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Suvorov
05-29-2009, 7:48 AM
I know that similar discussions have occurred but I can't seem to find anything that is telling me what I want to know. Question - Can my wife use and "borrow for range training on her own or SD if needed" one of my handguns without an HSC or is Kalifornian law so draconian that she needs to have an HSC unless I am with her? I'm living most of the month in Houston so I'm not in the PRK all that much and don't want my wife to run into any legal issues if she needs to use a firearm.

PatriotnMore
05-29-2009, 7:57 AM
It is my understanding, the CA HSC, is only needed to purchase a pistol, not fire one, or have in possession.

rjf
05-29-2009, 7:57 AM
The HSC is not a requirement to own a handgun. It is to purchase one, but once you own it there is no requirement to renew the HSC. So she is fine to use your handgun.

This is just my opinion, others can quote the law.

st.clouds
05-29-2009, 8:00 AM
I read somewhere, that she doesn't need it if the firearm is under your immediate supervision, ie, same building, same house etc. However if you loan her the firearm (for up to the 30 days allowed), she'd need the HSC.

Someone with more legal background can probably point you the correct PC.

Linky... http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124237

bwiese
05-29-2009, 8:08 AM
I'm up in the air.
"Infrequent loan" provision requires borrower to have an HSC.

However your wife has joint ownership.

I don't think anyone will bother her over it even after a traffic stop. "It's my husband's gun, I'm shooting it at the range, I'm not a prohibited person" should be fine.

Colonel63
05-29-2009, 8:12 AM
I'm up in the air.
"Infrequent loan" provision requires borrower to have an HSC.

However your wife has joint ownership.

I don't think anyone will bother her over it even after a traffic stop. "It's my husband's gun, I'm shooting it at the range, I'm not a prohibited person" should be fine.

If the Police Officer can see the gun during a traffic stop, she'll have more problems than a HSC.

Suvorov
05-29-2009, 9:09 AM
Thanks guys!

I finally got her to agree to do a 30 hour block of training to become at least proficient and comfortable with firearms. I had originally planned on sending her to Front Sight, but we decided in the interest of cost (her concern) and depth/technique (my concern) I will be doing the instruction. I don't really see her going to the range much on her own (I can always hope she will become a gun-nut but I don't see it happening), but I want to make sure that my wife can use one of my weapons if needed without running into HSC troubles (will all be a moot point if/when she moves to Texas with me). Getting the HSC isn't all that much of an issue (I will be using the HCS study guide as required "training material") but I'd rather not give the State of Kalifonia any more money than they are already getting.

st.clouds
05-29-2009, 9:35 AM
Thanks guys!

I finally got her to agree to do a 30 hour block of training to become at least proficient and comfortable with firearms. I had originally planned on sending her to Front Sight, but we decided in the interest of cost (her concern) and depth/technique (my concern) I will be doing the instruction. I don't really see her going to the range much on her own (I can always hope she will become a gun-nut but I don't see it happening), but I want to make sure that my wife can use one of my weapons if needed without running into HSC troubles (will all be a moot point if/when she moves to Texas with me). Getting the HSC isn't all that much of an issue (I will be using the HCS study guide as required "training material") but I'd rather not give the State of Kalifonia any more money than they are already getting.

Sorry for the FUD earlier, here's the info you need straight from the .gov website. Point no. 15.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs.php#a16

Is a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) required when a handgun is being loaned?

It depends on the specific circumstances. Generally, a person being loaned a handgun must have a current Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). However, an HSC is not required when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

Suvorov
05-29-2009, 10:04 AM
Is a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) required when a handgun is being loaned?

It depends on the specific circumstances. Generally, a person being loaned a handgun must have a current Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). However, an HSC is not required when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

Thanks, but this has me a little worried/confused. I "live" in Texas 19 days out of the month while my wife lives in the PRK all month. Since I only rent an apartment in Texas and since my move was unplanned and hopefully temporary - most of my firearms are here in the PRK. I am a resident of both states. My question now is, when I am gone for ten days at a time, am I "loaning" my wife my firearms while I am gone? :confused:

Isn't it pathetic how all these so called "common sense gun safety laws" really just fly in the face of all that is common sense?

Legasat
05-29-2009, 10:56 AM
You don't need an HSC to rent a pistol at the range.

You don't need an HSC to protect yourself with a pistol.

You DO need an HSC if you decide to purchase a pistol.

Glock22Fan
05-29-2009, 11:08 AM
All the average intelligent person needs to get an HSC is a half hour (possibly less if familiar with firearms) with the booklet and a few dollars for the test fee. Not any sort of barrier at all.

My wife took it sight unseen without reading the booklet and got all but one question right (she read one of the questions wrongly).

Although far be it from me to dissuade someone from training, I would have thought that sufficient safety and practical handling could be taught in less than 30 hours. Try looking for an NRA basic pistol course.

KCM222
05-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Maybe the appropriate response is to say that your wife is borrowing the gun to go to the range (less than 3 days) and is returning it when she gets back home.

Or if she needed it for SD she would only be borrowing it during that particular time.

You are legally keeping it in California and the terms of her borrowing it are that she puts it back where you want it kept.

The fact that you aren't there shouldn't mean anything.

Sounds reasonable enough to work to me. :D

Decoligny
05-29-2009, 11:16 AM
Maybe the appropriate response is to say that your wife is borrowing the gun to go to the range (less than 3 days) and is returning it when she gets back home. Or if she needed it for SD she would only be borrowing it during that particular time.

You are legally keeping it in California and the terms of her borrowing it are that she puts it back where you want it kept.

The fact that you aren't there shouldn't mean anything.

Sounds reasonable enough to work to me. :D

Everyone missed the second half of the sentence from DOJ:

when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

Glock22Fan
05-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Everyone missed the second half of the sentence from DOJ:

when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

Get the wife to get an HSC. It's easy, so it really doesn't matter if it is technically necessary or not. Then, as she has joint ownership, loans don't enter the equation. Remember, the firearm doesn't have to be registered in her name.

HondaMasterTech
05-29-2009, 5:15 PM
Why would you want to move to California?

Turo
05-29-2009, 5:27 PM
Thanks guys!

I finally got her to agree to do a 30 hour block of training to become at least proficient and comfortable with firearms. I had originally planned on sending her to Front Sight, but we decided in the interest of cost (her concern) and depth/technique (my concern) I will be doing the instruction. I don't really see her going to the range much on her own (I can always hope she will become a gun-nut but I don't see it happening), but I want to make sure that my wife can use one of my weapons if needed without running into HSC troubles (will all be a moot point if/when she moves to Texas with me). Getting the HSC isn't all that much of an issue (I will be using the HCS study guide as required "training material") but I'd rather not give the State of Kalifonia any more money than they are already getting.

make sure you check out Cornered Cat (http://www.corneredcat.com/Teaching/wife.aspx) if you are planning on teaching her yourself. Very informative :)

JDay
05-29-2009, 8:06 PM
Thanks, but this has me a little worried/confused. I "live" in Texas 19 days out of the month while my wife lives in the PRK all month. Since I only rent an apartment in Texas and since my move was unplanned and hopefully temporary - most of my firearms are here in the PRK. I am a resident of both states. My question now is, when I am gone for ten days at a time, am I "loaning" my wife my firearms while I am gone? :confused:

Isn't it pathetic how all these so called "common sense gun safety laws" really just fly in the face of all that is common sense?

You're storing your firearms at home while you're away.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-29-2009, 9:16 PM
I'm up in the air.
"Infrequent loan" provision requires borrower to have an HSC.

However your wife has joint ownership.

I would just treat the whole thing as an "infrequent loan" and have your wife get an HSC. The law about joint ownership, or "community property" says you need to send in an OP/Law form and have an HSC whenever "title or possession" of a handgun changes from one spouse to the other. That would just be a huge confusing mess.

I've never heard of anybody getting in trouble for spouse to spouse loans, but having her get an HSC and using the "infrequent loan" exemption would mean you were 100% covered and would not have to worry about anything.

CPC 12078(i)(2) - Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to a person who takes title or possession of a handgun by operation of law if the person is not prohibited by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms and all of the following conditions are met: (A) If the person taking title or possession is neither a levying officer as defined in Section 481.140, 511.060, or 680.210 of the Code of Civil Procedure nor a person who is receiving that firearm pursuant to subparagraph (G), (I), or (J) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), the person shall, within 30 days of taking possession, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report of information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the department. (B) If the person taking title or possession is receiving the firearm pursuant to subparagraph (G) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (u), the person shall do both of the following: (i) Within 30 days of taking possession, forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the department, a report of information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title or possession was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the department. (ii) Prior to taking title or possession of the firearm, the person shall obtain a handgun safety certificate.


CPC 12078(u) - As used in this section:

(2) "A person taking title or possession of firearms by operation of law" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following instances wherein an individual receives title to, or possession of, firearms:

(G) A transmutation of property consisting of firearms pursuant to Section 850 of the Family Code.

CFC 850. Subject to Sections 851 to 853, inclusive, married persons may by agreement or transfer, with or without consideration, do any of the following:

(a) Transmute community property to separate property of either spouse.
(b) Transmute separate property of either spouse to community property.
(c) Transmute separate property of one spouse to separate property of the other spouse.

Suvorov
05-30-2009, 7:36 AM
Thanks guys!

make sure you check out Cornered Cat (http://www.corneredcat.com/Teaching/wife.aspx) if you are planning on teaching her yourself. Very informative :)

This was one of my original concerns that we discussed, we will see how it goes and if it looks like I'm not getting good results (safety violations or she is pissed off at me when we leave the range) I will stop. I do however have on my side quite a few years of teaching experience from small arms instruction to flight instruction so hopefully I can draw a little from that and make it a good time for both of us and get her comfortable with arms.