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View Full Version : Santa Clara County Deputy stops UOCer for "loaded check"


Liberty1
05-25-2009, 9:31 PM
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/26316.html

posted by "bad ace"

Had my second run in with the Santa Clara county sheriffs department today. It went very smoothly.

I passed the deputy while walking the dog. He was outside of his cruiser on the side of the road questioning some rough looking 20 year old on a BMX bike (thought I heard something about dope). As I passed he noticed my sidearm and walked up to me. Conversation went like this.

Deputy: Excuse me sir, I need to take a quick second of your time.
Me: (healing dog and having him sit)
Deputy: Hi how ya' doin' names Kevin. (firm handshake)
Me: (gave name)
Deputy: Nice to meet you. Unloaded right?
Me: Yes sir.
Deputy: OK mind if I check real quick?
Me: Sure sure.
Deputy: Pull it out for me.
Me: You want me to do it?
Deputy: Yeah go ahead...
Me: ( I unholster my Beretta 92FS, open the slide and tilt the open action toward him)
Right on. (when he saw the empty chamber)
Me: No brass?
Deputy: No brass. Can you flip it over so I can see the backside? Pull that mag out for me. Alright.
( I holster my sidearm )
<small talk starts>

Total time of 'e' check: 20 seconds. I maintained control of my property the entire time. I wasn't asked for ID and no serial number check. I call this a win for UOC in Santa Clara county (Cupertino).

You can find the audio here http://truelibertypodcast.com/audio/e_check_may_25_2009.mp3

Turo
05-25-2009, 9:35 PM
awesome! wish all the UOC stories were this short and sweet. I may start to do it.

redbull addict
05-25-2009, 9:36 PM
Nice!

N6ATF
05-25-2009, 9:38 PM
awesome! wish all the UOC stories were this short and sweet. I may start to do it.

I don't. Can't wait for the day when we are not treated as guilty until proven innocent by ALL peace officers we encounter.

odysseus
05-25-2009, 9:39 PM
So you keep an empty mag in the well when carrying?

Texas Boy
05-25-2009, 9:40 PM
Wow - very professional on both sides. The deputy performed his duty in a polite and courteous manor, didn't draw his weapon or over react, etc. Hopefully this means CA LEO's are getting the msg that UOCers are not a threat.

bwiese
05-25-2009, 9:42 PM
Individual is lucky.

We are hearing of the presence of a Santa Clara Cty memo that says UOCer situations can be treated like "full felony stops" - meaning armed confrontation on the part of the deputy/ies.

Frankly if I were to remotely consider UOCing in SC County, I'd at least have a vest or trauma plate on.

Gio
05-25-2009, 9:43 PM
So you keep an empty mag in the well when carrying?

Sounded like it to me, I was under the assumption that we had to carry without a mag in the magwell evenif empty. I guess not :confused: Also are the school zones enforced on weekends and holidays as well? I would open carry but I live near school zones at both my residencies.

-Gio

Gio
05-25-2009, 9:45 PM
Individual is lucky.

We are hearing of the presence of a Santa Clara Cty memo that says UOCer situations can be treated like "full felony stops" - meaning armed confrontation on the part of the deputy/ies.

Frankly if I were to remotely consider UOCing in SC County, I'd at least have a vest or trauma plate on.

FOr reals? Whatever happened to Innocent until proven Guilty? If a Officer has a right to Felony stop you for a openly carried firearm then that is just ridiculous! Oh well, better get my vest soon then ;)

-Gio

Liberty1
05-25-2009, 9:46 PM
...Hopefully this means CA LEO's are getting the msg that UOCers are not a threat.

Some are and some won't listen. Still a very civil exchange considering the unconstitutionality of PC 12031.

Liberty1
05-25-2009, 9:48 PM
Also are the school zones enforced on weekends and holidays as well?

-Gio

K-12 24/7

gotshotgun?
05-25-2009, 10:36 PM
I kind of agree with you riodog but at the same time the folks that are carrying are doing it for a reason greater than personal defense, they are trying to change a cultural reaction.

Vtec44
05-25-2009, 10:46 PM
the folks that are carrying are doing it for a reason greater than personal defense, they are trying to change a cultural reaction.

Although I don't open carry myself, but I fully support those that are doing it. It's not about personal defense and more about changing public opinion.

Liberty1
05-25-2009, 10:49 PM
2. Why don't you just wear a T-shirt that says "Quote Removed" if you need people to notice you?


I always find it interesting when fellow gun owners use the antis' phallic arguments. :p

You may otherwise have a decent argument which Gene has on occasion expressed a little more eloquently ;)

Turbinator
05-25-2009, 10:50 PM
This happened in Cupertino? Wow! I'm impressed it went off so smoothly. Thanks for alerting us to this successful outcome.

Turby

Riodog
05-25-2009, 11:39 PM
"You may otherwise have a decent argument which Gene has on occasion expressed a little more eloquently ".

This is true however I am severely lacking in tact and patience which is brought on by my having dealt with the less than desirable elements in society....the public at large. You must admit that my spelling is on par for some one "what got booted outta 2nd grade" for snachen a peak up the teachers dress.LOL
Rio :)

Gray Peterson
05-26-2009, 12:12 AM
Individual is lucky.

We are hearing of the presence of a Santa Clara Cty memo that says UOCer situations can be treated like "full felony stops" - meaning armed confrontation on the part of the deputy/ies.

Frankly if I were to remotely consider UOCing in SC County, I'd at least have a vest or trauma plate on.

Put in a PRA request and try to get that memo.

glockwise2000
05-26-2009, 12:21 AM
After having read these UOC posts for the past couple of years, I still don't see the point of "unloaded open carry" except to draw attention to yourself. It damn sure isn't for self defense so what's the point?


You could still use it as self defense.... throw the Unloaded Pistol/Revolver to your opponent. :rofl:

Gio
05-26-2009, 12:25 AM
You could still use it as self defense.... throw the Unloaded Pistol/Revolver to your opponent. :rofl:

Dang I can use my pre-ban 33 round mag as a weapon rather then busting a cap into any would be punks trying to mess with me. I call them my lead sticks :D

-Gio

DDT
05-26-2009, 12:26 AM
ess than desirable elements in society....the public at large.

This attitude may be the root of your issues.

IANAP

nicki
05-26-2009, 12:36 AM
If I was to UOC which I see only useful to make a political statement, I guess I would carry my pistol with the slide back and the magazine out.

This would mean a officer could see the gun is unloaded without me even touching it.

It also makes loading the gun with a charged magazine easier, but that is another story.

I guess if I was carrying a HK I could hit the mag release on my draw and the slide release as I inserted the magazine.

If this could be done quickly, like under 1 second, it may be a possible defense solution. Still, that half a second extra time to load your gun could cost you your life.

For defense purposes, I'd stick to LOC or LCC.

Nicki

E Pluribus Unum
05-26-2009, 1:44 AM
If I was to UOC which I see only useful to make a political statement, I guess I would carry my pistol with the slide back and the magazine out.

This would mean a officer could see the gun is unloaded without me even touching it.

It also makes loading the gun with a charged magazine easier, but that is another story.

I guess if I was carrying a HK I could hit the mag release on my draw and the slide release as I inserted the magazine.

If this could be done quickly, like under 1 second, it may be a possible defense solution. Still, that half a second extra time to load your gun could cost you your life.

For defense purposes, I'd stick to LOC or LCC.

Nicki

Even if it took 10 seconds to load your gun, it would still be a viable option for self defense.

Without a gun you are completely defenseless. An unloaded gun that can be quickly loaded is better than being completely unarmed.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 2:02 AM
After having read these UOC posts for the past couple of years, I still don't see the point of "unloaded open carry" except to draw attention to yourself. It damn sure isn't for self defense so what's the point?

2 suggestions.

1. Why don't you slap your mama for not giving you the attention you craved as a child?
2. Why don't you just wear a T-shirt that says "Quote Removed" if you need people to notice you?
As far as I'm concerned you're doing the same damage to our cause as the Black Panthers did by carrying in the capital way back when.
Rio

Correct me if I am wrong, but for some reason I have a vague recollection that you posted a similar response on another thread related to UOC...

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 2:05 AM
If I was to UOC which I see only useful to make a political statement, I guess I would carry my pistol with the slide back and the magazine out.

This would mean a officer could see the gun is unloaded without me even touching it.

It also makes loading the gun with a charged magazine easier, but that is another story.

I guess if I was carrying a HK I could hit the mag release on my draw and the slide release as I inserted the magazine.

If this could be done quickly, like under 1 second, it may be a possible defense solution. Still, that half a second extra time to load your gun could cost you your life.

For defense purposes, I'd stick to LOC or LCC.

Nicki

Both illegal without 12050 exemotions, which I am assuming you don't have, which means that you are grasping at lofty straws. In any case, you are still without a gun.

What is the first rule of a gunfight, again?

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 2:29 AM
Individual is lucky.

We are hearing of the presence of a Santa Clara Cty memo that says UOCer situations can be treated like "full felony stops" - meaning armed confrontation on the part of the deputy/ies.

Frankly if I were to remotely consider UOCing in SC County, I'd at least have a vest or trauma plate on.

I would like to see this memo -

E Pluribus Unum
05-26-2009, 3:15 AM
Both illegal without 12050 exemotions, which I am assuming you don't have, which means that you are grasping at lofty straws. In any case, you are still without a gun.

What is the first rule of a gunfight, again?

Please explain the violation of 12050:

12050. (a) (1) (A) The sheriff of a county, upon proof that the
person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists
for the issuance, and that the person applying satisfies any one of
the conditions specified in subparagraph (D) and has completed a
course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to
that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the
following formats:
(i) A license to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(ii) Where the population of the county is less than 200,000
persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a
license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person.


Do you mean 12031?

Soldier415
05-26-2009, 6:14 AM
I think this is the first time I have heard about a UOC stop going smoothly.

supersonic
05-26-2009, 6:26 AM
To the OP: don't sweat the negative posts. You did GOOD, man!!!!!!!! SCORE 1 for UOC in PRK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbs up::thumbsup:

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 8:49 AM
Please explain the violation of 12050:



Do you mean 12031?

That and 12031... or something.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 8:50 AM
What is the first rule of a gunfight, again?

Rule #1A) The best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one.

Rule #1B) Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Rule #1C) Don't bring and unloaded gun to a gunfight.

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 8:56 AM
Riodog,

I don't open carry, but I do think that there are advantages.

When the situation goes from green to orange, it's a damned sight faster to load your UOC firearm than it is to go home and unlock your safe.

Your beliefs would only be true if the UOC'er wasn't also carrying a loaded mag on the other hip.

Rule #1C) Don't bring and unloaded gun to a gunfight.

Untamed,

Better a weapon that takes a second or so to make ready, than no weapon at all.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 9:09 AM
Untamed,

better a gun that takes a second or two to load than no gun at all.

Although I do agree with that statement in theory, practically speaking I believe it is a myth. While you are drawing and loading your criminal opponent has already put 2 or 3 rounds in you. Or closed the distance of a few steps and stuck the knife in your chest.

As I have stated before, I can see UOC being used in defense of others were the UOCer is not the primary target, or active shooter type situations at a mall or something like that. But for immediate self defense....all I see is a dead / severly wounded UOCer and a criminal walking away with your gun.

If you go with the "You'll only be half as good in a gun fight as your best day on the range" notion, unless you've got some serious combat experience, I think most people are kidding themselves if they think, in the stress and adreniline rush of a life threatening encounter, they will be able to draw and load and get off threat stopping shots within a couple of seconds. If you look at those "21 feet" studies of the time is takes to draw a LOADED and openly holstered sidearm before the knife goes into your chest.....how must extra distance could a person cover in the extra 1 or 2 seconds that you're loading your gun?

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:29 AM
Please explain the violation of 12050:



Do you mean 12031?

Rule #1A) The best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one.

Rule #1B) Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Rule #1C) Don't bring and unloaded gun to a gunfight.

WRONG! The first rule of a gunfight is BRING A GUN! The loaded/unloaded condition that the gun is in is irrelevant, though having ammunition for the gun is necessary for proper functioning.

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 9:31 AM
Although I do agree with that statement in theory, practically speaking I believe it is a myth. While you are drawing and loading standing there completely helpless your criminal opponent has already put 2 or 3 rounds in you. Or closed the distance of a few steps and stuck the knife in your chest.

Corrected it to your version for you. Is this really any better than hoping you can get the magazine in in time?

I quite agree, much better not to have to load at all. But there are times perhaps that, if you are alert (as you should be), you might spot a potentially nasty situation before it gets too close. Suppose you are sitting in a retaurant and the B.G. comes in and starts shooting people. You can probably load without him noticing.

And there's always the theory that if they see your gun, they won't target you in the first place (they don't know if it is loaded or not).

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:36 AM
Although I do agree with that statement in theory, practically speaking I believe it is a myth. While you are drawing and loading your criminal opponent has already put 2 or 3 rounds in you. Or closed the distance of a few steps and stuck the knife in your chest.

As I have stated before, I can see UOC being used in defense of others were the UOCer is not the primary target, or active shooter type situations at a mall or something like that. But for immediate self defense....all I see is a dead / severly wounded UOCer and a criminal walking away with your gun.

If you go with the "You'll only be half as good in a gun fight as your best day on the range" notion, unless you've got some serious combat experience, I think most people are kidding themselves if they think, in the stress and adreniline rush of a life threatening encounter, they will be able to draw and load and get off threat stopping shots within a couple of seconds. If you look at those "21 feet" studies of the time is takes to draw a LOADED and openly holstered sidearm before the knife goes into your chest.....how must extra distance could a person cover in the extra 1 or 2 seconds that you're loading your gun?

Or, check this out... all the armchair tacticians bear with me here...

How about seeing open carry as a DETERRENT and if you do it correctly, most people will just readily assume that you are capable of defensive/retaliatory bodily harm and will simply leave you alone? That would nearly fulfill your 1A rule of gun fights, would it not, oh Untamed1972?

I have yet to see the the fruits of the anti-OC/UOC argument of the random whackass actively seeking out visibly armed civilians for mugging or other sundry purposes. If you can provide any solid proof for me then by all means, post it up. I love nothing more than tangible reality when what I see appears to be random hypotheses conjured up by an overactive imagination being thrown about as fact.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:37 AM
Corrected it to your version for you. Is this really any better than hoping you can get the magazine in in time?

I quite agree, much better not to have to load at all. But there are times perhaps that, if you are alert (as you should be), you might spot a potentially nasty situation before it gets too close. Suppose you are sitting in a retaurant and the B.G. comes in and starts shooting people. You can probably load without him noticing.

And there's always the theory that if they see your gun, they won't target you in the first place (they don't know if it is loaded or not).

It is much better to not have to load, but it is far better to have your tool with you than at home.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 9:39 AM
Corrected it to your version for you. Is this really any better than hoping you can get the magazine in in time?

I quite agree, much better not to have to load at all. But there are times perhaps that, if you are alert (as you should be), you might spot a potentially nasty situation before it gets too close. Suppose you are sitting in a retaurant and the B.G. comes in and starts shooting people. You can probably load without him noticing.

And there's always the theory that if they see your gun, they won't target you in the first place (they don't know if it is loaded or not).

As much as I hate repeating myself.....Go read my ENTIRE post above where I said: "As I have stated before, I can see UOC being used in defense of others were the UOCer is not the primary target, or active shooter type situations at a mall or something like that. But for immediate self defense....all I see is a dead / severly wounded UOCer and a criminal walking away with your gun."

I have never said UOC was COMPLETELY useless. Just that for the largest percentage of situations one might find themsleves in where the gun is needed for immediate self-defense it is likely to be of no value......things like getting held-up at the ATM or something like that.

Theseus
05-26-2009, 9:41 AM
Same boring argument, same worn out argument.

"You OC'ers are like a group of militant black men fighting to rid their community of LAPD tyrany."

"UOC'ers are dead UOC'ers if SHTF."

"You are going to hurt us all!"

Maybe I will be the first target. . . But maybe, just maybe it will help me save the life of a stranger, family member or myself. If there is just one chance to save just one life, don't we owe it to society to do it? Think of my children! Allow me to open carry so that I can keep my family safe.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 9:46 AM
If I was a criminal, I would actively and intentionally target UOCers as a source of new firearms. Knowing that its illegal to carry a loaded firearm, knowing there are folks who are using UOC as a form of civil disobedience and knowing that generally LEOs who are OCing usually have a badge sitting next to their firearm, Id say theres a 99.9% chance that I can take your unloaded firearm from you without any sort of resistance.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 9:50 AM
Or, check this out... all the armchair tacticians bear with me here...

How about seeing open carry as a DETERRENT and if you do it correctly, most people will just readily assume that you are capable of defensive/retaliatory bodily harm and will simply leave you alone? That would nearly fulfill your 1A rule of gun fights, would it not, oh Untamed1972?

I have yet to see the the fruits of the anti-OC/UOC argument of the random whackass actively seeking out visibly armed civilians for mugging or other sundry purposes. If you can provide any solid proof for me then by all means, post it up. I love nothing more than tangible reality when what I see appears to be random hypotheses conjured up by an overactive imagination being thrown about as fact.

I read that post about the OPEN CARRY ARGUEMENT. And I posted in that thread too. I stated that I think the writer made some very compelling arguments for the case of open carry. What I did post is the flaw in the logic of there not being any evidence to support "gun grabs" or "OCers being made targets". That flaw being because OC, even in states where it is legal is not commonly practiced, hence the opportunity for such incidents to occur is miniscual. The lack of evidence is directly related to the lack of opportunity. So I find the repeated use of the "there is no evidence to support that" argument to be rather moot. Until OC/UOC becomes far more common there is no way to know how it will play out.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:53 AM
If I was a criminal, I would actively and intentionally target UOCers as a source of new firearms. Knowing that its illegal to carry a loaded firearm, knowing there are folks who are using UOC as a form of civil disobedience and knowing that generally LEOs who are OCing usually have a badge sitting next to their firearm, Id say theres a 99.9% chance that I can take your unloaded firearm from you without any sort of resistance.

Criminals pick easy targets, not armed targets.

Even if the gun is unloaded there is no way to tell. Also, USUALLY doesn't account for off-duty personnel.

You know the law because you care. I highly doubt gang bangers really care about the law.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:56 AM
I read that post about the OPEN CARRY ARGUEMENT. And I posted in that thread too. I stated that I think the writer made some very compelling arguments for the case of open carry. What I did post is the flaw in the logic of there not being any evidence to support "gun grabs" or "OCers being made targets". That flaw being because OC, even in states where it is legal is not commonly practiced, hence the opportunity for such incidents to occur is miniscual. The lack of evidence is directly related to the lack of opportunity. So I find the repeated use of the "there is no evidence to support that" argument to be rather moot. Until OC/UOC becomes far more common there is no way to know how it will play out.

How common is common?

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 9:57 AM
If I was a criminal, I would actively and intentionally target UOCers as a source of new firearms. Knowing that its illegal to carry a loaded firearm, knowing there are folks who are using UOC as a form of civil disobedience and knowing that generally LEOs who are OCing usually have a badge sitting next to their firearm, Id say theres a 99.9% chance that I can take your unloaded firearm from you without any sort of resistance.

There's a survey taken amongst prison inmates (sorry I can't provide the source). Felons are in almost total agreement -- they stay away from people they think might be armed.

You might be the exception but, as you are not a criminal, who knows whether this is really how you would react? Also, how many felons understand the law well enough to know that you are more likely to be UOC than LOC?

In my view:

Upside of UOC.
1) You might save your own life or someone else's or prevent a crime.
Downside.
1) You might be dead. But, no more dead than if you weren't carrying in the first place.
2) (and this is why I don't do it) you might get hassled by the police.
3) It frightens the sheeple.

If you don't mind downside 2) and 3), then there's really no downside.

I have never said UOC was COMPLETELY useless. Just that for the largest percentage of situations one might find themsleves in where the gun is needed for immediate self-defense it is likely to be of no value......things like getting held-up at the ATM or something like that.

So, it is of no value. But neither does it make you any more dead. If you let them get the drop on you, it just doesn't matter. does it? Even concealed carry or LOC won't help you then.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 9:59 AM
Criminals pick easy targets, not armed targets.

An unloaded firearm does not make you armed.

Even if the gun is unloaded there is no way to tell. Also, USUALLY doesn't account for off-duty personnel.

Actually, you can tell because you know that LOC is illegal and that there is such thing as an UOC movement.

Off duty personell dont OC, they CC, thats part of the joy of being LE.

You know the law because you care. I highly doubt gang bangers really care about the law.

They care enough to know when the law provides them with opportunity. Not all criminals are untrained idiots, by assuming so youve already lost the fight.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 10:00 AM
How about seeing open carry as a DETERRENT and if you do it correctly, most people will just readily assume that you are capable of defensive/retaliatory bodily harm and will simply leave you alone? That would nearly fulfill your 1A rule of gun fights, would it not, oh Untamed1972?


I would rather not base the "tactics" of my self-defense on HOPING that people will ASSUME that I am "capable of defensive/retaliatory bodily harm". Tactically speaking, if I am going to present the image that I am "capable of defensive/retaliatory bodily harm" I damn well better be able to do it.

Sometimes UOC to me seems like the guy who assumes a fighting stance and says he knows karate....and the HOPES he says it convincingly enough that his opponent will believe him and back off.

Look....I do believe that in SOME situations OC can have deterrent value. But I can also see some situations where it would have the opposite effect.

nukechaser
05-26-2009, 10:05 AM
So you keep an empty mag in the well when carrying?

Yes, for two reasons:

1. Keeps debris out of the magazine well, which makes the drop-the-empty-insert-the-full-cycle-the-slide-to-place-a-round-into-battery evolution faster and without the worry of something being lodged in the magazine well when you need it to be empty.

2. Makes potential ne'er-do-wells think twice because they do not know if it is loaded or not.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 10:05 AM
There's a survey taken amongst prison inmates (sorry I can't provide the source). Felons are in almost total agreement -- they stay away from people they think might be armed.

You might be the exception but, as you are not a criminal, who knows whether this is really how you would react? Also, how many felons understand the law well enough to know that you are more likely to be UOC than LOC?

Did that stop that felon in Oakland from dropping to openly armed LEOs on the street during a traffic stop? Now granted you could argue that the felon did not seek the LEOs out. But when faced with them the fact that they were armed didn't deter him one bit.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:05 AM
There's a survey taken amongst prison inmates (sorry I can't provide the source). Felons are in almost total agreement -- they stay away from people they think might be armed.

You might be the exception but, as you are not a criminal, who knows whether this is really how you would react? Also, how many felons understand the law well enough to know that you are more likely to be UOC than LOC?.

They dont need to "understand" the law, they just need to know that

"hey, theres a bunch of idiots walking around with unloaded guns! If you see a guy with a gun on his hip and no badge, its unloaded, take it!"

In my view:

Upside of UOC.
1) You might save your own life or someone else's or prevent a crime.
Downside.
1) You might be dead. But, no more dead than if you weren't carrying in the first place.
2) (and this is why I don't do it) you might get hassled by the police.
3) It frightens the sheeple.

If you don't mind downside 2) and 3), then there's really no downside.

Downside- You will be actively targeted as an easy source of a new firearm.

I always thought the #1 rule of self defense was to NOT make yourself a target.

scobun
05-26-2009, 10:06 AM
No matter how you feel, it seems quite sad that so many gun owners are discouraging the freedom of others. If someone wants to engage in a legal activity, then we should let them do so by all means...at least that is how it used to work in America.

Back to the original point, I hope that the deputy's name and badge number were passed on with a letter of appreciation to the SD for a job well done. We need more LEOs like him on the job.

MudCamper
05-26-2009, 10:08 AM
1. Why don't you slap your mama for not giving you the attention you craved as a child?
2. Why don't you just wear a T-shirt that says "Quote Removed" if you need people to notice you?
As far as I'm concerned you're doing the same damage to our cause as the Black Panthers did by carrying in the capital way back when.
Rio

Wow. That is the most trollish post I've seen here in a long time. Thanks for revealing your true character, Rio. I will refrain from replying with the quip that comes to mind, as I'd probably get banned for it.

If I was a criminal, I would actively and intentionally target UOCers as a source of new firearms. Knowing that its illegal to carry a loaded firearm, knowing there are folks who are using UOC as a form of civil disobedience and knowing that generally LEOs who are OCing usually have a badge sitting next to their firearm, Id say theres a 99.9% chance that I can take your unloaded firearm from you without any sort of resistance.

If you were a criminal, you likely wouldn't be using much logic like you are now. You also likely wouldn't know much about the actions or behaviors of the fringe pro-gun movement. You'd see a gun and go find another target.

Look....I do believe that in SOME situations OC can have deterrent value. But I can also see some situations where it would have the opposite effect.

True. Do what you are comfortable with, and let others do what they are comfortable with.

Old Timer
05-26-2009, 10:09 AM
Rule #1A) The best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one.Yep, but how are you going to convince the other guy of that when he is coming at you with the intent to put you in an early grave?Rule #1B) Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.Yep. Sean had it right.Rule #1C) Don't bring and unloaded gun to a gunfight.Well, anyone who has ever actually carried unloaded knows that the magazine is loaded on the opposite hip. It takes me about 1 second to insert the magazine and chamber a round thus making my gun fully loaded and fully functional for self-defense purposes. I would rather have a 1 second delay in the ability to defend myself than a 2 hour delay. "Uh, wait a minute! Time out! Stay right here and I will run home and get my gun!" That will have about the same affect as saying, "You better stop that or I will call the cops." We are all familiar with the old saying, "When seconds count the police are only minutes away."

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 10:11 AM
Downside- You will be actively targeted as an easy source of a new firearm.

We know that a growing number of Californians are UOC'ing these days. We hear stories every week of encounters with LEO's. I have yet to hear of a UOC encounter with a gun-grabbing gang banger.

I also accept the possibility that a criminal might be intelligent enough to research the law, lurk on these pages or whatever and work out a strategy to determine who might be carrying unloaded. However, I doubt that that's your average gangbanger and, as I say, I haven't yet heard of that happening.

Maybe we should defer FUD about gun grabbing until it starts to happen?

If I wanted to score a bunch of firearms and ammo, I'd ambush one of the cars going up the deserted three mile dirt road to my local shooting range.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:11 AM
No matter how you feel, it seems quite sad that so many gun owners are discouraging the freedom of others. If someone wants to engage in a legal activity, then we should let them do so by all means...at least that is how it used to work in America.

Back to the original point, I hope that the deputy's name and badge number were passed on with a letter of appreciation to the SD for a job well done. We need more LEOs like him on the job.

Whats sad is that gun owners have deemed this situation acceptable and submit to it in the first place. To celebrate being stopped for a "check" because it didnt result in harrasment is disgusting and a prime example of how Californians lead the way in erosion of the rights and freedoms that were the foundation of our Country.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-26-2009, 10:11 AM
If I was a criminal, I would actively and intentionally target UOCers as a source of new firearms. Knowing that its illegal to carry a loaded firearm, knowing there are folks who are using UOC as a form of civil disobedience and knowing that generally LEOs who are OCing usually have a badge sitting next to their firearm, Id say theres a 99.9% chance that I can take your unloaded firearm from you without any sort of resistance.


All of this presumes that the guy UOC'ing is incapable of offering resistance to a physical attack. That those who UOC will just cheerfully roll over when you come walking up with a menacing mien or whatever.

That's not the case with me. I am fully capable of flattening the average attacker. From what I saw at the PB UOC event, so are most of those who UOC.

What UOC gives me then is another way of saving my life & the lives of others. Is it perfect? Not by a damn sight. But, its better than what we'd have otherwise & will have to do until the 2A is finally restored. IE, until LOC is once again the minimum Constitutional Standard.

The Raisuli

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:14 AM
If you were a criminal, you likely wouldn't be using much logic like you are now. You also likely wouldn't know much about the actions or behaviors of the fringe pro-gun movement. You'd see a gun and go find another target.


Again, assuming that all criminals are untrained idiots, you have already lost.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 10:16 AM
How common is common?

I have yet to see one person in my highly populated SoCal urban community OCing, and I also travel extensively all over SoCal and haven't seen one person yet. To me I would consider something like OC to become common if it were something I saw at least once everyday, or several times a week at least.

When it is something that a handful of people out of several million do occasionally.....that's just not common enough to use the claim that the evidence doesn't support it.

And if you are OCing while walkiing your dog and your decent, low-crime suburban neighborhood then your risk is reduced by your environment. Start OCing while walking your dog in the bad neighborhood the COPs don't even like going to into.

I think even in places where is it legal, most people who OC on a regualr basis stay out of bad places as much as possible. So the incidents of "gun grabs" is also likely reduced by good "tactics". So I just don't think one should just blindly say that because there is no evidence to support such things then you shouldn't worry about it.

So an extention of my 1A rule would be you avoid the gunfight in the first place by staying out of places where it is more likely you would end up in one.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:18 AM
. I would rather have a 1 second delay in the ability to defend myself ...

You do not have the 1 second to defend yourself, ever.

By the time you realize there is a threat, its already too late.

Im not sure where you folks learned about self defense, but Id go get a refund.

MudCamper
05-26-2009, 10:19 AM
Again, assuming that all criminals are untrained idiots, you have already lost.

I'm not. But this is a game of probabilities. Your scenario is a very remote probability. Is it possible? Yes. I give you that. But it is very unlikely.


You do not have the 1 second to defend yourself, ever.

By the time you realize there is a threat, its already too late.

Im not sure where you folks learned about self defense, but Id go get a refund.

Again, while sometimes what you say is true, it is not always true. What you are saying here is, since you cannot defend yourself from some attacks, you may as well give up and not try and defend yourself from any attack.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:20 AM
We know that a growing number of Californians are UOC'ing these days. We hear stories every week of encounters with LEO's. I have yet to hear of a UOC encounter with a gun-grabbing gang banger.

I also accept the possibility that a criminal might be intelligent enough to research the law, lurk on these pages or whatever and work out a strategy to determine who might be carrying unloaded. However, I doubt that that's your average gangbanger and, as I say, I haven't yet heard of that happening.

Maybe we should defer FUD about gun grabbing until it starts to happen?

If I wanted to score a bunch of firearms and ammo, I'd ambush one of the cars going up the deserted three mile dirt road to my local shooting range.

Okey dokey, Lets wait until it happens to consider it a threat. Good planning.

and the targeting people going to and from shooting ranges... it happens.

Untamed1972
05-26-2009, 10:26 AM
No matter how you feel, it seems quite sad that so many gun owners are discouraging the freedom of others. If someone wants to engage in a legal activity, then we should let them do so by all means...at least that is how it used to work in America.


I'm not discouraging anyone from doing it if they want to. I'm just trying to put out some points for pondering. And I am always open to input myself. Like I said....I read that OPEN CARRY ARGUMENT posting and admit the writer made some compelling arguements and made some points I hadn't thought of. But to try and compare UOC to LOC for me is still a bit of a stretch. That is just my personal feeling right now.

And I like some of the other posters do not like to underestimate the criminal element. I would rather overestimate on that issue, because to underestimate might get me killed.

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 10:28 AM
I have yet to see the the fruits of the anti-OC/UOC argument of the random whackass actively seeking out visibly armed civilians for mugging or other sundry purposes. If you can provide any solid proof for me then by all means, post it up. I love nothing more than tangible reality when what I see appears to be random hypotheses conjured up by an overactive imagination being thrown about as fact.

It's a circular self-negating argument. Claim that if people UOC they will be targeted, so less people UOC, so there is NO PROOF of the claim to be found, and it can still be perpetuated with no evidence whatsoever.

Might as well boil down the argument: the worst possible thing will probably happen to you, so just GIVE UP and die!

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:33 AM
All of this presumes that the guy UOC'ing is incapable of offering resistance to a physical attack. That those who UOC will just cheerfully roll over when you come walking up with a menacing mien or whatever.

That's not the case with me. I am fully capable of flattening the average attacker. From what I saw at the PB UOC event, so are most of those who UOC.

What UOC gives me then is another way of saving my life & the lives of others. Is it perfect? Not by a damn sight. But, its better than what we'd have otherwise & will have to do until the 2A is finally restored. IE, until LOC is once again the minimum Constitutional Standard.

The Raisuli

You belive you have the physical prowess to defend yourself against an armed attacker bare handed? You belive that a threat will present itself early enough that you will have sufficient time to react? I will conceded that you may be able to defend against an indirect threat, which is not actually self defense but injecting yourself into a threat situation but as for defending yourself, I highly doubt its gonna happen.

Kestryll
05-26-2009, 10:34 AM
This is true however I am severely lacking in tact and patience

Here's a tip, LEARN tact and civility or stop posting here.

No third option.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:38 AM
I'm not. But this is a game of probabilities. Your scenario is a very remote probability. Is it possible? Yes. I give you that. But it is very unlikely.




Again, while sometimes what you say is true, it is not always true. What you are saying here is, since you cannot defend yourself from some attacks, you may as well give up and not try and defend yourself from any attack.

No, Im not saying DONT attempt to defend yourself, what Im saying is give yourself a realistic opportunity to defend yourself. To consider UOC anything other than a political statement is disingenuous and potentially dangerous to the person engaging in this activity.

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 10:45 AM
and the targeting people going to and from shooting ranges... it happens.

You make my point for me.

And your approach is to throw the baby away because, although it has never happened, someone might have put sarin in the bathwater.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:49 AM
You make my point for me.

And your approach is to throw the baby away because, although it has never happened, someone might have put sarin in the bathwater.

Nope, my approach is:

Dont claim that UOC is anything other than a political statement.

ETA** and fight for SHALL ISSUE CCW across the board.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-26-2009, 11:01 AM
You belive you have the physical prowess to defend yourself against an armed attacker bare handed? You belive that a threat will present itself early enough that you will have sufficient time to react? I will conceded that you may be able to defend against an indirect threat, which is not actually self defense but injecting yourself into a threat situation but as for defending yourself, I highly doubt its gonna happen.


That would be the difference between theory & practice. For such has happened & yet, I'm still here.

So, while your theory sounds good (to you anyway), I won't be putting any stock in it.

The Raisuli

Glock22Fan
05-26-2009, 11:01 AM
and fight for SHALL ISSUE CCW across the board.

10:4 to that.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 11:04 AM
10:4 to that.


:rolleyes:

West coast
05-26-2009, 11:07 AM
Nice.......

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 11:09 AM
fight for SHALL ISSUE CCW across the board.

+ 1,000,000

Theseus
05-26-2009, 11:30 AM
And CavTrooper, what of those of us who don't want CC? Like me. Unless I can do so without a license or permission I will continue to OC and even then would probably do it anyway!

And every time I oc I will wear this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24152&stc=1&d=1243362549

And I will wear it proudly. Maybe they will kill me and take my gun, but at least I stood for something and didn't cower away for fear that it might happen.

Liberty1
05-26-2009, 12:06 PM
UOC is not the "cats meow". And I don't believe any UOCers see it that way or have an attachment to it as UOC is not the "Right". Most likely in my estimation unregulated LOC is the yet to be realized Federal "Right" (wish CCW was too).

For those who do UOC I'd say they've evaluated the risks (slight chance of injury - greater chance of LEO contact) , balanced that against the benefits (real visual deterrence - and the ability to load where time and circumstances permit - keep the running shoes on:p) and combined with an expression of their political beliefs, find it in the least that they can do to exercise and demonstrate their CA neutered 2nd A. Rights to self defense tools.

But yes, UOC (or for that matter "Poor Man's CCW") is the very poor stepchild to LOC or CCW, the latter are what we all are fighting for.

And then the discussions of LOC or CCW should be relegated to the mere questions of where am I going today, what am I wearing, what is the temperature, and what am I comfortable with.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 12:25 PM
And CavTrooper, what of those of us who don't want CC? Like me.

My answer would depend on your reasons for not wanting to CC.

DDT
05-26-2009, 12:43 PM
My answer would depend on your reasons for not wanting to CC.

I had no idea you had been anointed arbiter of all things right and wrong.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 1:08 PM
And CavTrooper, what of those of us who don't want CC? Like me.

My answer would depend on your reasons for not wanting to CC.

I had no idea you had been anointed arbiter of all things right and wrong.

Seems that he was asking for my opinion.

nukechaser
05-26-2009, 1:22 PM
I believe this all boils down into two main points:

There are those who feel UOC is a bright idea and there are those who disagree.

At the risk of over-generalizing (uh, oh, now I've done it) the two camps are at odds as to which is the better fight. To get "shall issue" to pass, or to use UOC to try to overcome the bias against guns in public.

Of course each side has its merits.

On the LCC/LOC/CCW side, folks want the status quo to change, so that one need not be the movie star, brother-in-law of the sheriff, or other polically connected person in order to be able to show "good cause" for carrying and thereby exercising a fundamental right of self protection.

On the UOC side, folks use "civil obedience" and work within the law to show several things:
1. unless one is part of the exclusive CCW club, UOC is the only way to legally carry a sidearm, and even then one must be careful of 626.9 and other "sensitive areas".
2. by carrying in public, and being an upstanding member of the community, it shows that guns aren't evil and can be allowed out of the gun safe.
3. by demonstrating that firearms can be part of everyday life, they lose more and more of their "evilness" or novelty.

Remember when only rich folks had cellphones when they first came out? Everyone would stop and stare and wish that someday, they, too, could have the luxury of a cellular phone. Nowadays, if you don't have a cellphone you're seen as an oddity. UOC is a way of attempting to turn around a train of thought that guns seen in public, carried by everyday folks, is somehow bad.

The greater the amount of good exposure, the better it is for all who want to advance the pro-2nd amendment agenda.

As for me, I'd love to have the choice of LOC or CCW without government intrusion or limitations. I think it would be great to have to decide, "Hmm, night out for dinner... I think I'll wear the coat and tie with the shoulder holster rig and tomorrow, when we head up hte hill for camping, while setting up the camp site, it will be the belt holster, exposed". But until I have that choice, UOC is the only way I can legally carry a sidearm.

We're all ambassadors of our fight for 2nd-amendment rights, and bickering amongst ourselves does not put our best foot forward. We should always remember that our opponents read our words too. Lively debate is healthy, anything less than being gentlemanly does not further our collective cause.

Theseus
05-26-2009, 1:26 PM
Why should I CC? I am not a criminal with ill intent. I think similar along the lines that made concealment a crime. Gentlemen wear openly, criminals wear concealed.

To make clear, I am not fond of CC myself, but I will still fight to get you shall issue CC even if I have my LOC. I believe one should choose, but my goal is not shall-issue CCW as much it is LOC.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 1:48 PM
Why should I CC? I am not a criminal with ill intent. I think similar along the lines that made concealment a crime. Gentlemen wear openly, criminals wear concealed.

You are relating CC with criminal activity and OC with being a gentleman?

What were the lines of thinking that made concelment a crime, and why is *CC now the standard and socially accepted form of carry (*void in California). What is it about this societal change that you disagree with to the point of refusing to evolve with the rest of the country?

IMO, most folks choose not display their arms as a "fashion accessory" or a political statement. Some follow the "walk softly and carry a 1911" line of thinking when it comes to self defense. Of course, having the option to OC or CC is the best choice IMO, but I will take CC over OC every time.

I think most folk realize that UOC is simply political action and has nothing to do with self defense. People concered with their personal saftey go to great lengths to ensure it even to the point of disregarding laws that impead their own defense.

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 2:41 PM
I just off the phone with the Sgt in chg of public affairs at Santa Clara Sheriff's Office - he says:

1) there is no memo encouraging deputies to use 'felony stops' on UOCers
2) there is no policy to that effect according to his discussion today with the Under Sheriff in charge of this issue
3) he was pleased to hear of the positive interactions recently -
4) he says that they may ask for the ID in order to confirm that the weapon was not stolen -

NO FUD :rockon:

bwiese
05-26-2009, 2:46 PM
I just off the phone with the Sgt in chg of public affairs at Santa Clara Sheriff's Office - he says:

1) there is no memo encouraging deputies to use 'felony stops' on UOCers
2) there is no policy to that effect according to his discussion today with the Under Sheriff in charge of this issue
3) he was pleased to hear of the positive interactions recently -
4) he says that they may ask for the ID in order to confirm that the weapon was not stolen -


We believe otherwise. Our source has good credibility.

He may not know (hey, he's a PAO dealing with the latest "community policing" concerns) or he may be lying. Only a PRAR might reveal - many police agencies lie like hell in situations like this and many such internal memos never see light of day unless subpoenaed or found thru deposition.

Or, it might not be Santa Clara County and instead a PD/agency within.

Or, it might be a subsection of a patrol memo that was dealing primarily with another subject.

Or, it may not even be a memo but "discussed internal policy".

We know there's some smoke here in Santa Clara County regarding UOC.

Theseus
05-26-2009, 2:52 PM
What is it about this societal change that you disagree with to the point of refusing to evolve with the rest of the country?
Well, first I was taught to be a free individual thinker. It matters not where the populous goes, I thinks for myself and can make my own determinations. I don't change just because people think I should. If I did I would still think gay marriage was bad.

IMO, most folks choose not display their arms as a "fashion accessory" or a political statement. Some follow the "walk softly and carry a 1911" line of thinking when it comes to self defense. Of course, having the option to OC or CC is the best choice IMO, but I will take CC over OC every time.

Surely my weapon is not a fashion accessory or a political statement, at least not in the manner or reason that I began carrying. When I purchased my weapon I did so because it was accurate, dependable, and for a fair price that I could afford. I began carrying because openly is the only manner I am likely to be able to do legally. Since under most circumstances I like to follow and obey the law and I still feel very firmly in my right and need to protect and defend my family I chose that UOC was worth the potential risks.

Further, a fashion accessory to me kind of implies that the only purpose is for looks and serves no real purpose where as my pistol has a purpose.

I think most folk realize that UOC is simply political action and has nothing to do with self defense. People concered with their personal saftey go to great lengths to ensure it even to the point of disregarding laws that impead their own defense.

I think you still are under the false assumption that UOC is SIMPLY a political action. Originally I was not carrying for any political gain. Now that I have been charged for what I believe to be political reasons now ONE of my reasons is the political activism.

nukechaser
05-26-2009, 3:03 PM
I think most folk realize that UOC is simply political action and has nothing to do with self defense. People concered with their personal saftey go to great lengths to ensure it even to the point of disregarding laws that impead their own defense.

I beg to half-differ... (if there is such a thing a differing on half of someone's opinion)

UOC is a political action that has EVERYTHING to do with self defense. It is the only way that we can legally carry a sidearm for self defense outside of the walls of our home.(except, of course, the very small minority who get CCW)

The other half with which I beg to differ is "disregarding laws that impede their own defense". I am concerned with my personal safety, and I go to great lengths to ensure it, even to the point of using the laws on the books to further my own defense.

By "disregarding laws that impede their own defense", I presume you're inferring that people carry concealed, regardless of whether permitted or not. Not you, of course, but others who would break the law. :) Yes, I am sure there are many who CCW without a permit. Some of them can be found in places like Corcoran, Pelican Bay or Folsom.

Each person has to decide if that risk outweighs the benefits. It is a very personal decision, just as UOC has a large potential to place one's finances and liberties at risk. I am one of those who feel strongly enough about it to put my money where my heart is and I UOC. I strive to be the well-spoken, calm ambassador for my/our cause.

Yes, it is a politcal statement... and it has everything to do with self defense and personal liberty.

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 3:24 PM
We believe otherwise. Our source has good credibility.

He may not know (hey, he's a PAO dealing with the latest "community policing" concerns) or he may be lying. Only a PRAR might reveal - many police agencies lie like hell in situations like this and many such internal memos never see light of day unless subpoenaed or found thru deposition.

Or, it might not be Santa Clara County and instead a PD/agency within.

Or, it might be a subsection of a patrol memo that was dealing primarily with another subject.

Or, it may not even be a memo but "discussed internal policy".

We know there's some smoke here in Santa Clara County regarding UOC.

PM'd you - it'd be great if we talked - thx

grammaton76
05-26-2009, 3:42 PM
It is the only way that we can legally carry a sidearm for self defense outside of the walls of our home.(except, of course, the very small minority who get CCW)

Don't forget LUCC.

Yes, for two reasons:

1. Keeps debris out of the magazine well, which makes the drop-the-empty-insert-the-full-cycle-the-slide-to-place-a-round-into-battery evolution faster and without the worry of something being lodged in the magazine well when you need it to be empty.

2. Makes potential ne'er-do-wells think twice because they do not know if it is loaded or not.

You forgot one. Remember the Oceanside Marine on the 4th of July? The cops insisted that his loaded magazine on one hip and empty magwell on his 1911 consituted a loaded weapon. I find it safest, on the occasions where I open carry, to keep an empty mag in the magwell unless the rules of the event state otherwise. There is NO way they can claim you have a "loaded but incomplete" weapon if there's an empty mag in the weapon... the loaded mag is just a spare part at that point. :)

You belive you have the physical prowess to defend yourself against an armed attacker bare handed? You belive that a threat will present itself early enough that you will have sufficient time to react? I will conceded that you may be able to defend against an indirect threat, which is not actually self defense but injecting yourself into a threat situation but as for defending yourself, I highly doubt its gonna happen.

I know that I can draw and load my weapon while running. Furthermore, I believe that the point where I stop running and turn around, is the point where anyone still there should commence to void their bowels.

swhatb
05-26-2009, 3:54 PM
Bill - Can you get a copy of that memo and post?

Individual is lucky.

We are hearing of the presence of a Santa Clara Cty memo that says UOCer situations can be treated like "full felony stops" - meaning armed confrontation on the part of the deputy/ies.

Frankly if I were to remotely consider UOCing in SC County, I'd at least have a vest or trauma plate on.

swhatb
05-26-2009, 4:03 PM
is there a map to tell exactly where the 1,000 feet is on the school boundary line...

and

does a church that has sunday school count as being a school?

DDT
05-26-2009, 4:13 PM
I think most folk realize that UOC is simply political action and has nothing to do with self defense. People concered with their personal saftey go to great lengths to ensure it even to the point of disregarding laws that impead their own defense.

So first you ask why he would be so willing to violate unwritten social norms as if that is somehow a bad thing and then you openly advocate violating codified social norms by way of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.

well played sir.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 4:17 PM
So first you ask why he would be so willing to violate unwritten social norms as if that is somehow a bad thing and then you openly advocate violating codified social norms by way of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.

well played sir.

Whos advocating anything? I made a statement of fact.

DDT
05-26-2009, 4:22 PM
Whos advocating anything? I made a statement of fact.

You belittle his desire to open carry but then mention that people really worried about the protection of their family just break the law.

It is passive advocacy. You can lay claim to whatever you want, people reading the thread will come away with the true context of your statements.

You are simply against OC of any sort and have no problem with illegally CCing.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 4:25 PM
Of course, having the option to OC or CC is the best choice IMO, but I will take CC over OC every time.

You belittle his desire to open carry but then mention that people really worried about the protection of their family just break the law.

It is passive advocacy. You can lay claim to whatever you want, people reading the thread will come away with the true context of your statements.

You are simply against OC of any sort and have no problem with illegally CCing.

Thank you, try again. :thumbsup:

bohoki
05-26-2009, 4:31 PM
is an UOC is kind of an attractive nuisance to an armed criminal?

maybe

the law is written it must be followed even if it is as logical as requiring you inflateable life vest uninflated and you are only allowed to inflate it after you fall in the water

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 4:33 PM
It's an easy argument to make if you are on your own island. If you were to leave that island, would you rather OC, exposing yourself to false arrest even when LOC is legalized 100% nationwide? Or would you CC, legal or not, because it is far less likely you will be contacted, let alone get arrested for 2A exercise?

I'm pessimistic that false arrest of open carriers will EVER end, even after 100% legalization and billions of dollars in lawsuits attempting to stop false arrests (funded by ever-increasing taxes), but that's not to say they should stop doing it, and CC instead.

even if it is as logical as requiring you inflateable life vest uninflated and you are only allowed to inflate it after you fall in the water

I'm not sure if the analogy holds. I've seen some really nice vests that look almost like tac vests uninflated; you wouldn't want to have them cumbersomely inflated on deck, but if you have enough presence of mind to pull the cord as you're in mid-fall, yeah...

MrClamperSir
05-26-2009, 5:07 PM
That was awesome to listen to. Great job.

vrand
05-26-2009, 5:30 PM
Some are and some won't listen. Still a very civil exchange considering the unconstitutionality of PC 12031.

yup

vrand
05-26-2009, 5:34 PM
Even if it took 10 seconds to load your gun, it would still be a viable option for self defense.

Without a gun you are completely defenseless. An unloaded gun that can be quickly loaded is better than being completely unarmed.

:thumbsup:

grammaton76
05-26-2009, 5:42 PM
I'm not sure if the analogy holds. I've seen some really nice vests that look almost like tac vests uninflated; you wouldn't want to have them cumbersomely inflated on deck, but if you have enough presence of mind to pull the cord as you're in mid-fall, yeah...

Saw an episode of King of Queens a while back, where a guy passes an uninflated life raft through the money slot of a subway token seller's booth... then yanks the cord when inside. For some reason, the life vest reminded me of this.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:15 PM
is there a map to tell exactly where the 1,000 feet is on the school boundary line...

and

does a church that has sunday school count as being a school?

Not unless you get a hold of child molester maps.

Sunday school, preschools and colleges do not have a 1000' boundary, only K-12.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:17 PM
You are relating CC with criminal activity and OC with being a gentleman?

What were the lines of thinking that made concelment a crime, and why is *CC now the standard and socially accepted form of carry (*void in California). What is it about this societal change that you disagree with to the point of refusing to evolve with the rest of the country?

IMO, most folks choose not display their arms as a "fashion accessory" or a political statement. Some follow the "walk softly and carry a 1911" line of thinking when it comes to self defense. Of course, having the option to OC or CC is the best choice IMO, but I will take CC over OC every time.

I think most folk realize that UOC is simply political action and has nothing to do with self defense. People concered with their personal saftey go to great lengths to ensure it even to the point of disregarding laws that impead their own defense.

Founding Fathers said criminals conceal.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:26 PM
An unloaded firearm does not make you armed.



Actually, you can tell because you know that LOC is illegal and that there is such thing as an UOC movement.

Off duty personell dont OC, they CC, thats part of the joy of being LE.



They care enough to know when the law provides them with opportunity. Not all criminals are untrained idiots, by assuming so youve already lost the fight.

You know, I had the same discussion with KPBS and they had the audacity to sneer at me and say that my efforts were futile because in the end I was unarmed. I responded with that I am not unarmed, I am unfortunately UNLOADED and that there is a very distinct difference. Please do not tread on the efforts that I and others have made, as it looks really bad when you begin to sound like some bleeding heart, spoon-fed government lackey.

I personally know know at least two LEO personnel that OC regularly while off-duty and I have seen one in another location (before I knew LOC was legal for LEO off-duty). Unless the ones that DO are part of the ones that DONT, then I see an inherent flaw in your logic. Perhaps it is better to say that MOST don't OC. Then again, that would defeat your elitist point of view.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:34 PM
They dont need to "understand" the law, they just need to know that

"hey, theres a bunch of idiots walking around with unloaded guns! If you see a guy with a gun on his hip and no badge, its unloaded, take it!"




Downside- You will be actively targeted as an easy source of a new firearm.

I always thought the #1 rule of self defense was to NOT make yourself a target.

HEY Cavtrooper, how do you know my revolver is unloaded? Do you really want to stake your life on the fact that my gun might be unloaded? How about if I might be with a friend packing a concealed firearm? Come on now, any takers?

If criminals REALLY wanted to get people's firearms, all they have to do is wait outside of gun shops and tag people's cars with GPS units and track them back to their houses. OR, even better, they can just PRAR CCW applications then POUNCE CCW permit holders for THEIR weapons, as we all know criminals LOVE targeting people that CARRY guns! If you think about it, with all the guns sold in the last 5 months you would think gun robberies would have just SKYROCKETED!

YAY FOR THINKING LIKE CRIMINALS! WOO HOO!

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:46 PM
And someone respond to this thread already, I have been geared into combat mode!

grammaton76
05-26-2009, 6:48 PM
And someone respond to this thread already, I have been geared into combat mode!

Sure.

Suggestion: Write a wiki page with all the standard "UOC is useless because..." arguments and all the standard "it's not useless because..." arguments.

Then whenever crap such as what you've been battling this time around gets trotted out, you can just go "*yawn* We addressed this ages ago, here's the link..." :)

DDT
05-26-2009, 7:12 PM
And someone respond to this thread already, I have been geared into combat mode!

I'm pretty sure you're safe to stop responding to him. Everyone else has stopped listening to him.

jafount
05-26-2009, 7:16 PM
whats the point of open carry of an unloaded firearm?

ke6guj
05-26-2009, 7:24 PM
whats the point of open carry of an unloaded firearm?because open carry of a loaded handgun is restricted, and concealed carry as well.

Just becase the handgun is currently unloaded does not prohibit it from being loaded in an emergency. Yes, it may take a couple seconds to make ready, but if you can survive that long, you now have a loaded handgun to defend yourself. A delayed defense is better than no defense at all, unless you are targetted specifically due to UOC.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 7:32 PM
I need to make a sticky for the "what is the point?" questions, as I think I might have just thrown a clot... or something.

phamkl
05-26-2009, 8:51 PM
Open carry a sheathed 13" kukri in addition to your other piece. You don't gotta cock that one and you can liberate any hand that tries to grab your political statement.

I don't think anyone would ever question whether the blade is loaded.

HondaMasterTech
05-26-2009, 9:05 PM
Whats the point of an empty gun?

HondaMasterTech
05-26-2009, 9:07 PM
That was a rhetorical question, btw.

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 9:11 PM
I need to make a sticky for the "what is the point?" questions, as I think I might have just thrown a clot... or something.

Silly rabbit, nobody reads stickies. If I ran a forum (... again), I would have a multiple choice test as part of the reg process. If you pass 100%, gaining admittance, then deviate from the answers in your posts, BAN.

I don't suffer fools gladly.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 9:24 PM
Founding Fathers said criminals conceal.

Founding fathers also said women cant vote and black folk arent really people.

You know, I had the same discussion with KPBS and they had the audacity to sneer at me and say that my efforts were futile because in the end I was unarmed. I responded with that I am not unarmed, I am unfortunately UNLOADED and that there is a very distinct difference. Please do not tread on the efforts that I and others have made, as it looks really bad when you begin to sound like some bleeding heart, spoon-fed government lackey.

I personally know know at least two LEO personnel that OC regularly while off-duty and I have seen one in another location (before I knew LOC was legal for LEO off-duty). Unless the ones that DO are part of the ones that DONT, then I see an inherent flaw in your logic. Perhaps it is better to say that MOST don't OC. Then again, that would defeat your elitist point of view.

Ive never personally seen a LEO open carry without a badge next to the gun. You may have, but I highly doubt its common practice.

Now, how am I an elitist? I dont have a CA CCW, Im not against open carry, Im merely bringing the fact that an unloaded pistol on your hip WILL NOT help you in a self defense situation, either as a deterrent or a defensive weapon. I hope you never have to learn that harsh lesson for yourself.

HEY Cavtrooper, how do you know my revolver is unloaded? Do you really want to stake your life on the fact that my gun might be unloaded? How about if I might be with a friend packing a concealed firearm? Come on now, any takers?

If criminals REALLY wanted to get people's firearms, all they have to do is wait outside of gun shops and tag people's cars with GPS units and track them back to their houses. OR, even better, they can just PRAR CCW applications then POUNCE CCW permit holders for THEIR weapons, as we all know criminals LOVE targeting people that CARRY guns! If you think about it, with all the guns sold in the last 5 months you would think gun robberies would have just SKYROCKETED!

YAY FOR THINKING LIKE CRIMINALS! WOO HOO!

I know your revolver is unloaded because openly carrying loaded is against the law and you would have to be a complete and total idiot or a dedicated activist to openly break the law that way.

I wont stake my life on an unloaded firearm, yours or mine.

Criminals are already following people home from gun shops and firing ranges to steal their firearms, and its happening in states that freely issue CCW permits! To think the unloaded revolver on your hip is any kind of deterrent to a criminal is flawed logic and needs to be reconsidered.

I'm pretty sure you're safe to stop responding to him. Everyone else has stopped listening to him.

Because you were called out on your misguided personal attack doesnt mean everyone has stopped listening.

The big kids are having a civil disscussion, you are free to join in when you have something of value to add.

HondaMasterTech
05-26-2009, 9:25 PM
This is an interesting topic because while UOC is legal in california, the law states that a gun is considered loaded when ammunition capable of being fired from the firearm is in possession of the person, unless Im mistaken. Its like saying you can have a car but no gas.

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 9:27 PM
Silly rabbit, nobody reads stickies. If I ran a forum (... again), I would have a multiple choice test as part of the reg process. If you pass 100%, gaining admittance, then deviate from the answers in your posts, BAN.

I don't suffer fools gladly.

A forum where everyone agrees? Wow, that would make for really interesting disscussion.

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 9:32 PM
A forum where a hailstorm of FUD, BS, trolling, flame-baiting, spam, flooding, and content inappropriate for minors isn't flying 24/7 for the mods to be overburdened with.

Liberty1
05-26-2009, 9:33 PM
unless Im mistaken..

You are partially ;)

read "what is loaded" http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

HondaMasterTech
05-26-2009, 9:38 PM
That link wont open for me.

Canute
05-26-2009, 9:47 PM
That link wont open for me.

It just has to be done right:
What is Loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)?

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 9:53 PM
That link wont open for me.

CLick here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)

KylaGWolf
05-26-2009, 9:57 PM
I believe this all boils down into two main points:

There are those who feel UOC is a bright idea and there are those who disagree.

At the risk of over-generalizing (uh, oh, now I've done it) the two camps are at odds as to which is the better fight. To get "shall issue" to pass, or to use UOC to try to overcome the bias against guns in public.

Of course each side has its merits.

On the LCC/LOC/CCW side, folks want the status quo to change, so that one need not be the movie star, brother-in-law of the sheriff, or other polically connected person in order to be able to show "good cause" for carrying and thereby exercising a fundamental right of self protection.

On the UOC side, folks use "civil obedience" and work within the law to show several things:
1. unless one is part of the exclusive CCW club, UOC is the only way to legally carry a sidearm, and even then one must be careful of 626.9 and other "sensitive areas".
2. by carrying in public, and being an upstanding member of the community, it shows that guns aren't evil and can be allowed out of the gun safe.
3. by demonstrating that firearms can be part of everyday life, they lose more and more of their "evilness" or novelty.

Remember when only rich folks had cellphones when they first came out? Everyone would stop and stare and wish that someday, they, too, could have the luxury of a cellular phone. Nowadays, if you don't have a cellphone you're seen as an oddity. UOC is a way of attempting to turn around a train of thought that guns seen in public, carried by everyday folks, is somehow bad.

The greater the amount of good exposure, the better it is for all who want to advance the pro-2nd amendment agenda.

As for me, I'd love to have the choice of LOC or CCW without government intrusion or limitations. I think it would be great to have to decide, "Hmm, night out for dinner... I think I'll wear the coat and tie with the shoulder holster rig and tomorrow, when we head up hte hill for camping, while setting up the camp site, it will be the belt holster, exposed". But until I have that choice, UOC is the only way I can legally carry a sidearm.

We're all ambassadors of our fight for 2nd-amendment rights, and bickering amongst ourselves does not put our best foot forward. We should always remember that our opponents read our words too. Lively debate is healthy, anything less than being gentlemanly does not further our collective cause.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! If I had a choice I would prefer LOC or CCW, but for now my only choice is LOC. Your last paragraph says it all.

KylaGWolf
05-26-2009, 10:11 PM
is there a map to tell exactly where the 1,000 feet is on the school boundary line...

and

does a church that has sunday school count as being a school?

A sunday school would not count but if they held regular school classes there then it would count. As for the figuring out if you are in the 1000' range best thing to do is do a google map search and do it the old fashioned way and measure.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 10:18 PM
Founding fathers also said women cant vote and black folk arent really people.



Ive never personally seen a LEO open carry without a badge next to the gun. You may have, but I highly doubt its common practice.

Now, how am I an elitist? I dont have a CA CCW, Im not against open carry, Im merely bringing the fact that an unloaded pistol on your hip WILL NOT help you in a self defense situation, either as a deterrent or a defensive weapon. I hope you never have to learn that harsh lesson for yourself.



I know your revolver is unloaded because openly carrying loaded is against the law and you would have to be a complete and total idiot or a dedicated activist to openly break the law that way.

I wont stake my life on an unloaded firearm, yours or mine.

Criminals are already following people home from gun shops and firing ranges to steal their firearms, and its happening in states that freely issue CCW permits! To think the unloaded revolver on your hip is any kind of deterrent to a criminal is flawed logic and needs to be reconsidered.



Because you were called out on your misguided personal attack doesnt mean everyone has stopped listening.

The big kids are having a civil disscussion, you are free to join in when you have something of value to add.

Got quotes?

Having a gun in general WILL HELP a situation. Last I checked, the 1st rule of a gun fight is bringing a freaking gun, not begging a delay to retrieve it at home.

The day I have learned my harsh lesson, you will be the first to know.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean people aren't not doing said illegal activity.

Got stories on people getting followed home from ranges? I am sure it has happened but I am curious.

While you may THINK my revolver is unloaded, how can you be certain that it is IN FACT unloaded? Would you, a potential criminal, hazard to guess? How do you know I am not a cop, bail bondsman, off-duty security guard, a fisherman/hunter on the way to/from a trip, a casual federal agent, or any other government entity? Take out the fact that most of you know that I am a 22 yr old semi-translucent/near albino guy that has posted pictures up on his blog of himself... how are you to REALLY know?

Just to let you (and everyone) all know, I think it is totally stupid the way the laws are and yes, UOC is not the best option for a lot of people, especially considering the restrictions, the preparation needed and the higher level of scrutiny that you are bringing yourself without the immediate ammunition to back it up, particularly in a state like California, where gun ownership has been equated to being criminal in many instances.

HOWEVER, if you choose not to be an overwrought gelding and instead fight back (I am in college, I have to protest SOMETHING, right?) then do it and go FULL BORE (.44!)! It is a great way to get people talking and getting them involved in the sport and the passion for civil liberties. Like I always tell people, it is like bringing a puppy to a bar... you are SOOO going to get phone numbers... same thing with a gun, you are going to get people to talk.

OK, back to my film paper. I freaking hate this damned paper.

KylaGWolf
05-26-2009, 10:24 PM
Criminals are already following people home from gun shops and firing ranges to steal their firearms, and its happening in states that freely issue CCW permits! To think the unloaded revolver on your hip is any kind of deterrent to a criminal is flawed logic and needs to be reconsidered.


OK either put up hard printed facts on this or move on.

KylaGWolf
05-26-2009, 10:25 PM
This is an interesting topic because while UOC is legal in california, the law states that a gun is considered loaded when ammunition capable of being fired from the firearm is in possession of the person, unless Im mistaken. Its like saying you can have a car but no gas.

Only if you put the gas in the car :D

CavTrooper
05-26-2009, 10:37 PM
OK either put up hard printed facts on this or move on.

http://www.wftv.com/news/10963235/detail.html

Not every crime makes the news.

Why the anger?

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 11:43 PM
OK either put up hard printed facts on this or move on.

Yep, not like the media shies away from portraying guns and EVERYONE who possesses them in a negative light 24/7/365!

Old Timer
05-27-2009, 6:33 AM
You do not have the 1 second to defend yourself, ever. Unarmed in any way you have less of a chance than the 1 second it takes to lock and load.By the time you realize there is a threat, its already too late. Maybe for you, but I maintain a cognizant awareness of my surroundings. Don't you?Im not sure where you folks learned about self defense, but Id go get a refund.A very long life starting with the US Army, then Law Enforcement, and now serving in the private sector as Director of Physical Security for a tier 1 defense contractor. Not to mention Pistol instructor. Self Defense instructor. Range Master. Weapon Retention instructor. Etc., etc.

And you?

Maestro Pistolero
05-27-2009, 7:16 AM
Unarmed in any way you have less of a chance than the 1 second it takes to lock and load. Maybe for you, but I maintain a cognizant awareness of my surroundings. Don't you?A very long life starting with the US Army, then Law Enforcement, and now serving in the private sector as Director of Physical Security for a tier 1 defense contractor. Not to mention Pistol instructor. Self Defense instructor. Range Master. Weapon Retention instructor. Etc., etc.

And you?

Not every self defense situation requires a quick-draw. Another point not mentioned much is the deterrent aspect of a visible firearm. It's not without risks, of course, and a robber, etc. is probably not going to assume the gun is unloaded. That could either cause them to hesitate or to shoot preemptively.

JDoe
05-27-2009, 7:20 AM
Criminals are already following people home from gun shops and firing ranges to steal their firearms, and its happening in states that freely issue CCW permits! To think the unloaded revolver on your hip is any kind of deterrent to a criminal is flawed logic and needs to be reconsidered.
OK either put up hard printed facts on this or move on.
http://www.wftv.com/news/10963235/detail.html

Not every crime makes the news.

Except for the fact that the article makes no mention of where the guns were when the men were robbed. The article you cite offers no suggestion that carrying an unloaded revolver on your hip isn't any kind of deterrent to a criminal.

The way I read things KGW was asking you to provide facts that support your statement, "To think the unloaded revolver on your hip is any kind of deterrent to a criminal is flawed logic and needs to be reconsidered." Now to be fair to you KGW may have known that you can't prove your statement to be true because it is flawed to begin with. Because we are talking about human nature the falseness of your statement is built-in.

It is also possible that you thought KGW was asking you to provide some facts regarding your statement that, "Criminals are already following people home from gun shops and firing ranges to steal their firearms, and its happening in states that freely issue CCW permits!" But once again if you examine this statement of yours in relation to the news article you posted the two have very little to do with each other. Stealing is not robbery, i.e. larceny is not the same thing as larceny by threat of violence.

Why the anger?

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but would this be considered baiting?

ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 8:21 AM
I have always maintained that knowing how to fight is WAY more important than having a gun on your hip (even loaded). If you take your self defense seriously, then put the unloaded 1911 back in the safe and go sign up at a gym. It doesn't take much either...one day of Muay Thai and one day of BJJ per week and you've just increased your chances of living through and attack or winning in a fight ten fold.

ChuckBooty
05-27-2009, 8:44 AM
And for the record..I support UOC as a form of activism and an all around "Stick it to the Man" kinda thing. But as a form of self-defense it's the same thing as putting up an ADT Home Alarms sign in your yard when you really don't have an alarm. It may deter some, but there's always that one guy who isn't buying it.

bodger
05-27-2009, 10:22 AM
You do not have the 1 second to defend yourself, ever.

By the time you realize there is a threat, its already too late.

Im not sure where you folks learned about self defense, but Id go get a refund.

Based on that logic, there's no reason to carry in any condition then because it's already too late?

So, if I'm carrying loaded, open or concealed, and I realize there is a threat, it's already too late to defend myself?

Wherever you learned about self defense, I'd be interested to know what they taught to overcome "already too late".

Glock22Fan
05-27-2009, 10:26 AM
Based on that logic, there's no reason to carry in any condition then because it's already too late?

So, if I'm carrying loaded, open or concealed, and I realize there is a threat, it's already too late.

This sums up my argument from a different direction.

Sometimes it (uoc) isn't going to help, sometimes it is.

On the occasions it isn't going to help, it does no harm (except for the, I think, red herring of getting your gun stolen).

On the occasions it is going to help, then it is going to help.

Even if the occasions that it is going to help are only 1% of the total occasions, then uoc does more good than harm.

AaronHorrocks
05-27-2009, 12:51 PM
And for the record..I support UOC as a form of activism and an all around "Stick it to the Man" kinda thing. But as a form of self-defense it's the same thing as putting up an ADT Home Alarms sign in your yard when you really don't have an alarm. It may deter some, but there's always that one guy who isn't buying it.

If I'm UOC'ing a pistol, and I have a loaded mag in my 5.11 tactical pant's mag pouch, it takes less than one second to load the mag into the pistol, and again, less than a second for me to chamber a round.

ZirconJohn
05-27-2009, 1:02 PM
Very interesting... thank you for sharing the audio.

nukechaser
05-27-2009, 1:36 PM
This is an interesting topic because while UOC is legal in california, the law states that a gun is considered loaded when ammunition capable of being fired from the firearm is in possession of the person, unless Im mistaken. Its like saying you can have a car but no gas.

Not exactly. Here's the text from the penal code: SECTION 12031(g): A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

The case law on this is: People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99

Carrying ammo for your UOC gun is ok, it just cannot be placed into a position from which it can be fired.

For UOC it boils down to two methods of carrying ammunition.

For semi-autos, it means carrying a full magazine separate from the sidearm, but exposed or "openly". This is because it has been determined that a magazine is an integral part of a semi-auto and concealing it is proscribed.

For revolvers it is pretty simple to see that a speed loader is not an integral part of the firearm. So one could carry a speed loader rolling around in one's pocket... not that it lends itself to rapid employment of the gun if needed if it is jangling around in your change pocket, which is why most wheelgun aficianados who UOC carry speed loaders in belt pouches.

So it really isn't a car without gas, it is more of a car with a quickly filled gas tank that can be driven quickly if needed. It is as simple as draw the gun with strong hand while drawing a full magazine with the other, dropping the empty as you clear the holster, full magazine insertion and grab the slide as you "punch to the point" with a straight trigger finger. Like anything, if you practice enough, it becomes easier to do; usually less than 2 seconds.

N6ATF
05-27-2009, 6:35 PM
If I'm UOC'ing a pistol, and I have a loaded mag in my 5.11 tactical pant's mag pouch, it takes less than one second to load the mag into the pistol, and again, less than a second for me to chamber a round.

Less than a second? Unacceptable!!! You must have your gun ready 5 seconds before any deadly attack to have any chance of coming out alive!!!
:rolleyes:

pnkssbtz
05-27-2009, 7:05 PM
I just off the phone with the Sgt in chg of public affairs at Santa Clara Sheriff's Office - he says:

1) there is no memo encouraging deputies to use 'felony stops' on UOCers
2) there is no policy to that effect according to his discussion today with the Under Sheriff in charge of this issue
3) he was pleased to hear of the positive interactions recently -
4) he says that they may ask for the ID in order to confirm that the weapon was not stolen -

NO FUD :rockon:

Let me get this straight, you just spoke to a person who's job is public relations, specifically about a subject in which the agency that the public relations agent represents is involved in dispute involving the very information you are requesting, and you are then claiming that the information he presented to you is not F.U.D.?



Wow...


Would you be interested in purchasing some beach front property in Utah? I also have a bridge to sell you...

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-27-2009, 7:31 PM
Having a gun in general WILL HELP a situation. Last I checked, the 1st rule of a gun fight is bringing a freaking gun, not begging a delay to retrieve it at home.

If I was a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, my first target would be anyone with a gun. I only see UOC really doable in groups. UOC is like playing poker; you show everyone your hand. A few guys will fold, others will know how to play around you.

Theseus
05-27-2009, 10:30 PM
I think I am still missing something. . . We are (I presume) law abiding gun owners.

Regardless of how you would like to SAY you would do it, we are most likely not in the proper mentality to think of what we would do if we were criminals. We are here on a forum to educate ourselves how to prepare for unexpected situations where we might be called to defend ourselves.

We are here to learn how to protect ourselves from the government, criminals, and anyone else looking to do our family, persons, property or rights damage.

So quit acting like the average or common criminal is like us and that they have the forethought to think like a vigilant and educated gun owner.

Besides, why would a criminal attack a person with a gun in a battle they might loose to simply score a gun when they can go buy an illegal gun with practically no risk and little cost?

Old Timer
05-28-2009, 6:28 AM
Not every self defense situation requires a quick-draw.I wholeheartedly agree. Almost every situation I have found myself in over the past 45 years, with one exception, was the result of escalating events leading to gunfire. Only once did I not see it coming, and that was when I was shot from ambush by a sniper. The ability to de-escalate a situation using command presence, direct voice action, and generally making your assailant understand that for him to continue was just too costly, are much better means of de-escalation than a wild west type quick draw. Another point not mentioned much is the deterrent aspect of a visible firearm. It's not without risks, of course, and a robber, etc. is probably not going to assume the gun is unloaded. That could either cause them to hesitate or to shoot preemptively.I agree. Criminals, generally speaking, look for what they consider "soft" targets. The very presence of a firearm yells "hard target" to anyone with an IQ greater than room temperature. :) Of course, if he were smart he wouldn't be a criminal.

Old Timer
05-28-2009, 6:32 AM
If I was a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, my first target would be anyone with a gun.You might consider finding another line of work! :)

pullnshoot25
05-28-2009, 7:40 AM
If I was a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, my first target would be anyone with a gun. I only see UOC really doable in groups. UOC is like playing poker; you show everyone your hand. A few guys will fold, others will know how to play around you.

Gosh, if I had a nickel for every time I heard this statement.

TatankaGap
05-28-2009, 9:55 AM
Let me get this straight, you just spoke to a person who's job is public relations, specifically about a subject in which the agency that the public relations agent represents is involved in dispute involving the very information you are requesting, and you are then claiming that the information he presented to you is not F.U.D.?



Wow...


Would you be interested in purchasing some beach front property in Utah? I also have a bridge to sell you...

Utah's a great state - very protective of my gun rights - if it's near a lake, send pics - otherwise, don't bother me with it.

I have only 20 years of continuous experience dealing with government and government reps with all kinds of agendas - including many very big 3 letter agencies - and every little bit helps.

As for the FUD I was referring to, it was the FUD on THIS BOARD about how people should fear being UOC in Santa Clara and even wear a vest for fear that the deputies would institute a felony stop with guns drawn, etc. -

I am very satisfied with my conversation with the Sheriff's office. They have my number and are going to call me if something comes up. Also, they will know me if I need to go into the office and speak with them and of course, if there should be any incident, I'll have my Section 1983 case foundation in line -

So, actually, keep your bridge, send pics if you have property to sell and try to ease back on the sarcasm :cool2:

CA_Libertarian
05-28-2009, 12:17 PM
If I was a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, my first target would be anyone with a gun. I only see UOC really doable in groups. UOC is like playing poker; you show everyone your hand. A few guys will fold, others will know how to play around you.

By this logic, CC is useless too. Sure, most the dumb criminals might not know you're armed, but there's plenty that know what to look for. Now they know you're armed, but that they can get the drop on you because you gotta dig through layers of clothing.

Of course - contrary to the claims of some here - it should be rare that a defense situation is a "surprise." I've had to defend my life more than once. I was never caught off guard. In each situation there was at least a few seconds notice that the situation was going south, allowing me to get cover, ready weapons, etc.

From experience, retrieving a concealed weapon or loading an unloaded weapon would be easy to do in the vast majority of self defense situations. Really, paying attention to your surroundings and keeping your cool are FAR more important than how you carry your weapons.

carsonwales
05-28-2009, 1:39 PM
Im not against open carry, Im merely bringing the fact that an unloaded pistol on your hip WILL NOT help you in a self defense situation, either as a deterrent or a defensive weapon. I hope you never have to learn that harsh lesson for yourself.


Pure Hog Swaddle...

Example:

Your in a convenience store towards the back and an armed man approaches the cashier demands cash and then shoots him dead. He does not see you. After pocketing all the cash, grabbing a few pack of smokes and a fifth of Jack, he proceeds to the rear of the store to grab a cold six pack.

Your walking your chihuahua at night in a park and notice several young people on a park bench 50 yards away. They begin cat calling you and threatening to to come and take your money. Eventually several drop off the bench area and begin tailing you 20 yards behind.

Examples are endless...

DDT
05-28-2009, 1:41 PM
Pure Hog Swaddle...

Example:

Your in a convenience store towards the back and an armed man approaches the cashier demands cash and then shoots him dead. He does not see you. After pocketing all the cash, grabbing a few pack of smokes and a fifth of Jack, he proceeds to the rear of the store to grab a cold six pack.

Your walking your chihuahua at night in a park and notice several young people on a park bench 50 yards away. They begin cat calling you and threatening to to come and take your money. Eventually several drop off the bench area and begin tailing you 20 yards behind.

Examples are endless...

A gun would be useless in all these situations to CavTrooper. That is what he stated, you may draw your own conclusions why.

Untamed1972
05-28-2009, 1:51 PM
Pure Hog Swaddle...

Example:

Your walking your chihuahua at night in a park and notice several young people on a park bench 50 yards away. They begin cat calling you and threatening to to come and take your money. Eventually several drop off the bench area and begin tailing you 20 yards behind.

Examples are endless...

You avoid something like this example by using your head and not being in the park alone at night in the first place!

Some situations can be avoided.....some cannot. No point in putting yourself in situations where it's more likely you would need to defend yourself. The best gunfight is one you're not in.

Do some research in your niehgborhood and find out when most liquor/convenience store robberies occur. Most of them prolly don't happen during the day between 6a-6p. Unless you have no choice....frequenting convience / liquor stores after 11pm is greatly increasing your chances of finding yourself in the middle of robbery.

Don't let the gun on your hip take the place of the brain in your head.

truthseeker
05-28-2009, 1:58 PM
You avoid something like this example by using your head and not being in the park alone at night in the first place!

Some situations can be avoided.....some cannot. No point in putting yourself in situations where it's more likely you would need to defend yourself. The best gunfight is one you're not in.

Do some research in your niehgborhood and find out when most liquor/convenience store robberies occur. Most of them prolly don't happen during the day between 6a-6p. Unless you have no choice....frequenting convience / liquor stores after 11pm is greatly increasing your chances of finding yourself in the middle of robbery.

Don't let the gun on your hip take the place of the brain in your head.

I SHOULD be able to walk anywhere in the United States at any time of day without fear of getting mugged/harassed/assaulted, but since that is NOT the case I would rather UOC than not UOC.

Untamed1972
05-28-2009, 2:04 PM
I SHOULD be able to walk anywhere in the United States at any time of day without fear of getting mugged/harassed/assaulted, but since that is NOT the case I would rather UOC than not UOC.

Yes...you SHOULD be able to do that. You SHOULD also be able to walk naked thru the lion cage at the zoo wearing a raw steak around your neck and not get mauled. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should or that it's a good idea.

Again I say......dont let the gun on your hip replace the brain in your head. If the park at night is not a place you would choose to go unarmed.....then even armed it should not be a place you would choose to go.

Having the gun on you in the park at night is no guarantee you WILL come out the victor if you're attacked. So why choose to put yourself in the situation of having to find out how good of a gun fighter you are and hope you win?

Decoligny
05-28-2009, 2:22 PM
If I was a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, my first target would be anyone with a gun. I only see UOC really doable in groups. UOC is like playing poker; you show everyone your hand. A few guys will fold, others will know how to play around you.

No, If you were a bad guy with the intent of robbing a place, your first target would be a store WITHOUT a customer with a gun.

If you were to spot a customer with a gun in a store you were planning to rob, you would almost certainly move on to a softer target, or wait until the customer with the gun left.

Most "robbers" are just that "robbers". They usually don't go in with the intention of killing anyone.

bulgron
05-28-2009, 2:26 PM
Pure Hog Swaddle...

Example:

Your in a convenience store towards the back and an armed man approaches the cashier demands cash and then shoots him dead. He does not see you. After pocketing all the cash, grabbing a few pack of smokes and a fifth of Jack, he proceeds to the rear of the store to grab a cold six pack.

Your walking your chihuahua at night in a park and notice several young people on a park bench 50 yards away. They begin cat calling you and threatening to to come and take your money. Eventually several drop off the bench area and begin tailing you 20 yards behind.

Examples are endless...

There is a very good real-world example of how UOC can help someone. I don't remember her name, but there was a woman in Texas who almost single-handedly got Texas to go shall-issue on CCW after she watched a madman gun down a bunch of people (including her own parents) in a McDonalds restaurant. She had a loaded gun, but it was in her car due to a lack of carry rights and so of no use to her. I'm sure she would have gladly given up that loaded gun in her car for UOC that day.

Old Timer
05-28-2009, 2:48 PM
There is a very good real-world example of how UOC can help someone. I don't remember her name, but there was a woman in Texas who almost single-handedly got Texas to go shall-issue on CCW after she watched a madman gun down a bunch of people (including her own parents) in a McDonalds restaurant. She had a loaded gun, but it was in her car due to a lack of carry rights and so of no use to her. I'm sure she would have gladly given up that loaded gun in her car for UOC that day.Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, and it was a Luby's. But you are right. No gun = dead people. Gun = dead criminal.