PDA

View Full Version : AR's and AK's can only be loaded from the top? Fact check.


BTF/PTM
06-02-2009, 6:15 AM
Someone at work is convinced that, in order to not get arrested for firing your AR or AK that's equipped with a bullet button and is otherwise in accordance with California law, you have to NEVER remove the magazine and load it through the breech like a bolt-action. Anyone know if this is FUD or not?

kenjimatic
06-02-2009, 6:31 AM
show him the calguns flow chart? I believe that the law states that a detachable mag is only considered to be detachable unless you use a tool to remove the mag because I don't think an open mag well is considered to be a detachable mag.

I just got up so I'm not really thinking straight, perhaps another fellow cal gunner can explain it a little more. :D

DA1L0
06-02-2009, 6:40 AM
I call FUD! The only time you need to scissor it open to load is with radlock or prince 50 style locks they kind that have a set screw. This is because once you loosen teh set screw you can manipulate the mag lock with you fingers making it detachable again. The BB requires you to manipulate the mag lock with a tool at all times making it legal to use your tool to remove the "fixed" mag. So go out and shoot it. :)

Requiem
06-02-2009, 7:13 AM
FUD.

Fate
06-02-2009, 7:15 AM
Welcome to 2009. Your friend is still in 2006. ;)

oldschool88
06-02-2009, 7:20 AM
If that makes him feel more comfortable while using his OLL than that is up to him, but as far as legalities go he is wrong. The key word is detachable, not attachable.

elrcastor
06-02-2009, 1:07 PM
Someone at work is convinced that, in order to not get arrested for firing your AR or AK that's equipped with a bullet button and is otherwise in accordance with California law, you have to NEVER remove the magazine and load it through the breech like a bolt-action. Anyone know if this is FUD or not?

:fud:

EBR Works
06-02-2009, 1:09 PM
Over 500 posts here in 18 months? You obviously have not been paying attention.

5hundo
06-02-2009, 1:11 PM
I call FUD! The only time you need to scissor it open to load is with radlock or prince 50 style locks...

Huh? :confused:

Eroland7
06-02-2009, 1:11 PM
Over 500 posts here in 18 months? You obviously have not been paying attention.

+1


:fud:

Nate74
06-02-2009, 1:21 PM
Honestly, I'm a bit cautious about this too. I know a bullet works fine with my bullet button as my "tool" but at the range I usually shoot at, I use a cheap screwdriver with a bright orange handle on it just in case there's ever any doubt about the "requiring a tool" part.

Sidenote: I like saying TOOL as much as possible.

Librarian
06-02-2009, 1:30 PM
Huh? :confused:

I believe Radlock and Prince50 have has a set screws. If you loosen them it, the mag release is in standard config - press with finger, drop mag - the rifle then uses detachable magazines, so any other 'evil feature' on the rifle makes it, in that instant, an unregistered 'assault weapon'. (Logically, with these it's 'use a tool, make assault weapon, use finger to drop mag'; with bullet button it is always 'use tool to drop mag')

[ fixed - thanks, especially for the pix! ]

This is a Very Bad Thing.

Therefore, with that kind of set up, one does not reload by dropping the mag.

Vtec44
06-02-2009, 1:35 PM
Yep, top load only when it's a Radlock or Prince50, or a Bushmaster Carbon lower receiver. The bullet button allows you to drop the mag by using a tool, so by definition it is not a detachable magazine. There is no law requiring the magazine has to be permanently attached.

aplinker
06-02-2009, 1:43 PM
Raddlocks are all BB's and do not require top loading.

I believe Radlock and Prince50 have set screws. If you loosen them, the mag release is in standard config - press with finger, drop mag - the rifle then uses detachable magazines, so any other 'evil feature' on the rifle makes it, in that instant, an unregistered 'assault weapon'. (Logically, with these it's 'use a tool, make assault weapon, use finger to drop mag'; with bullet button it is always 'use tool to drop mag')

This is a Very Bad Thing.

Therefore, with that kind of set up, one does not reload by dropping the mag.

Vtec44
06-02-2009, 1:52 PM
Raddlocks are all BB's and do not require top loading.

This is my understanding, once you unscrew out the screw it becomes a standard mag release button which is not legal in CA.

http://www.raddlock.com/raddlock_product/ar_raddlock/p2_animate.gif




Bullet button, which requires a tool all the time.
http://www.riflegear.com/howto/raddlock/p1_animate.gif

BONECUTTER
06-02-2009, 1:53 PM
The only time you need to scissor it open to load is with radlock or prince 50 style locks they kind that have a set screw.

Wrong

I believe Radlock and Prince50 have set screws. If you loosen them, the mag release is in standard config - press with finger, drop mag - the rifle then uses detachable magazines, so any other 'evil feature' on the rifle makes it, in that instant, an unregistered 'assault weapon'

Wrong

Yep, top load only when it's a Radlock or Prince50

Wrong

Raddlock requires a tool to drop and mag and works just like a bullet button with no top loading required.

Is it any wonder why people are still confused when people who don't know and have never seen/used the stuff speak like they know. You are not helping the cause.

BONECUTTER
06-02-2009, 1:55 PM
This is my understanding, once you unscrew out the screw it becomes a standard mag release button which is not legal in CA.

Bullet button, which requires a tool all the time.
http://www.riflegear.com/howto/raddlock/p1_animate.gif

This is a raddlock and requires a tool......just like a bullet button.

You only unscrew it out of state or for use with rimfire uppers. Screwed in it works just like a bullet button.

Vtec44
06-02-2009, 2:00 PM
I guess I should rephrase it to that do not unscrew the Radlock to return it into the original mag release button and load it that way, like the Prince50. I put a Radlock on my buddy's gun a couple of weeks ago, didn't even know that it also acts like a BB until just now. DOH!

5hundo
06-02-2009, 2:04 PM
I believe Radlock and Prince50 have set screws. If you loosen them, the mag release is in standard config - press with finger, drop mag - the rifle then uses detachable magazines, so any other 'evil feature' on the rifle makes it, in that instant, an unregistered 'assault weapon'. (Logically, with these it's 'use a tool, make assault weapon, use finger to drop mag'; with bullet button it is always 'use tool to drop mag')

This is a Very Bad Thing.

Therefore, with that kind of set up, one does not reload by dropping the mag.

:fud:

:bofud:

aplinker
06-02-2009, 2:07 PM
:fud:

:bofud:

not true... he's absolutely correct about the Prince50. If one were to loosen a Raddlock, it also would be an AW.


I guess I should rephrase it to that do not unscrew the Radlock to return it into the original mag release button and load it that way, like the Prince50. I put a Radlock on my buddy's gun a couple of weeks ago, didn't even know that it also acts like a BB until just now. DOH!

The best way to think of the Raddlock is as a hybrid P50/BB. When screwed in it's just like a BB, when backed out, it's just a regular mag release.

dirtykoala
06-02-2009, 2:26 PM
i was at a gun shop where i over heard the shop owner tell someone that was picking up an AR that its a grey area if you drop your mag using a bullet button at the range. i think this thought process is what will be getting people in trouble. im pretty sure its not a grey area at all, and when you use a bullet button you are disassembling your weapon with a tool. i see dropping your mag with a bullet button no different than un-hinging your rear take-down pin as far as the law reads.

Librarian
06-02-2009, 2:29 PM
:fud:

:bofud:

Being wrong, as I was, is not FUD.

5hundo
06-02-2009, 2:33 PM
not true... he's absolutely correct about the Prince50.


If you look at my previous post (post #9 on this topic) you'll see that I had highlighted "radlock", which is the part of his reply that I had the problem with... :thumbsup:

ohsmily
06-02-2009, 2:55 PM
My contribution:

:banghead:


;)

shark92651
06-02-2009, 3:05 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3590777698_96c8f99c63_o.jpg

subse7en
06-02-2009, 3:19 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

ohsmily
06-02-2009, 3:23 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Hey, that horse has been beaten enough. Leave him alone. ;)

ro442173
06-02-2009, 3:26 PM
Dude is behind in the times, that's all.

dirtykoala
06-02-2009, 3:28 PM
Dude is behind in the times, that's all.

someone should take him out
:18:

nicoroshi
06-02-2009, 3:34 PM
Dude is behind in the times, that's all.

I agree.
Spreading the knowledge (correct, and current information regarding this) is more productive than condemning those who may be a little behind in the times.
I actually was talking about BB with a gun shop owner, and he was sure I was creating an AW, and wanted nothing to do with it (about 5-6 months ago).
After bringing him a copy of the calguns flowchart along with the Sacramento PD memo, and a few other nice pieces of information available on this site he's now gotten himself a manufacturer's license to build 100 (CA legal) ARs a year.
:)
Spreading the BRD is satisfying.:13:

ro442173
06-02-2009, 3:45 PM
I hate it when people at the gun shop are behind in the times.

After the Obamanation, it took some time for me to convince this gun shop owner to let me bring in two stripped lowers from out of state. He was convinced that it was illegal. This was from a gun shop owner!

Or the time when this guy at the range, who was very knowledgeable in firearms, told me that you can't transfer lowers without a BB (not even stripped). I had respect for the guy so I didn't argue.

There's a lot of older gun owners out there who are out of tune with the net. Once in awhile I'll run into guys who are not aware of Heller or Nordyke or of the current stuff going on. Not me, I check sites like the NRA-ILA and Guns News everyday just to get some insight on what's going on around the country.

I think Tom Gresham's Gun Talk is also awesome.

aplinker
06-02-2009, 4:10 PM
I don't mind if dudes in the gun shop are behind the times, I just mind when they speak FUD as authority.

yock
06-02-2009, 4:47 PM
Just an insight:
Instead of commenting with beating horses or taking guys out and...

Why don't you guys just give the guy the info he was looking for and go on to another thread. I don't know if its just me or what but some of the members that have been here longer are hard on some of the newer guy about what they are asking from your knowledge, or is this some kind of we don't like the new guys thing?

EBR Works
06-02-2009, 5:16 PM
If he takes the time to read through this thread in detail and now understands the compliance requirements, he's got the info he asked for.

SJgunguy24
06-02-2009, 5:48 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3590777698_96c8f99c63_o.jpg

Now thats funny:rofl2:

sreiter
06-02-2009, 5:57 PM
whats the rifle that has a plastic mag that sits on top of a upper, and the amo is feed from the top ?

SJgunguy24
06-02-2009, 6:53 PM
whats the rifle that has a plastic mag that sits on top of a upper, and the amo is feed from the top ?

Thats the AR57 upper, unless your talking about a Calico with the helical type mags.

sreiter
06-02-2009, 7:07 PM
Thats the AR57 upper, unless your talking about a Calico with the helical type mags.

thats it thanks -

lol - wonder if that qualifies as top loading

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/images/flattop57a.jpg

SJgunguy24
06-02-2009, 7:58 PM
thats it thanks -

lol - wonder if that qualifies as top loading

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/images/flattop57a.jpg

Still needs 10 round max mag and a BB, be kinda tough to say i've had these mags since 99. When were those invented?

ro442173
06-02-2009, 8:01 PM
thats it thanks -

lol - wonder if that qualifies as top loading

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/images/flattop57a.jpg

Damn, that's another thing I gotta buy.

Amacias805
06-02-2009, 9:05 PM
Still needs 10 round max mag and a BB, be kinda tough to say i've had these mags since 99. When were those invented?

the upper itself wasn't available to the public pre-99.... but mags were available prior, so its possible that one could've bought the mag, before the ban

jman11
06-02-2009, 10:04 PM
:fud: FUD

Linus
06-02-2009, 11:08 PM
Two steps forward five steps back...
:beatdeadhorse5:

SnipeShot
06-02-2009, 11:17 PM
I was told that too... I was looking at an AR15 and the shop said it was CA legal because it was top loader which I thought was odd. I tried to explain the BB but he said you cant have that and a grip.

BTW on the BB who makes a good one so I can put a grip on my WASR? I would like one where I can convert back to the quick release if I move out of state is this something that is possible?

EBR Works
06-03-2009, 6:02 AM
BTW on the BB who makes a good one so I can put a grip on my WASR? I would like one where I can convert back to the quick release if I move out of state is this something that is possible?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176326

HkUSP45
06-03-2009, 8:07 AM
Someone call PETA. They killed the horse.

Hey, that horse has been beaten enough. Leave him alone. ;)