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Phil3
05-26-2009, 10:00 PM
Before I venture out of my house with a bullet button equipped AR I built, using a SudDevil (OLL) receiver, I would like to be sure I am carrying all the right documents in the event I am questioned or need to prove the legality of the AR.

1) CA flowchart to determine legality of weapon.
2) Purchase receipt from a CA dealer for the lower receiver.
3) Sacramento Police memo explaining legality of bullet button.

I saw that a copy of the DROS or 4473 (?), page 1 and 3 are recommended. I never got a copy of the DROS, or any other form. I filled out all this stuff from a well known dealer, but no DROS was given to me. Should I have this?

It was also recommended to carry these docs inside a locked gun case. At first I thought that was odd, but if the police can not make you open the case (read here never to open locked case), then police can not know what you have inside the case, making it impossible to question if it (inside the case) is legal or not. However, if case is opened, it is wise to have documents to explain what has now come out of Pandora's box (the case). Do I have this right?

- Phil

5968
05-26-2009, 10:05 PM
I think just as importantly as carrying the documentation mentioned, you need to be able to explain them along with PC.

Josh3239
05-26-2009, 10:05 PM
In addition to that, I keep in my car at all times:

- Info on the 4th Amendment
- Kasler List
- Roberti-Roos
-PC 12276.1 aka SB23
- Letter from Alison regarding Harrot vs County of Kings

I think just as importantly as carrying the documentation mentioned, you need to be able to explain them along with PC.

+1, know the info you have.

cryptkeeper
05-26-2009, 10:09 PM
For some reason I thought this was going to be about Doctors in Iraq/Afghanistan carrying around M-16s. My best advice to you is to buy the OLL Guide Book. It has everything you need. If you just want the documents you listed, get a colored flow chart from the gun show at the Calguns booth if you can. It's $1 and very high quality. Print out the Sac PD memo yourself. If you want to carry a copy of the receipt go ahead, but there's nothing requiring you to carry that around. It's not really the OLL itself that will get you into trouble, it's how you configure it.

aplinker
05-26-2009, 10:56 PM
SudDevil, you say?
http://www.mcphee.com/pixlarge/11604.jpg

Before I venture out of my house with a bullet button equipped AR I built, using a SudDevil (OLL) receiver, I would like to be sure I am carrying all the right documents in the event I am questioned or need to prove the legality of the AR.

sreiter
05-27-2009, 7:57 AM
my threads

Hozr
05-27-2009, 9:14 AM
I saw that a copy of the DROS or 4473 (?), page 1 and 3 are recommended. I never got a copy of the DROS, or any other form. I filled out all this stuff from a well known dealer, but no DROS was given to me. Should I have this?


- Phil

Does this vary from FFL to FFL or is it required?

sorensen440
05-27-2009, 9:30 AM
I carry my drivers licence

popeye4
05-27-2009, 12:57 PM
... If you just want the documents you listed, get a colored flow chart from the gun show at the Calguns booth if you can. It's $1 and very high quality......

You can print out the Calguns flowchart from the link at the top of the page. I got mine laminated for $2 and keep it in my truck.

popeye4
05-27-2009, 1:05 PM
Being as I've never been in this situation before (having to explain to an LEO that my OLL/bullet button/10 rd mag AR is in fact, legal), this is just speculation on my part. But if the flowchart doesn't convince the LEO that your rifle is legal, all the other documents probably won't, either. At some point in the encounter, you have to be able to recognize if you are dealing with someone who is not interested in being convinced, shut up, and deal with it at a higher level. No sense in arguing with a stop sign, and you just might say something you'll regret later.

aermotor
05-27-2009, 1:29 PM
I agree on some level with you popeye, it's not like the flowchart is issued by the DOJ, if the cop is out to get you, better shut it do your best to maintain your rights.

Those docs you have are more than enough, you don't need your receipt or the dros, they won't do much for you. The flowchart and sac memo are your best defense as well as just knowing the laws.

Page 1 of this document is going to be your best defense, more so than anything else out there, it clearly states the law on a detachable mag 12276.1a — http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf

4thSBCT
05-27-2009, 1:32 PM
after reading Roberti-Roos it seems to me like all this is OLL business is infact illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

fairfaxjim
05-27-2009, 1:40 PM
after reading Roberti-Roos it seems to me like all this is OLL business is infact illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

Don't tell them that, we'll all get arrested! :D

oaklander
05-27-2009, 1:43 PM
Yes, there is a later court case that makes properly configured OLL's legal.

after reading Roberti-Roos it seems to me like all this is OLL business is infact illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

Vtec44
05-27-2009, 1:46 PM
it's not like the flowchart is issued by the DOJ,

Yep, this is why I never really carry the flow chart but use it for personal reference.

oaklander
05-27-2009, 1:48 PM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that you will either get arrested, or not arrested - BUT it won't depend on what documents you have in your possession. I think carrying documents might even give you a false sense of security.

The key is to avoid LEO encounters entirely.

That being said, if you have a REGISTERED AW or an NFA weapon, by all means, carry the reg. papers with you.

But, most LEO's do not know what OLL's are.

jasonnorcal
05-27-2009, 1:48 PM
I carry my drivers license

Me 2. My feeling is that if a LEO wants to take your stuff, he will. Some people ( not just LEO's) feel they are always right and no amount of argument or documentation will change their mind.

jasonnorcal
05-27-2009, 1:50 PM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that you will either get arrested, or not arrested - BUT it won't depend on what documents you have in your possession. I think carrying documents might even give you a false sense of security.

The key is to avoid LEO encounters entirely.

That being said, if you have a REGISTERED AW or an NFA weapon, by all means, carry the reg. papers with you.

But, most LEO's do not know what OLL's are.

:thumbsup:

sreiter
05-27-2009, 1:53 PM
after reading Roberti-Roos it seems to me like all this is OLL business is infact illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

you're a list (kasler) and several legal precedents behind, most notably, the case (forgot which one) where by the ruling said every lower needs to be named by make model (no generic "all models" allowed on as the law), and when that law went into effect, the AG/DOJ/BOF (whoever) gave up the right (by law) to ever add another weapon to the list.

The named list is now set in stone (unless some other law comes up that over rides the current law)

that means all OLL (lowers not on the keslar list ) are by law legal -

the configuration of the rest of your rifle will determine if YOUR rifle meets legal requirements

Vtec44
05-27-2009, 1:58 PM
I believe Harrot vs Kings county was the ruling.

4thSBCT
05-27-2009, 2:11 PM
california is gay

oaklander
05-27-2009, 2:14 PM
Trolling now?

california is gay

fairfaxjim
05-27-2009, 2:36 PM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that you will either get arrested, or not arrested - BUT it won't depend on what documents you have in your possession. I think carrying documents might even give you a false sense of security.

The key is to avoid LEO encounters entirely.

That being said, if you have a REGISTERED AW or an NFA weapon, by all means, carry the reg. papers with you.

But, most LEO's do not know what OLL's are.
Bingo! :thumbsup:
Most LEO's will very quickly make up their own minds on what they have or don't have on their hands and you are not going to convince them otherwise with fancy presentations, smoke and mirrors, or even actual facts and common sense.
california is gayTrolling now?
Don't tell them that, we'll all get arrested! :D
Damn, I fed the troll!

4thSBCT
05-27-2009, 2:37 PM
Trolling now?

it was a joke relax. lol.

CHS
05-27-2009, 2:50 PM
I carry a copy of the OLL quick reference guide that another member had published.

However, I don't carry it for LEO interactions. I carry it for civilian interactions

Here's the thing, if a LEO stops you and is worried about your AR being an AW, he's not going to let you just start whipping out paperwork to prove to him that it's a legal gun. He'll either know it's legal, or he'll believe it's illegal. If you can quote the law off the top of your head that might help a little, but I doubt any paperwork is going to make it more so.

My biggest worry is the civilian interactions. The gun-store employee FUD-spreading know-it-all's who declare anything they don't know about or sell to be automatically ILLEGAL!!! I will quote the law and tell them how wrong they are and if they still don't get it I can just smack them with the book.