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Kicker0429
05-28-2009, 5:47 PM
California Penal Code 374c states that, "Every person who shoots any firearm from or upon a public road or highway is guilty of a misdemeanor." However, there is no mention of sidewalks. Would I be delusional in thinking that loaded carry in unincorporated
towns would be permissible as long as I stayed off of the roads or highways?;)

dieselpower
05-28-2009, 5:59 PM
sidewalks are roads, just not for wheeled vehicles.

aplinker
05-28-2009, 6:06 PM
delusional.

HondaMasterTech
05-28-2009, 6:06 PM
sidewalks are roads, just not for wheeled vehicles.

On the contrary. I have seen many wheeled vehicles on sidewalks.

HowardW56
05-28-2009, 6:20 PM
California Penal Code 374c states that, "Every person who shoots any firearm from or upon a public road or highway is guilty of a misdemeanor." However, there is no mention of sidewalks. Would I be delusional in thinking that loaded carry in unincorporated
towns would be permissible as long as I stayed off of the roads or highways?;)

The "Highway" extends from property line to property line....

tyrist
05-28-2009, 6:29 PM
Sidewalks are included in public road. Roads are not just for cars they are for everything.

Dick Thomas
05-28-2009, 6:31 PM
The sidewalk is part of the "roadway" as defined by the California Vehicle code. The Vehicle Code applies to the full wide of the "roadway" including the sidewalk.

bohoki
05-28-2009, 6:32 PM
The sidewalk is part of the "roadway" as defined by the California Vehicle code. The Vehicle Code applies to the full wide of the "roadway" including the sidewalk.

and yet when you drive down the sidewalk the cops dont like it very much

Kicker0429
05-28-2009, 6:36 PM
Would any of you be so kind as to cite California Code or case law? I am not disagreeing with any of you, however, I would like for you to substantiate your claims.

Fred Flintstone
05-28-2009, 6:42 PM
The sidewalk is part of the "roadway" as defined by the California Vehicle code. The Vehicle Code applies to the full wide of the "roadway" including the sidewalk.

so dudes driving on the sidewalks aren't necessarily breaking the law eh? :cool:

bodger
05-28-2009, 6:43 PM
The sidewalk is part of the "roadway" as defined by the California Vehicle code. The Vehicle Code applies to the full wide of the "roadway" including the sidewalk.

....and I'm assuming that includes the "parkway", that grassy strip between the street and the sidewalk.....

You know, where you always step in dog sheet as you feed the parking meter.

Dick Thomas
05-28-2009, 6:50 PM
Driving on Sidewalk
21663. Except as expressly permitted pursuant to this code, including Sections 21100. 4 and 21114.5, no person shall operate or move a motor vehicle upon a sidewalk except as may be necessary to enter or leave adjacent property.


Amended Sec. 126, Ch. 124, Stats. 1996. Effective January 1, 1997.

paul0660
05-28-2009, 7:09 PM
Please LOC on the sidewalk and let us know how it goes.

Librarian
05-28-2009, 7:18 PM
Well, let's noodle around a bit...

CVC says 530. A "roadway" is that portion of a highway improved, designed,
or ordinarily used for vehicular travel.

Contra Costa County says 88-6.418 Road, street or highway.
"Road, street, or highway" means a state highway or a county highway, as defined in the Streets and Highways Code of the state of California, or a public road or street offered for dedication to the public use and eligible to be accepted by the county as a county highway. and 92-4.086 Street.
"Street" is a way, excluding a path or alley, for pedestrian and vehicular traffic.
Looks to me that sidewalks count as part of the street.

ohsmily
05-28-2009, 7:18 PM
California Penal Code 374c states that, "Every person who shoots any firearm from or upon a public road or highway is guilty of a misdemeanor." However, there is no mention of sidewalks. Would I be delusional in thinking that loaded carry in unincorporated
towns would be permissible as long as I stayed off of the roads or highways?;)

Why are you citing a law about SHOOTING a firearm when you are asking about CARRYING a firearm? WTF? Am I missing something?

Kicker0429
05-28-2009, 7:33 PM
I cited a code which disallows discharge because loaded carry is not allowed in prohibited areas.

“‘Prohibited area’” means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.” (CALJIC No. 16.470 (1997 Revision).)

Librarian, I noticed that you cite Contra Costa County ordinances. Can you cite a California definition which explicitly disallows loaded carry on sidewalks? I reside in Merced County, so your county's ordinances do not apply in mine.

paul0660
05-28-2009, 7:34 PM
Osmily, one can only carry loaded where it is not illegal to discharge. You can't shoot from roads (or sidewalks, maybe), so you have to unloaded open carry there.

CitaDeL
05-28-2009, 7:36 PM
Why are you citing a law about SHOOTING a firearm when you are asking about CARRYING a firearm? WTF? Am I missing something?

They are asking because 12031 specifies that areas where discharge is illegal are "prohibited" areas in unincorporated territory. PC 374 appears to make discharge illegal, however it does not define an area. It is pretty vague. I believe there is some case law that would limit the scope of prohibited area to places described by local ordinance, however I cannot cite it at the moment.

DDT
05-28-2009, 7:47 PM
Well, let's noodle around a bit...

CVC says

Contra Costa County says and Looks to me that sidewalks count as part of the street.

I would say that a sidewalk isn't designed for pedestrian AND vehicular traffic as vehicular traffic is expressly prohibited except in specific circumstances. Surely not a "designed use."

Librarian
05-28-2009, 8:16 PM
I cited a code which disallows discharge because loaded carry is not allowed in prohibited areas.

“‘Prohibited area’” means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.” (CALJIC No. 16.470 (1997 Revision).)

Librarian, I noticed that you cite Contra Costa County ordinances. Can you cite a California definition which explicitly disallows loaded carry on sidewalks? I reside in Merced County, so your county's ordinances do not apply in mine.

Most streets are 'dedicated' to either a city or a county, so what defines them will be local. AFAIK, CA does not have a state-wide definition.

So, you'll need to look up both your county and city info - here's Merced County (http://www.qcode.us/codes/mercedcounty/).

There are 3 places I've found city/county codes on line:
http://www.municode.com/Resources/OnlineLibrary.asp
http://www.qcode.us/codes.htm
http://municipalcodes.lexisnexis.com/#CA

And, they'll also likely have ordinances regulating firearms, which it might be a good idea to review.

RomanDad
05-28-2009, 8:16 PM
Why are you citing a law about SHOOTING a firearm when you are asking about CARRYING a firearm? WTF? Am I missing something?

Ding Ding Ding.... My question exactly.

CPC 12031

A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in.... any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

A sidewalk is a PUBLIC PLACE, is it not?

You dont think its illegal to shoot a gun on a SIDEWALK, simply because the sidewalk is not within city limits?

Walk down a sidewalk on Newport Ave East of 17th street in unincorporated Orange County some busy rush hour evening shooting your gun, and see how far you get.


California Vehicle code Section 555.

"Sidewalk" is that portion of a highway, other than the
roadway, set apart by curbs, barriers, markings or other delineation
for pedestrian travel.

....and I'm assuming that includes the "parkway", that grassy strip between the street and the sidewalk.....



It even includes the "Grassy Knoll" which is where this thread is headed.

Kicker0429
05-28-2009, 8:56 PM
RomanDad, I was very careful when I stated unincorporated. Please note that the public place or street must be in a prohibited area.
Why would our esteemed legislators add the term "prohibited area" if they intended PC12031 to apply to any public place without qualification? Another clarification is that I never stated that I intended to discharge my firearm, merely that I wish to carry it loaded in an unincorporated area. I repeat, I only cited PC374c because it restricts loaded carry to areas which are not prohibited.

Liberty1
05-28-2009, 10:25 PM
374c does not "trigger" 12031. I'll provide some documentation when I get a chance in the next few days...

I've wanted to discuss this in the past but it is even more complicated then the ususal 12031 issues.

as always IANAL :43:

Death to 12031!!!

E Pluribus Unum
05-28-2009, 10:50 PM
I cited a code which disallows discharge because loaded carry is not allowed in prohibited areas.

“‘Prohibited area’” means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.” (CALJIC No. 16.470 (1997 Revision).)

Librarian, I noticed that you cite Contra Costa County ordinances. Can you cite a California definition which explicitly disallows loaded carry on sidewalks? I reside in Merced County, so your county's ordinances do not apply in mine.

Found it:


Merced County Ordinance:
1.04.010 P. “Sidewalk” means that portion of a street between the curb-line and the adjacent property line intended for the use of pedestrians.

RomanDad
05-29-2009, 6:02 AM
RomanDad, I was very careful when I stated unincorporated. Please note that the public place or street must be in a prohibited area.
Why would our esteemed legislators add the term "prohibited area" if they intended PC12031 to apply to any public place without qualification? Another clarification is that I never stated that I intended to discharge my firearm, merely that I wish to carry it loaded in an unincorporated area. I repeat, I only cited PC374c because it restricts loaded carry to areas which are not prohibited.

I was very careful when I said unincorporated as well.... I removed all language from 12031 relating to incorporated areas. There are certainly places in unincorporated areas where it is legal to discharge firearms (where the county has not said its ILLEGAL to do so- You will find no such places in anywhere near populated areas).

Youre USING the DISCHARGE ordinance to define the CARRY ordinance. As if thats the ONLY definition of "prohibited", which it certainly isn't.

Example Gratia, here is the Orange County Municipal code (I dont have the Merced Code in front of me) covering the discharge of Firearms:

[edit, crap... the forum wont let me post the whole thing, so Ill have to cut most of it. Take my word for it... It covers 99% of unincorporated Orange County, including some REALLY rural areas.... Here is a link: http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?sid=5&pid=11378
ARTICLE 1. FIREARMS

Sec. 3-2-1. Discharge of firearms.
It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a peace officer acting in his official line of duty, to shoot, fire or discharge, or for any person, firm or corporation to cause or permit to be shot, fired or discharged, in the unincorporated territory lying within the boundaries of any district hereinafter in this article defined, any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or firearm, except when it may be necessary so to do to protect life or property, or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal.
Code 1961, § 32.011)

Sec. 3-2-2. District No. 1 (Rossmoor area).
All that portion of the unincorporated territory of the County of Orange within the following described boundaries:
Beginning at the intersection of the North boundary of Ocean Avenue with the Los Angeles-Orange County lines; thence in a Northerly direction along said County line to its intersection with the South boundary of Katella Avenue; thence along the South boundary of Katella Avenue, Easterly, to its intersection with the West boundary of Los Alamitos Boulevard; thence South along said West boundary of Los Alamitos Boulevard to the North boundary of Ocean Avenue; thence Westerly along said North boundary of Ocean Avenue to the point of beginning.
Code 1961, § 32.011.1)

Sec. 3-2-13. District Nos. 8, 9 (Silverado and Modjeska Canyon area).
All that portion of the unincorporated territory of the County of Orange, State of California, described as follows:
(District No. 8--Silverado area): Beginning at the West one-quarter corner of Section 9, Township 5 South, Range 7 West, San Bernardino Base and Meridian, as per government survey plat approved October 11, 1895, U.S. Surveyor General's Office; thence, Easterly, along the East-West one-quarter section lines of Sections 9, 10 and 11 of said township and range, to the East one-quarter corner of said Section 11; thence, Southerly, along the East line of said Section 11 and the East line of Section 14, said township and range, to the Southeast corner of the Northeast one-quarter (NE 1/4) of the Northeast one-quarter (NE 1/4) of said Section 14; thence, Westerly, along the quarter-quarter section lines of Sections 14, 15, 16 and 17 of said township and range, to the Southwest corner of the Northwest one-quarter (NW 1/4) of the Northwest one-quarter (NW 1/4) of said Section 17; thence, Northerly, along the West line of said Section 17, to the center line of Silverado Canyon Road as now established; thence, in a general Northeasterly direction to the West one-quarter corner of said Section 9 and the point of beginning, and, in addition to the foregoing area, those areas Easterly and Westerly thereof lying within 100 yards Northerly and Southerly of Silverado Canyon Road, as said road presently exists, from the U.S. Forest Service gate to the West to 100 yards beyond the uppermost dam to the East.
(District No. 9--Modjeska area): Beginning at the Northwest corner of Lot 1, fractional Section 29, Township 5 South, Range 7 West, San Bernardino Base and Meridian, as per government survey plat approved October 11, 1895, U.S. Surveyor General's Office; thence, Easterly, along the North line of said fractional Section 29 and Section 28, said township and range, to the Northeast corner of the Northwest one-quarter (NW 1/4) of the Northeast one-quarter (NE 1/4) of said Section 28; thence, Southerly, along the quarter-quarter section line of said Section 28, to the Southeast corner of the Northwest one-quarter (NW 1/4) of the Southeast one-quarter (SE 1/4) of said Section 28; thence, Westerly, along the quarter-quarter section line of said Section 28, to the West line of said Section 28; thence, Southerly, along said West line, to the Southwest corner of said Section 28; thence, Westerly, along the South line of said fractional Section 29, to the forest boundary of the Cleveland National Forest; thence, Northwesterly, along said forest boundary, to the West line of said fractional Section 29; thence, Northerly along said West line of fractional Section 29, to the Northwest corner of said section and the point of beginning.



I guarantee you, most every other county has something similar.


But assuming you were right, and the ONLY applicable definition of "prohibited" is that found in the STATE discharge ordinance, by your reasoning it has to be LEGAL to DISCHARGE the gun there as well as carry it. I was trying to apply to your sense of logic and common sense. That you would say "Yeah, that makes sense.... I cant just stroll down the sidewalk popping off rounds, just because the area is unincorporated.... So if Im using that definition to apply to carry, then I must be wrong...."


Finally, I provided you with the CALIFORNIA definition of "SIDEWALK" from the vehicle code... It is part of the "Highway" which under your own reasoning was ILLEGAL.

Glock22Fan
05-29-2009, 7:39 AM
As the highway is about the only way most of us have to get from (privately owned) point A to (privately owned) point B in unincorporated areas where shooting is not expressly banned, it makes it seem as if LOC is prohibited except at point A or point B.

So, when can you LOC, except on private property?

Therefore it is a bit of a red herring, isn't it?

Kicker0429
05-29-2009, 8:25 AM
Thank you all for your input. I guess that I will have to wait until we get shall issue CCW. :(

Librarian
05-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Thank you all for your input. I guess that I will have to wait until we get shall issue CCW. :(
Probably - but keep thinking about this stuff. A lot of things will turn out to be useless, but occasionally we get a little ray of sunshine that we'd been ignoring.

Decoligny
05-29-2009, 11:29 AM
I was very careful when I said unincorporated as well.... I removed all language from 12031 relating to incorporated areas. There are certainly places in unincorporated areas where it is legal to discharge firearms (where the county has not said its ILLEGAL to do so- You will find no such places in anywhere near populated areas).

Youre USING the DISCHARGE ordinance to define the CARRY ordinance. As if thats the ONLY definition of "prohibited", which it certainly isn't.

Example Gratia, here is the Orange County Municipal code (I dont have the Merced Code in front of me) covering the discharge of Firearms:

[edit, crap... the forum wont let me post the whole thing, so Ill have to cut most of it. Take my word for it... It covers 99% of unincorporated Orange County, including some REALLY rural areas.... Here is a link: http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?sid=5&pid=11378


I guarantee you, most every other county has something similar.


But assuming you were right, and the ONLY applicable definition of "prohibited" is that found in the STATE discharge ordinance, by your reasoning it has to be LEGAL to DISCHARGE the gun there as well as carry it. I was trying to apply to your sense of logic and common sense. That you would say "Yeah, that makes sense.... I cant just stroll down the sidewalk popping off rounds, just because the area is unincorporated.... So if Im using that definition to apply to carry, then I must be wrong...."


Finally, I provided you with the CALIFORNIA definition of "SIDEWALK" from the vehicle code... It is part of the "Highway" which under your own reasoning was ILLEGAL.

Kern County only has an ordinance against discharge of firearms in County Parks. So, in Kern County, it is totally legal to discharge a firearm in my own front yard as long as I do it in a safe manner. The Fish and Game regulations cover disharge within a certain distance of building "WHILE HUNTING". Most of where I live we don't have sidewalks. So, unless I am within 1,000 feet of a school, or am in a County Park, then I can discharge a firearm.

It has even been put forth by Mike Stollenwick of OpenCarry.org, that case law (People v. Young) has 12031's "prohibit areas" being limited to only those areas prohibited by COUNTY ORDINANCE. This would mean that even though PC 374c prohibit shoot from or across any public road or highway, that wouldn't preclude carry loaded on roads in unincorporated areas where County Ordinances haven't prohibited discharge.

GuyW
05-29-2009, 12:47 PM
KInda OT, but "sidewalk" in the vehicles code does NOT mean a paved or concrete walkway, its just the area behind the curb, etc per the definition...