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View Full Version : Transfers and Renting guns at a range?


bear308
05-26-2009, 3:30 PM
So is renting a firearm to a party for use on your own property considered lending or giving? I have never thought so, but someone is saying that we cannot rent an HK45 with it not being on the list.

What says calguns, tried calling DOJ but the they're not pickin up as usual.

ontargetrange
05-26-2009, 6:46 PM
So is renting a firearm to a party for use on your own property considered lending or giving? I have never thought so, but someone is saying that we cannot rent an HK45 with it not being on the list.

What says calguns, tried calling DOJ but the they're not pickin up as usual.

Weird question you present --- so if I understand it and based on the following:
> you own the gun in question
> The person renting it is paying you a fee to use it and the ground he is standing on
> OR< you are lending said person on private property the temporary use of a firearm

Based on these rules - since I do this for a living - you can rent for use or lend on private property a firearm - given that the person is of legal age and is not a felon --- the fact the firearm is not on the "LIST" means nothing -- we have a number of firearms that are not now or have never been on the list and yet have discussed this at length with DOJ about their use on the property -- can't be sold or transfered to anyone other than LE -- so when they are mostly two years old I sell them out of State -- have several Sig P250's for rent now and have no other issues.

Librarian
05-26-2009, 7:07 PM
The issue is transfer. If you have to fill out 4473 and DROS, then you worry about the Roster.

Cardinal Sin
05-27-2009, 1:55 PM
From what I recall if you are lending the firearm and it is on your property,(place of business), and the firearm is within your,(reasonable), control then you are ok. If you sell, transfer or the gun leaves the property, (outside your control), then you have to abide by the DROS/transfer laws. Since the firearm is a tool of the business and not an item for sale you should be fine. Sounds like you had someone mix sale versus rental at the range.

fairfaxjim
05-27-2009, 2:35 PM
So is renting a firearm to a party for use on your own property considered lending or giving? I have never thought so, but someone is saying that we cannot rent an HK45 with it not being on the list.

What says calguns, tried calling DOJ but the they're not pickin up as usual.

I belive that technically, it is neither, it is being provided for use under your control (assuming that your or your agent remains present), on your property for monetary consideration. It would be closest to renting, but since they never actually take posession of it or leave your control, it is really part of the firearm/property use package. Even if the person is paying a separate fee for the use of the firearm, it is still part of the property (the firing range) use package and is in no way being lent, given, or transferred to the user. The list only applies to a change of ownership that occurs between a dealer and a customer, not even for private party in person transfers.

Found it:
12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(9) The loan of a firearm for the purposes of shooting at targets, if the loan occurs on the premises of a target facility which holds a business or regulatory license or on the premises of any club or organization organized for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets upon established ranges, whether public or private, if the firearm is at all times kept within the premises of the target range or on the premises of the club or organization.

It is exempt from licensed dealer requirements, hence no list!

If you sell, transfer or the gun leaves the property, (outside your control), then you have to abide by the DROS/transfer laws.

Sell or transfer yes, but the gun can be loaned for up to 30 days without any DROS or transfer required, but the borrower must have a valid HSC for handgun loans.

12078(d)(1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent loan of firearms between persons who are personally known to each other for any lawful purpose, if the loan does not exceed 30 days in duration and, when the firearm is a handgun, commencing January 1, 2003, the individual being loaned the handgun has a valid handgun safety certificate.
(2) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072, and subdivision (b) of Section 12801 shall not apply to the loan of a firearm where all of the following conditions exist:
(A) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm.
(B) The loan is for a lawful purpose.
(C) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.
(D) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code, or by Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.
(E) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(F) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

12081(b) is for entertainment permits for weapons.

ke6guj
05-27-2009, 2:57 PM
I think this is where the question arises,

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

So, you'd have to find an exemption for lending in CHAPTER 1.3. UNSAFE HANDGUNS which the following appears to be.

12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

bear308
05-28-2009, 10:29 AM
thanks guys, we did get a call thru to DOJ and they concurred with what we always thought. Just had someone get a bug up their rear about it, and wanted to make sure since I hadn't in the past.

Cardinal Sin
05-28-2009, 11:08 AM
Roger that. Just didnt sound right.