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eltee
05-25-2009, 7:18 PM
Do folks who practice UOC tend to go high profile (tan leather holster and black Pachmayer grips set against blue jeans and a light colored shirt, worn on strong side ) so that the gun can be seen when approaching from a distance or do folks try to go low profile by wearing colors that tend to blend in with the gun and holster?

Does UOC require a full size holster or would belt slide holsters and/or inside the belt (IWB) holsters (with butt exposed above beltline) be OK?

If someone had a small of the back carry, and a shirt/pants combo in colors that camouflaged a small, unloaded firearm this might be low profile enough not to attract alot of attention vs. wearing that tan holster with a 6" revolver with target grips on the side.

In my jurisdiction I've never encountered a person engaged in UOC so I just wanted to get a little insight on it.

cineski
05-25-2009, 7:24 PM
I wouldn't small of your back carry. There's a heightened risk for spinal cord injury if you fall on your back.

Turo
05-25-2009, 7:27 PM
Does UOC require a full size holster or would belt slide holsters and/or inside the belt (IWB) holsters (with butt exposed above beltline) be OK?

I would suggest NOT going with IWB carry. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the law says it needs to be in a holster to prevent the "concealed" label. In any case, make sure you have the funds to pay for legal help if you get arrested.

CitaDeL
05-25-2009, 8:05 PM
To coin a phrase- Open carry means OPEN.

I think making any attempt to camoflage the fact that you are armed could be construed to be concealment. IWB holster would probably be a bad idea, especially if your shirt is not tucked in. If the weapon was in the position to become concealed, even breifly, a carrier would put themselves into the 'likely to be arrested' category.

As cineski mentioned, SOB poses a risk of serious injury- the other problem I see is with retention. With it in the 6 o'clock, it is an attractive target for a snatch as it is not protected by your arm.

Out in the world, I open carry in an Uncle Mikes Pro-3 retention holster, suspended strongside at the 3 o'clock position on a black duty belt with keepers. The holster is positioned slightly away from my hip and is low enough that even if my shirt became untucked, it could not become covered. Sometimes the belt is covered, sometimes not. The holster and sidearm are always exposed.

I would say that any OWB holster with at least level one retention would be adequate provided no garment covered it. Most people do not see a handgun as a handgun- as they usually see people with mobile phones, pagers, and blackberries holstered. Beyond that, people presume that if you are carrying a firearm, that you are permitted, licensed or otherwise authorized.

phamkl
05-25-2009, 8:50 PM
Yeah... I don't think I've ever seen anyone panic and flee from a man with a holstered gun.

I wonder why Carolyn Macarthy would say if she were hiking in a national forest and saw a couple of guys and girls in flannel, cargoes, hiking shoes, eating granola, and open carrying. I think someone ought to try legally open carrying around her and giving her a friendly "howduyah do, ma'am?" with a warm neighborly smile.

Although I suppose the temptation to shoot her just for irony's sake would be really great.

JDay
05-25-2009, 9:13 PM
I wouldn't carry IWB, too much risk of both someone calling in saying there's a man with a gun in his waistband and a cop saying its concealed. I'm also fairly certain that it cannot be even partially concealed.

Flopper
05-25-2009, 11:41 PM
some people seem to be assuming the OP means the so-called "mexican style" when he says "iwb," when he clearly states "iwb HOLSTER."

Quiet
05-25-2009, 11:55 PM
Some LEOs view that if the holster is partially concealed (IWB holster), then the handgun is concealed.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 1:16 AM
1) IWB is considered partial concealment. Read the Oceanside PD memo on that on californiaopencarry.org.

2) All of my gear is black. It blends in with everything I wear and it is a high ride holster. If people see it they see it, though more often than not it is overlooked. As for viewing purposes, I have been known to position myself for maximum exposure in various establishments.

3) When I walk into places that might be angsty (like movie theatres), I simply slide the gun to the 4-430 position and walk through. Once in, I readjust to 3.

4) No one that I have seen has freaked out about me wearing a holstered gun. However, apparently 300 people came to talk with the Captain at the SD meetup in February that were apparently scared.

5) Holsters can be any material or any configuration as long as they are EXTERNAL to the pants. NO IWB!

6) NEVER UOC with a SOB holster, even if OWB!

7) What is your locale?

Hope this helps you out.

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 1:22 AM
I would suggest NOT going with IWB carry. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the law says it needs to be in a holster to prevent the "concealed" label. In any case, make sure you have the funds to pay for legal help if you get arrested.

I believe the law says it needs to be on a belt holster; I OWB belt holster ~

JDay
05-26-2009, 1:55 AM
6) NEVER UOC with a SOB holster, even if OWB!

Why not? I like being able to remove my holster quickly. The way the clips are I have to use both hands to get them off my belt. Not easy to pull off me.

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 6:03 AM
Why not? I like being able to remove my holster quickly. The way the clips are I have to use both hands to get them off my belt. Not easy to pull off me.

Try defending from a snatch...

RANGER295
05-26-2009, 7:24 AM
I believe the law says it needs to be on a belt holster; I OWB belt holster ~

Why is a shoulder holster not OK? The one time I did it, that is how I carried. When I LOC when hiking and hunting, I use an M-12 flap holster on a LC-II pistol belt.

Army
05-26-2009, 7:34 AM
The law does not say what type of holster. However, full flap types have been determined to NOT be concealed as the purpose of the holster is still clear.

Shoulder holsters are OK, but ONLY if you do not wear anything over it..

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 7:51 AM
The law does not say what type of holster. However, full flap types have been determined to NOT be concealed as the purpose of the holster is still clear.

Shoulder holsters are OK, but ONLY if you do not wear anything over it..

The man is correct.

It is like sheath knives... knives affixed openly at the waist are not concealed. This, however, does not mean that strapping a knife to your leg, underside of the arm, etc. is concealed.

MudCamper
05-26-2009, 9:00 AM
Most people do not see a handgun as a handgun- as they usually see people with mobile phones, pagers, and blackberries holstered.

While this is true, I find the opposite is true with myself. All the holstered gadgets people wear these days always catch my eye and draw my attention. "Gun? Nope. Phone."

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 9:50 AM
The law does not say what type of holster.

Actually, to be correct, Penal Code Section 12025(f) specifies a belt holster:

"(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section."

***

These laws are crazy enough - due process concerns would dictate that a shoulder holster ought to be OK but in a place like Kalifornia where it's hard enough to get the gov't to stick to the letter of the law, I wouldn't risk UOC with a shoulder holster in CA -

Theseus
05-26-2009, 10:33 AM
12025(f) is to be considered not a singular exemption, but an example.

A shoulder holster can be openly worn, but usually isn't. Provided it is not covered by a coat or jacket I would say it is legal regardless of the lack of specified exemption. Same as a drop-leg holster.

bodger
05-26-2009, 10:54 AM
I live in Los Angeles near the border of West Hollywood.
One of my guns is a Glock 30. I have a Fobus roto paddle holster that I clip onto a sturdy belt in cross-draw config. Separate holder for the ten round magazine.

For the past few weeks, I have been carrying open and unloaded in the early evenings when I walk my dogs. So far, I have been passed by Los Angeles County Sheriff cars, and two LAPD cruisers, one of which was being driven by the senior lead officer for my area whom I have met at various cimmunity crime watch meetings. He waved to me. I don't think any of the officers in either car noticed my weapon in UOC.

It is a bit unnerving to say the least, but in the abscence of the possibility of obtaining a CCW, UOC is the only way I feel safe whilst out and about at night.

I do NOT see anyone else carrying in the open, I can tell you that.


EDIT TO ADD: By the way, does the magazine have to be in the open as well as the firearm? Or could it be out of view?

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 11:28 AM
By the way, does the magazine have to be in the open as well as the firearm? Or could it be out of view?

Mag can be out of view

MudCamper
05-26-2009, 11:58 AM
EDIT TO ADD: By the way, does the magazine have to be in the open as well as the firearm? Or could it be out of view?

Mag can be out of view

No. Not entirely true. Let me quote from the CaliforniaOpenCarry.org FAQ (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html):

I've heard concealed magazines are illegal. Is that true?

While there is no code that supports this, there was an appellate case in 1974, People v. Hale (http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/calapp3d/43/353.html), that ruled this way. It ruled that although the firearm in question was not concealed, the magazine was, and that only partial concealment is still concealment, and that the magazine was an "essential component" of the firearm. The logic is tortured beyond belief, but it currently could be used as a persuasive precedent in court. One way to avoid this pitfall is to carry your magazines in belt holsters, so that they match the 12025(f) language of "carried openly in belt holsters". Another option would be to keep an unloaded magazine in the firearm, thereby "completing" the firearm, and invalidating the asinine "essential component" logic.

Army
05-26-2009, 12:58 PM
Actually, to be correct, Penal Code Section 12025(f) specifies a belt holster:

"(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section."

***

These laws are crazy enough - due process concerns would dictate that a shoulder holster ought to be OK but in a place like Kalifornia where it's hard enough to get the gov't to stick to the letter of the law, I wouldn't risk UOC with a shoulder holster in CA -

What I meant, and obviously didn't make clear enough, was no law dictates what exact type of holster you must use: leather, polymer, cordura, no flap, full flap, shoulder rig, thigh rig, full combat drop style etc.. Only that it is in the open and completely in view.

As long as no part of the firearm is hidden/covered by clothing in any way---including using an IWB holster.

grammaton76
05-26-2009, 2:18 PM
If you want low profile, you should use LUCC. Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry. I recently found my Blackhawk sample and have been wearing it around lately.

eltee
05-26-2009, 2:52 PM
Thank you for all the replies.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to the UOC laws and I would always give a guy a break who was cooperative, but where I work UOC is not often practiced. I figure a 3 second loaded condition check and the pro forma police sniff test and we're gone.

I might prolong the contact if the gun was interesting and the owner felt like chatting about it. It's like traffic stops, if the guy has an interesting vehicle sometimes I'll coverse with him/her about the ride after our business is over.

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 3:12 PM
If you want low profile, you should use LUCC. Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry. I recently found my Blackhawk sample and have been wearing it around lately.

Where does one find these "Blackhawk samples"? LOL

CitaDeL
05-26-2009, 7:31 PM
Thank you for all the replies.

You're welcome. I appreciate your willingness to thoughtfully discuss the practice of exposed carry.

JDay
05-26-2009, 7:52 PM
Try defending from a snatch...

I always carry a knife and believe be, if I were to get in a struggle over my gun they will feel that steel.

bodger
05-26-2009, 8:06 PM
No. Not entirely true. Let me quote from the CaliforniaOpenCarry.org FAQ (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html):

How friggin' retarded do we have to get in our quest to cover all possible bases. If I'm understanding that, it is saying that we should keep an empty mag in the gun, and the loaded mag on our belts in plain view.

So, SHTF, I have to pull the weapon, drop the dead mag, remove the hot mag from my belt and insert.

We're gettin' into judged by 12 or carried by six country here. Might as well full load the damn thing, conceal it, hope to never get caught and take the misdemeanor hit if I do.
I won't do that, because the weapons vio would probably preclude future gun ownership, but Christ!

I gotta get outta here to AZ.

N6ATF
05-26-2009, 8:28 PM
I don't think I've ever seen someone comment on the different ways of empty mag changes. There's vertical drop hoping gravity does the job, pulling it out manually, and trying to whip the gun with the release engaged so it flies out. Anyone want to time those?

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 8:49 PM
I always carry a knife and believe be, if I were to get in a struggle over my gun they will feel that steel.

Well yeah, on strongside or crossdraw, but SOB seems a lot harder to defend against...

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 8:52 PM
Thank you for all the replies.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to the UOC laws and I would always give a guy a break who was cooperative, but where I work UOC is not often practiced. I figure a 3 second loaded condition check and the pro forma police sniff test and we're gone.

I might prolong the contact if the gun was interesting and the owner felt like chatting about it. It's like traffic stops, if the guy has an interesting vehicle sometimes I'll coverse with him/her about the ride after our business is over.

Chatting it up post-12031 (regardless of how unconstitutional the 12031 check is) is perfectly legitimate. What is not OK, however, is all the other bullcrap that cops try to throw in.

Also, being "cooperative" and "compliant" are two different things. Many people confuse those two terms, oftentimes to their own detriment.

ojisan
05-26-2009, 9:06 PM
I don't think I've ever seen someone comment on the different ways of empty mag changes. There's vertical drop hoping gravity does the job, pulling it out manually, and trying to whip the gun with the release engaged so it flies out. Anyone want to time those?

The race gun guys and lots of competition shooters use gravity drops of empty mags all day long. Some add weight to the mag to help it drop out even faster. With the right gun and mag pouch, the mag change can be very fast indeed. UOC guys could even use a extra heavy mag dedicated to this purpose.

GoodEyeSniper
05-26-2009, 9:33 PM
How about a Dirty Harry-esque .44 magnum, strapped on your back, so you could draw it like a ninja?

edit: I guess revolvers have even more of a handicap in regards to UOC, though...

Still a decent sized club, though.

aethyr
05-26-2009, 10:28 PM
What about UOC a gun that is so small, its hard to make it "open"? I'll use an extreme example, the NAA mini revolver...maybe wear it like a necklace? :D

But even the p3at/ruger lcp - if the gun self conceals by its very nature, does the law require to make it more conspicuous?

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 10:37 PM
12025(f) is to be considered not a singular exemption, but an example.

A shoulder holster can be openly worn, but usually isn't. Provided it is not covered by a coat or jacket I would say it is legal regardless of the lack of specified exemption. Same as a drop-leg holster.

Due process would require the same conclusion ~ IMHO

RANGER295
05-26-2009, 10:38 PM
How about a Dirty Harry-esque .44 magnum, strapped on your back, so you could draw it like a ninja?

edit: I guess revolvers have even more of a handicap in regards to UOC, though...

Still a decent sized club, though.

You bring up a very interesting idea. I believe it is illegal to have any kind of baton or club on your person. But what if you had a long revolver? I have seen some with 12”+ barrels in catalogs. That would be just as effective as a baton. When the cop asks you why you are carrying a big long wheel-gun across your back, you can say, “Because it is illegal to have a club officer.”:p

TatankaGap
05-26-2009, 10:40 PM
No. Not entirely true. Let me quote from the CaliforniaOpenCarry.org FAQ (http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html):

Thanks for that note about the 1974 case - I don't see how that could hold up in a post-Heller, post-Nordyke world :D

GoodEyeSniper
05-26-2009, 10:58 PM
What do people in cold weather do? I can get away with a light sweater in the coldest of months here. But what about places that hit freezing temps, have freezing rain, etc...?

I saw one of the OC trash pickup day videos. And it was a rainy day, so some had ponchos on that got pretty damn close to concealing the firearms from certain angles.

I mean, it's obviously going to be concealed from at least one direction, ie: if you can only see my left side profile, you won't see the gun on my right hip. But how far does that go?

pullnshoot25
05-26-2009, 11:02 PM
What do people in cold weather do? I can get away with a light sweater in the coldest of months here. But what about places that hit freezing temps, have freezing rain, etc...?

I saw one of the OC trash pickup day videos. And it was a rainy day, so some had ponchos on that got pretty damn close to concealing the firearms from certain angles.

I mean, it's obviously going to be concealed from at least one direction, ie: if you can only see my left side profile, you won't see the gun on my right hip. But how far does that go?

Short oilskin jacket should be OK and look sexy at the same time.

Other options are drop leg or chest rig and let yourself REALLY be known, like I have here:

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r369/calgunfun2/orosco%20ridge%204-11-09/201_2461.jpg

JDay
05-26-2009, 11:05 PM
Well yeah, on strongside or crossdraw, but SOB seems a lot harder to defend against...

Oh, I was thinking of a holster that slides onto the belt. Wasn't even thinking small of back when I first read that.

JDay
05-26-2009, 11:08 PM
What about UOC a gun that is so small, its hard to make it "open"? I'll use an extreme example, the NAA mini revolver...maybe wear it like a necklace? :D

Hah! That thing is more of a novelty than anything.

pullnshoot25
05-27-2009, 12:14 AM
Oh, I was thinking of a holster that slides onto the belt. Wasn't even thinking small of back when I first read that.

Aaah, now we are on the same page, good sir :)

CA_Libertarian
05-27-2009, 10:34 PM
4) No one that I have seen has freaked out about me wearing a holstered gun. However, apparently 300 people came to talk with the Captain at the SD meetup in February that were apparently scared.

And those are just the people that talked to her personally, not including the thousands that talked to the other officers there... also not including the millions that were so afraid that they were petrified into inaction!


...OK, she didn't really say the rest of that... but I bet she would have if she thought she could get away with it. Even the news people (not to be confused with real "reporters") in SD might smell that one.

CA_Libertarian
05-27-2009, 10:36 PM
Try defending from a snatch...

Come on now... we both know that gun snatches just don't happen.

However, as noted above, SOB carry poses a risk of back injury. As someone with chronic pain from a back injury (not firearm carry related), I discourage taking any unnecessary risks with your back. It's not worth it.

N6ATF
05-27-2009, 10:53 PM
I first heard about SOB risks in regard to handcuffs back there, though I'm not sure how many have reorganized their belts. I try to center my nitrile glove pouch back there, padding rather than hardness, and keep my cuffs forward of the gun strong-side.

demnogis
05-28-2009, 9:34 AM
How friggin' retarded do we have to get in our quest to cover all possible bases. If I'm understanding that, it is saying that we should keep an empty mag in the gun, and the loaded mag on our belts in plain view. You're correct. :thumbsup: I think the questions on the specifics are good because CA has laws that are very technical and complex. It's either full compliance or none...

So, SHTF, I have to pull the weapon, drop the dead mag, remove the hot mag from my belt and insert.

We're gettin' into judged by 12 or carried by six country here. Might as well full load the damn thing, conceal it, hope to never get caught and take the misdemeanor hit if I do. CC without a permit could be 2 misdemeanors, possibly $2,000+ in fines, possibly 3-9 months in state or county jail, definite restriction on firearms possession and purchasing for a set amount of time, definite impound of your $100-$500 pistol. (IANAL) If it's your first offense who knows, plea bargains work wonders.

Personally, I just UOC in respect of the (unconstitutional) laws in the hopes that they'll be overturned soon... Maybe in two weeks?

bodger
05-28-2009, 11:39 AM
You're correct. :thumbsup: I think the questions on the specifics are good because CA has laws that are very technical and complex. It's either full compliance or none...

CC without a permit could be 2 misdemeanors, possibly $2,000+ in fines, possibly 3-9 months in state or county jail, definite restriction on firearms possession and purchasing for a set amount of time, definite impound of your $100-$500 pistol. (IANAL) If it's your first offense who knows, plea bargains work wonders.

Personally, I just UOC in respect of the (unconstitutional) laws in the hopes that they'll be overturned soon... Maybe in two weeks?

Yeah, that's why I would never CCW illegally, even out of frustration. But I have a feeling in the area where I live, right on the border with West Hollywood, I'm going to be treated as a felony stop, even if I'm doing everything within the law.

And the time I want to carry the most is when I walk my dogs in the evenings. What a cluster f#@k that would be, having a cop detaining me felony-style whilst trying to wrangle my beasts. Friendly as they are, my dogs are uber-protective and would get a whiff of a cop looking to take me down and the S would hit the F pretty quick.

Is it worth it to even visit the local cop shop and state my intentions to UOC and hear what they have to say? There has been a rash of street robberies in my area (unsolved, by the way), most of which have involved two dudes jumping out of a car and confronting their victims. So far, only one gun has been reported displayed in the robberies.