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maxicon
10-15-2005, 11:49 AM
I got a mailing from the ACLU the other day, asking me to join and contribute some $$.

Now, I actually like the ACLU pretty well, since they have a pretty libertarian agenda, but their support for the 2nd Amendment is poor*, so I make it a point not to support them.

Instead of ripping it up like I usually do with solicitations, I wrote on it:

"No 2nd Amendment Support?
No ACLU Support!"

and sent it back to them.

I don't have much hope it will make any difference, but it's something. If anybody else gets these, think about doing something similar.

max

* from http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25

We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration.

esskay
10-15-2005, 4:43 PM
Whenever I receive prepaid envelopes from organizations that I don't like, I always think about mailing them back with an envelope full of lead shot...

buddyRoland
10-15-2005, 6:13 PM
ACLU is way far left of my moderate views. As an NRA member they can't get my support. I don't agree with all of the NRA's political views but the NRA support handgun rights, so do I. Any ACLU membership that come to my home will get trashed.

maxicon
10-16-2005, 9:10 AM
ACLU is way far left of my moderate views. As an NRA member they can't get my support. I don't agree with all of the NRA's political views but the NRA support handgun rights, so do I. Any ACLU membership that come to my home will get trashed.

I also have problems with some of the NRA's political leanings, but I support them anyway.

This is a problem with many political support orgs today. I support several moderate environmental groups, despite the fact that they mostly support left-wing politicians, because I believe in what they do.

The difference is that they don't have anti 2nd Amendment stances, like the ACLU does, and this is why I don't support the ACLU, who otherwise are strong supporters of the Bill of Rights.

max

SkyStorm82
10-16-2005, 11:32 AM
I also have problems with some of the NRA's political leanings, but I support them anyway.

This is a problem with many political support orgs today. I support several moderate environmental groups, despite the fact that they mostly support left-wing politicians, because I believe in what they do.

The difference is that they don't have anti 2nd Amendment stances, like the ACLU does, and this is why I don't support the ACLU, who otherwise are strong supporters of the Bill of Rights.

max


Have they ever said why they don't support the 2nd Amendment?

82a1
10-16-2005, 12:13 PM
The ACLU is the absolute LAST organization I would ever support. Some of my Democrat friends at work, who are members of the ACLU, believe that all firearms (with the exception of some "hunting rifles":confused: ) should be banned. They claim the 2nd Amendment "does not guarantee an individual right to keep and bear arms," which to me is a bunch of BS. I've found it's completely futile to try and convince them of the importance of the 2nd Amendment because they've been so brainwashed by organizations like the ACLU and VPC.

Silverback
10-16-2005, 1:18 PM
Whenever I receive prepaid envelopes from organizations that I don't like, I always think about mailing them back with an envelope full of lead shot...


I usually fill it with junk mail. Just to consume some of their money!:D

C.G.
10-16-2005, 1:30 PM
I usually fill it with junk mail. Just to consume some of their money!:D

I think that is called recycling.:D

Librarian
10-16-2005, 1:41 PM
Whenever I receive prepaid envelopes from organizations that I don't like, I always think about mailing them back with an envelope full of lead shot... No point in doing that any more - post office can just throw away the overweight stuff. the Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_356.html):According to rule 917.243(b) in the Domestic Mail Manual, when a business reply card is "improperly used as a label"--e.g., when it's affixed to a brick--the item so labeled may be treated as "waste." That means the post office can heave it into the trash without further ado. Your inclination is a little less drastic; if you put in just a little, so it's 4 or 5 ounces, maybe...

I've always favored putting someone else's junk in the reply envelopes; uses their funds, requires someone to open them, induces confusion and waste of time/resources. Much fun is had by all. The shot might be fun, but maybe BBs will fall out and bounce around everywhere? I think one would have to put in a cardboard liner so the envelope would not rip open in the USPS process.

maxicon
10-16-2005, 2:17 PM
Have they ever said why they don't support the 2nd Amendment?

Not specifically, beyond their bogus interpretation quoted in the first message. I believe it's because they are an essentially left-wing organization, rather than libertarian.

In general, the ACLU is silent on the 2nd Amendment, probably because it's so hard to reconcile their stance with their otherwise solid support of the Bill of Rights.

I usually fill it with junk mail. Just to consume some of their money!

Writing a reply on it and sending it back is similar, except there's some chance that someone will get the message, particularly if enough people send the same message. It's a slim chance, I'll admit.

The ACLU is the absolute LAST organization I would ever support. Some of my Democrat friends at work, who are members of the ACLU, believe that all firearms (with the exception of some "hunting rifles" ) should be banned. They claim the 2nd Amendment "does not guarantee an individual right to keep and bear arms," which to me is a bunch of BS. I've found it's completely futile to try and convince them of the importance of the 2nd Amendment because they've been so brainwashed by organizations like the ACLU and VPC.

This is the same reason some of my liberal gun-owning friends justify not supporting the NRA. For me, it's the goal that counts, not the other members. The ACLU supports the Bill of Rights in general, with the exception of the 2nd Amendment, and that's a good thing to support, in my book. It's that one little omission that makes me unable to support them.

max

lazyman
10-16-2005, 4:33 PM
ACLU= American Criminal Liberties Union;)

colossians323
10-16-2005, 5:14 PM
I got a mailing from the ACLU the other day, asking me to join and contribute some $$.

Now, I actually like the ACLU pretty well, since they have a pretty libertarian agenda, but their support for the 2nd Amendment is poor*, so I make it a point not to support them.

Instead of ripping it up like I usually do with solicitations, I wrote on it:

"No 2nd Amendment Support?
No ACLU Support!"

and sent it back to them.

I don't have much hope it will make any difference, but it's something. If anybody else gets these, think about doing something similar.

max

* from http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25

We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration.

Libertrian agenda?
I have never heard anyone ever compare Marxism with Libertarians.
Their Agenda is very close to what Karl Marx first conceived, or what Orwell prophetically wrote about in Animal Farm.
I don't care what their web site says, their law suits speak loud and clear.
They are pro big Government, which is opposite of Libertarians.
They want the Government regulating Religion, but want to encourage twelve year olds to have sex.
They are anti-gun, and yet want to create a special class of peoples because of how they choose to engage in sex.
When it comes to the military and police, they typically land on the side of the criminal, or terrorist nation.
Their sole reason for existence is to expedite the ruination of the USA, and they are achiving this by leaps and bounds with the judicial actiivists currently on most benches.
I am peplexed on why you think they are in line with libertarians by philosophy.

CraigC
10-16-2005, 8:35 PM
The ACLU isn't libertarian, it's downright communist.

82a1
10-16-2005, 9:29 PM
Speaking of the Libertarian Party, have any of you ever heard of the Penn & Teller Show (aka BS)? It's an awesome show that exposes the BS of groups like animal rights nuts (PETA), religious nuts, environmental freaks, and other organizations and freaks commonly accepted by many Americans. I have their beginning seasons on DVD and watch them whenever I need a laugh. Anyway, I was reading an interview of Penn & Teller, and they claim to be Libertarians, so I assume they are pro-gun. Wouldn't it be cool if they had an episode that exposed the BS of groups like the VPC and ACLU and put us gun owners in a positive light? It probably would never make it to TV, but we can always dream.:rolleyes:

maxicon
10-16-2005, 11:27 PM
Libertrian agenda?
I have never heard anyone ever compare Marxism with Libertarians.
Their Agenda is very close to what Karl Marx first conceived, or what Orwell prophetically wrote about in Animal Farm.

Sorry, I don't see it. I see very little ACLU involvement in, say, attempting to undermine capitalism, or creating a classless society where the workers own the means of production.

Animal Farm refers to the totalitarian form of Communism (which is what we mostly call Communism today), which is quite different from what Marx envisioned in his worker's paradise. I'm not sure I'd call it prophetic, since it was modeled on actual events and people, but it was certainly accurate enough as an allegory.

Maybe you have some specific examples where they're promoting Marxism, either the theoretical or real-world versions.

I don't care what their web site says, their law suits speak loud and clear.
They are pro big Government, which is opposite of Libertarians.

Again, I don't see this, and big government is not exactly a Marxist agenda. I see them supporting individual rights over government rights. Maybe I'm not seeing the right cases they're arguing.

They want the Government regulating Religion, but want to encourage twelve year olds to have sex.

Actually, they want the government out of religion, which is very libertarian. If you have cites for the encouraging underage sex, I'd be interested in those. FWIW, some libertarians also support the rights of minors to have sex, which shows a flaw in taking the libertarian philosophy too far, just like with any philosophy.

They are anti-gun, and yet want to create a special class of peoples because of how they choose to engage in sex.

As I've said, the anti-gun stance is a serious hole in their Constitutionally-based rights approach. Assuming you're talking about gay rights, I believe they're arguing that they should have the same rights as everyone else, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

When it comes to the military and police, they typically land on the side of the criminal, or terrorist nation.

It's far more likely for the rights of the individual to be infringed than the rights of the military or police. The military and police don't really need an external defender of their rights, so it's only logical that the ACLU would take the opposite side.

Their sole reason for existence is to expedite the ruination of the USA, and they are achiving this by leaps and bounds with the judicial actiivists currently on most benches.

Well, we'll just have to disagree on this, I guess. I believe in many of the things they support - they have done much over the years supporting freedom of speech and separation of church and state.

I am peplexed on why you think they are in line with libertarians by philosophy.

Because they support individual rights over government control. I think they go too far in some areas (like criminal rights and affirmative action), not far enough in others (like the war on drugs), and are dead wrong in some (like their take on the 2nd Amendment), but the cornerstones of their philosophy are freedom of speech, separation of church and state, and a personal right to privacy.

Many libertarians disagree with them because of their support for such things as affirmative action and their lack of support for gun rights, but overall, there's a good bit of overlap between the groups' philosophies.

max

Mssr. Eleganté
10-17-2005, 12:44 AM
82A1 wrote:
Wouldn't it be cool if they had an episode that exposed the BS of groups like the VPC and ACLU and put us gun owners in a positive light? It probably would never make it to TV, but we can always dream

Penn and Teller DID do an episode of Bxxx Sxxx about gun control. It was pretty cool. I think it was from the latest season. At the time, someone on a gun forum posted a link to where you could watch the episode online. Maybe somebody here still has the link.

82a1
10-17-2005, 9:25 AM
82A1 wrote:


Penn and Teller DID do an episode of Bxxx Sxxx about gun control. It was pretty cool. I think it was from the latest season. At the time, someone on a gun forum posted a link to where you could watch the episode online. Maybe somebody here still has the link.

Cool! I don't have HBO, so I always have to wait til their shows come out on DVD. Finally, we have some people from TV talking some sense into those gun-control idiots. Can't wait til their third season comes out on DVD.:)

shecky
10-17-2005, 9:36 AM
The ACLU isn't libertarian, it's downright communist.

And they skin puppies alive just for fun, too.

Charliegone
10-17-2005, 11:06 AM
If the aclu was more supportive of gun rights, then maybe I would support their cause, still their support for groups like NAMBLA, kind of has me wondering what they are trying to accomplish. I'm a libertarian/centrist, I have no problem with some of the things they choose to defend like the government not being able to keep you in custody without charging you with any thing. Major Bill of rights violation there... If I remember correctly, the ACLU had on their website their stance on gun control, but now it seems that they took it away? I've also heard that Gary Kleck, the person who has written many books on why gun control doesn't work, is a card carrying ACLU member...

maxicon
10-17-2005, 1:41 PM
I don't think the ACLU supports NAMBLA's goals - nor do they disagree with NAMBLA's goals. What the ACLU supports (as far as I know) is NAMBLA's right to have opinions and goals and a voice, and to be treated fairly, as any other group.

I believe this is the case. They support NAMBLA's 1st Amendment rights, not their goals per se. As Hunter Thompson once said - "Even a werewolf deserves a lawyer".

If I remember correctly, the ACLU had on their website their stance on gun control, but now it seems that they took it away?

It's there, but you have to search for it. Here's the official stance:
http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=9621&c=25

It's not very supportable logically, and I'm sure it makes some of their lawyers uncomfortable, to claim that this one item of the Bill of Rights is about state's rights, not personal rights.

max

ldivinag
10-18-2005, 7:43 PM
Cool! I don't have HBO, so I always have to wait til their shows come out on DVD.

pssst...

the P&T BS show is on SHO... ;)

btw, it was a great episode. as usual, they made the anti look like a doofus...

82a1
10-22-2005, 9:37 PM
pssst...

the P&T BS show is on SHO... ;)

btw, it was a great episode. as usual, they made the anti look like a doofus...

Thanks ldivinag. Unfortunately, I don't have Showtime either, so I'm just gonna have to wait til Penn and Teller's third season comes out on DVD. :)