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View Full Version : DO NOT CARRY IN NATIONAL PARKS....YET!


Liberty1
05-24-2009, 10:36 AM
The recently passed Credit Card bill with the National Park carry amendment doesn't take effect until late Feb. 2010. It is rumored that this same amendment may be attached to other legislation so that it will be effective sooner. That has not yet happened. When it is effective, it is this lay person's opinion that one may carry in NPs to the same extent as they can under the general laws of the state in which the NP is located.

in Ca. this is generally with:

*A state license to carry pursuant to PC 12050 (commonly called a CCW)

*Peace Officer Status

*Openly Carried Pistols in a holster (loaded or unloaded based on application of PC 12031) - longarms may be concealed as 12025 doesn't effect most typical rifles or shotguns (but they are subject to Fish and Game Code Section 2006 - no round in chamber while rifle or shotgun is in a vehicle)

*Poor man's ccw (unloaded in a locked secure case with loaded mag not attached to firearm in a position from which it can be fired)

There are other exemptions to concealed carry mostly found in PC 12027 and loaded carry in PC 12031 which are not addressed here.



Note: it is still unknown to what extent (IF ANY) this amendment has on the DOI enforcing the federal buildings firearm prohibition found in federal law.
Further info on Open Carry in CA: californiaopencarry.org (http://californiaopencarry.org)

DO YOUR RESEARCH, LEARN THE LAWS, READ THE ACTUAL CODES / CASE LAW, AND ALWAYS CARRY A RECORDING DEVICE (EVEN IF NOT OPEN CARRYING)

John Browning
05-24-2009, 10:48 AM
I believe you can carry concealed if you are going fishing, correct? So if I'm on my way to go fishing while in a NP, I'm GTG now, right?

Joe
05-24-2009, 10:53 AM
The recently passed Credit Card bill with the National Park carry amendment doesn't take effect until late Feb. 2010.

Just to make sure you saw, it doesn't take effect till 2010

Liberty1
05-24-2009, 11:06 AM
I believe you can carry concealed if you are going fishing, correct? So if I'm on my way to go fishing while in a NP, I'm GTG now, right?

No you cannot carry yet in a NP, fishing license or not.


As to state law and concealed carry while doing licensed hunting/fishing (outside of NPs) I agree with you BUT there is NO case law that I'm aware of "fleshing out" how this exemption in 12027 is to be applied.

Is it meant to apply from/to you home or from/to where you park your car and hike?

There is also an exemption for members of a shooting range traveling to/from but it says "transporting" which may not be the same as "carrying" upon the person if a judge should get the chance of ruling on the exemption.

So if you are not a peace officer, licensed to carry, or use the conventional unloaded in a secure locked case method, then I'd say use other parts of 12027 at your own risk. But certainly carry a copy of the PC which you are claiming as an exemption as many Peace Officers are not likely to know about them. AND ALWAYS CARRY A RECORDING DEVICE!

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following: (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12020-12040)

...(b) The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person as merchandise by a person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing, importing, wholesaling, repairing, or dealing in
firearms and who is licensed to engage in that business or the
authorized representative or authorized agent of that person while
engaged in the lawful course of the business.
(c) Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Marine
Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, when on duty, or
organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive
those weapons from the United States or this state.
(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person by duly authorized
military or civil organizations while parading, or the members
thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their
respective organizations.
(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.
(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.
(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a
licensed common carrier or an authorized agent or employee thereof
when transported in conformance with applicable federal law...

(j) The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to
carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3
(commencing with Section 12050).

bulgron
05-24-2009, 11:46 AM
I hope this can be in effect by this Christmas. We always visit AZ at Christmas time, I have a Utah CCW, and I like to go to the National Parks in AZ while I'm there. February is just two months too late for me ....

GoodEyeSniper
05-24-2009, 12:16 PM
Just curious about the whole recording device bit. I'd imagine if it's at the point where you actually need it (cops confiscating your weapon and placing you under arrest?) they will also confiscate any recording device and just about anything else in your pockets, no?

Liberty1
05-24-2009, 7:20 PM
Just curious about the whole recording device bit. I'd imagine if it's at the point where you actually need it (cops confiscating your weapon and placing you under arrest?) they will also confiscate any recording device and just about anything else in your pockets, no?


Having one is still better then not. You should read the "police encounters" over at californiaopencarry.org . There has only been one instance of a recorder being turned off during a detention and there has been a complaint filed against that officer by the individual unlawfully detained beyond the scope of a 12031 "e" check.

If an officer wants to destroy evidence then he is taking a very big career risk. I also recommend strongly that one have friendly witnesses. Recordings and witnesses are good during any LEO encounter regardless if one is engaged in OC activism.


And welcome to Calguns! Thanks for joining in the fight!

Holocanthus
05-24-2009, 7:40 PM
in Ca. this is generally with:

...
*Peace Officer Status
...

LEO's can't carry in a national park now? I would have thought they could carry anywhere except for in an airport.

*edit* to add because it reads funny: I didn't mean now as if the law changed, I meant it as at this moment.

GoodEyeSniper
05-24-2009, 7:48 PM
Thanks for the added info on recording devices, Liberty1.

LEO's can't carry in a national park now? I would have thought they could carry anywhere except for in an airport.

It's dangerous for the animals, though...

Liberty1
05-24-2009, 7:54 PM
LEO's can't carry in a national park now? I would have thought they could carry anywhere except for in an airport.

Yes, State Leos can't lawfully carry in a NPs (on duty called to enforce the law is a different story but I haven't seen the exemption). Leo's also can't lawfully carry in a Federal school zone while traveling out of their own state and claiming a concealed exemption under HR 218 unless they are also licensed by that state. (LEOs get your Utah!)

A retired deputy friend of mine has a story about being told at a NP gate to unload and place his firearm in the trunk (he was in an UC vehicle)! I'll ask him about the specifics next time I see him.

pullnshoot25
05-24-2009, 8:08 PM
Having one is still better then not. You should read the "police encounters" over at californiaopencarry.org . There has only been one instance of a recorder being turned off during a detention and there has been a complaint filed against that officer by the individual unlawfully detained beyond the scope of a 12031 "e" check.

If an officer wants to destroy evidence then he is taking a very big career risk. I also recommend strongly that one have friendly witnesses. Recordings and witnesses are good during any LEO encounter regardless if one is engaged in OC activism.


And welcome to Calguns! Thanks for joining in the fight!

Two. I think Demnogis had an issue with that besides mine.

Liberty1
05-24-2009, 8:11 PM
Two. I think Demnogis had an issue with that besides mine.

I can't keep up with all the Sh** you two get into :p

carry on! :79:

gunsmith
05-24-2009, 11:55 PM
I believe you can carry concealed if you are going fishing, correct? So if I'm on my way to go fishing while in a NP, I'm GTG now, right?

NO!

demnogis
05-25-2009, 12:04 AM
I can't keep up with all the Sh** you two get into :p

carry on! :79:

Yes, that happened to me at a mall nearby my house. A few know the story... :chris:

Theseus
05-25-2009, 9:24 AM
Hey Demnogis. . .Your avatar makes me suspect you of a recent case in the news. . . Know the case?

Liberty1
05-25-2009, 9:30 AM
Hey Demnogis. . .Your avatar makes me suspect you of a recent case in the news. . . Know the case?

Thats sick, lets not go there please

People do not need to be defenseless in their own homes. I wish more people strapped on holsters when at home :(. I do.

John Browning
05-25-2009, 10:41 AM
NO!

Very insightful. Thanks.

Timberline
05-25-2009, 1:12 PM
Date: May 22, 2009

Provision will take effect in nine months

WASHINGTON, D.C. – WASHINGTON, D.C. – Today, U.S. Department of the Interior spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff issued the following statement regarding the enactment of a new firearms law for national parks and wildlife refuges that will take effect in nine months:
“The Department of the Interior will follow Congress’s directive and implement the new firearms law, which states that its provisions will take effect nine months from today. For the time being, the current Reagan Administration regulations governing possession of firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges remain in place. Under the current regulation, firearms are generally prohibited, but citizens may transport unloaded and dismantled or cased firearms and carry firearms while participating in approved hunting programs and under certain other circumstances. “As Interior prepares to implement the new law, the Department will work to understand and interpret its implications for our national parks and wildlife refuges, with public safety and the safety of our employees as our foremost consideration. Because possession of loaded weapons on national parks and wildlife refuges will be governed by varying state firearms laws once the new law is implemented, the Department will provide guidance to the more than 24,000 professionals who manage our parks and refuges and the more than 310 million people who visit our parks and refuges each year.”

http://www.doi.gov/news/09_News_Releases/052209c.html

Darklyte27
05-25-2009, 4:09 PM
good to know

Theseus
05-25-2009, 7:27 PM
I was only joshin' 'em.

But in all seriousness that case I think demonstrates VERY clearly that no matter how "safe" something is you can still be the statistic.

Thats sick, lets not go there please

People do not need to be defenseless in their own homes. I wish more people strapped on holsters when at home :(. I do.

gunsmith
05-26-2009, 12:09 AM
Very insightful. Thanks.

Apparently you can CCW while fishing with a license but, no, until
the law takes effect, don't risk a federal felony by doing it in a NP.
National Forest though, I'm pretty sure is ok, just make sure by doing painstaking research with cites you can trust...not just some advice you read online.

chaseman
05-26-2009, 7:03 AM
The recently passed Credit Card bill with the National Park carry amendment doesn't take effect until late Feb. 2010. It is rumored that this same amendment may be attached to other legislation so that it will be effective sooner. That has not yet happened. When it is effective, it is this lay person's opinion that one may carry in NPs to the same extent as they can under the general laws of the state in which the NP is located.

in Ca. this is generally with:

*A state license to carry pursuant to PC 12050 (commonly called a CCW)

*Peace Officer Status

*Openly Carried Pistols in a holster (loaded or unloaded based on application of PC 12031) - longarms may be concealed as 12025 doesn't effect most typical rifles or shotguns (but they are subject to Fish and Game Code Section 2006 - no round in chamber while rifle or shotgun is in a vehicle)

*Poor man's ccw (unloaded in a locked secure case with loaded mag not attached to firearm in a position from which it can be fired)

There are other exemptions to concealed carry mostly found in PC 12027 and loaded carry in PC 12031 which are not addressed here.



Note: it is still unknown to what extent (IF ANY) this amendment has on the DOI enforcing the federal buildings firearm prohibition found in federal law.
Further info on Open Carry in CA: californiaopencarry.org (http://californiaopencarry.org)

DO YOUR RESEARCH, LEARN THE LAWS, READ THE ACTUAL CODES / CASE LAW, AND ALWAYS CARRY A RECORDING DEVICE (EVEN IF NOT OPEN CARRYING)

Hey you mentioned the poor mans CCW, "(unloaded in a locked secure case with loaded mag not attached to firearm in a position from which it can be fired)" It was my understanding that you could not have a loaded magazine in the vehicle. Is this the case?

Any clarification would be helpful or where can I look this up. Thank you guys!

Liberty1
05-26-2009, 10:50 AM
Hey you mentioned the poor mans CCW, "(unloaded in a locked secure case with loaded mag not attached to firearm in a position from which it can be fired)" It was my understanding that you could not have a loaded magazine in the vehicle. Is this the case?

Any clarification would be helpful or where can I look this up. Thank you guys!

Check this thread out for "poor man's ccw":

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061&highlight=locked+concealed+carry

and "what is loaded":

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

chaseman
05-26-2009, 7:25 PM
Check this thread out for "poor man's ccw":

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061&highlight=locked+concealed+carry

and "what is loaded":

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660

Thank you for that and yes excuse me I mispoke/mistyped I meant filled magazine or magazines. I know better than that.

Werewolf1021
06-03-2009, 1:47 PM
So, will this actually affect California? I heard that Yosemite and Sequoia National parks wont be affected by this due to some law in California (this may have only been a rumor). Thanks

DDT
06-03-2009, 4:06 PM
So, will this actually affect California? I heard that Yosemite and Sequoia National parks wont be affected by this due to some law in California (this may have only been a rumor). Thanks


The laws of California will become applicable in National Parks. You cannot carry in violation of California Law just because you are in a national park, but you are not restricted from carrying in accordance with Ca law while in a national park either. (This statute goes into effect around the New Year, I'm sure someone will post the exact date.)

Python2
06-03-2009, 4:36 PM
The wife and I just spent some time visiting National Parks around Wyoming and Utah for two weeks last week. What I am reading here says if you have CCW dont carry in National Park yet.
When we were on our way to Yellowstone I have not read about the bill in congress being signed by Obama, so I unload, disarm and put my FA in the trunk of the car. As I handed our fee to the ranger, he handed us a map and a park newsletter. I was surprise to read an article covering FA in the Park. It was clearly stated that if a person has a CCW permit honored by the state of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana that this person may carry loaded and concealed inside the Park. Did Yellowstone management jumped the gun?

Theseus
06-03-2009, 6:52 PM
I see nothing wrong with a less restrictive law coming into effect before the actual date, especially if this new law might prevent otherwise unnecessary harrasment or criminal charges.

I am sure someone will follow up complaining, but not I.

I would think the effect time period would more be to simply allow persons enough time to get used to and informed of a new more restrictive law.