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aplinker
05-24-2009, 11:16 PM
I figured since this was buried in another thread it should really be discussed elsewhere.


Instead of the traditional magnet tool idea using the "pull" from the opposite side (on the bar of the catch), what about using a magnet push from the regular button side. This would prevent the "sticking" issues where the tool is a part of the rifle (magnet attaching to the rifle catch).

In essence, you install a cage with a strong magnet on top of the catch. You can still operate as a normal BB through a hole, but if you bring a stong magnet of the opposite polarity, the catch will be pushed out. You could install the magnet on a ring or glove and it would never stick to the rifle, as the magnet would be repelling the action.

I'll draw a schematic real quick.

That would be 100% legal. Darin, care to do it? :D ;)

here's a schematic... just like a regular BB, but with a strong magnet on top of the bolt. There might need to be some added stuff to the "cage" to make it work better.

Anyways...

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x82/uclaplinker/magneticBB-1.jpg

Potential issues: magnet strength. Would have to be sufficient to overcome the spring for the push distance required.

The nice thing is, even if you brought the magnet in the wrong way, it would attach, but not be an AW, as it would pull the catch tighter.

The magnet "tool" could be in the form of a ring or on a glove.

series8217
05-24-2009, 11:29 PM
Me and my roommate were just discussing this and I was doing some experimentation. Another member here found this post in the original thread, where member ldivinag claimed to have a patent pending on it:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1042532&postcount=46

much simpler is the LEO DEVICE (tm) (c 2008)... (patent pending)

replace the BB with a magnetic plunger. the tool to release it is another magnet but in the opposing pole...

as you bring it close to the mag release button, it pushes the magnet inside the cavity to the left, therefore releasing the mag...

simpler...


In any case, I already ordered the necessary magnets from McMaster to do some testing. They'll be here in a few days.

aplinker
05-24-2009, 11:34 PM
I have a bunch of strong magnets, but none are small enough for my BB... I guess I could use an extension to play with it.


The cage could be modified in size to get a strong enough magnet in there. I do know i have some ~5mmDx3mmH cylinders that would have enough strength. Anyways, it's a good idea for people to consider.

I guess I forgot about that discussion... some things get lost in our brilliant collective memory of CG. ;)

series8217
05-24-2009, 11:38 PM
I have a bunch of strong magnets, but none are small enough for my BB... I guess I could use an extension to play with it.

The cage could be modified in size to get a strong enough magnet in there. I do know i have some ~5mmDx3mmH cylinders that would have enough strength. Anyways, it's a good idea for people to consider.


I ordered the following part numbers from McMaster; these will fit in the bullet button:
5902K52 Machinable Neodymium Disc Magnet .236" Diameter, .079" Thick, .3 Pull lbs

5902K53 Machinable Neodymium Disc Magnet .236" Diameter, .157" Thick, .7 Pull lbs

They may be too thick to use safely (someone with pointy fingernails could press it in), so I will test them on a featureless rifle where that won't be a problem.
If it works the end can be capped with plastic or aluminum, or as you suggested, a longer cage could be made.

aplinker
05-24-2009, 11:43 PM
I ordered the following part numbers from McMaster; these will fit in the bullet button:
5902K52 Machinable Neodymium Disc Magnet .236" Diameter, .079" Thick, .3 Pull lbs

5902K53 Machinable Neodymium Disc Magnet .236" Diameter, .157" Thick, .7 Pull lbs

They may be too thick to use safely (someone with pointy fingernails could press it in), so I will test them on a featureless rifle where that won't be a problem.
If it works the end can be capped with plastic or aluminum, or as you suggested, a longer cage could be made.

I'm betting those magnets are insufficient in strength. Pull power is more than push, unless they're right on one another, and you're going to need to do it over a distance to maintain legality.

series8217
05-24-2009, 11:48 PM
It only needs to move ~1/16" to drop the mag, so I should be able to get close enough to achieve that. If necessary, the cage can be completely enclosed (no hole to use as a bullet button) and the face can be very thin, so the magnets are almost touching when held close. A pinhole could be put in the face of the cage for emergency actuation with a pin or small allen key if you lose your magnet.

The Bacon Eater
05-24-2009, 11:58 PM
Great idea.

Q
05-25-2009, 12:03 AM
Use the force my son..:D
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/jedi-entrepreneur-mind-trick.jpghttp://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/jedi_force_trainer.jpg

MT1
05-25-2009, 1:02 AM
The magnet that I used (mentioned in the other thread) was from one of my smaller pen magnets and was about .250" dia. + tall. It was more than powerful enough to pull the mag catch into the open position, the question like you said is the mounting/packaging of a magnetic pair strong enough to use the repelling force to operate the catch from the traditional side.

Should be interesting testing. :thumbsup:

duraglock
05-25-2009, 7:58 AM
Guys I sold 30 prototype magnetic bullet button tools to guys several months ago during a prototype run. A patent application is going in on them production ones should be out by the middle of next month. They are really nice and function is perfect. Will post a picture. Have been recoil tested and stay put. Perfect for out of state use,22 conversions and shtf. They fit perfect in the magpul maid grip which one of the beta testers found out. Had to put these on the back burner while working on the ak maglock so now I can move forward on these.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=169662

aplinker
05-25-2009, 8:35 AM
Guys I sold 30 prototype magnetic bullet button tools to guys several months ago during a prototype run. A patent application is going in on them production ones should be out by the middle of next month. They are really nice and function is perfect. Will post a picture. Have been recoil tested and stay put. Perfect for out of state use,22 conversions and shtf. They fit perfect in the magpul maid grip which one of the beta testers found out. Had to put these on the back burner while working on the ak maglock so now I can move forward on these.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=169662

I'm confused... are we talking about the same thing?

If you're talking about a bullet button extension that gets attached to the BB for use during SHTF or out of state, that's not what this is (and I doubt you'll get a defensible patent, as there's tons of prior art and people who have been using that).

This is a bullet button that's actuated by a magnet. For use in CA.

duraglock
05-25-2009, 8:58 AM
Yes mine is out of state use.Have not seen another one but thats not to say someone has a similar idea.Look at all the different locks. Same but different in certain ways. I think magnets have tons of promise for the california market. Several more items im working on use them.

MT1
05-25-2009, 11:21 AM
Sounds like a totally different item to me.

TKM
05-25-2009, 11:28 AM
Magnetic padlocks were around a few years ago. Until someone figured out that smacking them with a stick was enough to overcome the magnetic pull of the mechanism.

Does the DOJ rapping them with a stick constitute tool use? Probably, who knows if they would sit there and bang on your weapon?

Just a thought.

Cal-Irish
05-25-2009, 11:34 AM
I also had that idea. However, I found just training with http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=177645 got me quick mag changes and it took a hell of a lot less engineering. Magnet idea still would be cool though.

Reno
05-25-2009, 12:22 PM
Hey guys, I think this is a great idea. However I think there are two main obstacles that you will first have to overcome.

The first being magnet strength. I agree with uclaplinker that the McMaster magnets you ordered will be insufficient. The biggest issue with magnets is that their magnetic strength degrades exponentially with distance. This means that you will have to get much stronger magnets then needed to simply overcome the spring force of the mag release. McMaster is great because they are fast and have an excellent search function, but I would suggest looking at a magnet supplier for a better selection.

The other problem I see is actually getting the force out of the magnets. What I envision is that when you go to use your magnetic tool, the opposing forces of the magnet will be so strong that they will just "dance" around each other and it will be difficult to align them. I would suggest building some kid of alignment feature into either the bullet button or the tool. It could be as simple as a recess in the button that is the size of the tool, or a flange on the tool that sits around the button. Either way, this would align the two magnets and allow for maximum repelling force.

Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

norcal77
05-25-2009, 12:43 PM
Funny...I was toying around with this idea months ago..it can work you just need some really strong magnets.

The magnets I had definitely would be the ones you need. I had some that came from some old ATMs we were retiring..they were the ones that released/closed the cash door. They were small and super powerful..the tool I had in mind was the magnet from inside a hard drive..another really powerful magnet. Just some ideas for you guys...

Technical Ted
05-25-2009, 12:53 PM
Magnets attract magnetic particles.

As a kid did you ever drag a magnet through dirt or sand by accident or on purpose? The magnet picked up ferrous particles, usually gritty in nature.

recshooter
05-25-2009, 1:50 PM
Interesting.

Seems like it might be difficult to get them to align.

The key issue might be if you can get enough force on the mag-release before the magnets slip out of alignment due to the repelling force.

Definitely will keep watching this for news.

nicoroshi
05-25-2009, 6:43 PM
Interesting idea

This is a good point though:>>>

Magnets attract magnetic particles.

As a kid did you ever drag a magnet through dirt or sand by accident or on purpose? The magnet picked up ferrous particles, usually gritty in nature.

Any thought on combating magnetic particle buildup in the mag catch mechanism?

Texas Boy
05-25-2009, 6:55 PM
Any thought on combating magnetic particle buildup in the mag catch mechanism?

Are any of the mag catch parts ferrous? If so they would eventually become magnetized and pick up particles as well.

aplinker
05-25-2009, 7:13 PM
Magnetic padlocks were around a few years ago. Until someone figured out that smacking them with a stick was enough to overcome the magnetic pull of the mechanism.

Does the DOJ rapping them with a stick constitute tool use? Probably, who knows if they would sit there and bang on your weapon?

Just a thought.

Except for the magnet, there would be no difference with a standard mag catch set-up - which (if you beat the hell out of it) would also work on a BB. But then, a good beating on an SKS would cause it to become detachable, as well. :)

Magnets attract magnetic particles.

As a kid did you ever drag a magnet through dirt or sand by accident or on purpose? The magnet picked up ferrous particles, usually gritty in nature.

Yeah, an issue... on the outside of the BB is fine, but if it's open particles would collect. You could imagine sealing it, though. And to answer another question, it wouldn't matter if there were something ferrous or not (the catch is) as the magnet on the BB would still pick up junk.

Interesting.

Seems like it might be difficult to get them to align.

The key issue might be if you can get enough force on the mag-release before the magnets slip out of alignment due to the repelling force.

Definitely will keep watching this for news.

I thought about this... in the end I think I'm going to end up that a guiding mechanism (like the BB funnel) with a standard finger tool is a better choice ;) Simple is usually better. But hey, the idea is still sexy.

626Tony
05-25-2009, 7:15 PM
Great idea !

ar15barrels
05-25-2009, 7:34 PM
Since you guys are talking about mag catch force and I happen to have a force gauge, I put my force gauge to a mag catch on a lower with an empty magazine inserted.
I took about 10 measurements.
I measured between 3.5 and 4lbs, with most times getting 3.8lbs.

madmike2uu
05-25-2009, 10:10 PM
If you're looking for really strong magnets:

http://www.unitednuclear.com/magnets.htm

The warning on their page says the magnets will smash the bones in your fingers if you were to get between two trying to "attach" to each other.

Mike

sorensen440
05-25-2009, 10:17 PM
Id like one with an electric button and a wireless key fob

Technical Ted
05-25-2009, 10:33 PM
Id like one with an electric button and a wireless key fob
How about a USB port and an ethernet connection?

DULLYJAY
05-25-2009, 11:08 PM
LOL Ted. Hella funny.

aplinker
05-26-2009, 12:27 AM
How about a USB port and an ethernet connection?

Rule 34... guess you gotta get some on your AR, too, Ted? ;)

Artery
05-26-2009, 1:08 AM
You've also got to remember you need a magnet rated for more force than what is just required to actuate the magazine catch because the further the catch gets from the magnet (the one outside of the rifle) the less force is going to be applied. Not sure how far the catch has to go. At least 1/4in.

sreiter
05-26-2009, 9:22 PM
^ that is the OP who came up with this idea on another thread (not the op of this thread) - had that exact idea in mind

the op of this thread turned it into something else

sreiter
05-26-2009, 9:24 PM
Rule 34...

been on 4chan for a year - still cant figure out what rule 34 is ??????

Bruce3
05-26-2009, 9:24 PM
^ that is the OP who came up with this idea on another thread (not the op of this thread) - had that exact idea in mind

the op of this thread turned it into something else

thanks, i didnt read the entire OP just saw the pictures :p

aplinker
05-26-2009, 9:52 PM
been on 4chan for a year - still cant figure out what rule 34 is ??????

http://www.aionsource.com/forum/attachments/legion-recruitment/209d1205905679-noble-phantasm-rule34starwars.jpg

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Tiamat97/Rule34-1.png

http://holycrapthatsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/rule-34-4.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a160/davidlory/rule34.jpg

http://rule34.info/rule34.jpg

NeoWeird
05-27-2009, 1:15 AM
I hope you're happy...

You just made me drop an hour and a half at /b/

aplinker
05-27-2009, 3:13 AM
I hope you're happy...

You just made me drop an hour and a half at /b/

I've only gone their once... I have a buddy who sends me funny stuff. He's my "connection" to the geek underground.

glock_this
05-27-2009, 6:17 AM
Potential issues: demagnetize your credit cards

put a magnet on a ring, every time you reach for your wallet and pull out a CC, it demagnetizes your credit cards :)

sreiter
05-27-2009, 6:47 AM
I hope you're happy...

You just made me drop an hour and a half at /b/

AT LEAST THAT LONG on my way to page 10 (15 now)

lol @ rule 34. i read the official rules of the board 5x trying to figure out what rule 34 was - thanks

MasterYong
05-27-2009, 8:23 AM
I don't get it. Why even bother, don't the regular BBs function perfectly? What purpose would a magnetic version serve other than to prevent you from detaching the mag without a special tool, rather than almost any tool? It seems to me, that with magnets involved, that the price to the end customer would be significantly higher than the standard BBs, so there had better be some sort of major improvement in this magnetic model otherwise I just don't see the point. The current BBs satisfy the letter of the law, don't they? I'm all for new toys but this seems like a serious waste of time and money.

I invented my own Bullet Button once. You need a taser to remove the mag. That's right. A taser. :rolleyes:

sorensen440
05-27-2009, 8:25 AM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule%2034been on 4chan for a year - still cant figure out what rule 34 is ??????

sreiter
05-27-2009, 9:26 AM
^ thanks - got it - duh..never thought about the urban dictionary

strange that /b/ is the 2nd most visited site on the net (assuming /b/ didnt just rig the voting...tons of hackers there)

MasterYong
05-27-2009, 9:38 AM
^ thanks - got it - duh..never thought about the urban dictionary

strange that /b/ is the 2nd most visited site on the net (assuming /b/ didnt just rig the voting...tons of hackers there)

Most visited website in the world is Google.com, and Yahoo.com is number two (they were number one up until a few months ago).

I'm not sure what voting you're referring to- did they have a vote on the "best" site, rather than the most visited? It'd be pretty funny to see the results of that.

alexa.com has all the traffic rankings for every website you could imagine. I do search engine marketing and use this site on a regular basis. 4chan is number 94,886- not even close to being number one.

gunn
05-27-2009, 10:43 AM
Here's a concern:
credit cards and cell phones don't like magnets -- especially really strong rare earth magnets.

Q: When you are not using the mag release, where are you going to store it? If you put it in the wrong pocket, poof, there go your credit cards.
-g

unusedusername
05-27-2009, 6:30 PM
Ummm wouldn't a magnetic latch release cause all kinds of issues with steel cased/steel core ammo?

Also, I think some of my mags are made of steel...

And if we are talking about really strong magnets... I think the bolt carrier group is ferrous as well.... If we are talking REAL rare earth magnets, not the crap they sell at the mall/computer store but the ones you order for a chem lab then they will affect the usability of the weapon.

Also, how do you intend to get the tool unstuck off the side of the rifle when it inevitably flips around and gets stuck. I have some rare earth magnets I use as gag fridge magnets. They wont come off. People think they are glued.

glock_this
05-27-2009, 6:32 PM
Here's a concern:
credit cards and cell phones don't like magnets -- especially really strong rare earth magnets.

Q: When you are not using the mag release, where are you going to store it? If you put it in the wrong pocket, poof, there go your credit cards.
-g

I beat you to it.. see post #37

I guess great minds think like me :)

aplinker
05-27-2009, 7:46 PM
sweet lord.... they're not that strong.

The credit card issue reminds me of my buddy... his mother in law was totally into pseudoscience and gave them a mattress with magnets to "align their &*(&(*" (I dunno what it was, but whatever). The fourth time he sat down on it with wallet in pants he decided to toss it out. :)

Seesm
05-27-2009, 8:34 PM
I personally think it is crazy how people on here thought to make a magnetic mag release.... Will one of you give me a bullet button when your magnet set up is all done...? (not the magnet one but your std one your taking off... :)

shark92651
05-27-2009, 10:35 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade but just what is the problem we are trying to solve here? Is inserting a bullet tip or other tool into a hole just too difficult for some people :shrug: Don't forget the golden rule - keep it simple, stupid!

ar15barrels
05-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Don't forget the golden rule - keep it simple, stupid!

I thought the golden rule was "he who has the gold makes the rules"...

MT1
05-27-2009, 11:33 PM
This was just a simple idea that several people have come up with as a potentially faster way to change out mags, I was not even looking to make something for anyone other than myself - either way this works out it would make mag changes as fast as if there was no mag lock, no loss of sight picture, and no changing hands around on the rifle.

Barbarossa
05-28-2009, 8:17 AM
Ummm wouldn't a magnetic latch release cause all kinds of issues with steel cased/steel core ammo?


Yeah, what if the bullets curved and came back at you?! :rolleyes:

glock_this
05-28-2009, 8:40 AM
Yeah, what if the bullets curved and came back at you?! :rolleyes:

then you would loose a finger :eek: at the bare minimum

aplinker
05-28-2009, 10:12 AM
Not to rain on anyone's parade but just what is the problem we are trying to solve here? Is inserting a bullet tip or other tool into a hole just too difficult for some people :shrug: Don't forget the golden rule - keep it simple, stupid!

It's not much more complicated... the intent is speed - getting something as close to a regular mag release as possible.

In the end I think my funnel + tool would be just as good, so I came to the same conclusion.

It's all about making things better/easier/faster.

ar15barrels
05-28-2009, 10:24 AM
then you would loose a finger :eek: at the bare minimum

or maybe poke an eye out.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2255/1528557476_017d687215.jpg?v=0