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View Full Version : If you don't get a CCW, what's next?


squishyhead
05-24-2009, 11:54 AM
I've been thinking about the inevitable letdown that will follow my eventual application for a CCW. What the government will see on my application is that I'm a 24 year old medical student, who pays his taxes on time every year, has absolutely NO criminal record of any kind, and am in general an all around good guy. So naturally after seeing all of this, as well as my good cause being either self defense or my 2nd Amendment right to have a CCW, they'll promptly deny me. My question is, what do I do after that? I know the answer is I basicall have to bend over and take it, but why? Since it is my constitutional right to bear arms, why do any of us have to accept it when the government says we can't have a CCW that allows us to bear arms legally?

What I'm getting at is the legal process that will eventually need to follow such a scenario. Our legislature is NEVER going to give us back our rights, so we're at some point going to have to sue the government in order to get them back. How do you think this will eventually happen. Will someone with my scenario just sue the state? Will an applicant who was denied a CCW, and then left defenseless in a mugging make a case? What will need to happen in order to make California a shall issue state?

hoffmang
05-24-2009, 11:55 AM
The legal process? Are you referring to something like this? http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Sykes_v._McGinness

-Gene

Humboldt
05-24-2009, 11:59 AM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

squishyhead
05-24-2009, 12:03 PM
EXACTLY!!! Thanks hoffmang! I haven't had time to check the threads as often as I'd like, but that looks about right. What will the verdict in this case decide? I'd imagine if the plaintiffs won, they'd be granted CCWs. Does it force those counties to change the law? While my primary interest of course is obtaining my own CCW, it's every law abiding citizen's right to have one if they so desire. Will we all need to sue, or can something happen that'll force a pro CCW shift statewide?

wildhawker
05-24-2009, 12:19 PM
Read through this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180923

Liberty1
05-24-2009, 12:22 PM
EXACTLY!!! Thanks hoffmang! I haven't had time to check the threads as often as I'd like, but that looks about right. What will the verdict in this case decide? I'd imagine if the plaintiffs won, they'd be granted CCWs. Does it force those counties to change the law? While my primary interest of course is obtaining my own CCW, it's every law abiding citizen's right to have one if they so desire. Will we all need to sue, or can something happen that'll force a pro CCW shift statewide?

If we win this case it will give other agencies cause to revise their policies on good cause and good character or get sued.

bodger
05-24-2009, 12:33 PM
If we win this case it will give other agencies cause to revise their policies on good cause and good character or get sued.

I hope the powers that be in Los Angeles get "SHALL ISSUE" shoved down their collective throats.

hoffmang
05-24-2009, 2:03 PM
Sykes is in Federal Court as much to create precedent that the right to bear arms exists in California and that right, even if licensed, doesn't allow arbitrary denial. Assuming we win Sykes, it will almost certainly be appealed and assuming we win the appeal, it will become case law throughout the west coast. All sheriffs will be required to issue a license unless they have specific articulable reasons not to (you're prohibited, etc.)

-Gene

vinny_land
05-24-2009, 2:22 PM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

:thumbsup:Kern County

RANGER295
05-25-2009, 3:28 PM
Sykes is in Federal Court as much to create precedent that the right to bear arms exists in California and that right, even if licensed, doesn't allow arbitrary denial. Assuming we win Sykes, it will almost certainly be appealed and assuming we win the appeal, it will become case law throughout the west coast. All sheriffs will be required to issue a license unless they have specific articulable reasons not to (you're prohibited, etc.)

-Gene

Gene, do you have any estimate as to how long it will take for this case to work through the system?

nicki
05-25-2009, 3:59 PM
I've been thinking about the inevitable letdown that will follow my eventual application for a CCW. What the government will see on my application is that I'm a 24 year old medical student, who pays his taxes on time every year, has absolutely NO criminal record of any kind, and am in general an all around good guy. So naturally after seeing all of this, as well as my good cause being either self defense or my 2nd Amendment right to have a CCW, they'll promptly deny me. My question is, what do I do after that? I know the answer is I basicall have to bend over and take it, but why? Since it is my constitutional right to bear arms, why do any of us have to accept it when the government says we can't have a CCW that allows us to bear arms legally?



It would help if you let everyone know what county/city you are in.

CCW issuance in California fall into the following

1. Will issue
2. May issue
3. No issue except for politically connected.

Even if you are in number 3, it helps to know where you are because others on this board read it.

On the CCW issue specifically, we probably will have victories on a county by county region.

All Politics and cases start locally.

All of us have unique talents and gifts and if we combine our resources, we will make progress alot faster.

Nicki

GuyW
05-25-2009, 4:05 PM
While my primary interest of course is obtaining my own CCW

Not dumping on you, but mine's just the opposite - CCWs for everyone, first.

That way I get mine, and my family's safer when they're out in public without me...
.

squishyhead
05-30-2009, 10:44 AM
It would help if you let everyone know what county/city you are in.

CCW issuance in California fall into the following

1. Will issue
2. May issue
3. No issue except for politically connected.

Even if you are in number 3, it helps to know where you are because others on this board read it.

On the CCW issue specifically, we probably will have victories on a county by county region.

All Politics and cases start locally.

All of us have unique talents and gifts and if we combine our resources, we will make progress alot faster.

Nicki

I live in Los Angeles County, and actually know Sheriff Baca. Having discussed CCWs with him directly, I can gaurantee my county is #4 (move to Alaska)

squishyhead
05-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Not dumping on you, but mine's just the opposite - CCWs for everyone, first.

That way I get mine, and my family's safer when they're out in public without me...
.

I'm not dumping on YOU now, but I'm going to have to call BS on that. Can you actually tell me that if your sheriff/police chief offered you a CCW, you'd refuse it if he didn't allow every citizen to have one? When it comes to being able to carry a firearm for self defense, idealistically I'd hope that all law abiding citizens could get one of course. In reality though, my family's safety as well as my own come before ANYTHING/ANYONE else.

cactustactical
05-30-2009, 10:54 AM
Move to Arizona!!

We are only one state away, move here help our economy grow and protect our borders!

OC and CCW all day every day!

I'm going to start a relocation business enticing the fine citizens of Cali to move to AZ!

(ps) bring some of that beautiful Ocean with you as well! :)


Art

www.SecondAmendmentTaskForce.com

Former USMC RRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Reconnaissance_Platoon)


.

squishyhead
05-30-2009, 11:00 AM
But cactus, wouldn't all the OCs and CCWs make Arizona an extremely dangerous place to live;)

bulgron
05-30-2009, 11:04 AM
It is because of all the people moving to AZ and Nevada in order to get their CCWs (and AWs) that California's finances are what they are.

I should be mad about that, but ....

WAY TO GO, GUYS!!! :D :D

:thumbsup:

cactustactical
05-30-2009, 11:07 AM
LOL.... Only for the people who would dare try to take away my rights! ;)


You would think with the way the lib's think and with as many AZ resident's who carry daily that every fender bender would erupt in gunfire....

It just does not happen... People instinctively know that when carrying a firearm you have more responsibility placed upon you and act accordingly.


Art

www.SecondAmendmentTaskForce.com

Former USMC RRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Reconnaissance_Platoon)


.

hkusp9c
05-30-2009, 3:34 PM
I'm not even planning to apply for one unless Mr. Baca gets replaced.

nicki
05-30-2009, 4:08 PM
Alot of the battles for "EQUAL and FAIR" issue of CCW permits will involve not only the court of law, but the court of public opinion.

From a "Public Exposure" point of view, taking down Sheriff Baca on CCW permits would be something that couldn't be hidden.

The Sacramento case is something that when we win, it won't have as much public exposure as say Los Angeles.

Sheriff Baca is a public figure, especially after the "Paris Hilton" episode last year.

The sheriffs that are in the cross fire for litigation, either filed or soon to be filed are Sheriff McGuiness and Sheriff Hutchens.

Sheriff Baca is the next obvious target, but in order to attack him, we will need alot of resources, both time and money.

For those of you who are in LA, I suggest you get involved with the folks in Orange county first. When Orange county is fixed, it will provide momentum to fix LA.

Most firearms owners have been beaten up so much that they just are unwilling to get up and fight. They feel that there is "NO HOPE'.

I would hope that a victory in either Sacramento or Orange county or both would motivate enough people to take some action.

If LA county was shall issue, 100,000 people probably would have CCW permits. To me, that means 100,000 people should be taking action.

Still, if 1 percent would actually do something, that would be 1000 people taking actions and that is more than we have now.

Nicki

racer_X_123
05-31-2009, 11:11 AM
So what will this case do for a county like Ventura County where they do issue... granted you wait over 1 YEAR to go from application submitted to CCW granted? Will it still take as long or will it go faster due to lack of having to determine "good cause"?

Vacaville
05-31-2009, 11:59 AM
What's next if I don't get a CCW? I'll just continue to not carry and hope my knife is adequate for any situation that comes up.

ErikTheRed
05-31-2009, 3:52 PM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

I think you're missing the point. EVERY COUNTY, in every state, should be a "CCW friendly county". Its a Constitutional right of all law-abiding American citizens.

CCWFacts
05-31-2009, 4:03 PM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

That sounds like reasonable advice, but...

Every CCW-friendly county is one sheriff's election / retirement / indictment away from changing from friendly to unfriendly. The most obvious example is what happened recently in OC. It's possible that Carona's friendly issuance was enough to create a critical mass of people who will be able to defend a "friendly" system, but it's not a sure thing. Even Humboldt or any other location could, conceivably, switch, because the application of the policy is controlled by the whims of the sheriff.

So someone could say, "I need a CCW. I'm moving to ____", and then there's a new sheriff and the guy moved for naught.

No permit in this state is "safe" until we reform the system somehow, whether through the courts or legislature.

Erik S. Klein
05-31-2009, 4:10 PM
I've been thinking about the inevitable letdown that will follow my eventual application for a CCW. What the government will see on my application is that I'm a 24 year old medical student, who pays his taxes on time every year, has absolutely NO criminal record of any kind, and am in general an all around good guy. So naturally after seeing all of this, as well as my good cause being either self defense or my 2nd Amendment right to have a CCW, they'll promptly deny me. My question is, what do I do after that? I know the answer is I basicall have to bend over and take it, but why? Since it is my constitutional right to bear arms, why do any of us have to accept it when the government says we can't have a CCW that allows us to bear arms legally?

My next step is to continue contributing to the right people (NRA, NRA ILA, NRA PVF, CalGuns, etc.) and wait.

If during that wait I end up in any situation that would have been improved by me having a weapon on hand I will sue the state of CA into receivership for having denied my applications.

I have all of the documentation needed to prove that the state violated my civil rights and if there are ever actual damages they will pay.

Everyone else should do the same. Apply for the CCW, use the 2A or some similar justification (I used "to comply with CA law") and keep all documentation for if/when it's needed. ;)

racer_X_123
05-31-2009, 8:32 PM
My next step is to continue contributing to the right people (NRA, NRA ILA, NRA PVF, CalGuns, etc.) and wait.

If during that wait I end up in any situation that would have been improved by me having a weapon on hand I will sue the state of CA into receivership for having denied my applications.

I have all of the documentation needed to prove that the state violated my civil rights and if there are ever actual damages they will pay.

Everyone else should do the same. Apply for the CCW, use the 2A or some similar justification (I used "to comply with CA law") and keep all documentation for if/when it's needed. ;)

So if I do apply and when I get denied, will I have a black spot on my record for when they do change California to Shall issue? Like, when the state is shall issue and I apply will they say "well we see you applied back in 09 and you got denied based on no good cause, so you must not have good cause now."

DDT
05-31-2009, 9:35 PM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

Sounds like the Attorney for Chicago.

gunsmith
05-31-2009, 10:59 PM
Gene, do you have any estimate as to how long it will take for this case to work through the system?
Two weeks!

Invisible_Dave
05-31-2009, 11:47 PM
So if I do apply and when I get denied, will I have a black spot on my record for when they do change California to Shall issue? Like, when the state is shall issue and I apply will they say "well we see you applied back in 09 and you got denied based on no good cause, so you must not have good cause now."

If we win AND change the law to shall issue then good cause will be irrelevant.

Erik S. Klein
06-01-2009, 5:41 AM
So if I do apply and when I get denied, will I have a black spot on my record for when they do change California to Shall issue? Like, when the state is shall issue and I apply will they say "well we see you applied back in 09 and you got denied based on no good cause, so you must not have good cause now."

I can't imagine they'd be able to pull that stunt: "Well, let's see, we illegally denied you two years ago so I guess we'll just have to illegally deny you again."

Midian
06-01-2009, 6:04 AM
Here's a CCW question for you:

would a DUI conviction waaay back in 1991 (when I was 29) be an issue? And what about a few speeding tickets over the years? Are those taken into account as proof that you're a degenerate?

GuyW
06-01-2009, 4:43 PM
I'm going to have to call BS on that. Can you actually tell me that if your sheriff/police chief offered you a CCW, you'd refuse it if he didn't allow every citizen to have one?

Yeah - its called, "not being bought off" from 2nd Am activism. Decided that a long time ago...
.

squishyhead
06-01-2009, 9:16 PM
Yeah - its called, "not being bought off" from 2nd Am activism. Decided that a long time ago...
.

Who's talking about being bought off? No one's saying you'd have to stop fighting for the rights of everyone else in exchange for a CCW. Maybe it's just me, but refusing a license that would allow me to protect my gift of life or that of my family's, because everyone else doesn't get one, is nuts! Just because you have a CCW doesn't mean you have to stop fighting for those who don't have one. In fact, the more responsible CCW holders there are out there, living their lives without causing trouble, the stronger the case that'll make for those without.

GuyW
06-01-2009, 10:30 PM
Who's talking about being bought off? No one's saying you'd have to stop fighting for the rights of everyone else in exchange for a CCW. Maybe it's just me, but refusing a license that would allow me to protect my gift of life or that of my family's, because everyone else doesn't get one, is nuts! Just because you have a CCW doesn't mean you have to stop fighting for those who don't have one. In fact, the more responsible CCW holders there are out there, living their lives without causing trouble, the stronger the case that'll make for those without.

It is if the quid pro quo for a CCW is shutting up....
.

1JimMarch
06-01-2009, 11:22 PM
Yeah - its called, "not being bought off" from 2nd Am activism. Decided that a long time ago...

I had somebody make the offer, but I turned it down cold.

I will admit that I was doubtful they actually had the pull to make it happen, and am still doubtful.

rsandovaljr
06-01-2009, 11:29 PM
You should move to a CCW friendly county.

Why should anyone have to move to be issued a permit. The people who need it most are in the areas that deny permits before you even think about applying for one. Liberty should know no boundaries.

cvgunright
06-15-2009, 3:27 PM
Yeah...Passed the 1st interview for a San Diego CCW was told I could proceed and take the California CCW class.... definitely nervous as someone said before about applying and not getting the CCW it becomes an albatross on your record.

FWIW
1) I am a business owner which I feel was the biggest (+) in my favor.
2) I deal with checks cash in the 2k/daily range
3) have had recorded problems with transients and shoplifters at my store

I really think being a business owner was THE factor for the San Diego Sheriff's dept as when I first called them, they were pretty rude..but then I said I owned my own business and their whole attitude changed.

Hope this helps everyone...

GuyW
06-15-2009, 3:37 PM
Yep - you have the formula....

Yeah...Passed the 1st interview for a San Diego CCW was told I could proceed and take the California CCW class.... definitely nervous as someone said before about applying and not getting the CCW it becomes an albatross on your record.

FWIW
1) I am a business owner which I feel was the biggest (+) in my favor.
2) I deal with checks cash in the 2k/daily range
3) have had recorded problems with transients and shoplifters at my store

I really think being a business owner was THE factor for the San Diego Sheriff's dept as when I first called them, they were pretty rude..but then I said I owned my own business and their whole attitude changed.

Hope this helps everyone...