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View Full Version : Reloading w/ condor safe bullets: verboten?


otteray
05-27-2009, 3:27 PM
So I bought some expensive 45-70 Barnes bullets to reload for pig hunting in the condor zone.
Now, someone said that I cannot use reloads; but must use only those factory rounds blessed by the anti-hunters and certified by F&G.
Since this is the Twilight Zone state we live in, will a Rod Serling please, step forward and tell me what is real?:TFH:

sorensen440
05-27-2009, 3:29 PM
Thats bull you can use lead free reloads

bohoki
05-27-2009, 3:38 PM
yea aren't frangables non lead too

Fjold
05-27-2009, 3:38 PM
The bullets are certified by F&G

7x57
05-27-2009, 3:40 PM
Thats bull you can use lead free reloads

Yeah, as long as the bullets themselves are blessed by the all-wise state you're good. What you can't do is use non-lead bullets the state didn't approve, because that Is Not Allowed.

7x57

ke6guj
05-27-2009, 3:43 PM
Heres the list of allowable Barnes bullets, directly from F&G.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/ammo/Barnes-Web-Info-9-3-08.pdf

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/certifiedammo.html

santacruzpaul
05-27-2009, 5:20 PM
I have heard from non official sources that only factory ammo was approved.
I called DFG in Monterey, and the chick told me it was all good using reloaded ammo with Barnes Copper in sidearms and rifles,
She also told me I could carry a sidearm with lead ammo, while legally upland game hunting with a shotgun using lead shot,
But, I would like to get the info from a warden,
Paul

Solidmch
05-27-2009, 6:13 PM
Thats bull you can use lead free reloads

I do it all the time! So does my dad and one of the Land Managers in the area.

7x57
05-27-2009, 6:31 PM
I called DFG in Monterey, and the chick told me it was all good using reloaded ammo with Barnes Copper in sidearms and rifles,
She also told me I could carry a sidearm with lead ammo, while legally upland game hunting with a shotgun using lead shot,
But, I would like to get the info from a warden,
Paul

That advice worries me. I gather one of the most common violations is having a sidearm with normal ammo. AFAIK it doesn't matter how insane the weapon/game combination; if you have it, you're treated as though you're hunting with it.

7x57

santacruzpaul
05-27-2009, 7:21 PM
That advice worries me. I gather one of the most common violations is having a sidearm with normal ammo. AFAIK it doesn't matter how insane the weapon/game combination; if you have it, you're treated as though you're hunting with it.

7x57

I explained to her that i would also be hunting other game animals, such as cottontails, and tree squirrels in season as well as upland game,
again, i would like to hear it offically.
Paul

.454
05-27-2009, 7:52 PM
again, i would like to hear it offically.
Paul

Only "approved factory loaded" is as big of a FUD as the "they will ban body armor in two weeks" B.S. but... since none of us here on CG is a game warden, I guess you'll need to call DFG again and ask another genius working the phones there.
Oh, and speaking of geniuses ...I hope you wrote down the name of the DFG representative who told you that a personal defense handgun loaded with lead ammo when hunting in the Condor Area is OK, because it is NOT.

Spyder
05-27-2009, 9:59 PM
I have heard from non official sources that only factory ammo was approved.
I called DFG in Monterey, and the chick told me it was all good using reloaded ammo with Barnes Copper in sidearms and rifles,
She also told me I could carry a sidearm with lead ammo, while legally upland game hunting with a shotgun using lead shot,
But, I would like to get the info from a warden,
Paul

NOT ok. Letter of the law, even if you've got a lead round in your pocket that you're not even carrying a gun that is chambered for, it is citable.

Don't do it. =]

wellerjohn
05-27-2009, 10:10 PM
What about a shotshell for snakes? Still have not found out if it's legal.

otteray
05-28-2009, 4:17 AM
NOT ok. Letter of the law, even if you've got a lead round in your pocket that you're not even carrying a gun that is chambered for, it is citable.


Don't do it. =]

I heard the same thing; but then I saw this:

California Code of regulations, title 14, section 353.
Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game:
“Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess
any projectile containing lead in excess of the
amount permitted in subsection 353(h) and a firearm
capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting
to take any big game within the area described in
subsection 353(h). The possession of a projectile containing
lead in excess of the amount allowed in subsection
353(h) without possessing a firearm capable of
firing the projectile is not a violation of this section


California Code of regulations, title 14, section 475.
Methods of Take for Nongame Birds
and Nongame Mammals:
“Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or
possess projectiles containing more than one percent
lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any
nongame birds or nongame mammals in those areas described
in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code.
“Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess
any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount
permitted in subsection 475(f) and a firearm capable of
firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take
any nongame bird or nongame mammal within the
area described in subsection 475(f). The possession of
a projectile containing lead in excess of the amount allowed
in subsection 475(f) without possessing a firearm
capable of firing the projectile is not a violation of this
section.”

Whiskey84
05-28-2009, 6:45 AM
won't someone please think of the condors and the children?

:rolleyes:

Decoligny
05-28-2009, 7:29 AM
won't someone please think of the condors and the children?

:rolleyes:

I am.

http://www.johnnyjet.com/images/PicForNewsletterFLMarch22005AMANDAWITHLEG.JPG

santacruzpaul
05-28-2009, 4:45 PM
Talked with Jim our local game warden today who said I could quote him on this, I didn't include his last name because I didn't want to blast his name all over the Internet, but if you want it, PM me, The new rules and reg's will be out in writing soon with several changes, and he also cleared up a few things, On a couple of these points I asked him twice, to make sure I got it right.

#1 It is not (or won't be soon when in writing) legal to hunt small mammals with lead in condor country, tree squirrel and cottontails got added to the list that must be taken with non leaded ammo.

#2 While hunting large or small game it is legal to carry a sidearm loaded with lead snakeshot But, any other type of ammunition used for hunting for your sidearm must be lead free. (I know this contradicts the letter of the law, but was told it is obvious you are carrying your sidearm for self protection and not shooting game if snakeshot is chambered in your sidearm.)

#3 a. While upland game hunting with lead shot in condor country, it is legal to carry your sidearm with lead,


#3 b. But, If you are upland game hunting with lead shot during a time that over laps with hunting seasons for small mammals or larger game, What rounds you carry in your sidearm may be limited, I never got the full details on what exactly the law is on this, but was told the new reg's would cover it,

#4 handloaded ammo is legal to use as long as the projectile is listed on DFG's approved list.

Even though I got this from the horse's mouth, I want to see it or get it in writing before doing anything not complying with current rules and reg's. AND I ADVISE all of you to do the same, or you can give Jim a call and ask him yourself. I have his contact info.
Paul

Theseus
05-28-2009, 5:11 PM
So, I can hunt condor with my Federal TNT Green .223 ammo using my new AR? Sweet!

dreyna14
05-28-2009, 5:17 PM
I didn't realize that you could shoot a condor with ANY kind of 45-70 load and still not harm it. lol

.454
05-28-2009, 5:39 PM
Even though I got this from the horse's mouth, I want to see it or get it in writing before doing anything not complying with current rules and reg's. AND I ADVISE all of you to do the same, or you can give Jim a call and ask him yourself. I have his contact info.
Paul

You know CA DFG has a website (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/) and all the Condor Area B.S. regulations are covered there, right?

santacruzpaul
05-28-2009, 5:47 PM
You know CA DFG has a website (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/) and all the Condor Area B.S. regulations are covered there, right?


yes, and your point is?

otteray
05-28-2009, 6:52 PM
I for one find it dismaying that the game warden's rules differ somewhat from the the current written laws on the F&G website.
It is really sad that we have to be memorizing them and carrying a copy when going a-huntin' in order to prove compliance with this nutty set of laws and then have a warden state that they have just changed the rules again.
Sucks.

packnrat
05-28-2009, 7:09 PM
I know dumb question,

Has anyone ever found a condor that has been hurt by eating a dead creature that was killed by a hunter using a lead bullet?

.

santacruzpaul
05-28-2009, 7:36 PM
I know dumb question,

Has anyone ever found a condor that has been hurt by eating a dead creature that was killed by a hunter using a lead bullet?

.


there are no dumb questions,

and i don't have the answer to your question, but doubt it has ever happened.
Paul

.454
05-28-2009, 7:59 PM
yes, and your point is?

Well, since it is obvious you know how to read, you could go there and find all the correct answers to the questions tormenting you.

Obviously a Plant
05-28-2009, 9:02 PM
I think lead is like PCB's in that it accumulates in large predators over time from a multitude of sources. Once the condor's prey stopped driving cars with leaded gas in the early 80's, we all thought they were going to be fine. It turns out that stuff in pencils is graphite so we got to use them again and we just all had to do our part to keep those damn rodents from eating old paint chips or chewing on the alloy frames of kids' motor-cross bikes. Well with all our hard work the birds keep dying-off, so apart from industrial pollution lead bullets are the only possible culprit... I mean the only thing left we can do to save them.

M1884
05-28-2009, 9:09 PM
FWIW I work frequently with CDFG biologists and vets, and the lead issue is very real, and not just condors, either; anything that might be wont to scavenge carcasses or gut piles.

GW
05-28-2009, 11:03 PM
FWIW I work frequently with CDFG biologists and vets, and the lead issue is very real, and not just condors, either; anything that might be wont to scavenge carcasses or gut piles.

Then why do we NOT hear of lead-poisoned coyotes and dead turkey vultures?

Both are far more efficient scavengers than condors and yet there seems to be no problems.
The condor is a red herring.
This is an anti-hunting ploy and nothing more

socal2310
05-28-2009, 11:29 PM
FWIW I work frequently with CDFG biologists and vets, and the lead issue is very real, and not just condors, either; anything that might be wont to scavenge carcasses or gut piles.

The condor has been inexorably moving toward extinction since the last of the giant land animals were hunted off the continent. First we sped the process along, now we are dragging it out, but the end result will be the same given the lack of genetic variability left in the surviving population.

I would love to see a paper showing a clear, unambiguous link between environmental lead exposure, lead ammunition and animal mortality.


Ryan

M1884
05-29-2009, 12:22 AM
It's being worked on. We also see turkey vultures with high tissue lead levels. As to coyotes, I dunno...perhaps birds are more sensitive to lead; I know for a fact that they are to zinc. The latter leads to "new cage syndrome" in pet birds, when they nip off the stray bits of galvanizing.

Sunwolf
05-29-2009, 5:54 AM
Uh-huh.

Sunwolf
05-29-2009, 5:56 AM
Reminds me of the high level of DDT residues found in mountain streams.Answer?Some farmers cached DDT. long ago and and are using it now up in the mountains even though it is illegal.Right.

Sunwolf
05-29-2009, 5:59 AM
Condors?When they were all captured and bred in captivity to increase their numbers,the Indians were still seeing them up in the mountains.Who do I believe?Indians or DFG biologists?

Tanner68
05-29-2009, 6:05 AM
The condor has been inexorably moving toward extinction since the last of the giant land animals were hunted off the continent. First we sped the process along, now we are dragging it out, but the end result will be the same given the lack of genetic variability left in the surviving population.

I would love to see a paper showing a clear, unambiguous link between environmental lead exposure, lead ammunition and animal mortality.


Ryan

Here is one paper. And there is a bibliography at the end with many more papers to read.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/PDF/0217%20Parish.pdf

I don't see the CA condors ever being wild. They will be livestock always. Their food sources are gone, such as marine mammal carrion and big game from the San Joaquin valley. Ranching provided them with lots of carcasses in modern times, but that period is over too. There are too many environmental hazards in addition to lead ammo, and their habitat is gone forever. They can't make it in their little mountain redoubt without perpetual intervention.

Sunwolf
05-29-2009, 6:13 AM
Untold numbers of species have become extinct,let the Condors go.

Californio
05-29-2009, 11:06 AM
It's being worked on. We also see turkey vultures with high tissue lead levels. As to coyotes, I dunno...perhaps birds are more sensitive to lead; I know for a fact that they are to zinc. The latter leads to "new cage syndrome" in pet birds, when they nip off the stray bits of galvanizing.

Ever since the 1930's water projects were built and the natural water flows stopped, the prey and predator animals diminished in the natural habitat of the Condor. Want to save the Condor, tear all the dams down including the Hoover, let the water flow, move about 30 million people out of California and the same out of the Southwest, tear down the power lines across the back country and the prey and predator animals will come back and leave food for the idiot Condor to eat. This lead BS is just that BS the animal cannot survive in the Urban West except by artificial means, which is what is being done today.

The only way to save the Condor is to displace Man. So since that is not going to happen, the Condor is doomed to extinction plain and simple. Lead is just another ban firearms game masquerading as science. Man has destroyed the Condors habitat may it RIP, the rest is political BS.

dreyna14
05-29-2009, 1:36 PM
Untold numbers of species have become extinct,let the Condors go.

Exactly. What reprecussions will there be if they go extinct? Not a single one. Let them go. It's survival of the fittest and condors are far from fit to survive. If somebody wants to save the condors, then they can pay for it.