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KCM222
05-29-2009, 10:05 AM
Hopefully this terrible event will bring to light to cause for concern over how quickly some LEOs fire their weapons; I won't be holding my breath though.

Quoted in part:

... The slain officer, Omar J. Edwards, 25, who was assigned to patrol housing projects and was wearing plain clothes, was shot in the arm and chest after a team of three other plainclothes officers in a car saw him chasing a man on East 125th Street between First and Second Avenues with his gun drawn, Mr. Kelly said. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/nyregion/30cop.html?em

bigcalidave
05-29-2009, 10:48 AM
Well that was F#$%in stupid... White cop shoots black off duty cop dead. There's some good press for the PD.

ColetheGun
05-29-2009, 10:57 AM
the world we live in :innocent:

bodger
05-29-2009, 11:14 AM
Nice. I wonder how many African American NYPD officers are going to be excited about plainclothes duty after this massive foul-up.

Doheny
05-29-2009, 11:18 AM
Dupe

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=188776&highlight=harlem

st.clouds
05-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Well what do you expect, when you've been taught that any civilian with a gun is a criminal.

1) Obviously the dude isn't wearing a uniform, hence a civilian.
2) Civilian with weapon in hand is obviously a dangerous criminal that must be shot.

I'm starting to see a pattern here, may be it's not the civilian or the leo that's the problem... it's the gun damn it! Bloomberg should wake up and ban guns from the very top to the bottom, then we won't have this kind of problem anymore.

Stupidity and guns don't mix and NY is the cess pool of stupidity as of late.

On a more serious note, it's sad - a family lose their dad, the society lost a good leo. But don't say they didn't have it coming when they stereotyped ALL gun totting civilians as criminals, right wing extremists and were more than happy to rid the world of them, given half the opportunity.

demnogis
05-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Time and time again... Those who display their firearms (read: not brandish, but carry or display) and are detained are told "you're gonna get shot".

I guess it's true?

bigcalidave
05-29-2009, 11:44 AM
Dupe

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=188776&highlight=harlem

That assumes that the reader goes into the off topic forum. I sure don't.

Untamed1972
05-29-2009, 11:55 AM
Just saw on the news last night......did anyone here about the off-duty SDPD officer who was DUI and shot a woman and her child in a road-rage incident? He is currently on trial for that one.

Oh sure....HE can get a CCW! :rolleyes:

Texas Boy
05-29-2009, 12:03 PM
Did anyone notice the reports claimed 6 shots were fired at the off duty officer, and only 2 struck? Seems mighty reckless to fire 6 shots at a guy who isn't shooting at you (or even pointing a gun at you, though he is holding a gun) - and to be so panicked in your fire that only 1/3 of those shots hit. Obviously the other 4 shots went somewhere - and in a dense urban environment there is huge potential for concealed bystanders who could be struck by these shots.

My sympathies to Officer Edwards' family and my sincere hope that NYPD and other agencies learn some restraint on using their weapons.

The SoCal Gunner
05-29-2009, 12:06 PM
They had this same situation in The Wire.

garandguy10
05-29-2009, 12:45 PM
He only fired six rounds?? what a lightweight, around here the cops almost always unload the entire magazine at their target.

CCWFacts
05-29-2009, 12:49 PM
Don't they have a color code system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_day_(police)) to prevent that kind of thing?

I think cop-shooting-off-duty-cop happens more regularly than similar types of situations with CCWers. Probably it's because CCWers are unlikely to become involved in a situation unless it's clear self-defense (ie, CCWers don't make arrests).

tyrist
05-29-2009, 1:20 PM
Don't they have a color code system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_day_(police)) to prevent that kind of thing?

I think cop-shooting-off-duty-cop happens more regularly than similar types of situations with CCWers. Probably it's because CCWers are unlikely to become involved in a situation unless it's clear self-defense (ie, CCWers don't make arrests).

The whole color code thing is usually an item that is put on when police action becomes necessary and not worn for the entire shift. In this situation the immediate action required would prevent such a system from working in the first place.

KCM222
05-29-2009, 1:58 PM
This article probably doesn't have all the facts, but, based on their portrayal, it doesn't look like the cop that was killed had much time to do anything (ie if they took the time to ask him "what color is today?" they would have probably found out he was a cop in the first place - sounds like they just shot when they saw someone without a uniform with a gun).

This could be a terrible assumption, especially given the bias of the article, but not out of the realm of possibility.

I hope we get to hear some testimony from the other 2 cops that did not fire at the officer.

CCWFacts
05-29-2009, 2:02 PM
This article probably doesn't have all the facts, but, based on their portrayal, it doesn't look like the cop that was killed had much time to do anything (ie if they took the time to ask him "what color is today?" they would have probably found out he was a cop in the first place - sounds like they just shot when they saw someone without a uniform with a gun).

From reading the article (with its limited facts and likely inaccuracies), it sounds like they saw a young black man running with a gun chasing two people, and that was enough for them to decide to open fire.

thatrogue
05-30-2009, 9:50 AM
How many "civialians" (subjects) actually defending them self's have been shot in a similar manner by the NYPD or any other Police department in a similar crime ridden city, how easy would it have been to make it look like a good shoot if it wasn't a LEO? I'm glad I live in a safe county/city where Leo feel a little more at ease while working, and may be would give someone a chance to disarm, before they attempt to take his life. It's sad to have yet another fallen LEO.

paladin4415
05-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Just saw on the news last night......did anyone here about the off-duty SDPD officer who was DUI and shot a woman and her child in a road-rage incident? He is currently on trial for that one.

Oh sure....HE can get a CCW! :rolleyes:

You need to check your facts on this one. Off duty cop was not DUI. Dirtbag woman with her small child in the car was drunk and high. Woman chased cop and cops wife off the road into a parking lot and rammed their car. Again, while she had her child in the car with her. Cop fired into the woman's vehicle after he had identified himself as a cop and she drove at his vehicle again. Cop did not know child was in the car at the time he shot. The windows were tinted. Woman has already plead guilty to several crimes committed that day.

Oh, and the cop has not had a CCW since he was suspended pending the outcome of the case.

M198
05-30-2009, 3:58 PM
Time and time again... Those who display their firearms (read: not brandish, but carry or display) and are detained are told "you're gonna get shot".

I guess it's true?

I could use the money. With the economy and all.... The crazy thing here is that he managed to hit him 3 times and kill him with a 9mm. How he shot him 3 times without realizing he wasn't a threat to them is pretty crazy.

CCWFacts
05-30-2009, 4:25 PM
How many "civialians" (subjects) actually defending them self's have been shot in a similar manner by the NYPD or any other Police department in a similar crime ridden city, how easy would it have been to make it look like a good shoot if it wasn't a LEO? I'm glad I live in a safe county/city where Leo feel a little more at ease while working, and may be would give someone a chance to disarm, before they attempt to take his life. It's sad to have yet another fallen LEO.

The difference between someone with a CCW vs. off-duty / plainclothes cop is that someone with a CCW should never chase someone, as this cop was doing.

Of course, when / if NYC goes shall-issue someday, NYPD is going to have to make some adjustments to their attitude and actions.

But still, one lesson from this is, if you have a CCW, don't chase criminals. Leave that to the cops.

The other lesson from this, for cops, is that it's a big risk to perform law enforcement functions (chasing suspects, making arrests) in plainclothes. It puts the cop at risk of being shot by other cops. It puts civilians in the very difficult position of having to decide, within a fraction of a second, "this guy just yelled at me 'I'm a cop, you're under arrest'. Is that real, or should I fight back?"

I personally think that cops should not perform law enforcement functions when not in uniform, except under extraordinary circumstances. It's too dangerous for them and for suspects they may be pursuing and leave the situation unclear for everyone.

Texas Boy
05-30-2009, 4:48 PM
...The other lesson from this, for cops, is that it's a big risk to perform law enforcement functions (chasing suspects, making arrests) in plainclothes. It puts the cop at risk of being shot by other cops. It puts civilians in the very difficult position of having to decide, within a fraction of a second, "this guy just yelled at me 'I'm a cop, you're under arrest'. Is that real, or should I fight back?"

I personally think that cops should not perform law enforcement functions when not in uniform, except under extraordinary circumstances. It's too dangerous for them and for suspects they may be pursuing and leave the situation unclear for everyone.

Reminds me of an incident I witnessed about 25 years ago. I was college student living in a cheap apartment complex. I had just pulled into the parking lot (on motorcycle) when I noticed some sort of "disagreement" between a barefoot guy and a guy in an old car. The car lays rubber and tries to whip around the parking lot. The barefoot guy, who doesn't exactly look like a model citizen, whips out a revolver, runs to block the car and draws a bead on him! :eek:

I was on my way inside my apartment anyway, so I rushed in and dialed 911. By the time I got back outside everyone was gone, but the patrol unit that responded claimed the guy with a gun was undercover. Sure didn't look that way to me.

CCWFacts
05-30-2009, 4:54 PM
Sure didn't look that way to me.

It's just insanely dangerous for all parties in a situation like that. If you're a law-abiding guy, and suddenly someone who looks like a thug draws a gun on you and shouts, "Police! Hands up! You're under arrest!" what do you do? It's a no-win situation for all parties. If the guy is a cop, he risks being shot. If he is a cop, some innocent civilian risks shooting a cop, or hesitating and being the victim of a criminal. Either way, the innocent civilian is going to lose.

nobody33
05-30-2009, 5:05 PM
This doesn't happen very often, but it happens more often than you think. Off duty officers or undercovers getting shot. And it will probably happen again.

All the details aren't available on this yet. However, from the incidents I've been trained about, read on, seen, etc, there is usually a tactical error made by the off duty officer that leads to the shooting. Typically a failure to identify themselves as an officer and not some random bad guy with a gun. There is some good training on this for officers in the Caliber Press officer tactics books.

As long as you have humans in life and death situations there will inevitably be mistakes made. Humans aren't perfect. Cops are not different.

To the guy who didn't like that six rounds were fired: it sounds like you have never been in combat before. I could get 6 rounds off in less than two seconds. People don't instantly drop their guns. You can't see hits. Go down to the range, run two miles full pace then try and hit a moving object from 15-20 yards. It's damn hard.

The colors thing is a TV show issue. We have our undercover officers come to line up so we know their face.

sgtbuck
05-30-2009, 5:14 PM
Just saw on the news last night......did anyone here about the off-duty SDPD officer who was DUI and shot a woman and her child in a road-rage incident? He is currently on trial for that one.

Oh sure....HE can get a CCW! :rolleyes:

FUD What the heck are you spreading??????? HE WAS NOT DUI!!!!!!!! She was... Please get your story stright and don't spread FUD!!!!!:mad:

rabagley
05-30-2009, 9:01 PM
FUD? I didn't see any FUD. I saw an error.

FUD = Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

The OP was spreading none of those. He simply had an important fact wrong in his summary.