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View Full Version : Tools to estimate whether you are in a school zone


dsmoot
05-28-2009, 8:17 PM
Hey everyone, sorry if this is the wrong forum, I was wondering if anyone had any tools or tips on how to determine all of the K-12 schools around a given area and the current distance to them?

I've tried using google maps, but when you search for schools, you get all kinds of schools not just K-12 (such as swim and dance schools). It also sometimes misses some small private schools. Another thing is that I'm not sure if there is a way using google maps to determine the distance between 2 points.

It would be great if this could all be done on a GPS enabled mobile phone like the iPhone, so that you could always have this info with you.

-dsmoot

paul0660
05-28-2009, 8:23 PM
Why do you ask? Transporting through a school zone only demands the usual (handguns unloaded and in a locked case, long guns unloaded). Stopping in a school zone, for instance to pick up a kid, is a gray area, to which I would err on the conservative.

And, of course, if you live within the school zone, you are permitted firearms.

CitaDeL
05-28-2009, 8:29 PM
Why do you ask? Transporting through a school zone only demands the usual (handguns unloaded and in a locked case, long guns unloaded). Stopping in a school zone, for instance to pick up a kid, is a gray area, to which I would err on the conservative.

And, of course, if you live within the school zone, you are permitted firearms.

Sounds like someone wants to UOC and not step into a violation.

dsmoot
05-28-2009, 8:30 PM
So that IF I was to UOC, I would be reasonably informed of the schools around me, and I would then be able to lock my firearm in a case when in these zones.

cousinkix1953
05-28-2009, 8:39 PM
Unfortunately most city dwellers live within 1000 feet of a neighborhood school. That distance is longer (as a crow flies) than you might think. One quarter of a mile is just 1320 feet in a straight line...

paul0660
05-28-2009, 8:45 PM
Concealed means concealed. If you are concerned about your safety, and you should be, concealed means concealed. Not brain science.

dsmoot
05-28-2009, 8:56 PM
Concealed means concealed. If you are concerned about your safety, and you should be, concealed means concealed. Not brain science.
Not sure why you are bringing up concealed, since I was specifically asking about unloaded open carry, but if you were suggesting carrying concealed, I cant reasonably get a CCW in Orange county where I live.

paul0660
05-28-2009, 9:01 PM
You are right. Good luck with your endeavor.

Theseus
05-28-2009, 9:07 PM
There is no good way or reason to inform yourself of schools other than in your normal paths of travel.

They have to prove you have knowledge or should have reasonable knowledge that you were in a school zone.

I will tell you in a few weeks how easy it will be to convince a jury how difficult it is to have reasonable knowledge.

dsmoot
05-28-2009, 9:56 PM
There is no good way or reason to inform yourself of schools other than in your normal paths of travel.

They have to prove you have knowledge or should have reasonable knowledge that you were in a school zone.

I will tell you in a few weeks how easy it will be to convince a jury how difficult it is to have reasonable knowledge.
Thanks for the input, I pretty much know the schools around my home, but its more of a concern when I'm out and about.

I guess one could argue that if I am in an unknown area that I have no reasonable knowledge of the schools in the area, and if there is a school around the corner out of sight of where I am, then I had no reasonable knowledge of it being there.

However, I doubt if I was in that position, the PD or DA would see it that way, and If I had the option to determine where the schools were around me, then I could at least be as informed as possible.

PS - I hope that everything goes well with your case and that a better definition of reasonable knowledge can come out of it!

Theseus
05-28-2009, 10:03 PM
Unfortunately you are somewhat right in that they can still charge you even though they may know they are applying the law incorrectly, but I will add that if you aren't prepared to have to deal with that it might not be a good idea to OC.

cousinkix1953
05-28-2009, 10:23 PM
Not sure why you are bringing up concealed, since I was specifically asking about unloaded open carry, but if you were suggesting carrying concealed, I cant reasonably get a CCW in Orange county where I live.
Not unless you are some frigging Hollywood movie star, a big contributor to the sheriff's political campaigns or related to a corrupt police chief. The whole system is ripe for a major investigation...

dsmoot
05-28-2009, 10:32 PM
Not unless you are some frigging Hollywood movie star, a big contributor to the sheriff's political campaigns or related to a corrupt police chief. The whole system is ripe for a major investigation...
Exactly, before I started getting informed by reading this site and others, I always thought that Sheriff was one of those elected officials that you just randomly picked the person with the best name like school board members ;) Now I'm going to be sure to do all my homework before voting for such "elected"* officials.

*I say "elected" since our current sheriff has never actually been elected.

grahlaika
05-28-2009, 10:34 PM
If you're in a city, chances are you're within the minimum distance of some sort of school, so act accordingly.

N6ATF
05-28-2009, 10:37 PM
If you're in a city, chances are you're within the minimum distance of some sort of school, so act accordingly.

In other words, move or be a victim of criminals in front of or behind badges.
:rolleyes:

jacques
05-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Use your nose, you can smell all the Clearasil a 1000' away.

Don't some of those Nav units have info on where schools, gas stations etc. are?

cousinkix1953
05-29-2009, 12:42 AM
If you're in a city, chances are you're within the minimum distance of some sort of school, so act accordingly.
I seem to remember that the SCOTUS declared Bill Clinton's "gun free school zone law" to be illegal and unconstitutional. It's one thing to say that you can't bring your piece on the campus; but nobody gets to say whether a school is going to be built a few hundred yards away. So why do these corrupt politicians defy court orders and continue to harass people.

If your police chief or sheriff will not issue a CCW permit to all equally qualified applicants and continues to play favorites with celebrities; then maybe it's time to ban them all at the ballot box. You can strip crooked LEOs of this right. Voters can take away their automatic weapons and tanks on election day too. There was a "ban the SWAT team" initiative on the local ballot in Santa Cruz county in 1978. There is no question that you can take away a crooked cop's right to selectively hand out CCW permits...

obeygiant
05-29-2009, 2:05 AM
There was a thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=156779) on this awhile back but it looks like the map has been taken down.

Kid Stanislaus
05-29-2009, 7:46 AM
There is no good way or reason to inform yourself of schools other than in your normal paths of travel. They have to prove you have knowledge or should have reasonable knowledge that you were in a school zone. I will tell you in a few weeks how easy it will be to convince a jury how difficult it is to have reasonable knowledge.

Yeah, "reasonable knowledge" sounds like a real can of worms to me.

Decoligny
05-29-2009, 8:33 AM
I seem to remember that the SCOTUS declared Bill Clinton's "gun free school zone law" to be illegal and unconstitutional...

Yes SCOTUS did, and then Congress re-wrote the law, added a couple of words and re-passed it. It hasn't been challenged and overthrown yet, don't even know if anyone has been charged at the Fed level.

Unfortunately all that is a moot point because California has its very own Penal Code 626.9, which establishes the 1,000 foot boundary, so it is the State Law that you will be arrested for violating, not the Federal, unless of course you happen to be UOCing and bump into a Fed with nothing better to do.

Theseus
05-29-2009, 8:41 AM
And the bill that would extend the school zone to 1500 feet just made it out of committee.

N6ATF
05-29-2009, 8:52 AM
Apparently they want to be sued in fed court... 1,000' isn't enough of a radius to be unconstitutional enough.

obeygiant
05-29-2009, 9:41 AM
There was a thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=156779) on this awhile back but it looks like the map has been taken down.

Just got a reply back from anony mouse the creator of the site:

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 02:01 -0700, obeygiant wrote:
> > Any chance of the map coming back online?
> >
> > -obeygiant @ calguns


working on it, the power went out early this morning, and I am trying to
walk them through getting it back up (its at a film festival office I
volunteered at while I lived in Amsterdam, I am their only tech guy and
am in cali now, bear with us)

tombinghamthegreat
05-29-2009, 3:05 PM
And the bill that would extend the school zone to 1500 feet just made it out of committee.

I hope this is on Calguns **** list of laws to remove

cousinkix1953
05-29-2009, 3:44 PM
Yes SCOTUS did, and then Congress re-wrote the law, added a couple of words and re-passed it. It hasn't been challenged and overthrown yet, don't even know if anyone has been charged at the Fed level.

Unfortunately all that is a moot point because California has its very own Penal Code 626.9, which establishes the 1,000 foot boundary, so it is the State Law that you will be arrested for violating, not the Federal, unless of course you happen to be UOCing and bump into a Fed with nothing better to do.
Then most of us are criminals by default in that case. A day will come when those Gestapo agents will actually kick in the doors of homes within 1000 feet of their state run brainwashing centers...

lioneaglegriffin
05-29-2009, 5:15 PM
so what is a reasonable school zone?

100 ft?

Librarian
05-29-2009, 5:17 PM
so what is a reasonable school zone?

100 ft?The campus boundary - inside its fence line, if any, inside the inner edge of bordering sidewalks if any.

TatankaGap
05-29-2009, 7:14 PM
FYI - the Gun Free School Zone Act is either based on the Drug Free School Zone Act or vice-versa - either way, there's a 1000' boundary built into CA's Proposition 215 implementation for medical cannabis dispensaries -

In any county that has not banned medical cannabis dispensaries, there will be a zoning map that shows green zones where a person can apply to establish a medical cannabis dispensary -

A person should be able to UOC in any green zone where according to the local authorities someone could open a medical cannabis dispensary.

If there is any question about it, get the two parts of the government to fight it out ;)

The Wingnut
05-29-2009, 8:41 PM
Here's how I estimated whether not I was within 1000' of a school zone:

I went to Google maps, and typed in my town, state, and included the word 'schools'.

It zoomed in on my town and marked every school. I then zoomed in to the point that I found my residence and kept the nearest school on the screen. At that zoom level, there's a 100' distance scale in the lower left corner of the map. I measured this distance with a ruler, multiplied it by 10, and marked that distance on the edge of a piece of paper. I then held the paper up to the screen and put one end on the school and referenced the mark I made.

I am less than approximately 1000' from a school. No UOC for me.

This is an inaccurate way of determining distance, but considering the legal ramifications, a rough estimate will suffice. If you're over but close to the mark, it's probably a bad idea.

GuyW
05-29-2009, 8:54 PM
Transporting through a school zone only demands the usual (handguns unloaded and in a locked case, long guns unloaded).

That's state law, not federal....

dsmoot
05-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Here's how I estimated whether not I was within 1000' of a school zone:

I went to Google maps, and typed in my town, state, and included the word 'schools'.

It zoomed in on my town and marked every school. I then zoomed in to the point that I found my residence and kept the nearest school on the screen. At that zoom level, there's a 100' distance scale in the lower left corner of the map. I measured this distance with a ruler, multiplied it by 10, and marked that distance on the edge of a piece of paper. I then held the paper up to the screen and put one end on the school and referenced the mark I made.

I am less than approximately 1000' from a school. No UOC for me.

This is an inaccurate way of determining distance, but considering the legal ramifications, a rough estimate will suffice. If you're over but close to the mark, it's probably a bad idea.
Yeah, thats basically what Ive done for now, it would just be really nice if I could say do it on the fly when I am out on my mobile phone with GPS. But Even if you use a GPS distance calculation, it goes by streets which are much farther than as the crow flies.

cousinkix1953
05-29-2009, 11:22 PM
Here's how I estimated whether not I was within 1000' of a school zone:

I went to Google maps, and typed in my town, state, and included the word 'schools'.

It zoomed in on my town and marked every school. I then zoomed in to the point that I found my residence and kept the nearest school on the screen. At that zoom level, there's a 100' distance scale in the lower left corner of the map. I measured this distance with a ruler, multiplied it by 10, and marked that distance on the edge of a piece of paper. I then held the paper up to the screen and put one end on the school and referenced the mark I made.

I am less than approximately 1000' from a school. No UOC for me.

This is an inaccurate way of determining distance, but considering the legal ramifications, a rough estimate will suffice. If you're over but close to the mark, it's probably a bad idea.
One right wing state senator from San Diego wants to black out those locations on Google satellite maps. He's actually paranoid that Osama bin Laden is sitting in a cave and zeroing in on schools with a laptop computer, so he can pick out some terrorist targets. I saw this guy freaking out on TV a few months ago...

N6ATF
05-30-2009, 1:05 AM
You know what? GOOD. Make it so the only way to have knowledge of school zones is to hire a surveyor or do some amateur measuring with an average consumer 15 foot measuring tape. Completely unreasonable and gives us a great defense!

CABilly
05-30-2009, 2:39 AM
Hey everyone, sorry if this is the wrong forum, I was wondering if anyone had any tools or tips on how to determine all of the K-12 schools around a given area and the current distance to them?

I've tried using google maps, but when you search for schools, you get all kinds of schools not just K-12 (such as swim and dance schools). It also sometimes misses some small private schools. Another thing is that I'm not sure if there is a way using google maps to determine the distance between 2 points.

It would be great if this could all be done on a GPS enabled mobile phone like the iPhone, so that you could always have this info with you.

-dsmoot

I was thinking about doing this, but I have no idea how to go about it. Another useful one would be a condor zone GPS app. Something that would alarm when you're approaching the vicinity of a restricted area.

obeygiant
05-30-2009, 10:27 AM
I was thinking about doing this, but I have no idea how to go about it. Another useful one would be a condor zone GPS app. Something that would alarm when you're approaching the vicinity of a restricted area.

Showing the school zones should be pretty easy on most mobile phones using the gfsz map by "anony mous" that I mentioned earlier. In terms of having it alert you when you are approaching that would require a bit more programming talent. Maybe some of the other Calgunner's with that particular area of expertise would be willing to put something together?

JTecalo
05-30-2009, 5:32 PM
Stupid question... but if a district closes a school, does the 1000' still apply?

It's still school district property.

N6ATF
05-30-2009, 8:56 PM
Probably, since a school is considered a school even when no students are in it (i.e. at 3 am).

JTecalo
05-30-2009, 10:22 PM
Probably, since a school is considered a school even when no students are in it (i.e. at 3 am).

I thought it might be

obeygiant
06-09-2009, 1:36 AM
For anyone that's interested, Anony Mouse was able to bring the site back online. You can check it out here (http://www.0xdecafbad.com/gfsz/)

Be patient as it takes a bit to overlay 11,000 schools onto the google map but it is definitely a nice resource.