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View Full Version : Self Defense: What's more important?


ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 10:56 AM
I was responding to another thread and it got me thinking...every gun shop I go into, the guy behind the counter is LOC'ing. What's that guy gonna do if one second someone is looking at a hand gun, and the next second..BAM! He breaks the gun store guys nose, leaps over the counter and chokes the guy out. Most likely (unless there are other people in the store) the gun store guy would wake up to an empty cash register and an empty gun counter.

This same theory could be applied to those of you with CCW's and the UOC crowd. Especially the UOC crowd.

It's my contention that sometimes we get so stuck on carrying that gun that we forget the basic tennent of self-defense...fighting! I think that if somebody is SERIOUS about self defense, home defense, and protecting yourself and your family it is their responsibility to learn how to fight. And fighting is JUST LIKE SHOOTING...you HAVE to keep your skills up in order to be proficient. So I have a question:

How many calgunners belong to an MMA or some kind of martial arts gym? And what do you think is more important...knowing how to fight or carrying a gun on your hip (or in your jacket, or on your ankle, or whatever).

I'd like to hear some differing opinions too! :thumbsup:

FS00008
05-27-2009, 11:11 AM
Honestly, as much as I'd like to be able to carry...

I feel as if it's better to know how to fight. I used to box in HS and still practice and even do some fights just for fun with friends to keep in practice (definitely not in shape for any real competition though...).

Frijolito1988
05-27-2009, 11:21 AM
You dont have to know a martial art in order to properly defend your'self. Just basic self defense tactics which are natural born instict for alot of people. I dont care how much MMA you know if your bruce lee or Rambo, No ammount of skill is gonna save you from 2 un armed robbers/ BG. Or 3 armed BG. I would perfer to use my basic instinct / basic self defense AND carry.

DDT
05-27-2009, 11:22 AM
I was responding to another thread and it got me thinking...every gun shop I go into, the guy behind the counter is LOC'ing. What's that guy gonna do if one second someone is looking at a hand gun, and the next second..BAM! He breaks the gun store guys nose, leaps over the counter and chokes the guy out.

Most people, even people who are adequate fighters (as you can't assume to be better than a "bad guy" simply due to genetic variation) cannot defend themselves against a direct attack without warning.


It's my contention that sometimes we get so stuck on carrying that gun that we forget the basic tennent of self-defense...fighting!

If I had to choose between being as good a fighter as I am able at my age/condition and being able to be armed. I choose being armed.

1BigPea
05-27-2009, 11:22 AM
No matter how good you can fight, you're not going to do much against a couple or even a group of thugs determined to cause you harm. Pipes, bats, knives, even guns will make you go down, if you had a lead deterrent then you are better off.

Plus, there's always someone who can fight better than you.

My .02cents.

EOD3
05-27-2009, 11:23 AM
If I had to choose, it'd have to be knowing how to fight BUT, IMHO, the ability to remain "functional" in a high stress environment is far more useful. Confidence and split second decisions under pressure are your only hope of coming out on top.

Just .02

Diabolus
05-27-2009, 11:35 AM
Armed - no question.

DDT
05-27-2009, 11:47 AM
Ask romandad how far being a big, strong, skilled fighin' guy will get you against 3 or 4 assailants....

ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 2:19 PM
I think self-defense should be taught from the ground up. Fighting is the first tennent of self defense. Obviously the best choice would be both....knowing how to fight AND being able to CCW or LOC makes someone a notably hard target.

Someone wants to steal your wallet, grabs you from behind in an RNC (rear naked choke). You have SECONDS before you're gonna pass out. And my guess is that not too many people would be able to draw, aim their gun behind their back, and nuetralize the attacker before passing out. Now, I understand that someone else is going to come back and give me an example of when a gun would be more adventatious...like I said, BOTH would be ideal.

But I still think that learning to fight should come BEFORE learning to shoot. Think about this....you can't shoot someone trying to steal your car, but I doubt you'd get into too much trouble for kicking their ***.

ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 2:20 PM
BTW...I REALLY hope nobody thinks UOC is more important than learning some fighting skills. That's just be ...:nuts:

Legasat
05-27-2009, 2:26 PM
I would actually prefer BOTH...

HotRails
05-27-2009, 2:31 PM
MMA may help a person in a bar handling a (one) drunk, but experience has taught me that assailants who intend to rob/murder/ rape are generally multiple and armed, therefore I choose to be armed.

KCM222
05-27-2009, 2:44 PM
I voted for knowing how to fight mainly because I viewed the question "What is more important..." to mean if you were to grant me either MMA skills or the RTKB I would choose the former.

Obviously having a gun is a more powerful defense in just about any situation, but what is important is what you have at the time of an attack. There are areas where we can't legally take firearms and a firearm can be taken away (physically, or by neutering your rights via legislation). You can't take away someone's knowledge of self defense nearly as easily.

So if you're offering me a tool + training vs knowledge + ability, I'll take the one that can't be taken away as easily. In effect you become the tool.

There, I said it; Chuck you're a tool. (j/k)

ETA: if you're going to grant the RTKB unhindered I would still probably take the fighting ability because 1. you can always add the firearm, and 2. your last line of defense is not reliant on a weapon that can run out of ammo, jam, FTF, etc.

nukechaser
05-27-2009, 3:21 PM
Fighting skills, with or without guns, should be refined, practiced and honed. Part of that skillset is situational awareness. Whether one carries LOC, CCW, or UOC, walking around with a firearms on one's person while your head is elsewhere is asking for trouble. Condition white is deadly.

Many a motorcycle rider will tell you that they are extra alert to traffic hazards while on two wheels, because of the inherent danger. Same could be said for carrying vs. not carrying.

Given the limited scope of the poll question (since I believe use of a sidearm is a fighting skill) I'd have to go with the carrying/shooting skills choice.

In any skill that requires clear thought, reasonable judgement and seriousness of task, be it flying aircraft, driving a car, or carrying a firearm for defense (regardless of your carrying "flavor") you should always be alert and cognizant of potential threats.

In the scenario given above, about the gun shop owner being jumped for his side arm, it would seem that a lack of due diligence was the reason for loss of control of his sidearm and the other items taken. Yes, I know it was a hypothetical, but that's where I would point as the weak spot.

sorensen440
05-27-2009, 3:22 PM
depends on the situation

gose
05-27-2009, 3:37 PM
JMLIOtBLqoU

HondaMasterTech
05-27-2009, 5:07 PM
The gun is the great equalizer of mankind.

Maltese Falcon
05-27-2009, 5:12 PM
What is that quote? "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

pnkssbtz
05-27-2009, 5:31 PM
Being confident in your self and having the proper mindset to survive and overcome the adversary is more important than having the most effective weapon.

lioneaglegriffin
05-27-2009, 6:31 PM
You dont have to know a martial art in order to properly defend your'self. Just basic self defense tactics which are natural born instict for alot of people. I dont care how much MMA you know if your bruce lee or Rambo, No ammount of skill is gonna save you from 2 un armed robbers/ BG. Or 3 armed BG. I would perfer to use my basic instinct / basic self defense AND carry.

+1 i got into a fight with a black belt, either i am a natural fighter or the guy needs to get his money back for his lessons.

oh and he wasn't lying about having a black belt i saw him kick a guys chest and give him a hairline fracture. He knew something.

maybe thats why i won because i knew he had a martial arts background and i wasn't going to fuk with that. I mostly did grappling and floor fighting (which i guess would be like pro-wrestling not the fake lol.).he tried to kick me i caught his leg then kicked him in his tail bone then threw him on the ground. he then crawled behind me i tripped him when he had me in a hold from behind, and i threw my shoulder into his chest when we fell on the ground for *erm* more effect. Then i put my knees on his legs so he wouldn't be able to kick me, get up, or squirm. Then i pinned both his wrist with my left hand and proceeded to bash his face with my right. I have no idea what i did or what discipline its from but it worked as he gave up once his face got messed up. Aftermath he had broken jaw, busted lip bloody nose, and a shiner on his left eye, and i dislocated his shoulder (i assume from the fall).

if someone who knows fighting can tell me what the hell i did i'd appreciate it.

GoodEyeSniper
05-27-2009, 6:45 PM
I'd say training for running sprints and endurance would be more beneficial than either.

Being able to outrun any opponent is more likely to get you away unharmed than trying to wrestle with some dude who might have a knife under his jacket, or drawing on an assailant who's buddy has flanked you without you seeing him, etc...

RomanDad
05-27-2009, 7:06 PM
Ask romandad how far being a big, strong, skilled fighin' guy will get you against 3 or 4 assailants....

Totally overrated.

Ill take a gun thanks....

TheBundo
05-27-2009, 8:01 PM
One thing not mentioned, though it certainly doesn't come into play all that often, is the ability to diffuse a situation, particularily one that is just a matter of heated tempers, and not someone with intent to harm or rob.

All in all, armed becomes more important as you age and the Superman wears off of you. :)

DDT
05-27-2009, 8:02 PM
All in all, armed becomes more important as you age and the Superman wears off of you. :)

It is kinda funny that all the kids in their 20s and 30s still think they can take on the world single handed. :D

Alphahookups
05-27-2009, 8:05 PM
Haha, that Indiana Jones fight says it all.

Firearm hands down...I don't care how badass you are, you can't outrun a bullet.

Alphahookups
05-27-2009, 8:06 PM
It is kinda funny that all the kids in their 20s and 30s still think they can take on the world single handed. :D

Not me :D
....now with a gun :confused:

GoodEyeSniper
05-27-2009, 8:14 PM
One thing not mentioned, though it certainly doesn't come into play all that often, is the ability to diffuse a situation, particularily one that is just a matter of heated tempers, and not someone with intent to harm or rob.

All in all, armed becomes more important as you age and the Superman wears off of you. :)

Yup. That was pretty much all the self defense my father taught me, and it was very useful. I grew up in some rougher neighborhoods, especially for being a skinny white kid. I got pretty lucky. Never been in a fight, or been jumped. Though I know plenty of friends who had. Plenty of would-be bully situations, were turned around in mere moments with the right words.

HowardW56
05-27-2009, 8:18 PM
I was responding to another thread and it got me thinking...every gun shop I go into, the guy behind the counter is LOC'ing. What's that guy gonna do if one second someone is looking at a hand gun, and the next second..BAM! He breaks the gun store guys nose, leaps over the counter and chokes the guy out. Most likely (unless there are other people in the store) the gun store guy would wake up to an empty cash register and an empty gun counter.

This same theory could be applied to those of you with CCW's and the UOC crowd. Especially the UOC crowd.

It's my contention that sometimes we get so stuck on carrying that gun that we forget the basic tennent of self-defense...fighting! I think that if somebody is SERIOUS about self defense, home defense, and protecting yourself and your family it is their responsibility to learn how to fight. And fighting is JUST LIKE SHOOTING...you HAVE to keep your skills up in order to be proficient. So I have a question:

How many calgunners belong to an MMA or some kind of martial arts gym? And what do you think is more important...knowing how to fight or carrying a gun on your hip (or in your jacket, or on your ankle, or whatever).

I'd like to hear some differing opinions too! :thumbsup:

I'll admit that I'm getting too old to fight... I'd give someone hell for the first 30 seconds, then if adrenalin doesn't take over, I'm screwed.... My shoulders and knees are shot...

Table Rock Arms
05-27-2009, 8:20 PM
+1 i got into a fight with a black belt, either i am a natural fighter or the guy needs to get his money back for his lessons.

oh and he wasn't lying about having a black belt i saw him kick a guys chest and give him a hairline fracture. He knew something.

maybe thats why i won because i knew he had a martial arts background and i wasn't going to fuk with that. I mostly did grappling and floor fighting (which i guess would be like pro-wrestling not the fake lol.).he tried to kick me i caught his leg then kicked him in his tail bone then threw him on the ground. he then crawled behind me i tripped him when he had me in a hold from behind, and i threw my shoulder into his chest when we fell on the ground for *erm* more effect. Then i put my knees on his legs so he wouldn't be able to kick me, get up, or squirm. Then i pinned both his wrist with my left hand and proceeded to bash his face with my right. I have no idea what i did or what discipline its from but it worked as he gave up once his face got messed up. Aftermath he had broken jaw, busted lip bloody nose, and a shiner on his left eye, and i dislocated his shoulder (i assume from the fall).

if someone who knows fighting can tell me what the hell i did i'd appreciate it.

It sounds like what you did was get into a fight with someone who has a black bet in something closer to dancing than fighting. Unfortunately that is what many martial arts are.

TheBundo
05-27-2009, 8:24 PM
I'll admit that I'm getting too old to fight... I'd give someone hell for the first 30 seconds, then if adrenalin doesn't take over, I'm screwed.... My shoulders and knees are shot...

Unfortunately, that also means I'm too old to run very far. So I don't run, because if I do, my 30 seconds of fight is used up. Of course, if the fight or flight would be against / from a full grown grizzly bear, I'll definitely try to talk him out of it :)

N6ATF
05-27-2009, 8:26 PM
The... most... effective... form... of... self... defense.

TheBundo
05-27-2009, 8:27 PM
It sounds like what you did was get into a fight with someone who has a black bet in something closer to dancing than fighting. Unfortunately that is what many martial arts are.

Different styles can throw a great fighter off too. Remember how much trouble Ali had in 3 fights with the weird bobbing of Joe Frazier? Yet George Foreman clobbered Frazier, but couldn't handle Ali.

Table Rock Arms
05-27-2009, 8:33 PM
Different styles can throw a great fighter off too. Remember how much trouble Ali had in 3 fights with the weird bobbing of Joe Frazier? Yet George Foreman clobbered Frazier, but couldn't handle Ali.

Your talking about Boxing. I was talking about fighting. two very different things.

M. Sage
05-27-2009, 8:42 PM
The poll is flawed. It assumes the two are mutually exclusive.

ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 8:58 PM
The poll is flawed. It assumes the two are mutually exclusive.

No it doesn't....it simply asks which of the two things are more important. Ideally self-defense minded people would train in BOTH. My point in this thread was that a lot of us focus so much on our firearms that we forget that, sometimes, just sometimes, we won't get to use them. And we still need to be able to defend ourselves.

lioneaglegriffin
05-27-2009, 9:35 PM
It sounds like what you did was get into a fight with someone who has a black bet in something closer to dancing than fighting. Unfortunately that is what many martial arts are.

like i said, he should have demanded a refund of his money. I don't think i was that good it was kidna clumsy on the fly stuff. i just did what felt right at the time. but like i said he knew something, maybe it was his execution? he telegrpahed the kick i caught BTW.

MrClamperSir
05-27-2009, 9:41 PM
It depends entirely on the threat. Some threats warrant you speak stern and loud, others warrant you engage physically and some just flat out need the power of a firearm. It's to vague of a question for ja "one size fits all" answer. In short be prepared and aware and only use minimum force necessary to combat any threat leveled at you or your family.

H2H
05-27-2009, 9:47 PM
Krav Maga works good. We train in both: hand to hand fighting ( kickboxing, ground fighting..etc) and weapons handling ( gun, knife,stick...) as well as multiple opponents and 3rd party protection/car jacking...come check us out on Olympic at the West L.A HQ.

wutzu
05-27-2009, 10:46 PM
As Heinlein put it: There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.

nick
05-27-2009, 10:52 PM
How about both? One doesn't contradict the other, you know. I'd avoid a fight if I could help it though, so I'd prefer a semi-peaceful resolution a gun could allow (smart people don't continue to be itching for a fight when staring at the business end of a barrel). Still, it doesn't mean a gunis the ultimate solution, it's just another tool. A good tool, but just that - a tool, one of many.

N6ATF
05-27-2009, 11:46 PM
Speak softly and carry a big boomstick.

Table Rock Arms
05-28-2009, 7:11 AM
like i said, he should have demanded a refund of his money. I don't think i was that good it was kidna clumsy on the fly stuff. i just did what felt right at the time. but like i said he knew something, maybe it was his execution? he telegrpahed the kick i caught BTW.

Your right. I wasn't putting you down at all. There are many variables that come into play in a fight. one of them is who keeps there cool under stress. In this case it was you.

The other thing that I was getting at is that many martial arts do not train at full speed or full contact. And as a result, they are basically dancing. Most all of the guys who train that way would get worked by an average high school wrestler.

H2H
05-28-2009, 7:30 AM
check out a muy thai, KB or Krav Maga sparring session..guys get hit hard..

lioneaglegriffin
05-28-2009, 8:49 AM
Your right. I wasn't putting you down at all. There are many variables that come into play in a fight. one of them is who keeps there cool under stress. In this case it was you.

The other thing that I was getting at is that many martial arts do not train at full speed or full contact. And as a result, they are basically dancing. Most all of the guys who train that way would get worked by an average high school wrestler.

no i didn't think you were putting me down. As far as not training at full speed i thought that sparring with someone on your level was apart of the the training. I know sparring isn't always full speed because they don't want either partner to get hurt, but what you say reminds me of king of the hill where Dale asks someone he's about ot fight to grab his arm at a specifc place so he can do a move on him.

The moral of the story is i suppose as the saying goes The enemy gets a vote

pullnshoot25
05-28-2009, 9:00 AM
BTW...I REALLY hope nobody thinks UOC is more important than learning some fighting skills. That's just be ...:nuts:

I agree. This is why I pack steel as well.

Greg-Dawg
05-28-2009, 9:11 AM
I have a gun because I'm too lazy to kick butt.

I was responding to another thread and it got me thinking...every gun shop I go into, the guy behind the counter is LOC'ing. What's that guy gonna do if one second someone is looking at a hand gun, and the next second..BAM! He breaks the gun store guys nose, leaps over the counter and chokes the guy out. Most likely (unless there are other people in the store) the gun store guy would wake up to an empty cash register and an empty gun counter.

Typically there's more than one guy behind the counter with a gun(s).

Glock22Fan
05-28-2009, 9:21 AM
BTW...I REALLY hope nobody thinks UOC is more important than learning some fighting skills. That's just be ...:nuts:

One day, hopefully, you will grow old. Then you might change your mind about the relative importance. It wouldn't matter how many fighting skills I had learned, my body is no longer up to putting most of them into action against the typical criminal.

My (British Special Forces) unarmed combat instructor told me "The first, and only, rule of self defense is to get the first blow in -- and kill them with it."

There comes a time when the only practical way to do this is with a firearm.

nick
05-28-2009, 9:21 AM
no i didn't think you were putting me down. As far as not training at full speed i thought that sparring with someone on your level was apart of the the training. I know sparring isn't always full speed because they don't want either partner to get hurt, but what you say reminds me of king of the hill where Dale asks someone he's about ot fight to grab his arm at a specifc place so he can do a move on him.

The moral of the story is i suppose as the saying goes The enemy gets a vote

From my observations (I've practiced Shotokan for about 20 years, stopped about 8 years ago, and my nieces practice it now) most of the martial classes I've seen in L.A. are worthless. They're more fitness classes than, well, martial arts ones. Moreover, it seems that the emphasis has been shifting for the past 20-30 years, from martial arts to self-defense to fitness with "feeling good" about your ability to defend yourself.

When I heard how my elder niece got her first belt, I recommended to change her karate class. But then, the new one wasn't much better. We were considering training her at home whena friend of the family moved to L.A. and opened his dojo here, he still teaches it as a martial art.

The moral of the story is, everything isn't what it used to be 30 years ago. I'm old :p

nick
05-28-2009, 9:23 AM
I agree. This is why I pack steel as well.

Steel shot when you're UOCing your shotgun at Denny's? :)

N6ATF
05-28-2009, 10:47 AM
http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/BladeTV-03.jpg

See behind head. OC katana, OC gun. One can dream.

CA_Libertarian
05-28-2009, 11:27 AM
Hand-to-hand combat is MUCH more likely to be needed in SD situations, so I voted thus.

However, I believe in the "right tool for the right job." You should hone all your self defensive tools so you can respond to any sort of threat.

If you're physically capable of hand-to-hand combat - that is, no physical impairments that would prevent this - you should learn to defend yourself. Of course, not everybody is capable. For the disabled, the firearm may be the only practical self defense tool available.

Of course, the best way to defend yourself is through prevention. Be aware of your surroundings, avoid "bad" neighborhoods, etc.

M1884
05-28-2009, 3:58 PM
There was some talk at our club that those of us who serve as range officers should consider being armed. I objected for a bunch of reasons, and honestly would rather have an ax handle within reach than a gun in a crowded situation like our range on a busy day.