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yock
05-22-2009, 9:26 PM
I was looking into buying a 80% lower dose any one know if or how to register one?

link
https://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=49&ProductID=239

VaderSpade
05-22-2009, 9:30 PM
Don't need to.

yock
05-22-2009, 9:37 PM
Do you know if I can build it with 'evil' features with a bullet button? Like any lower.

VaderSpade
05-22-2009, 9:45 PM
Once it is built it's just like any other OLL.

Check out the search (80% receiver) there are a few good threads on this subject.

I'm off to the hot tub.

angryasian
05-22-2009, 9:50 PM
seems like a lot of work. not sure if it be worth it

Futurecollector
05-22-2009, 9:57 PM
Super duper hard to do, not worth the time, not worth the money once you mess one up...

goober
05-22-2009, 10:00 PM
Super duper hard to do, not worth the time, not worth the money once you mess one up...
whatever.
"not worth it" is in the eye of the beholder.
benefits of finishing your own lower are known. saving money is, in most cases, not one of them.
but there are many other perks.
its all been discussed at length in other threads. i'll not restate all that here. look and read if it matters to you.

Futurecollector
05-22-2009, 10:04 PM
whatever.
"not worth it" is in the eye of the beholder.
benefits of finishing your own lower are known. saving money is, in most cases, not one of them.
but there are many other perks.
its all been discussed at length in other threads. i'll not restate all that here. look and read if it matters to you.

Yeah that was just MHO, some wanted to try just so "save" money, others wanted to do it for a paperless build, if money is a deal, than obviously go with a built one, if its purely paperless, have access to all the tools and the money and an undying desire to do it than to each his own lol

yock
05-22-2009, 10:22 PM
one is paperless and the other is I like building stuff & saying I did it.

access to equipment is not a prop. a friend has a machine shop & skills I have done quite a bit of machine work.

angryasian
05-22-2009, 10:25 PM
I wasn't trying to offend you either, Ive just been in over my head a lot. but it sounds like youve got what you need. good luck

Hopi
05-22-2009, 10:29 PM
one is paperless and the other is I like building stuff & saying I did it.

access to equipment is not a prop. a friend has a machine shop & skills I have done quite a bit of machine work.

build a pistol.

yock
05-22-2009, 10:32 PM
a pistol is it ok to do in cali?

Hopi
05-22-2009, 10:34 PM
Generally, Calgunners will not recommend that you do something illegal.

That being said....build a pistol.

http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n446/equianous/img244.jpg

jamesob
05-22-2009, 10:35 PM
Super duper hard to do, not worth the time, not worth the money once you mess one up... it all depends on what 80%er you get. some have the magwell broached and fire control area machined out and can be finished with simple tools. the other ones are the pain in the *** where you have to machine the fcg area out.

yock
05-22-2009, 10:36 PM
sooooo how do they shoot? looks like fun :)

Hopi
05-22-2009, 10:38 PM
Shoots great. Really just a play toy, but good stuff.

Mine is a bolt action pistol. No gas system. That you see is a 30rd magazine.

yock
05-22-2009, 10:46 PM
didn't know if it was one of them 10/30s but I just may have to build a pistol. Did you put any #'s or name on yours?

Hopi
05-22-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm going to voluntarily register it, just haven't gotten it completely engraved yet.

I'm going to emulate the HK415 marks, adding my custom model designation, serial number, and manufacturer info of course.....

VaderSpade
05-22-2009, 10:58 PM
My first.http://www.randysrockshop.com/calguns/Dscn6356.jpg

yock
05-22-2009, 10:58 PM
do you know where your going to have the engraving done?

VaderSpade
05-22-2009, 11:01 PM
One of the reasons I like building them is so I can put my and my kids names on them. I'm still designing my logo, but it will have a Spade in it.
Vader

yock
05-22-2009, 11:02 PM
My first.http://www.randysrockshop.com/calguns/Dscn6356.jpg

i like the bare metal look but is it going to corrode?

VaderSpade
05-22-2009, 11:07 PM
I also plan on anodizing in different colors. My girlfriend wants a red one. I will also do some in blue, green, and black. The first one will stay the way it is. It’s a great conversation starter. If you keep it oiled and dry it should be just fine.

Hopi
05-22-2009, 11:14 PM
do you know where your going to have the engraving done?

Most likely, Quentin Laser (http://www.quentin-laser.com/gpage.html)...and Us Anodizing (http://www.usanodizing.com/pricing.htm) for the finish.

Hopi
05-22-2009, 11:15 PM
i like the bare metal look but is it going to corrode?

Anodizing hardens the finish and prevents the holes, threads, and other parts of the aluminum from wearing

yock
05-22-2009, 11:18 PM
the reason I ask about the corrosion is I work on aircraft & it's a big deal with us at work. Also if I do one my wife is going to want on & of course she is going to want it PINK! That means I wont shoot that one. lol.

yock
05-22-2009, 11:22 PM
Most likely, Quentin Laser (http://www.quentin-laser.com/gpage.html)...and Us Anodizing (http://www.usanodizing.com/pricing.htm) for the finish.

I have saved them in bookmarks! thanks

ro442173
05-22-2009, 11:22 PM
I recently bought an 80% forging and jig. Now I just have to get a drill press before I can see if I can actually do it. It seems pretty doable from what I've read... I'm constantly doing more research while trying (emphasis on trying) to save money for the drill press. If I can actually build one, I think that would be it, I would buy like twenty of those things and build as many as I can. Why you ask? Why not? I like the idea of making my own gun(s).

yock
05-22-2009, 11:35 PM
I will be buying the 80% kit as soon as I can, after I finish the Spikes lower build and the wife lets me. LOL!!!

I never thought i would get this kind of support, all the other forums I've been on have not been so friendly to noobs. Thank you guys.

ro442173
05-22-2009, 11:41 PM
I will be buying the 80% kit as soon as I can, after I finish the Spikes lower build and the wife lets me. LOL!!!

I never thought i would get this kind of support, all the other forums I've been on have not been so friendly to noobs. Thank you guys.

Just do it, ask for forgiveness later:thumbsup:

I got the BRD in my bones!:eek:

yock
05-22-2009, 11:52 PM
Just do it, ask for forgiveness later:thumbsup:

I got the BRD in my bones!:eek:

dang it I got caught she read over my shoulder she said only if one is for her in pink.

Futurecollector
05-23-2009, 1:06 AM
dang it I got caught she read over my shoulder she said only if one is for her in pink.

Then paint it pink!!!! man she just gave you a free pass, and if you have the means to actually build it then GO FOR IT MAN, but +1 on the pistol if your going to spend the time and everything atleast do the pistol, lol, Im sure a pink ar pistiol is still pretty cool lol

yock
05-23-2009, 1:14 AM
Then paint it pink!!!! man she just gave you a free pass, and if you have the means to actually build it then GO FOR IT MAN, but +1 on the pistol if your going to spend the time and everything atleast do the pistol, lol, Im sure a pink ar pistiol is still pretty cool lol

she said if I get another one she gets one too. So I get a pistol & she gets pink M4 of course. :thumbsup:
http://www.coldwarshooters.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=668

Santa Cruz Armory
05-23-2009, 1:18 AM
I just want to find a place with decent priced 80%ers. I don't want to waste a couple at the the going rate getting my technique down.

yock
05-23-2009, 1:31 AM
I just want to find a place with decent priced 80%ers. I don't want to waste a couple at the the going rate getting my technique down.

I've been looking around and the best I think of is
https://www.vbd.com//noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=29&ProductID=122
but I am still looking.

ENTHUSIAST
05-23-2009, 1:45 AM
I've been looking around and the best I think of is
https://www.vbd.com//noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=29&ProductID=122
but I am still looking.

After you add it to the cart shipping w/ shipping it comes out to:

$159.45

I was thinking about doing a group buy if there is enough interest I know a vendor that I can get them from in qty for under $150 ea...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2521314#post2521314

ro442173
05-23-2009, 1:47 AM
I've been looking around and the best I think of is
https://www.vbd.com//noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=29&ProductID=122
but I am still looking.

That's the one I bought, It looks pretty doable. I also bought the jig from CNC. Now if I could only save up some cash for a drill press.

yock
05-23-2009, 1:49 AM
http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html
Is a good place for the jig good price I think & at the bottom of the page they have a few links to sites that sell lowers but billet so way more money

ro442173
05-23-2009, 1:51 AM
BTW, I really think that someone should post an instructional video on YouTube. If not, then once I master this I will, but I'm really hoping somebody would as it would help a whole lotta people.

yock
05-23-2009, 1:59 AM
After you add it to the cart shipping w/ shipping it comes out to:

$159.45

I was thinking about doing a group buy if there is enough interest I know a vendor that I can get them from in qty for under $150 ea...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2521314#post2521314

are these just drill & tap lowers or is there milling involved?

yock
05-23-2009, 2:01 AM
BTW, I really think that someone should post an instructional video on YouTube. If not, then once I master this I will, but I'm really hoping somebody would as it would help a whole lotta people.

I would do it but I got to save up for the lower & jig set up I have access to the machines.

ro442173
05-23-2009, 2:06 AM
are these just drill & tap lowers or is there milling involved?

There's a little milling involved. The walls around trigger group pocket need to be shaved off a little. Other than that drill the proper holes and I think you should be set to go... the hardest part I think will be for the buffe rtube. If I screw something up it'll be one!

yock
05-23-2009, 2:07 AM
After you add it to the cart shipping w/ shipping it comes out to:

$159.45

I was thinking about doing a group buy if there is enough interest I know a vendor that I can get them from in qty for under $150 ea...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2521314#post2521314

I can think of at least two guy that would be interested in them but I don't know if they can afford it yet.:confused:

ENTHUSIAST
05-23-2009, 2:19 AM
are these just drill & tap lowers or is there milling involved?

Just drill no tap the buffer tube is already threaded, I think you have to just jig (mill?) the trigger pocket and the mag release has to be drilled but these are the most simple 80% lowers i have seen out there.

I can post up picks if you wannna see exactly since I am not sure of all the exact work that is needed but it looks like the easiest ones and they seem less likely to make a mistake on.

ENTHUSIAST
05-23-2009, 2:21 AM
I can think of at least two guy that would be interested in them but I don't know if they can afford it yet.:confused:

No worries the guy was talking like if I got "a few" he could knock the price down a little bit and if I needed "more than a few" he could definitly go even lower.

yock
05-23-2009, 2:37 AM
No worries the guy was talking like if I got "a few" he could knock the price down a little bit and if I needed "more than a few" he could definitly go even lower.

I will talk around and see how many of them want to buy one. And if your talking like the ones on cnc I just got done reading and looking at the pics on their site.

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 8:44 PM
FYI- ATF determined a year (or more) ago that any 80% lower that had ANY work to the fire control pocket done or the fire control components pin holes drilled, marked, etc are fire arms.

Some of those out there have "narrow" pockets partially opened... yup, you guessed it. ATF says firearm....

"To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)."

ro442173
05-23-2009, 10:15 PM
FYI- ATF determined a year (or more) ago that any 80% lower that had ANY work to the fire control pocket done or the fire control components pin holes drilled, marked, etc are fire arms.

Some of those out there have "narrow" pockets partially opened... yup, you guessed it. ATF says firearm....

"To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)."

Alright I'm suing.

BTW, can you show me the actual law?

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 10:36 PM
It's a "Determination Letter" from BATFE. I make a billet 80% lower and sent a sample to the ATF to make sure I was legal. I got back the same basic letter that another 80% producer got. With my letter, there was a very clear photo of what was not allowed.

Send a your lower to the ATF and ask if what you have is legal to sell without a FFL. Ok or not, I'll trade you one of my billet lowers for their reply letter. Be sure to take a few clear photos for me before you send it in so I can ID it later. I currently make 3 different lower styles... standard mag well, "Colt" style dedicated 9mm and a Sten mag model for Olympic pistol caliber uppers... your choice.http://www.yellowlogic.net/marine-electronics/BILLET.html

Deal?

ro442173
05-23-2009, 10:47 PM
It's a "Determination Letter" from BATFE. I make a billet 80% lower and sent a sample to the ATF to make sure I was legal. I got back the same basic letter that another 80% producer got. With my letter, there was a very clear photo of what was not allowed.

Send a your lower to the ATF and ask if what you have is legal to sell without a FFL. Ok or not, I'll trade you one of my billet lowers for their reply letter. Be sure to take a few clear photos for me before you send it in so I can ID it later. I currently make 3 different lower styles... standard mag well, "Colt" style dedicated 9mm and a Sten mag model for Olympic pistol caliber uppers... your choice.http://www.yellowlogic.net/marine-electronics/BILLET.html

Deal?

I'm not planning on selling my 80%. Does that mean what I purchased is okay? If not then why the f is this company selling them off to unsuspecting joes?

As far as the letter, I'd prefer seeing the actual law. Should I send a letter everytime I need to purchase something? Seems to me like this info should be in the penal code somewhere. I should probably contact my lawyer now.

goober
05-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Just how exactly VBD/VidaRica/Ar15plus is continuing to sell "80%" lowers with the FCG pocket partially (mostly) machined is a bit of a riddle at this point.
FJKernel is absolutely correct; current BATF Determination Letters have all stated that any work done to the FCG area makes a lump of metal a firearm (which is silly, but that's where they're choosing to draw the line THIS year/season/month/week). Having a completely milled FCG pocket WAS acceptable not long ago as long as enough other parts were left undone, such as the buffer tower, etc.
Somehow or other the vendor in question is continuing to sell a product that BATF has declared is a firearm, as if it is not one. Either they have some sort of grandfather clause/variance that makes this OK, or they are just getting away with it for the time being. I don't know which.
Could this potentially cause problems for buyers of this product? I don't know the answer to that either. But suffice to say that the legality of this product is MUCH muddier than that of etsablished, BTAF-sanctioned "80%" products (such as those sold buy yellowlogic, audibk, etc.).
YMMV.

ETA: the fact is that once you finish it (or do some work on it) it will be hard to tell how much was done when you got it vs. what you did. but if you worry about the legality of the transaction, and who might be watching/tracking such things, then this is all worth paying attention to.

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 10:58 PM
I'm not planning on selling my 80%. Does that mean what I purchased is okay? If not then why the f is this company selling them off to unsuspecting joes?

As far as the letter, I'd prefer seeing the actual law. Should I send a letter everytime I need to purchase something? Seems to me like this info should be in the penal code somewhere. I should probably contact my lawyer now.

No, I'm not referring to you selling but the people/company/website you got it from. Depending on your state/local laws, if you can do a person to person sale, it's cool. But from a re-seller or distributor, etc, that's the problem.

How can they get away with it? Good question. I'm relaying to you and anyone else reading this what I was told directly by the BATFE in March of this year. Upon deep searching, I found that ruling had been in effect from at least October 2008 and what looked like earlier than that. My part and letter are very specific... AR-15 and AR-15 type receivers.

These lowers with the FCG pockets milled out are on 2 or 3 web sites and gunbroker.com also. I'm sure gunbroker would crap bricks to know that they were enabling. I've also seen lowers that were milled narrow and had the holes pre-drilled.

Want to CYA? Well, if it's an (above 50%) XX% "partially completed receiver" that would, if completed require a serial number, ask for a recent determination letter (they are dated and numbered) or it's document numbers or send a sample in for determination. What may have been legit years ago is clearly not now.

ro442173
05-23-2009, 11:03 PM
Got it. Thank you guys for the input and just to be on the safe side, I'm contacting VR tomorrow. I'm asking for a refund/return just to be on the safe side... CYA as you said.

Atleast these postings can work as an alibi in the possible future, maybe?

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 11:11 PM
"I saw nothing NOTHING!"

I don't know what to tell you. I'd ask them (the sellers) for a determination letter. If they can't/don't give you at least a number, a current number like 903050:MMK-3311/2009-123 (/year-letter number) to CYA then I would rather error on the side of caution.

yock
05-23-2009, 11:41 PM
FYI- ATF determined a year (or more) ago that any 80% lower that had ANY work to the fire control pocket done or the fire control components pin holes drilled, marked, etc are fire arms.

Some of those out there have "narrow" pockets partially opened... yup, you guessed it. ATF says firearm....

"To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)."

so does this mean that the lowers that need the fire control pocket are good to go until I mill it out? Than I have to register it? :confused:

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 11:48 PM
Hello.

No fire control pocket are the currently approved versions (and no FCG holes).

Depending on where you live, in most places you do not need to serialize or register a rifle. For me here in Michigan, I can make a rifle or pistol but must serialize and register the pistol once completed. Michigan law.

Check your local/state laws and here's a good resource: homegunsmith.com (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=98&t=17698)

goober
05-23-2009, 11:49 PM
so does this mean that the lowers that need the fire control pocket are good to go until I mill it out? Than I have to register it? :confused:
here in CA (and under fed law) you don't have to register a home-built firearm unless it falls under NFA regs.
you can build an AR15 lower out of a block of aluminum or a 10% or 80% or "over 80%" lower and there is no requirement to register it even after it is done.

ENTHUSIAST
05-23-2009, 11:53 PM
here in CA (and under fed law) you don't have to register a home-built firearm unless it falls under NFA regs.
you can build an AR15 lower out of a block of aluminum or a 10% or 80% or "over 80%" lower and there is no requirement to register it even after it is done.

Does this apply to AR pistol home-builds as well?

After completing a AR pistol home-built nothing needs to be reg'd or reported to anyone is this correct?

yock
05-23-2009, 11:58 PM
Ok, with all the legal mumbo jumbo you guys started talking about got me worried :eek: but that all makes sense now that I read it again. :wacko:

goober
05-24-2009, 12:03 AM
Does this apply to AR pistol home-builds as well?

After completing a AR pistol home-built nothing needs to be reg'd or reported to anyone is this correct?

for a home build pistol registration is not required either, but some folks say it's a good idea just to be extra safe. but not technically needed.

yock
05-24-2009, 12:09 AM
No worries the guy was talking like if I got "a few" he could knock the price down a little bit and if I needed "more than a few" he could definitly go even lower.

I talked to a few (6 or 7) friends & all were interested but not all of them will be able to until early/mid July time, if that's ok. :jump:

ENTHUSIAST
05-24-2009, 12:21 AM
I talked to a few (6 or 7) friends & all were interested but not all of them will be able to until early/mid July time, if that's ok. :jump:

No worries w/ all the legal Mumbo Jumbo I dunno if I wanna even hassle with it... it sounds like a little more research is in order before I even think about organizing a group buy... I am also waiting on the ATF to give their "blessings" on the SoCal 80% build... I am gonna wait til after that to figure out the status...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2525314#post2525314

ENTHUSIAST
05-24-2009, 12:22 AM
for a home build pistol registration is not required either, but some folks say it's a good idea just to be extra safe. but not technically needed.

Thanks goober that is what I thought.

yock
05-24-2009, 12:33 AM
No worries w/ all the legal Mumbo Jumbo I dunno if I wanna even hassle with it... it sounds like a little more research is in order before I even think about organizing a group buy... I am also waiting on the ATF to give their "blessings" on the SoCal 80% build... I am gonna wait til after that to figure out the status...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2525314#post2525314

Good idea I will keep an eye out for the group buy if it all pans out. are the lowers you can get milled out in the trigger area?

ENTHUSIAST
05-24-2009, 12:35 AM
Good idea I will keep an eye out for the group buy if it all pans out. are the lowers you can get milled out in the trigger area?

Nope. But I an concered about which "holes" are OK and which holes would make it NOT OK does anyone have pics of what holes are good/bad?

yock
05-24-2009, 12:47 AM
Nope. But I an concered about which "holes" are OK and which holes would make it NOT OK does anyone have pics of what holes are good/bad?

i was looking at http://www.yellowlogic.net/marine-electronics/product/15ALT080.html and they have references to the laws saying they are compliant to: :thumbsup:

Machined in compliance with recent determination 903050:MMK-3311/2008-680, "Generally, if the receiver-blank can not accept a barrel and the fire-control components can not be installed (or it can not easily be modified to accept such components), it is not a firearm." And determinations 903050:MMK-3311/2009-323 and /2009-467, "To rule out any misconceptions, we reiterate that an AR-15 type receiver-blank having any fire-control pivot pin holes or indexed, or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)."

Josh3239
05-24-2009, 1:11 AM
I don't know if it matters, but Vida Rica's lower's FCG cavity is not complete. Like the buffer tube area, it does need an extra work so you cannot just pop in a takedown pin and the FCG. I would imagine that is how his are ok.

ro442173
05-24-2009, 1:36 AM
I don't know if it matters, but Vida Rica's lower's FCG cavity is not complete. Like the buffer tube area, it does need an extra work so you cannot just pop in a takedown pin and the FCG. I would imagine that is how his are ok.

"...or any portion of the fire-control cavity milled in any way will be classified as a firearm pursuant..."

yock
05-24-2009, 2:03 AM
So is this ok?
http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/yockeyj/AR15Jig80LowerReceiverTutorial_3168.jpg

FJKernel
05-24-2009, 7:59 AM
So is this ok?
http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww78/yockeyj/AR15Jig80LowerReceiverTutorial_3168.jpg

My understanding, which was clarified in a print out of an image included by BATFE was that the rear area that the upper's lug goes into is ok but that between there and the bolt hold open <nothing>. For mine, I don't include the rear lug area as I want to stay out of any grey areas...

If they are saying no marks, starter holes, dimples, etc, and a hole is a hole or machining going on, well... look at the picture and tell me what you think.

What's funny about that brand of lower is there is absolutely no purpose for that hole. Zero. Why include it.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-24-2009, 11:35 AM
What's funny about that brand of lower is there is absolutely no purpose for that hole. Zero. Why include it.

Index point or fixture locator for machining purposes most likely.

FJKernel
05-24-2009, 12:34 PM
Yes, I understand that but if you're not supposed to, there's plenty of other places to mount/secure/locate from.

If you check out any of the prints for the lower receivers, they all use the front pivot pin center as the reference point, not dead center of the forbidden FCG pocket.

yock
05-24-2009, 4:59 PM
My understanding, which was clarified in a print out of an image included by BATFE was that the rear area that the upper's lug goes into is ok but that between there and the bolt hold open <nothing>. For mine, I don't include the rear lug area as I want to stay out of any grey areas...

If they are saying no marks, starter holes, dimples, etc, and a hole is a hole or machining going on, well... look at the picture and tell me what you think.

What's funny about that brand of lower is there is absolutely no purpose for that hole. Zero. Why include it.

I didn't even notice that till it was pointed out. It was late when I posted the pic.

goober
05-24-2009, 6:15 PM
I didn't even notice that till it was pointed out. It was late when I posted the pic.
that hole is of no consequence. kevin (the maker/seller of that 80% forging) has an ATF declaration letter for his design. it is a non-gun.

AirflowPimp
05-24-2009, 10:25 PM
I didn't even notice that till it was pointed out. It was late when I posted the pic.

Don't lie, you were just too busy looking at bOobies in another window.

yock
05-25-2009, 3:51 PM
Don't lie, you were just too busy looking at bOobies in another window.

ssssssshhhhhhhhh! don't tell people!!! :stupid:

VaderSpade
06-05-2009, 9:11 AM
There is a lot of talk on this thread about "recent determination letters".

Is recent determination LAW???

Lets not forget all The FUD spread by both ATF, & DOJ. I read (in a calguns thread) they had interruption (spin) posted on their website as law. After it was challenged it was taken off the site. These people do not make the laws.

That being said I don't want to be the one spending my time and money in court fighting determination, which may be right.

In the end I believe this is the sellers problem, no one should need to send anything back.

In fact shipping a firearm may land you in more trouble than just keeping it.

None of this should lead anyone to think I actually know what I’m talking about, I’m just posing questions!

goober
06-05-2009, 10:08 AM
There is a lot of talk on this thread about "recent determination letters".

Is recent determination LAW???

Lets not forget all The FUD spread by both ATF, & DOJ. I read (in a calguns thread) they had interruption (spin) posted on their website as law. After it was challenged it was taken off the site. These people do not make the laws.

That being said I don't want to be the one spending my time and money in court fighting determination, which may be right.

In the end I believe this is the sellers problem, no one should need to send anything back.

In fact shipping a firearm may land you in more trouble than just keeping it.

None of this should lead anyone to think I actually know what I’m talking about, I’m just posing questions!

i'm no lawyer neither, (nor did i stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night ;) ) but i think you're correct in that the need for a declaration letter is really on the SELLER's end; if you're selling "paperweights" then it definitely behooves you to get something in writing that confirms that your product is a non-gun and thus not subject to any of the usual FFL requirements for sales and transfer and such. knowing the fickle nature of BATF and their proven reluctance to play fair by actually publishing some standards that we can all stick to, i wouldn't think of selling something even close to being a firearm w/o some documentation that BATF had signed off on it (at least at some point... as we have seen, they can and do change their "standards" whenever they want :mad: ).
as for the buyer, i suppose that technically one could be charged with something for buying a supposed non-gun that was in fact over the line (if a vendor was to get popped or in a sting-type operation), but to my knowledge that has never happened. it doesn't hurt to be careful, and try to make sure that the seller has a declaration letter, but perhaps sometimes folks err on the side of FUD rather than take chances (real or imagined).

VaderSpade
06-10-2009, 9:09 PM
WARNING

Kevin has taken me for a ride. I ordered two of his 80% lowers back in April. They came out of spec, and Kevin admitted they were not right, and told me to return them for replacements. Weeks later he said he forgot them and would ship that week. That week passed and nothing. When I again ask, he became insulting and told me he would send my money back. 10 days after that promise I have received NOTHING.

This guy is a flake. I plan to post all the correspondence, with pictures if I don’t get my money back NOW.

BEWARE

http://www.cncguns.com/forum/index.php?topic=1180.0

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=25&t=599127&page=1

FJKernel
06-10-2009, 9:12 PM
~edit~

Wow. Ah... yeah...

speechless

goober
06-10-2009, 10:16 PM
VaderSpade, I hope Kevin makes good on your transaction. He has always been a stand up guy and fair businessman in the past. Hopefully it's just the frenzy and rush that have made his standards slip a bit. Not that those are excuses, but it has been crazy lately.
I know you have been trying for some time to get this resolved. It should have been taken care of weeks ago.
I really do hope Kevin does the right thing on this. I recommend his products to a lot of people on several forums and in person, and would like to continue doing so.

VaderSpade
06-10-2009, 11:31 PM
Kevin just contacted me, and told me he would get this taken care of.

I’ll let you know.

FJKernel
07-08-2009, 12:11 PM
I've been asked via IM a few times (including this AM) if I could clarify my comments. So if a picture is worth a thousand words.... Please note that the arrows on the side point to 3 (three) fire control components holes and the statement on the top states MUST BE SOLID.

This image is not the complete answer back to me from the BATFE. Some of that I consider proprietary info and likewise choose not to display the entire letter.

I hope this helps answer some questions.

http://www.yellowlogic.net/mm5/graphics/00000001/ar/abbr_ATF_pic.jpg