PDA

View Full Version : OLL's and age restrictions?


psssniper
05-27-2009, 6:52 PM
Hypothetical situation:

19 yr old orders two stripped OLL's from an out of state dealer.
Dealer accepts payment and ships lowers to Calif FFL
Calif FFL wont DROS to 19 yr old FFL says you have to be 21

What happens next?
Can the 19 yr olds father go in and DROS the OLL's?
Can anyone else go in and DROS them?
Do they have to go back to the dealer?
Can the dealer keep them, install LPK and stock, then sell them to 19 yr old?

Bagelthief
05-27-2009, 6:56 PM
someone please address this...

ke6guj
05-27-2009, 7:02 PM
Hypothetical situation:

19 yr old orders two stripped OLL's from an out of state dealer.
Dealer accepts payment and ships lowers to Calif FFL
Calif FFL wont DROS to 19 yr old FFL says you have to be 21CA FFL is correct about this.

What happens next?
Can the 19 yr olds father go in and DROS the OLL's?
Can anyone else go in and DROS them?whoever the FFL will allow to DROS. FFL has to be worried about "straw" sales, so they can decline the sale if it is too fishy for them. Father would be the best bet, since he could just intrafamily transfer it to you later on. Anyone else, and you'd need to do a PPT to transfer it to you, and you'd run into the same problem trying to PPT DROS a stripped receiver through the dealer. It'd still be an "other" (unless that anyone built it up first) and you have to 21 for the dealer to transfer it to you.

Do they have to go back to the dealer?If the local FFL won't transfer it to someone, what other option do you want? You could maybe sell it to the FFL to get some of your money back.
Can the dealer keep them, install LPK and stock, then sell them to 19 yr old?debatable. Could be considered unlicensed manufacturing, and not all dealers are willing to do that.

CHS
05-27-2009, 8:14 PM
Basically, everything that KE6GUJ said is spot on.

If you're a 19 year old and ordered a stripped lower for a transfer without doing your research first, then I really can't have much sympathy for you. When it comes to guns, KNOW THE LAW.

An FFL technically could install a buttstock for you and transfer it as a rifle, however he can only do this rarely and not part of his normal business practices without getting a manufacturing license.

Also, technically, you could install a buttstock yourself on those lowers without the FFL needing a business license. Not many FFL's will go along with this, and they'll most likely want you buying the buttstocks from them. Frankly, I think that's fair and good.

lorax3
05-27-2009, 9:19 PM
FFL has to be worried about "straw" sales, so they can decline the sale if it is too fishy for them.
Father would be the best bet, since he could just intrafamily transfer it to you later on.

Can someone 18-21 even own a stripped lower?

Could the stripped lower be transfered via intra-familial without first installing a butt-stock, as it is neither a longgun nor a handgun?

I through straw purchases dealt with what wether or not the final receiving party would be eligible to own/posses the firearm and not purchase. It would seem to be more of who is the "actual buyer of this firearm" and less a straw purchase if someone 18-21 can own a lower.

ke6guj
05-27-2009, 9:26 PM
yes, an 18-20 year old can own a stripped lower, or a handgun. They just can't buy one from a dealer. A parent can legally purchase a handgun or stripped lower with the intent of giving it to an 18-20 year old, as a gift. It specifically states that this is legal on the 4473. In CA, when gifting the handgun, you have to file the intrafamily/op-law form to record the transfer, but it is legal.

The issue with the OP's situation is that the OP paid for the firearm, and now a 3rd party is going to DROS the firearm and then give it to the OP. Very easily could be considered a straw purchase.

hawk1
05-27-2009, 9:28 PM
Can someone 18-21 even own a stripped lower?

Yes. Someone 18-21 can even own a handgun.

Could the stripped lower be transfered via intra-familial without first installing a butt-stock, as it is neither a longgun nor a handgun?

Again yes. See above. A person 18-21 can own handguns.



...

FS00008
05-27-2009, 9:51 PM
CA FFL is correct about this.

whoever the FFL will allow to DROS. FFL has to be worried about "straw" sales, so they can decline the sale if it is too fishy for them. Father would be the best bet, since he could just intrafamily transfer it to you later on. Anyone else, and you'd need to do a PPT to transfer it to you, and you'd run into the same problem trying to PPT DROS a stripped receiver through the dealer. It'd still be an "other" (unless that anyone built it up first) and you have to 21 for the dealer to transfer it to you.

If the local FFL won't transfer it to someone, what other option do you want? You could maybe sell it to the FFL to get some of your money back.
debatable. Could be considered unlicensed manufacturing, and not all dealers are willing to do that.



The issue is not with the PPT DROS form, rather with the Federal ATF 4473 form. The DROS PPT form is still fine to PPT stripped lowers to under 21 year olds from what I read.

lorax3
05-27-2009, 10:01 PM
Yes. Someone 18-21 can even own a handgun.

Again yes. See above. A person 18-21 can own handguns



Yes, I am more than aware that someone under 21 can own a handgun. I am not inquiring about handguns. However I am getting more into the federal and state definitions of a longgun/handgun.

1. As above, could you use the intra-familial op on a stripped lower(no butt-stock), as it is neither a handgun or a longgun? I would assume the answer is no, as it would not meet the "longgun" definition, although I am not sure if the "shoulder fired" is defined by Title 18 or CA PC.
If it is Title 18, then it should not matter as the op law form has nothing to do with the feds. If it is PC on the other hand, then a stripped lower would be neither a handgun or longgun in the eyes of the op law form.


If the answer to #1 is yes, #2 is irrelevant.

2.If not, then how would someone 18-21 come into owning a stripped lower, assuming they didnt remove it from an already build rifle.

Not to thread jack, but this thread was resolved in the third post.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-27-2009, 10:03 PM
The issue is not with the PPT DROS form, rather with the Federal ATF 4473 form. The DROS PPT form is still fine to PPT stripped lowers to under 21 year olds from what I read.

ke6guj was just pointing out that a PPT would have to go through the Dealer/DROS process, during which the FFL would still be forbidden from releasing the stripped lower to anybody under the age of 21.

Yes, I am more than aware that someone under 21 can own a handgun. I am not inquiring about handguns. However I am getting more into the federal and state definitions of a longgun/handgun.

1. As above, could you use the intra-familial op on a stripped lower, as it is neither a handgun or a longgun? I would assume the answer is no, as it would not meet the "longgun" definition, although I am not sure if the "shoulder fired" is defined by Title 18 or CA PC.
If it is Title 18, then it should not matter as the op law form has nothing to do with the feds. If it is PC on the other hand, then a stripped lower would be neither a handgun or longgun in the eyes of the op law form.

If the answer to #1 is yes, #2 is irrelevant.

2.If not, then how would someone 18-21 come into owning a stripped lower, assuming they didnt remove it from an already build rifle.

Not to thread jack, but this thread was resolved in the third post.

There is no prohibition on 18-20 year olds owning stripped lowers. Stripped rifle lowers are still considered long guns, but they just aren't "rifles" or "shotguns". FFL's are prohibited from transfering both handguns and long guns to people under the age of 21. However, there is an exception that allows FFL's to transfer long guns to people under the age of 21 if the long gun is a rifle or shotgun.

California does not consider stripped rifle lowers to be handguns, so they can be gifted by parents to children without filling out the DOJ form. The form is only for handguns, not for rifles, shotguns or any other type of long gun.

Jicko
05-27-2009, 10:14 PM
How would it be "straw purchase"?? There have to be a "purchase" (a sales) before it can be a "straw".... no DROS (dealer register of sales), then there is no "purchase".....

Paying for it is one thing.... having it officially DROS is another....

The payer of a 50 OLLs group-buy is NOT purchasing 50 OLLs, he is just paying for others, same as lending money....

The OP can be paying for the OLLs for his dad.... just lending his dad some money or credit or whatsoever... his dad is the real buyer.... ok now?

Mssr. Eleganté
05-27-2009, 10:23 PM
How would it be "straw purchase"??

The OP can be paying for the OLLs for his dad.... just lending his dad some money or credit or whatsoever... his dad is the real buyer.... ok now?

The way you descibe it is fine. But the OP already said that he paid for the lowers and the lowers are really for him. When person "A" pays for a firearm, but then person "B" fills out the paperwork at the FFL because person "A" is prohibited from buying firearms from the FFL, and then person "B" gives the firearm to person "A", you have the textbook definition of a straw purchase.

lorax3
05-27-2009, 10:27 PM
Stripped rifle lowers are still considered long guns, but they just aren't "rifles" or "shotguns".

Ah, okay. So it seems longguns are more a class, which contain "rifles", "shotguns" and "other". Is there any definition in the PC of a longgun? I didn't see one; it seems it would be any firearm other than a pistol. And the op-law form would work as "longguns" are paperless, if the form was for "rifles" and "shotguns" it would be a different story. Interesting.......

Thanks.

CHS
05-27-2009, 10:33 PM
Stripped lowers *ARE NOT* considered long guns.

*PERIOD*

Stripped lowers are considered title 1 firearms which can be built as long guns, rifles, shotguns, or handguns.

In CA, the DROS system does not recognize anything other than "long guns" or "handguns", so most stripped lowers are transferred as "long guns", even though they are not.

On the 4473 they are transferred properly, as "other" title 1 firearms that are not long guns.

FS00008
05-27-2009, 10:46 PM
Stripped lowers *ARE NOT* considered long guns.

*PERIOD*

Stripped lowers are considered title 1 firearms which can be built as long guns, rifles, shotguns, or handguns.

In CA, the DROS system does not recognize anything other than "long guns" or "handguns", so most stripped lowers are transferred as "long guns", even though they are not.

On the 4473 they are transferred properly, as "other" title 1 firearms that are not long guns.


Based on this it could be transferred through a dealer as a PPT only not as a new sale (Totally excluding 4473) and therefore an FFL could technically release it...

Right?


Or to short circuit all of that, someone could throw a stock on a stripped lower and then there is no issue.


Right?

Mssr. Eleganté
05-27-2009, 10:49 PM
Is there any definition in the PC of a longgun? I didn't see one; it seems it would be any firearm other than a pistol.

Yep, that's almost the exact wording used in the Penal Code in question...

CPC 12078(c)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.



And the op-law form would work as "longguns" are paperless, if the form was for "rifles" and "shotguns" it would be a different story. Interesting.......

Correct. California exemptions to FFL transfer requirements use the wording "a firearm that is not a handgun". This is the case in both family transfers that don't require reporting to CalDOJ and 50 year old C&R long gun transfters between Californians that don't require reporting to CalDOJ.

The Feds use the term "rifle or shotgun" in both the exemption to FFL's selling firearms to people between the ages of 18-21 and the exemption to selling guns to people from a different State.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Based on this it could be transferred through a dealer as a PPT only not as a new sale (Totally excluding 4473) and therefore an FFL could technically release it...

Right?

FFL's have to fill out a 4473 whenever they transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person. They can't skip the 4473 just because the firearm is not being sold by the FFL. And the 4473 doesn't really hold the power that stops FFL's from releasing non-rifles and non-shotguns to people under the age of 21. Federal law forbids such transfers by FFL's. The 4473 is just a form that mentions this.

CHS
05-27-2009, 10:55 PM
Based on this it could be transferred through a dealer as a PPT only not as a new sale (Totally excluding 4473) and therefore an FFL could technically release it...

Right?


Wrong. Very wrong. A PPT must still obey all federal transfer laws. I can't PPT a handgun to a person 18yo, so why would I be allowed to PPT a non-rifle or non-shotgun title 1 firearm to an 18yo?

An FFL cannot release a non-rifle or a non-shotgun to ANYONE under 21yo. Period. Federal law. The *ONLY* exception is a gift from a parent to a child that is an FFL-exempt transfer. Since a PPT involves an FFL, it cannot be done.

Why do you think that a PPT excludes the 4473? In some states it does, but those transfer's are still subject to federal laws regarding transfers of non-rifle and non-shotgun Title 1 firearms to those under 21yo. Again, the only exception is a parent or grandparent to a child or grandchild.


Or to short circuit all of that, someone could throw a stock on a stripped lower and then there is no issue.

Right?

Correct.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-27-2009, 11:14 PM
Why do you think that a PPT excludes the 4473? In some states it does, but those transfer's are still subject to federal laws regarding transfers of non-rifle and non-shotgun Title 1 firearms to those under 21yo. Again, the only exception is a parent or grandparent to a child or grandchild.

Just to be clear, all types of firearm transfers that don't require the use of an FFL are exempt from the "rifle or shotgun" restrictions. The Federal laws regarding transfers of non-rifle and non-shotgun Title 1 firearms to those under 21 only apply to transfers involving an FFL. So a 30 year old Nevada resident could legally sell a stripped lower to an 18 year old Nevada resident. And in California, a husband can transfer a stripped lower to his 18 year old wife, and a California non-FFL can transfer a 50+ year old C&R long gun that is not a rifle or shotgun to an 18 year old California non-FFL.

I only mention this because it wasn't clear if you were refering to private transfers in other States or to PPT's in California when you said "those transfers".

tenpercentfirearms
05-28-2009, 5:42 AM
I personally would have no problem throwing a buttstock on the lower and just marking it down as a long gun or just DROSing it to your mom, dad, grandma, or grandpa. I don't consider family straw purchases because it is legal for the parents to do so. Otherwise the 12 year old that came in the other day with his mother and picked out a .243 with his money and had mom DROS it would be a straw purchase. The old timer that comes in to DROS but has his wife write the check would be a straw purchase.

If the two parties can legally transfer it after they leave the store, I don't consider it a straw purchase. If it is a gift, it is not a straw purchase. If it is a felon who is trying to illegally obtain the firearm, it is a straw purchase.

We have gone over straw sales and sometimes, there is just no telling what my duty is. Screw it. I will just do what I think is right.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-29-2009, 11:14 PM
...or just DROSing it to your mom, dad, grandma, or grandpa. I don't consider family straw purchases because it is legal for the parents to do so. Otherwise the 12 year old that came in the other day with his mother and picked out a .243 with his money and had mom DROS it would be a straw purchase.

If the two parties can legally transfer it after they leave the store, I don't consider it a straw purchase.

Just letting you know, but the Feds do consider such sales to be straw purchases. I used to think that straw sales could only occur if the real buyer was prohibited from owning firearms. But BATFE now says that staw sales include sales where the real purchaser is legally able to purchase the firearm from you, but just doesn't want their name associated with the sale. BATFE also says that any sale where the real purchaser is prohibited from buying the firearm from you is a straw sale.

So a kid who picked out the .243 with his own money but had his mother DROS the gun to her would be considered a straw sale by BATFE, even though it is legal for her to give the gun to her kid. If the mother buys the gun for her son as a "bona fide gift", then the sale is legal. But if the kid pays for the gun himself and has his mother DROS it to get around the prohibition on FFL's selling guns to minors, then it is a straw sale. That's according to BATFE anyways.

Plisk
05-29-2009, 11:21 PM
Here's what I did. I'm 18 years old, my father is 52. When I bought my stripped lower via PTP, we transfered it to my father. Now that my rifle has it's stock assembly it is now a longarm and can be transfered to me. Which is what we're going to do.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Here's what I did. I'm 18 years old, my father is 52. When I bought my stripped lower via PTP, we transfered it to my father. Now that my rifle has it's stock assembly it is now a longarm and can be transfered to me. Which is what we're going to do.

If you and your father are both California residents then you don't even need to put a stock assembly on the OLL first. It's only FFL's that are forbidden from transfering non-rifles and non-shotguns to people under the age of 21.

Since father to son transfers don't require an FFL within California, you don't need do worry about putting the OLL into "rifle" configuration before your dad gives it to you. A father can give a stripped lower to his 1 day old son in California. And he can give a handgun to his 18 year old son in California. FFL's on the other hand can only transfer firearms to people 21 and up, unless the firearm is a rifle or shotgun which can be transfered to people 18 and up.