immediately. Sometime within that 10 days the firearm comes in, and we add it to the 4473 when the customer comes back in.

Heh, I've even got a 4473 that's been sitting here for about 2 months for a gun that's backordered 6. The guy started the paperwork and DROS when he ordered the gun, not realizing that it was going to be backordered that long. When it finally comes in, it won't be a big deal. He'll just start a new DROS, but the 4473 stays the same and we'll add the gun when we have it in hand.

383green
06-02-2009, 9:21 PM
Heh,

Your shop sounds really reasonable about this stuff. I need to check it out sometime...

thedrickel
06-02-2009, 9:27 PM
The e-4473 does require all of the gun info when you fill it out. It sucks.

What I want to know is . . . . why can't I put 9999 (the maximum) on EVERY long gun DROS and then just cross it out and put the correct # at time of pickup?

383green
06-02-2009, 9:28 PM
Is there any compulsion to use the e-4473, or is it just a convenience option?

FortCourageArmory
06-02-2009, 9:29 PM
Well, it's his business and he can set the policy however he likes. So, he's not exactly WRONG, but he's not right either.

I do what you explained probably 3 times a week. Someone comes in who's expecting a transfer and starts the paperwork immediately. Sometime within that 10 days the firearm comes in, and we add it to the 4473 when the customer comes back in.

Heh, I've even got a 4473 that's been sitting here for about 2 months for a gun that's backordered 6. The guy started the paperwork and DROS when he ordered the gun, not realizing that it was going to be backordered that long. When it finally comes in, it won't be a big deal. He'll just start a new DROS, but the 4473 stays the same and we'll add the gun when we have it in hand.
When I had my last DOJ audit, this question came up. The DOJ auditor said that I "couldn't DROS air", meaning I couldn't start a DROS until the firearm was present in the store. Not saying he's right or wrong, just that was the "official" take from DOJ's representative. Since then, it's been our policy to wait unitl the firearm is in the store to start DROS. Until I see something in writing from DOJ, it's what we go by. YMMV......

cseabass
06-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Wow..this place is awesome....
I was so surprised how much reply this thread has gotten..

Thank You for all of your input..

The reason I asked the question, is because at one store I was able to add another lower to the 4473 when I came to pick up the initial lower I Dros'd.

Today at a different store, I have a lower that I need to pick up after the 10 day waiting period and I called to ask if I could add another lower and I was told that its not allowed and that is one way to get the store closed by the ATF..

you spoke with me. while that's not quite what i said, you have the gist of it(no agencies were mentioned)

that said, other stores are more than welcome to practice this. but untill we have it in writing from the DOJ, why risk it? i agree with bdsmchs for the most part personally(well, at least how i feel it should be). its one of those things, in this game, you gerneally dont do it unless you have a hell of a legal team and are willing to fight it OR, you have it in writing(for the legal team) OR, you have case law to back it up.


its a CYA thing mainly.

cqbdude
06-03-2009, 9:44 AM
you spoke with me. while that's not quite what i said, you have the gist of it(no agencies were mentioned)

that said, other stores are more than welcome to practice this. but untill we have it in writing from the DOJ, why risk it? i agree with bdsmchs for the most part personally(well, at least how i feel it should be). its one of those things, in this game, you gerneally dont do it unless you have a hell of a legal team and are willing to fight it OR, you have it in writing(for the legal team) OR, you have case law to back it up.


its a CYA thing mainly.

Thanks for posting...I started the thread just to see what is the official ruling on this particular issue..I totally understand that it is up to the ffl how they want to interpret the rules...I just wished it was the same from FFL to FFL.
I guess I will just come by over there today and pick up my lower.:thumbsup:

boxbro
06-03-2009, 10:38 AM
It really doesn't matter. Those numbers are for statistical purposes and all that DROS information is purged by the state after 15 days anyways.

Sorry if I am ignorant here but I have just a few questions.
When you say purged, do you mean destroyed ?
Are you saying there is no record of the sale after 15 days, on a state or federal level, and the only remaining information on the sale is left at the dealer ?
I was always under the impression that the state kept a record of a purchase in case the gun is ever used in a crime, that way they can trace it back to the purchaser.
If the records are "purged" how can they trace anything ?

Toolbox X
06-03-2009, 10:51 AM
The FFL keeps a record, but that's it. Supposedly. DROS info is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. I thought it was 90 days, not 15, but I could be wrong. However, there is reason to believe the DOJ doesn't comply with that destruction of DROS info very well.

fairfaxjim
06-03-2009, 11:01 AM
The FFL keeps a record, but that's it. Supposedly. DROS info is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. I thought it was 90 days, not 15, but I could be wrong. However, there is reason to believe the DOJ doesn't comply with that destruction of DROS info very well.

Don't feel like searching it out at the moment, but pretty much all agencies that have "must be destroyed after use" info have been PROVEN to be in violation. Can't recall any instances where there was any penalty accessed for them ignoring the law either. Govt. agencies like to keep info and data as much as politcians love to spend our money.

CHS
06-03-2009, 11:02 AM
When you say purged, do you mean destroyed ?


Correct. That is what is supposed to happen to all DROS information except regarding handguns, where the DROS is used to register them.


Are you saying there is no record of the sale after 15 days, on a state or federal level, and the only remaining information on the sale is left at the dealer ?


There was never any record created at the federal level to begin with, except for the 4473 which is paper and kept at the dealer.

After the DROS information is purged/destroyed/deleted, then yes, the only record left is the paper one at the dealer.


I was always under the impression that the state kept a record of a purchase in case the gun is ever used in a crime, that way they can trace it back to the purchaser.
If the records are "purged" how can they trace anything ?

A trace is done by the BATFE, not the state, and they start at the manufacturer and go through the books from manufacturer to distributor to dealer ad nauseam until they find out where the gun was supposed to go. This can be a labor intensive and time consuming process.

boxbro
06-03-2009, 1:54 PM
Correct. That is what is supposed to happen to all DROS information except regarding handguns, where the DROS is used to register them.

So technically, at least in CA, all handguns are registered ?
I was under the impression that nothing is "registered" accept for AW's :confused:

ke6guj
06-03-2009, 1:59 PM
So technically, at least in CA, all handguns are registered ?
I was under the impression that nothing is "registered" accept for AW's :confused:it is no secret that there is registration of handguns purchased/transfered/imported into CA. CADOJ even has a form you can send in to get a print out of the firearms registered to you in the AFS.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/AFSPrivateCitizen.pdf

boxbro
06-03-2009, 4:18 PM
it is no secret that there is registration of handguns purchased/transfered/imported into CA. CADOJ even has a form you can send in to get a print out of the firearms registered to you in the AFS.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/AFSPrivateCitizen.pdf

Interesting, I did not know that.
One more reason to move to AZ.
With that said, why would anyone want/need to know what firearms are in their name, shouldn't they already know this ?