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View Full Version : which swiss rifle makes for a better shooter


rogdigity
05-25-2009, 8:58 AM
im looking between a k31 and 1911 swiss rifles. i want to build up a great little target/match type rifle. i dont plan to change the barrel but may if it is needed. i need some input on which route is better for my application. i chose to go swiss because i hear all of their rifles are great right out of the factory and they last long too.

ocabj
05-25-2009, 9:28 AM
What kind of matches?

Tony.
05-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Leave the C&R's alone. It would be a crying shame to bubba a K31 or 1911 rifle. Shoot them as is and enjoy the workmanship, think about how advanced these rifles were for their day.

If you are looking for something to start with then build up on in the future, then go with a Remington 5R. A lot more options and less dirty looks at the range.

Pthfndr
05-25-2009, 10:35 AM
If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go. No need to "bubba" anything. You can by the front and rear sights made by Swiss Products (St. Marie) from Graf & Sons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter4.jpg

If you want to shoot in vintage rifle "as issued" matches, either will be good, but the 1911 has a reputation for slightly better accuracy. It IS substantially longer than a K31 though which can be a problem for some people in off hand shooting.

If you're thinking of something scoped, yeah you can do that without altering the rifle, I've done it. But there are better choices.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31%20VPS/CTRS001r.jpg

SDJim
05-25-2009, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE=Pthfndr;2530723]If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go. No need to "bubba" anything. You can by the front and rear sights made by Swiss Products (St. Marie) from Graf & Sons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Curios%20and%20Relics/K31Diopter3.jpg


If you want to shoot in vintage rifle "as issued" matches, either will be good, but the 1911 has a reputation for slightly better accuracy. It IS substantially longer than a K31 though which can be a problem for some people in off hand shooting.

If you're thinking of something scoped, yeah you can do that without altering the rifle, I've done it. But there are better choices.


Does rear sight have enough elevation to get out to 1000yds with GP11 or equivalent ammunition?

Pthfndr
05-25-2009, 11:38 AM
Does rear sight have enough elevation to get out to 1000yds with GP11 or equivalent ammunition?

No. 600 is for sure. Depending on manufacturing tolerances of the receiver 800 might be possible. I have one that will make it with the clamp on rear diopter set up, but all my others don't quite make it.

I have a front sight that St Marie made and sent me a few years ago. It's lower and allows the rifle to be used out to 1000 yards and then some. But it zeros at about 300-350 yards as the shortest distance.

rogdigity
05-25-2009, 11:40 AM
i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?

and im not so much looking to jump into matches right away. never did one. its something id like to get into though if possible but i dont even know where to begin. i shoot most all of my rifles with surplus ammo and havent spent nearly enough time honing my skills with a nive set of ammo. thats why i was hoping on getting something better out of the swiss, seeing as how the surplus costs more than decent commercial, it will kinda make my buy some good quality ammo for it.

the springfield i have now is scoped & stocked and is a really straight shooter, but i didnt build it myself. i bought it because it was already built by someone else. therefore it has no sentimental value to me, so im trying to get rid of that rifle to get a stock one to work up myself. i figured the k31 has a hell of a reputation, has a nice look, has plenty of ammo available without huge demends (like the 30.06 for the springfield) for a decent price, and you can find plenty of parts and stocks for them.

rogdigity
05-25-2009, 11:41 AM
... and maybe get into match later with the k31

Pthfndr
05-25-2009, 1:04 PM
i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?

http://www.grafs.com/search?q=swiss+products&SwatButton1=Search&_swat_form_process=search_form&_swat_form_serialized__swat_form_process=v686ck7G3 djc0es7LVS9Sg|s%3A11%3A%22search_form%22%3B&_swat_form_hidden_fields=fDk71VXcXJddn45*bdDhwg|a% 3A1%3A{i%3A0%3Bs%3A18%3A%22_swat_form_process%22%3 B}

The same lists the clamp on scope mount you see in my scoped K31 picture.

Do search for K31s on Calguns in the Curio and Relic forum. There are quite a few pictures of them with various scope set ups.

ETA: FYI, changing the barrel on a Swiss rifle is not easily done. It's not like doing it on a Rem/Win/Savage at all.

If you are near the Sacramento area come check out the Milsurp Silhouette match at the Sac Valley range on the 3rd Saturday of every month. Lots of K31 rifles, with issue sights, scopes, and diopters are used.

rogdigity
05-25-2009, 1:36 PM
san diego. ill check the site thopugh. thanks. also, not familiar with barrel swaps, but i know someone who will gladly take my money and do it for me

popeye4
05-25-2009, 2:03 PM
i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?

and im not so much looking to jump into matches right away. never did one. its something id like to get into though if possible but i dont even know where to begin. i shoot most all of my rifles with surplus ammo and havent spent nearly enough time honing my skills with a nive set of ammo. thats why i was hoping on getting something better out of the swiss, seeing as how the surplus costs more than decent commercial, it will kinda make my buy some good quality ammo for it.

the springfield i have now is scoped & stocked and is a really straight shooter, but i didnt build it myself. i bought it because it was already built by someone else. therefore it has no sentimental value to me, so im trying to get rid of that rifle to get a stock one to work up myself. i figured the k31 has a hell of a reputation, has a nice look, has plenty of ammo available without huge demends (like the 30.06 for the springfield) for a decent price, and you can find plenty of parts and stocks for them.

You don't need to do anything more to a K31 to make it shoot. They can be had for around $300 or less now. The Carmel Gun Club shoots at the Swiss range in Gonzales for the first four months of the year (http://www.carmelgunclub.com/SWISS%20Matches.html). All Swiss rifle matches are shot at 300m on Swiss targets (the A10 target has a 10-ring that is only a few inches across). Also, you can't get any better than surplus Swiss GP11 ammo (it is what the Swiss use for match ammo). Commercial stuff won't be as good. I picked up a 480 rd case for $275 from Ammoman a couple of months back.

BTW, that sight setup is the Ste. Marie Graphics sight and I got mine at Grafs. They accept the Gehmann and Anschutz diopter attachments as well as the iris that comes with it. No gunsmithing required, they just bolt on (a requirement to use them in Swiss matches).

As another poster mentioned, don't chop up the old guns. They aren't made any more and there are enough butchered up Springfields, etc. out there. If you want to build up an accurate "target" rifle, get a Savage and go from there.

4 Brigada
05-25-2009, 2:32 PM
If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go.

+1
Pthfndr NICE K-31, those sights are not inexpensive, but they are certainly worth it.

rogdigity
05-25-2009, 3:02 PM
As another poster mentioned, don't chop up the old guns. They aren't made any more and there are enough butchered up Springfields, etc. out there. If you want to build up an accurate "target" rifle, get a Savage and go from there.

point well taken. will invest in the swiss surplus ammo too

popeye4
05-25-2009, 3:13 PM
Check out www.swissrifles.com for more info.

rogdigity
05-26-2009, 4:27 PM
http://www.grafs.com/search?q=swiss+products&SwatButton1=Search&_swat_form_process=search_form&_swat_form_serialized__swat_form_process=v686ck7G3 djc0es7LVS9Sg|s%3A11%3A%22search_form%22%3B&_swat_form_hidden_fields=fDk71VXcXJddn45*bdDhwg|a% 3A1%3A{i%3A0%3Bs%3A18%3A%22_swat_form_process%22%3 B}



so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?

Pthfndr
05-26-2009, 6:23 PM
so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?

The type P comes with both the front aperture sight assembly and the rear sight assembly that clamps directly to the receiver. (what I have)

The PII also comes with both front and rear sight assemblies, but the rear sight is of the type that clamps onto one of their clamp on scope mounts - which clamps onto the receiver - but does NOT include the clamp on scope mount.

The PIIC includes everything in the PII set up PLUS the clamp on scope mount.

If you have the money I would recommend getting the PIIC. That way you can use the aperture sights, and you can also remove the rear sight and stick a scope on it.

The Swiss Products website has better pics than Graf and good pictures. But they do not sell direct.

http://www.swissproductsllc.com/

popeye4
05-26-2009, 6:28 PM
so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?

Their site isn't exactly clear, is it? I purchased the STDIOA03 and it is the front sight plus the shorter rear mount with iris. That seems to be the one that the Swiss shooters in Monterey use.

You could drop a note to Grafs to get an explanation of the different models. They should make their site a bit more informative.

FYI, for the sight to be legal for use in Swiss shooting, the aperture sights have to be bolt on. Gunsmith sights aren't allowed.

rogdigity
05-26-2009, 6:31 PM
FYI, for the sight to be legal for use in Swiss shooting, the aperture sights have to be bolt on. Gunsmith sights aren't allowed.


thats cool, im down with these. expensive, yes. cool looking, YES

Pthfndr
05-26-2009, 8:28 PM
I did this with the K31 with the aperture sights, prone with a sling, at 100 yards on a reduced (to the correct size) Swiss target. I did lose one out the left :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Targets/ProneDiopter.jpg

For size reference, here's the Swiss target next to the standard 100 yard SR1 target.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Pthfndr/Targets/SwissSRTarget.jpg

popeye4
05-26-2009, 8:36 PM
The Swiss A10 target is the same as the international ISSF 300m target. The A5 target is shot on the same A10, but you double up the rings to give 5 rings (instead of 10), so the 9 and 10 ring are the 5 ring, the 7 and 8 rings are the 4 ring, etc. The ISSF targets have a target black that is 8 moa across, the NRA highpower target is 6 moa across. It is a challenge, to say the least!