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View Full Version : Specialty CA UOC holster?


command_liner
05-29-2009, 11:30 AM
This is an old idea I first mentioned in rec.guns around 1995, but perhaps
its time has now come.

About 1995 the race gun craze was picking up steam and somebody on
rec.crafts.metalworking started making EDM cut aluminum holsters for
1911 race guns. The holster was mildly spring loaded and held 3 mags,
each with its own mild spring load.

My suggestion then was to extend the idea and make a UOC holster
that, when one drew the weapon, the magazine would be inserted
into the firearm and the action would be closed. Of course there
would be a way to remove the unloaded gun from the holster without
loading it, but the normal method would be to grasp the firearm,
pull, and end up with a loaded weapon. This is easy to do with
certain firearms, and harder to do with others. Something like a
top-break revolver with full-moon clips is easy. A full-size double-
stack pistol is more complex because of the range of motion required.

Depending on the elasticity of the law, perhaps specialty magazines
could be constructed. "Not in a position to fire" for a 1911 means
nothing in the pipe and the mag not latched. So make a mag that
interacts with the holster in addition to the firearm. The interaction
makes it impossible to holster the weapon with the magazine in
the firearm: it has to be held out a half inch.

The mechanisms for such systems are not that hard to make. How
much support would there be for systems like this in the UOC
community? How would we (I ?) go about getting judicial notice
on any such system?

demnogis
05-29-2009, 11:37 AM
Without going into too much detail, I think the idea is great!

But from a legal standpoint... It would be argued as the weapon is loaded. If a LEO were to remove the firearm from your holster to do a 12031(e) check and in the process of doing so the holster's mechanisms place a loaded mag into the firearm, you're going to be arrested and charged.

KCM222
05-29-2009, 11:42 AM
Without going into too much detail, I think the idea is great!

But from a legal standpoint... It would be argued as the weapon is loaded. If a LEO were to remove the firearm from your holster to do a 12031(e) check and in the process of doing so the holster's mechanisms place a loaded mag into the firearm, you're going to be arrested and charged.

Yeah this sounds cool, but my first instinct was also that you would be charged. Regardless of the fact that the officer taking out the gun would mean he was the one that loaded it, having a magazine in the well is probably still considered "loaded" regardless of whether or not it's locked in place.

It doesn't matter if it actually is legal or not. What matters is whether or not the DA wants to charge you and force you to spend thousands of dollars defending yourself. And I sure wouldn't want to be the guinea pig.

command_liner
05-29-2009, 12:02 PM
My approach is similar to that of the Bullet Button or the Monsterman Grip.
Take the law to its logical conclusion.

In the case of the BB, or the Prince, the LEO can "adjust" the device
to the point where it is no longer working and get a conviction. The
Feds seem happy to do this also with worn out AR15 parts.

The whole point of the proposed device is to comply with the existing
law and case law. I can make these devices. If the LEO community
specifically tries to circumvent the device, well then the LEO community
is corrupt. That might be the case anyway.

Like the FFDO holster, this is a special device designed to comply with
a specific law. Perhaps an Underground Regulation case is order?
I cannot quite say.

What if there was a way to make it so LEO could not pull out a loaded
weapon? Say, for example, a special glove the user had to wear,
or a ring with a RF key in it?. Just expanding the concept a bit.

GaryV
05-29-2009, 12:18 PM
What if there was a way to make it so LEO could not pull out a loaded nweapon? Say, for example, a special glove the user had to wear, or a ring with a RF key in it?. Just expanding the concept a bit.

Don't even go there! The antis are already trying to push "smart gun" crap on us. The last thing we need is to have someone on our own side producing the technology, and giving them the in to claim that the idea both works and is accepted by gun owners.

bodger
05-29-2009, 12:20 PM
My approach is similar to that of the Bullet Button or the Monsterman Grip.
In the case of the BB, or the Prince, the LEO can "adjust" the device
to the point where it is no longer working and get a conviction. The
Feds seem happy to do this also with worn out AR15 parts.

Have there been documented cases where this has happened? It's one of things I have some concern about with the Raddlock on my Bushmaster.

Sorry to veer off topic.

demnogis
05-29-2009, 12:38 PM
Patent a working "smart gun" idea.

Prohibit any other entity from using it. Insure the ownership of a patent to a living trust.

Henceforth legislation will not be able to pass since the technology is encumbered by unattainable patents.

Supposedly...

Theseus
05-29-2009, 1:00 PM
IANAL and this may be wrong, but IIRC the government has the power to circumvent the patent protections if they are used for their own means.

That is to say if someone developed a device that could fly using magnetic propulsion, the government could then confiscate the patent and develop magnetic propulsion aircraft of their own, even give it to private contractors.

ChuckBooty
05-29-2009, 1:08 PM
It would have to have another feature that you could "lock" (maybe even a place for a small padlock?) so that you could lock it if you go into a school zone. Seems like it'd be pretty bulky though.

command_liner
05-29-2009, 1:36 PM
Have there been documented cases where this has happened? It's one of things I have some concern about with the Raddlock on my Bushmaster.

Sorry to veer off topic.

Feds bending the law with AR15 parts is well documented in that recent
"machine gun" case.

As for mis-adjusted BB, I have not heard of it. OTOH, Chuck Michel
personally explained to me why his "Do not open, call a lawyer" sheets
for safes have been changed from magnetic to adhesive. Police were
taking the magnetic ones off and claiming there was no such thing
installed. SOP is now to put one of the CD Michel sheets on your safe,
then take multiple pictures of it, and forward those to your lawyer
beforehand.

pullnshoot25
05-29-2009, 2:37 PM
This is an old idea I first mentioned in rec.guns around 1995, but perhaps
its time has now come.

About 1995 the race gun craze was picking up steam and somebody on
rec.crafts.metalworking started making EDM cut aluminum holsters for
1911 race guns. The holster was mildly spring loaded and held 3 mags,
each with its own mild spring load.

My suggestion then was to extend the idea and make a UOC holster
that, when one drew the weapon, the magazine would be inserted
into the firearm and the action would be closed. Of course there
would be a way to remove the unloaded gun from the holster without
loading it, but the normal method would be to grasp the firearm,
pull, and end up with a loaded weapon. This is easy to do with
certain firearms, and harder to do with others. Something like a
top-break revolver with full-moon clips is easy. A full-size double-
stack pistol is more complex because of the range of motion required.

Depending on the elasticity of the law, perhaps specialty magazines
could be constructed. "Not in a position to fire" for a 1911 means
nothing in the pipe and the mag not latched. So make a mag that
interacts with the holster in addition to the firearm. The interaction
makes it impossible to holster the weapon with the magazine in
the firearm: it has to be held out a half inch.

The mechanisms for such systems are not that hard to make. How
much support would there be for systems like this in the UOC
community? How would we (I ?) go about getting judicial notice
on any such system?

I have often thought of this idea myself but I am not so mechanically inclined.

If you can develop such a holster and make it so that it is easily disabled to prevent police officers from loading it during a 12031 check then by all means, do it! However, I would make it so that the magazine is just quickly inserted into the firearm and the slide manually racked, as that would make comfort easier and whatnot.

If you develop it, I will totally test it out :)

macadamizer
05-29-2009, 4:33 PM
Patent a working "smart gun" idea.

Prohibit any other entity from using it. Insure the ownership of a patent to a living trust.

Henceforth legislation will not be able to pass since the technology is encumbered by unattainable patents.

Supposedly...

Patents are only valid for 20 years from their filing date, so this would just put off the implementation, not stop it altogether. But a fine idea nonetheless.

ad6mj
05-29-2009, 4:35 PM
I have often thought of this idea myself but I am not so mechanically inclined.

If you can develop such a holster and make it so that it is easily disabled to prevent police officers from loading it during a 12031 check then by all means, do it! However, I would make it so that the magazine is just quickly inserted into the firearm and the slide manually racked, as that would make comfort easier and whatnot.

If you develop it, I will totally test it out :)

What I'd like to have is a non conspicuous, locked belt holster that is easy to unlock and conceals the handgun. Hard shell, not shaped like a firearm, so there would be no PC for a 12031 check.

1JimMarch
05-29-2009, 5:45 PM
OK, let's think here.

Let's say we start with an auto - basically any auto would do. Set it up so it's holstered with the slide back and locked. Set the mag up so that it points straight up, and the gun can be dropped down onto it and throw the slide release.

Draw and fire sequence would be "out, down onto the mag, click, go".

THAT would not be "loaded" under current law, and the draw time wouldn't be all that bad.

In kydex you could do this dead easy.

grammaton76
05-29-2009, 6:02 PM
Have there been documented cases where this has happened? It's one of things I have some concern about with the Raddlock on my Bushmaster.

Sorry to veer off topic.

Sure. There was the LAPD (?) armorer who whacked a Prince50 with a mallet until the set screw broke, so he could get the mag out for storage.

pullnshoot25
05-29-2009, 6:22 PM
What I'd like to have is a non conspicuous, locked belt holster that is easy to unlock and conceals the handgun. Hard shell, not shaped like a firearm, so there would be no PC for a 12031 check.

I had an idea for such a thing...

TatankaGap
05-29-2009, 7:08 PM
IMHO, by the time you develop and get a prototype, it will be irrelevant due to the incorporation of the 2A in the 9th Circuit; it won't be that long before all of CA's gun laws are re-written and I suspect UOC rules will change -

Good idea, tho ~ :)

JDay
05-29-2009, 7:45 PM
Feds bending the law with AR15 parts is well documented in that recent
"machine gun" case.

As for mis-adjusted BB, I have not heard of it. OTOH, Chuck Michel
personally explained to me why his "Do not open, call a lawyer" sheets
for safes have been changed from magnetic to adhesive. Police were
taking the magnetic ones off and claiming there was no such thing
installed. SOP is now to put one of the CD Michel sheets on your safe,
then take multiple pictures of it, and forward those to your lawyer
beforehand.

I have an even better idea, make it into a stencil so that we can spray paint that onto the safe. Would love to see the police explain the missing patch of paint in court.

N6ATF
05-29-2009, 9:21 PM
IMHO, by the time you develop and get a prototype, it will be irrelevant due to the incorporation of the 2A in the 9th Circuit; it won't be that long before all of CA's gun laws are re-written and I suspect UOC rules will change

Oh, they'll be rewritten, just like DC's were, to be in contempt of any court ruling in favor of preserving human lives. CA.gov prints the Constitution on toilet paper, and will continue to do so as long as there is no real punishment.

I have an even better idea, make it into a stencil so that we can spray paint that onto the safe. Would love to see the police explain the missing patch of paint in court.

+1

Mulay El Raisuli
05-30-2009, 8:05 AM
All of this is, IMHO, a very bad idea. UOC is A: an adaptation to the stupid laws we have here in the PRK, & B: a tactic to get the laws changed. Anything that makes UOC more 'suitable' for self defense only lessens the efforts of those working to change the laws.

The Raisuli

TatankaGap
05-30-2009, 9:54 AM
All of this is, IMHO, a very bad idea. UOC is A: an adaptation to the stupid laws we have here in the PRK, & B: a tactic to get the laws changed. Anything that makes UOC more 'suitable' for self defense only lessens the efforts of those working to change the laws.

The Raisuli

+1......

putput
05-30-2009, 10:34 AM
I searched, I really did but can anyone point me to more info on the CD Michel sheets? Legality etc...???

Thanks!


Feds bending the law with AR15 parts is well documented in that recent
"machine gun" case.

As for mis-adjusted BB, I have not heard of it. OTOH, Chuck Michel
personally explained to me why his "Do not open, call a lawyer" sheets
for safes have been changed from magnetic to adhesive. Police were
taking the magnetic ones off and claiming there was no such thing
installed. SOP is now to put one of the CD Michel sheets on your safe,
then take multiple pictures of it, and forward those to your lawyer
beforehand.

MrClamperSir
05-30-2009, 10:53 AM
I searched, I really did but can anyone point me to more info on the CD Michel sheets? Legality etc...???

Thanks!

I was searching for the same info.