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Kestryll
03-21-2005, 5:47 PM
Got a fun one.
I stopped off on the way home tonight at the little 'Mom and Pop' store down the street to grab a soda and was talking to the owner about my trip to Kern County this weekend to go shooting. He asked where I went because he wanted to shoot his rifle and the indoor ranges won't allow rifles. I told him and mentioned Angeles Shooting Range to him.
Then being the hobbyist that I am I asked him 'what do you have?'. He said he had an SKS that he bought a long time ago and hasn't shot in years and proceeded to describe it.
"It's an SKS with the swinging knife on the front and I think I have an extra magazine for it." Whoops, small jingle of the alarm bells in the brain. I asked, 'Extra magazine? SKS' have a fixed 10 round magazine that hinges open." He answers "No, mine has a magazine that comes out." Oh boy, major mental alarm. So I described how an AK magazine is removed and he said "That's it." Damn, I get to be the bearer of bad news. I told him that those were banned in 1997 and not to take it to a range where he could get in trouble. He is going to bring it in to the store in the back tomorrow for me to look at to verify that it is an SKS-D.
Now for the questions. If it is a D what are his options? I told him I thought that the best he could do to stay legal was to get it out of State to either store or sell and that I would check to see if there were any other legal options.
So is he hosed or is there some other recourse open to him?
Thanks.

Kestryll
03-21-2005, 5:47 PM
Got a fun one.
I stopped off on the way home tonight at the little 'Mom and Pop' store down the street to grab a soda and was talking to the owner about my trip to Kern County this weekend to go shooting. He asked where I went because he wanted to shoot his rifle and the indoor ranges won't allow rifles. I told him and mentioned Angeles Shooting Range to him.
Then being the hobbyist that I am I asked him 'what do you have?'. He said he had an SKS that he bought a long time ago and hasn't shot in years and proceeded to describe it.
"It's an SKS with the swinging knife on the front and I think I have an extra magazine for it." Whoops, small jingle of the alarm bells in the brain. I asked, 'Extra magazine? SKS' have a fixed 10 round magazine that hinges open." He answers "No, mine has a magazine that comes out." Oh boy, major mental alarm. So I described how an AK magazine is removed and he said "That's it." Damn, I get to be the bearer of bad news. I told him that those were banned in 1997 and not to take it to a range where he could get in trouble. He is going to bring it in to the store in the back tomorrow for me to look at to verify that it is an SKS-D.
Now for the questions. If it is a D what are his options? I told him I thought that the best he could do to stay legal was to get it out of State to either store or sell and that I would check to see if there were any other legal options.
So is he hosed or is there some other recourse open to him?
Thanks.

Mike Searson
03-21-2005, 6:32 PM
I THINK(always a dangerous proposition)he can convert it back to a CAL version by changing the stock/magazine.

Maybe by buying a takeoff stock from a milsurp rifle or something...then he could sell the stock from his existing rifle to a Freestater.

bwiese
03-22-2005, 9:35 AM
I believe Mike's right in practice.
I too also believe that if he converted it to fixed-mag status he'd be OK.

While the "SKS with detachable magazine" is a Roberti-Roos AWCA '89 'by name' guns it nevertheless is really 'by feature' because of the generic description. There are other paragraphs describing SKS Sporters (italic text mine):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Notwithstanding paragraph (11) of subdivision (a) of Section 12276, (basic SKS w/detachable mag in orig Roberti-Roos list of 50+ guns) an "SKS rifle" under this section means all SKS rifles commonly referred to as "SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine and imported into this state and sold by a licensed gun dealer, or otherwise lawfully possessed in this state by a resident of this state who is not a licensed gun dealer, between January 1, 1992, and December 19, 1997. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And while I rail here about edge conditions w/cops+DAs, if you have a PD encounter and an SKS is found WITHOUT a detachable magazine, there won't be any quibbling.

SKSes from Norinco/ChinaSports etc were prob brought in with both fixed and detachable mags and no one knows/tracked which S/Ns were which. And many were prob modded by gunshops in late 80s too.

Now, do note there's also a small lot of SKS w/detachable magazines that DO NOT take AK47 magazines(!!)

Otherwise, this SKS is supposed to end up in the buyback program:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">this section.
(f)(1) Any person, firm, company, or corporation that is in possession of an SKS rifle shall do one of the following on or before January 1, 2000:
(A) Relinquish the SKS rifle to the Department of Justice pursuant to subdivision (h).
(B) Relinquish the SKS rifle to a law enforcement agency pursuant to Section 12288.
(C) Dispose of the SKS rifle as permitted by Section 12285.
(2) Any person who has obtained title to an SKS rifle by bequest or intestate succession shall be required to comply with subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) of this subdivision unless he or she otherwise complies with paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12285.
(3) Any SKS rifle relinquished to the department pursuant to this subdivision shall be in a manner prescribed by the department.
(4) The department shall conduct a public education and notification program as described in Section 12289, commencing no later than January 1, 1999.
(g) Any person who complies with subdivision (f) shall be exempt from the prohibitions set forth in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 12280 for those acts by that person associated with complying with the requirements of subdivision (f).
(h)(1) The department shall purchase any SKS rifle relinquished pursuant to subdivision (f) from funds appropriated for this purpose by the act amending this section in the 1997-98 Regular Session of the Legislature or by subsequent budget acts or other legislation. The department shall adopt regulations for this purchase program that include, but are not limited to, the manner of delivery, the reimbursement to be paid, and the manner in which persons shall be informed of the state purchase program.
(2) Any person who relinquished possession of an SKS rifle to a law enforcement agency pursuant to Section 12288 prior to the effective date of the purchase program set forth in paragraph (1) shall be eligible to be reimbursed from the purchase program. The procedures for reimbursement pursuant to this paragraph shall be part of the regulations adopted by the department pursuant to paragraph (1).
(i) Notwithstanding paragraph (11) of subdivision (a) of Section 12276, an "SKS rifle" under this section means all SKS rifles commonly referred to as "SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine and imported into this state and sold by a licensed gun dealer, or otherwise lawfully possessed in this state by a resident of this state who is not a licensed gun dealer, between January 1, 1992, and December 19, 1997.
(j) Failure to comply with subdivision (f) is a public offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a county jail, not exceeding one year.
(k) In addition to the regulations required pursuant to subdivision (h), emergency regulations for the purchase program described in subdivision (h) shall be adopted pursuant to Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can tell the way this was written the gov't & legislature "didn't know their arse from page 10".

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Mike Searson
03-22-2005, 9:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, do note there's also a small lot of SKS w/detachable magazines that DO NOT take AK47 magazines(!!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of those were US conversions (Bubba Guns)

The ones like this are Ramline or Choate type stocks and the magazines look like AK Magazines, only made of zytel or something similar.

Real AK mags will not fit these rifles.
One of my closest friends at the time made a small pile of money selling these in Florida. I could never figure the attraction (black folding stock, detachable magazine, pistol grip, no bayonet, muzzle brake, etc)especially when for the same amount of money you could buy a much better weapon...he was selling these $500-$600.

I guess there's an *** for every seat.

bwiese
03-22-2005, 10:15 AM
Hi Mike,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... especially when for the same amount of money you could buy a much better weapon... he was selling these $500-$600.

I guess there's an *** for every seat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. An SKS for $159 is great (even paying more if Russian SKS w/chromed bore).

As I recall, tricked out SKS were going for $300+ in 1990s when, for $400ish you could get a great Hungarian SA85M AK (the nicely finished one w/blond wood). No brainer - take the AK anytime...

I think some of those SKS abominations were "just because it was there" http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Kestryll
03-22-2005, 10:15 AM
Ahh! A third option!
Thanks guys, this is good to hear. I was not happy with the idea of telling him he had to get rid of it.
So the conversion to fixed magazine is a stock change and reinstalling a fixed magazine? Sounds way too simple. Now I'm scared.....

bwiese
03-22-2005, 10:29 AM
Kestryll..

What Mike & I are saying (and this is contrary to my usual guidance) is that CA SKS situation is so screwed up that if he gets a regular SKS stock back on it along w/orig 10rd fixed mag he should be OK, no one will ever know the difference. This is practical info, not necessarily legally correct - but again, SKS situation is totally screwed up in CA.

I'd also put a orig wood SKS stock on it. Some SKSes may have been imported as curio/relics and, it appears, they really need to stay in the shape in which they were imported. This is not a big ATF violation (worst case: lose rifle, and no Feds are ever looking at SKSes).

If that's too much grief for him, he can sell it out of state and buy a great Yugo SKS for $170ish.


Bill W
San Jose

Charliegone
03-22-2005, 4:30 PM
You know I've seen some yugo sks (w/ grenade attachment removed and has muzzlebreak instead) on this website on sale for $180.00 bucks.

Rascal
03-22-2005, 7:32 PM
Bill, Chinese SKS's are not C&R, so he has to comply with 922(r). With no bayonet and a fixed magazine, he is in compliance, Federally and also in compliance with SB23, since he would no longer have a "SKS with detatchable magazine".
On more point, After the 89 ban many Chinese SKS's were imported into the country with fixed magazines and no bayonets and were also called "Sporters", so I don't see how they could just use the word "Sporter" to classify an SKS as an illegal weapon.
It has to have the detatchable magazine to be illegal.

Kestryll, Go to Survivors SKS board and ask around for a Chinese stock. They can be had for very little money, in fact I'm sure that most of the guys over there would trade a excellent condition stock for his stock.

gidddy169
03-22-2005, 8:18 PM
I don't think it would be as simple as reinstalling a fixed magazine and a stock. It sounds like it is a sks-D or M I am not sure of the difference right now. I don't believe there is a fixed magazine for these rifles. You would have to design a way to attach a fised magazine and I remember a big ad about these for the buyback program, but as previously said, if you were able to attach a fixed mag to it you possibly could be legal. http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/contracosta/FaxAlerts/sksalert.shtml

bwiese
03-23-2005, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rascal:
Bill, Chinese SKS's are not C&R, so he has to comply with 922(r). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">With no bayonet and a fixed magazine, he is in compliance, Federally and also in compliance with SB23, since he would no longer have a "SKS with detatchable magazine". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. As long as not marked 'SKS Sporter'.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">after the 89 ban many Chinese SKS's were imported into the country with fixed magazines and no bayonets and were also called "Sporters", so I don't see how they could just use the word "Sporter" to classify an SKS as an illegal weapon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, the law text specifically bans 'SKS Sporters' now. So whether or not SKS Sporter has evil features, etc. it is still an AW.

If not marked SKS Sporter, a mag conversion would be OK.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It has to have the detatchable magazine to be illegal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I have to disagree there; once marked as 'SKS Sporter' it's AW regardless of features.

Sorry to have changed my opinion in middle of this thread but this seems to be the law, and if the rifle is 'marked' as SKS SPorter it's a 'by name' thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kestryll, go to Survivors SKS board and ask around for a Chinese stock. They can be had for very little money, in fact I'm sure that most of the guys over there would trade a excellent condition stock for his stock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, valid if this is SKS conversion and not 'SKS Sporter'.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Rascal
03-23-2005, 7:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Notwithstanding paragraph (11) of subdivision (a) of Section 12276, (basic SKS w/detachable mag in orig Roberti-Roos list of 50+ guns) an "SKS rifle" under this section means all SKS rifles commonly referred to as "SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine and imported into this state and sold by a licensed gun dealer, or otherwise lawfully possessed in this state by a resident of this state who is not a licensed gun dealer, between January 1, 1992, and December 19, 1997. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

""SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine"
That says to me that sporter versions with detatchable magazines are illegal, NOT all SKS Sporters

icormba
03-23-2005, 8:13 PM
Kestryll,
very easy to tell for sure... if it doesn't have any Chinese writing, it's not a real SKS D.
If it does... it's very easy to take a part and line it up against another and tell a diff (if you have one availble?) .

If it's the same... it will take no more than $15-$20 to fix. regular SKS stock can be had for under $10, fixed mag for under $10.

If it is a SKS-D? oh crap!

delloro
03-24-2005, 7:41 AM
cole's has new SKS stocks for $8

bwiese
03-24-2005, 8:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Rascal wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Notwithstanding paragraph (11) of subdivision (a) of Section 12276, (basic SKS w/detachable mag in orig Roberti-Roos list of 50+ guns) an "SKS rifle" under this section means all SKS rifles commonly referred to as "SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine and imported into this state and sold by a licensed gun dealer, or otherwise lawfully possessed in this state by a resident of this state who is not a licensed gun dealer, between January 1, 1992, and December 19, 1997. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

""SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine"
That says to me that sporter versions with detatchable magazines are illegal, NOT all SKS Sporters </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you looked this up, I was too busy.
OK, we have a good definition now.

But what this really says to me is that an SKS Sporter that was orig. mfgd to take an AK mag can't be legalized by removing that detachable mag feature and affixing a fixed mag.

Bill W
San Jose

Charliegone
03-24-2005, 7:49 PM
Then if only the sks that can accept ak mags are illegal than the ones that can accept the duckbill mags are legal? like this one.

http://www.sksman.com/access/SKS%20magazines.html

(check middle of page with duckbill 10rd detachable. It isn't an ak magazine so..)

icormba
03-24-2005, 8:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charliegone:
Then if only the sks that can accept ak mags are illegal than the ones that can accept the duckbill mags are legal? like this one.

http://www.sksman.com/access/SKS%20magazines.html

(check middle of page with duckbill 10rd detachable. It isn't an ak magazine so..) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as far as I know... ALL sks's can accept those "duck bill mags". Except for maybe the SKS-D. it's just not legal to put them on.

Rascal
03-24-2005, 8:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Rascal wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Notwithstanding paragraph (11) of subdivision (a) of Section 12276, (basic SKS w/detachable mag in orig Roberti-Roos list of 50+ guns) an "SKS rifle" under this section means all SKS rifles commonly referred to as "SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine and imported into this state and sold by a licensed gun dealer, or otherwise lawfully possessed in this state by a resident of this state who is not a licensed gun dealer, between January 1, 1992, and December 19, 1997. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

""SKS Sporter" versions, manufactured to accept a detachable AK-47 magazine"
That says to me that sporter versions with detatchable magazines are illegal, NOT all SKS Sporters </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you looked this up, I was too busy.
OK, we have a good definition now.

But what this really says to me is that an SKS Sporter that was orig. mfgd to take an AK mag can't be legalized by removing that detachable mag feature and affixing a fixed mag.

Bill W
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I agree with that, however how is one going to tell if it was ever a "SKS Sporter" with detatchable magazine on it when all you see is the fixed magazine in it? Are the Jack boot thugs going to run around and check everyone who has a chinese SKS to see if it had once held a detatchable magazine? Not likely. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rascal
03-25-2005, 8:30 AM
Kestryll,
From the replys I got on Survivors Board, your friend is better off selling it out of state and buying a Kali legal SKS. He would definately make enough off the SKS-D to buy a Kali legal model and still have money left over. Sorry

icormba
03-25-2005, 5:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rascal:
Kestryll,
From the replys I got on Survivors Board, your friend is better off selling it out of state and buying a Kali legal SKS. He would definately make enough off the SKS-D to buy a Kali legal model and still have money left over. Sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so what I'm trying to figure out is how can he sell it out of state if it's not legal in the state he lives? the SKS-D is not a C&R, is there a way around it? Does he need to travel out and sell it? or can he sell it online or through the mail to an FFL? so confusing.

Rascal
03-25-2005, 8:31 PM
icombra, Good question. I don't have an answer for you. Maybe Bill can enlighten us on how to do this.

bwiese
03-26-2005, 10:18 AM
icormba & rascal...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how can he sell it out of state if it's not legal in the state he lives? the SKS-D is not a C&R, is there a way around it? Does he need to travel out and sell it? or can he sell it online or through the mail to an FFL? so confusing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">icombra, Good question. I don't have an answer for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it is perfectly legal to possess/own/use an AW not reg'd in CA outside of CA. Lotsa folks moved/stored their AWs outside CA when the various bans hit, and didn't register them. There is no Fed law stopping this; CA law doesn't really restrict your possession of AWs out of CA: CA law only stops you from acquiring other guns outside CA without CA FFL intervention.

A CA resident can sell his gun outside CA but only with the services of an FFL outside CA (i.e, NV FFL if the guy wants to sell it to a NV resident). He can ship the gun to an out of state FFL, and his purchaser can do the paperwork with that FFL.

But since this is an AW, it cannot be shipped from without assistance of a CA FFL dealer also holding a (rare) CA Asslt Wpns Permit. And people with a borderline CA AW status shouldn't do that because the paperwork etc might trigger problems.

The person could, however, transport the SKS Sporter into another state himself, and legally store it, sell it to FFL, or sell it to another via an FFL there.

Once in a free state (NV, AZ, etc.) there'd really be no record that the person illegally possessed it in CA - he coulda had it there the whole time since purchase. When this guy got the SKS Sporter, it WAS indeed legal: the laws changed underneath him.

If for some reason someone from CA asks him about it he should just clam up. Opening his mouth just causes problems.

Normally - as you've seen many times - I counsel those w/unreg'd AWs in CA to be really, really, really careful - sometimes it's best to destroy the receiver! - one traffic stop could ruin your life when moving it out of state, and inadvertent LEO attention (fire, ambulance, etc.) could cause you problems even if said AW locked away in your home.

But this SKS Sporter is a borderline case, and there's lotsa additional law written that gives relief of some sort to SKS Sporter etc owners. So worst case here would be to lose rifle and maybe a fine.

Given that, the dude should just drive carefully to a Vegas or AZ gun shop and sell it there.

I'd advise him to NOT try to set up a deal on GunBroker/Auction Arms since that might kinda 'advertise' his continued Calif. possession of it.

He should be able to get enough $$ out of it to come back here and get a nice near-new Yugo SKS.


Bill Wiese
San Jose