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joshuab
05-22-2009, 7:07 PM
I am thinking about buying an SA58 FAL (http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-Standard-Rifle-308-Cal/productinfo/SA58STDCAL/). This would by my MBR if/when TSHTF.

Can a "bullet button" style device be used on the FAL?
What upgrades would you recommend?

Comparison with the AR-10? Reliability? Accuracy?

Any opinions on this rifle would be appreciated.

jdberger
05-22-2009, 7:25 PM
Yes. Someone makes a BB. Maybe thedrickel.

Railed topcovers are nice if you like optics.

Uber-reliable (google Ole Dirty).

Not as accurate as the AR-10

I like them.

Thunderbird
05-22-2009, 8:07 PM
You could start an argument with this thread :)

In spite of being less accurate, I prefer the FAL. More reliable and tougher.

The AR-10 is really easy to customize though.

Also consider an M1A, you can get one legal that can still have a detachable mag.

All are great rifles in their own right, you just have to decide what means most to you.

Jason762
05-22-2009, 8:51 PM
For bullet buttons see TheDrickel or JJPerl (I might've spelled that wrong).

Upgrades? I'd highly reccomend a para folding stock and an 18" barrel with a 2" flash hider. You're probably going to want to conceal your firearm in a SHTF situation. You are not going to be walking around with your weapon strapped to your chest rig.

Also, get the picatinny rail and an Aimpoint Micro T1 red dot sight if you can afford it. You'll also need a front sight adjusting tool weather or not you use a RDS.

Can't compare to the AR-10, never shot it. Accurancy is mediocre (I shoot a 16" Para) about 3 MOA groups but reliability is good need proof? Check out The Tale of Ol' Dirty (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486) or Do I need to clean my FAL after only 5000 rounds? (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91574&pagenumber=1) (sorry but you have to be a registered member to view. It's worth the time to register).

I love my FAL. It was pricey at $1500 but I don't regret my purchase at all.

motorhead
05-22-2009, 9:06 PM
i so want one. can't fit it into the budget right now though.

scoob_i_e
05-22-2009, 10:02 PM
Also interested in an DSA FAL.

Is the STG58 (with the exception of the receiver) comprised of used or new Austrian parts?

Is there any difference between the SA58 and the STG58? (Besides the Austrian parts?)

Also, I still have no idea what the difference is between a metric or inch receiver.

Nor do I know the difference between the Type I Type II or Type III receiver?

One more question; does the carry handle cut or the bipod cut reduce the strength of the steel in any way?

Sorry if I hijacked this thread I just figured it'd be better to throw these questions in here rather than create an entirely separate post.

C.G.
05-23-2009, 12:04 AM
Also interested in an DSA FAL.

Is the STG58 (with the exception of the receiver) comprised of used or new Austrian parts?

Is there any difference between the SA58 and the STG58? (Besides the Austrian parts?)

Also, I still have no idea what the difference is between a metric or inch receiver.

Nor do I know the difference between the Type I Type II or Type III receiver?

One more question; does the carry handle cut or the bipod cut reduce the strength of the steel in any way?

Sorry if I hijacked this thread I just figured it'd be better to throw these questions in here rather than create an entirely separate post.

STG58 is made of used Austrian parts. SA58 has all new parts made in US.

DSA does not sell Type III receivers as far as I know but haven't checked their site lately. Type I is lightest but had problems with cracks under full auto, type II is slightly heavier, type III is heaviest mostly made in Brazil initially under license, but then the license lapsed. STGs were built on type I and II, but bottom line is that the difference is mostly cosmetic.

Some people say that the carry handle makes the FAL less accurate, but I have not seen any concrete data backing that claim.

If you want to know more in depth or see the differences in receivers go to:
http://www.falfiles.com

B Strong
05-23-2009, 5:00 AM
SHTF - M1A, Ca. configured, use your previously owned high-caps.

AR10, all the same bubbatac gear avalable as it's little brother, high accuracy potential. featureless, mag avalability a problem, depending on platform.

FAL, better ergos than the M1A, but not as nice as the 10. Everyone has a ton of mags from the old days. Featureless is a little more of a problem than the 10.

I'd go with the M1A, FAL's are great but you have to jump hurdles for a featureless build.

B Strong
05-23-2009, 5:08 AM
STG58 is made of used Austrian parts. SA58 has all new parts made in US.

DSA does not sell Type III receivers as far as I know but haven't checked their site lately. Type I is lightest but had problems with cracks under full auto, type II is slightly heavier, type III is heaviest mostly made in Brazil initially under license, but then the license lapsed. STGs were built on type I and II, but bottom line is that the difference is mostly cosmetic.

Some people say that the carry handle makes the FAL less accurate, but I have not seen any concrete data backing that claim.

If you want to know more in depth or see the differences in receivers go to:
http://www.falfiles.com

Most of the stories about FAL receiver failures involve the Canadian military versions built under license that used a cast receiver, flame cut on a pantograph machine.

I have a friend that lives in a free state that owns a transferable FAL that was converted from a semi-auto G series model, type 1 receiver cuts.

It has God only knows how many rounds down the tube (several trips to Knob Creek back in the 80's) and has no problems. I myself have put several thousand rounds through it when I visit.

Material and manufacturing technique make all the difference in the world.

Rambo, John J.
05-23-2009, 9:12 AM
I've put 2 FAL's together at Entreprise Arms with Imbel Type 3 receivers, one with an Austrian Stg58 parts kit.

They are reliable. Great battle rifles. When the barrel heats up though, accuracy appears to drop.

I think that they AR-10 is gonna be more accurate and it has a more stable platform for optics with it's upper receiver design. You'll have to research whether direct gas is more reliable than piston though. There's gonna be a lot of firefights on this one so you'll want to put your helmet on for this one.

My friend who has an AR-10 type rifle says that it recoiled a lot more than he expected. The recoil is not like your AR-15. I suppose that a heavier buffer would help here. The FAL has an adjustable gas system so you can mitigate some of this but make sure it cycles properly not at the expense of reliability.

As far as a bullet button, I have the mag release drilled through with a set screw so that the mag cannot be removed unless a wrench is used. I have a stripper clip receiver cover with picatinny rail so that I can top load like an SKS or M14.

scoob_i_e
05-23-2009, 9:20 AM
I'm not the OP but thanks to those for answering my questions. I truly appreciate it.

4 Brigada
05-23-2009, 9:22 AM
Here are the uppers, there are 3 types for the lowers as well.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t155/4brigada/3_FAL-1.jpg

joe_sun
05-23-2009, 9:26 AM
Let me add in my 2 cents and another contender.

I own an Imbel FAL built on a DSA upper using a DSA FCG. I've always been somewhat Meh with it. I think the main reason is I can't stand the sights on it. To me the rear sight is too close to your face and the front sight post is too short. It didn't help that the trigger was horrible but after a trip to Bill Springfield that has been corrected.

Not that long ago I bought a PTR-91 and it was "where have you been all my life baby" from the second I held it in my hands. Now mind you, the AR is still the king of ergonomics in my book but for a 308 I'm loving the way the HK clone feels. Now I've not shot this rifle yet, I'm headed to the range today, and I hear these rifles have more recoil than than the FAL.

One thing I love about the AR-10 is how easy it is to mount a scope to them. the rail covers are the FAL, I have one, just screw onto the receiver and the HK clones you're pretty much stuck with using the HK claw mount.

If I didn't already have two 308 "battle rifles" I'd consider getting a 308 but until the ammo comes down in price I can't justify it and I've been fighting the urge to sell my FAL.

4 Brigada
05-23-2009, 9:39 AM
the front sight post is too short.

Where you not able to zero? There are FAL front sight post with different heights. As well as the rear sight heights, original M1 FAL's, T-48, Argie and Israeli have a taller rear sights.

Thunderbird
05-23-2009, 9:42 AM
joe, that's funny because I had a PTR and didn't care for it. Looks cool, feels cool, but not a fun shooter for me. Keep in mind that it was a collapsable stock and it was too short for me, even extended. Could have easily picked up an old stock. (parts are cheap so that's good) Anyways, I opted for the FAL.

NSR500
05-23-2009, 10:52 AM
SHTF - M1A, Ca. configured, use your previously owned high-caps.

AR10, all the same bubbatac gear avalable as it's little brother, high accuracy potential. featureless, mag avalability a problem, depending on platform.

FAL, better ergos than the M1A, but not as nice as the 10. Everyone has a ton of mags from the old days. Featureless is a little more of a problem than the 10.

I'd go with the M1A, FAL's are great but you have to jump hurdles for a featureless build.

When the SHTF I don't thing many will care to be California compliant... I'm just sayin... :TFH:

joe_sun
05-23-2009, 1:30 PM
Where you not able to zero? There are FAL front sight post with different heights. As well as the rear sight heights, original M1 FAL's, T-48, Argie and Israeli have a taller rear sights.

No I'm sorry. I should have written it seems too short for me. When I first got my FAL I honestly thought the front sight post had been broken in half because of how short it is. It's just awkward for me that's all.

joe, that's funny because I had a PTR and didn't care for it. Looks cool, feels cool, but not a fun shooter for me. Keep in mind that it was a collapsable stock and it was too short for me, even extended. Could have easily picked up an old stock. (parts are cheap so that's good) Anyways, I opted for the FAL.

T-bird, I've often heard this. A LOT of people either love one or the other but few enjoy both. On the other hand I've yet to meet a person that actually likes the collapsible stock. Yeah they look cool but they aren't comfortable at all.

I just got back from the range. I took my AR and my PTR-91. Yeah I love it. That PTR-91 is a sweet rifle. I'm pretty sure it kicks more than my FAL but it's been a while since I've taken the FAL out. Maybe next time I'll take both the PTR and the FAL out at the same time.

B Strong
05-23-2009, 2:22 PM
When the SHTF I don't thing many will care to be California compliant... I'm just sayin... :TFH:


You're right, but I hope they do a little training and practice before that happens - and the rifles they train with better be legally configured.

GM4spd
05-23-2009, 2:32 PM
Get an Entreprise FAL---(support your LOCALS)--I have owned them
all, Springfield Armory SAR-48,DSA,and Entreprise---if you have to pay more for the DSA you are wasting your money. Pete


http://www.fototime.com/4DC70D3EE16C0EB/standard.jpg

tophatjones
05-23-2009, 3:45 PM
I'm in the process of building one. British kit on DSA type 1. I just had to have a forged receiver. No one seems to be building kits anymore? It is almost as easy to build as an AR. Everyone should be building their own for 6-800 instead of paying 12-1500 for one. Damn you large companies who've bought up all the parts kits.

FJKernel
05-23-2009, 9:08 PM
Just to throw my $.02 into the mix... Like joe_sun...

In '86, I got an HK 91 and liked it but accessories, mags, etc were pricey and occasionally hard to find. I got it new and it was clearly German... wanted to be clean, a little over-engineered and was finicky about ammo. Right ammo and it was quite a shooter.

One year before I got the 91, I got a Belgian-made FN FAL. It was a standard model and got me hooked on 308 Winchester (which later led me to the 91). I was impressed with the accuracy the rife was capable of. While it would eat any ammo it was fed, with some time at the range you could adjust the gas regulator to match your ammo and get a super smooth action out of it. If you did that, you'd find that the accuracy out of it was wonderful and consistent.

When push came to shove, out of the gun safe the 91 went. I still have that old FN. Trying to estimate rounds through it, my best guess is somewhere near 3000 and you can not tell. In 24 years, it has only had one part problem, my flash hider loosened up during an extended rapid fire session and was eventually hit with a bullet and shattered in 7 or 8 pieces. But that was me not paying attention. This rifle has done what I wanted every other time for 24 years this month.

Recently, I've looked again at M1A's, new AR-10's and some of the "FN" FAL offerings.

The M1A was a better grade and shot quite well but options were an after thought. And that tactical stock thing offered now? Best I don't offer my opinion on that one.

The AR-10 didn't do it for me. What the AR-10 had going for it is options and accessories. Didn't shoot it, later went to the range with a buddy and his made it through almost one clip before extractor failure.

Some of the current "FAL" style offerings should not be offered. Left over Indian surplus, 2nd rate Canadian or Australian parts... Now, the new better quality parts or new surplus, some of those pieces are nice. I have seen 2 "builds" by different vendors I thought about buying. If I remember correctly, I think that one was an "Inch" model and the other I know was metric as it had an Israeli heavy barrel and metric gas regulator, etc on it.

When it all boils down, buy the best rifle you can afford and if you've done your homework, you should be happy. Unless you're never happy anyway. Better products almost always fit, wear and shoot better. And then there's resale value.

4 Brigada
05-24-2009, 11:10 AM
Some of the current "FAL" style offerings should not be offered. Left over Indian surplus, 2nd rate Canadian or Australian parts... Now, the new better quality parts or new surplus, some of those pieces are nice. I have seen 2 "builds" by different vendors I thought about buying. If I remember correctly, I think that one was an "Inch" model and the other I know was metric as it had an Israeli heavy barrel and metric gas regulator, etc on it.


By "vendors" you mean "BIMG with a pipe wrench that is being sold at a gun show"? Cause DSA builds and or Entreprise builds dont fall under that category. As for kit builds there is PRK will build an excellent "FAL" (FN banned by name) with your kit or sell you one. But kits like most things are GIGO. I have seen some great builds done by calgun members and I have seen and heard horror stories about others. I take the easy approach since Im lazy, I build my own kits with new parts, guess what never had a problem with about 9 that I built that way. Not cheap way to go , gets great results.

B Strong
05-24-2009, 12:08 PM
Get an Entreprise FAL---(support your LOCALS)--I have owned them
all, Springfield Armory SAR-48,DSA,and Entreprise---if you have to pay more for the DSA you are wasting your money. Pete


http://www.fototime.com/4DC70D3EE16C0EB/standard.jpg

Good looking incher.

-hanko
05-24-2009, 2:29 PM
Get an Entreprise FAL---(support your LOCALS)--I have owned them all, Springfield Armory SAR-48,DSA,and Entreprise---if you have to pay more for the DSA you are wasting your money. Pete
Maybe.;)

Read http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263035 (http://http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263035)

-hanko

Little Ike
05-24-2009, 9:11 PM
I'm thinking about putting together one with an Enterprise Arms receiver & a bullet button/fixed magazine. Enterprise is OLL, correct? I have an old UK kit to use. Any advice? I want ot make sure I'm ok in Ca.

Thanks

4 Brigada
05-25-2009, 5:27 PM
I'm thinking about putting together one with an Enterprise Arms receiver & a bullet button/fixed magazine. Enterprise is OLL, correct? I have an old UK kit to use. Any advice? I want ot make sure I'm ok in Ca.


Enterprise receivers are OLL so you are OK there.
10RND Fixed Magazine with Bullet Button OK and you can have all the "evil" features , pistol grip , flash hider the works. So you can use all the parts from your UK kit except for seven that are required for 922 compliance. You must replace seven parts with US made parts. If you go with the Enterprise reciever thats one, so you only need 6 more. Here is a list cause you just cant replace anyone that you want. Follow the instructions to see what you can replace.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildFalVerifyCompliance

falawful
05-25-2009, 7:44 PM
I don't believe you have to worry about 922 compliance if you are CA compliant.

CA compliant isn't evil and all that...

Little Ike
05-25-2009, 7:49 PM
Thanks! Very helpful.

Sicarius
05-26-2009, 7:25 AM
Yes you have to worry about 922 compliance. 922 is a federal regulation and CA laws are an extra dose of regulation on top of it.
Kevin

joe_sun
05-26-2009, 8:08 AM
I've heard a pretty convincing argument that 922r doesn't apply to a fixed magazine rifle because a firearm needs a detachable magazine to be considered non-sporting as per 922r.

I'm not saying it's true, only that i've heard a strong argument.

4 Brigada
05-26-2009, 8:13 AM
I've heard a pretty convincing argument that 922r doesn't apply to a fixed magazine rifle because a firearm needs a detachable magazine to be considered non-sporting as per 922r.


I'm sure a real good and expensive lawyer can argue that point in court (Good Luck). As for myself I rather spent the extra 100 bucks and not have to find out the hard way.

I don't believe you have to worry about 922 compliance if you are CA compliant.


Man ,I could have saved thousands of bucks on my FAL builds

rg_1111@yahoo.com
05-26-2009, 9:11 AM
I would go with the Fal. More Reliability.
The AR-10 has the Accuracy but not dependable.

C.G.
05-26-2009, 5:21 PM
I would go with the Fal. More Reliability.
The AR-10 has the Accuracy but not dependable.

Huh?:confused:
I have both and both have been dependable. The AR-10 will outshoot my FAL, however.

falawful
05-26-2009, 7:09 PM
Caution isn't necessarily a bad thing, but read the US code guys....

Jason762
05-26-2009, 7:24 PM
Huh?:confused:
I have both and both have been dependable. The AR-10 will outshoot my FAL, however.

Would it still outshoot the FAL at the 5,000 round mark without a thorough cleaning? Heck, would it shoot at all?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=769176

C.G.
05-26-2009, 9:21 PM
Would it still outshoot the FAL at the 5,000 round mark without a thorough cleaning? Heck, would it shoot at all?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=769176

Eventhough I am not anal about cleaning my guns, I don't let either one go that long without a cleaning, so I guess I will never know for sure. My guess is that it would, but bottom line I think this is a bit of a silly question since I don't know too many people that go 5,000 rounds without cleaning their gun.

And I know all about the "ole dirty".;)

Amacias805
05-26-2009, 11:02 PM
I'm in the process of building one. British kit on DSA type 1. I just had to have a forged receiver. No one seems to be building kits anymore? It is almost as easy to build as an AR. Everyone should be building their own for 6-800 instead of paying 12-1500 for one. Damn you large companies who've bought up all the parts kits.

What do you need to build it?

if someone can point me to a build guide that would be great..

also? 800 bucks seems pretty cheap? most of the parts kits run for 500-600? (at least the ones that i have seen)
where are you buying your stuff from?

B Strong
05-27-2009, 5:21 AM
What do you need to build it?

if someone can point me to a build guide that would be great..

also? 800 bucks seems pretty cheap? most of the parts kits run for 500-600? (at least the ones that i have seen)
where are you buying your stuff from?

AGI has a great video showing how to assemble a FAL.

GM4spd
05-27-2009, 5:22 AM
I don't believe you have to worry about 922 compliance if you are CA compliant.

CA compliant isn't evil and all that...

You must be 922 compliant--period-- don't make that mistake. For US parts compliance after the US rcvr, I have the following US parts--hammer,sear,trigger,gas piston,folding charge handle,and US marked mag floorplate(no brainer for a CA fixed mag rifle),you can also get a US made look alike L1A1 flashider, I wanted to keep the original Brit furniture because it fits me very well for offhand shooting,Pete

B Strong
05-27-2009, 5:23 AM
I've heard a pretty convincing argument that 922r doesn't apply to a fixed magazine rifle because a firearm needs a detachable magazine to be considered non-sporting as per 922r.

I'm not saying it's true, only that i've heard a strong argument.

SAorry Joe - any semi-auto rifle on the banned import list with any foreign manufactured parts has to be 922(r) compliant.

joe_sun
05-27-2009, 6:05 AM
SAorry Joe - any semi-auto rifle on the banned import list with any foreign manufactured parts has to be 922(r) compliant.

Actually that's not true. 922r doesn't deal at all with a "banned import list"

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

Guys look at what Century does, they buy Romanian AKs and ship them to the US. No 922r on those.. Why? because from the factory they make the magwell too small to fit a standard AK magazine. Once they get here they "open them up", add the US made parts and sell them.

I'm not saying one way or the other but if you look to see what's going on then it makes sense that a fixed magazine rifle could be considered "sporting" without US made parts.

And for the record I have compliance parts in all my builds since I didn't want to take the chance even thou my builder was the one who told me I didn't need them.

Sicarius
05-27-2009, 2:27 PM
Never thought of it that way.... Kind of risky but makes sense. Thank's for pointing that out... now to find somebody willing to test it.
As for a tutorial, the web, falfiles and gunplumber's video is super helpful. You will need at the very least to barrel the receiver a receiver vice ~60 bucks, a decent open end wrench that you don't mind widening a tad or a barrel vice(much suggested but about 150), and a 1/2 inch breaker bar(about 125 ft lbs of pressure on the barrel. Timing tools which you can probably make yourself with some steel rod and a 12/28 thread I think(to thread in the front sight post). A 3 foot level and a magnetic degree wheel. Other than that, a vice, set of punches the FAL stock tool. A hammer and a mallet, assorted screwdrivers and such... should finish it off.
As for price, 800 doesn't sound very close for just parts(no tools) these days... few years ago definately. You should figure at least 450 for just the receiver. A parts kit can cost you between 300(imbel)-who knows... STG(steyr) makes a danm nice kit which I would suggest personally. They run in the 450-500. Mind you that these kits are not refinished so refinishing is additional. I would suggest chatting with the people over at gunpartsguy.com. You can figure on at least 100 bucks for the compliance parts like stock, pistol grip, foregrip, muzzle attachment, HST, charging handle, mag floorplates, gas piston... in any particular flavor. My kit from GPG with the compliance parts was about 700... granted I opted for a bipod cut barrel and bipod, railed top cover and DNTC brake... It may be cheaper to buy new and not build. You may brake even with just the parts but when you include tools... unless you build more than one or bought the recievers 10 years ago for 200 bucks... it may not be worth it. If you do it for knowledge and for fun... by all means.
Kevin

Amacias805
05-27-2009, 6:39 PM
AGI has a great video showing how to assemble a FAL.
thanks!



As for price, 800 doesn't sound very close for just parts(no tools) these days... few years ago definately. You should figure at least 450 for just the receiver. A parts kit can cost you between 300(imbel)-who knows... STG(steyr) makes a danm nice kit which I would suggest personally. They run in the 450-500. Mind you that these kits are not refinished so refinishing is additional. I would suggest chatting with the people over at gunpartsguy.com. You can figure on at least 100 bucks for the compliance parts like stock, pistol grip, foregrip, muzzle attachment, HST, charging handle, mag floorplates, gas piston... in any particular flavor. My kit from GPG with the compliance parts was about 700... granted I opted for a bipod cut barrel and bipod, railed top cover and DNTC brake... It may be cheaper to buy new and not build. You may brake even with just the parts but when you include tools... unless you build more than one or bought the recievers 10 years ago for 200 bucks... it may not be worth it. If you do it for knowledge and for fun... by all means.
Kevin

thanks for all the advice... the pricing seems right, at least from what i've seen...