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sakeshouse
05-08-2005, 2:36 PM
Okay so i had my heart set on the socom 16, but read a couple articals where guys where saying they had some problems, overheating, front sights coming off. But the same artical said the scout, which is the 18 inch barrel was a good gun. Any suggestions or experiance? Or do i just go with so many of the suggestions i read on here and buy a pair of sks, just would like something with a detachable clip, easier to load. Opions?

sakeshouse
05-08-2005, 2:36 PM
Okay so i had my heart set on the socom 16, but read a couple articals where guys where saying they had some problems, overheating, front sights coming off. But the same artical said the scout, which is the 18 inch barrel was a good gun. Any suggestions or experiance? Or do i just go with so many of the suggestions i read on here and buy a pair of sks, just would like something with a detachable clip, easier to load. Opions?

RRangel
05-08-2005, 2:47 PM
The American Rifleman magazine loved it. They raved about the muzzle break working really well and keeping the recoil down according to them. The velocity loss isn't as bad as everyone thinks.
Somewhere around 200 fps but I loaned out my magazine so I don't have it handy.

Why would the SOCOM be any differently made than the 18 Scout Squad rifle. The only real difference is the front sight and barrel length.
Overheating?
The SOCOM should be as well made as any other Springfield Armory product. Springfield Armory has a good warranty. You can probably put the standard M14 front sights on it if it's that much of a problem.
If you want a magazine fed, short auto-loading .308 I'd take a SOCOM in a heart beat if price isn't a concern.

sakeshouse
05-08-2005, 4:00 PM
that was it exactly, said the extra two inches somehow magically cut down on barrel heat. also felt the action worked slightly better, unfortunattly i dont remember the reason on this one.it seemed that both articalswere writen by friends who had the same bad day, and didnt like the gun. I cant imagine they are using to different recievers.just wondering if this view was held by others who either owned or had fired this rifle. figure with the restrictions they have impossed here, this really is the closest to a "military" type defense rifle i can get. i mean if the military uses it (or similiar) than it should be good for me plinkering with. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

05-09-2005, 7:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Technical Ted:
$1,5000 M1A as a plinking gun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...

Does anyone know of a nice drilling/combo rifle chambered in .308 x 2 ???

That'd be a fine plinker too, I suppose.

6172crew
05-09-2005, 9:22 AM
I dont know about the SOCOM but my Scout is a great rifle, I sent her back to SA for FT Feed issue and they paid for shipping, and added a few USGI parts in cludding a OP-Rod, Trigger group and I also got a new handgaurd and the bolt was rebuilt.

Id say if ya want a Socom then go for it as SA will fix anything you dont like for free.

BigRich
05-09-2005, 9:22 AM
Couldn't find you one in 308 x 2. Here's one in 7x57 just in case. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BigRich
05-09-2005, 9:23 AM
http://www.learmes.com/Guns%20for%20sale.htm
Sorry about that.

jon.ocab@gmail.com
05-09-2005, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Or do i just go with so many of the suggestions i read on here and buy a pair of sks, just would like something with a detachable clip, easier to load. Opions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd get a Garand over an SKS.

As far as the Springfield Armory SOCOM, I'd like to see a review by some independent sources. I get the "American Rifleman" via the NRA, but the magazine is pretty biased since SA is a paying advertiser in the magazine.

leswift
05-09-2005, 10:24 AM
A 223 starts with 450 fps more velocity than a 308. So the 223 can stand to give up some velocity with a shorter barrel. the 308 cannot. Why lug around so much extra wt and bulk, do without a .22 unit for practice, be without the replaceable GI rd, and not have a lick of range advantage over the 223, and pay nearly 3x as much to be so limiteted?

Gisherwitz
05-09-2005, 10:39 AM
I have shot both the socom and the scout and have had no problems. They are both excellent rifles and you will be happy with either one. Sucks to have choices http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bwiese
05-09-2005, 11:00 AM
Haha...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Admin wrote:
The SOCOM should be as well made as any other Springfield Armory product. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's unfortunately true.

And I'd really really like to have a Scout.

As of about a year or so ago, S.A. stopped putting chrome-lined barrels on their base rifles. It's supposedly an accuracy issue (everyone without chromed bbls says that!), but really it's a price issue: chromed bore bbls cost $50-$75ish more at retail.

I spoke with SA reps at the SHOT Show and also SA factory reps visiting at Reed's Sports in SJ.
They both looked at me like I was insane when I said I wanted a chromed barrel, and couldn't offer a decent answer why they stopped using chromed bbls in their base model.

They think they're saving money by not chroming bores. I told 'em, "How much money are you saving when I won't buy another M1A from you?"

If I do a 'SOCOM'-like rifle, it'll be a parts gun - some SA, Fulton and LRB parts with a cut-down LRB Arms bbl. Won't cost much more than a regular SA SOCOM.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

05-09-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:

As of about a year or so ago, S.A. stopped putting chrome-lined barrels on their base rifles. It's supposedly an accuracy issue (everyone without chromed bbls says that!), but really it's a price issue: chromed bore bbls cost $50-$75ish more at retail.

I spoke with SA reps at the SHOT Show and also SA factory reps visiting at Reed's Sports in SJ.
They both looked at me like I was insane when I said I wanted a chromed barrel, and couldn't offer a decent answer why they stopped using chromed bbls in their base model.

They think they're saving money by not chroming bores. I told 'em, "How much money are you saving when I won't buy another M1A from you?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On a similar note, I read in one of the business sections of one of the local papers yesterday about how the plating industry was suffering it's woes because of strict OSHA and green laws of late (within the last decade or so).
I remember in particular the mention of chrome plating and the expense (somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 at minimum) for companies to have the proper vapor recovery systems for the process. Of course, the article cited shops that had closed up or were planning to do so or at the least were expected to discontinue chroming.
I'm not sure the process for lining barrels, but I suspect that the added expense is something real and since the bottom line is seemingly always profits, I'm not surprised that SA would go this route.

bwiese
05-09-2005, 2:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Basura Blanca:
...the plating industry was suffering it's woes because of strict OSHA and green laws of late (within the last decade or so).

I remember in particular the mention of chrome plating and the expense (somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 at minimum) for companies to have the proper vapor recovery systems for the process. Of course, the article cited shops that had closed up or were planning to do so or at the least were expected to discontinue chroming. I'm not sure the process for lining barrels, but I suspect that the added expense is something real and since the bottom line is seemingly always profits, I'm not surprised that SA would go this route. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well hard chrome lining of rifle bores is quite a bit different than chrome plating bumpers, car parts, etc. Though many chrome compounds & runoff/residue are likely to be considered 'heavy metal toxins'.

I am sure it's esp harsh on small aftermarket car shops and will put some of these customizers out of business (or have their chroming done out of state). Here in SF Bay Area, around 2+ years ago, some poor guy fell in the chroming vat. All sortsa OSHA, Cal OSHA, etc. violations - think that biz shut down.

Chrome lining is costly for rifle barrels not just due to process in & of itself but because if it's a tad off the barrel is ruined. You can't just run a reamer thru it again, etc.
From what I've heard, 25%-30% of chrome lined bbls are instant scrap upon inspection.

Since Springfield Armory's source of new USGI milspec TRW and H&R barrels has dried up they decided to go to a cheaper unlined bbl. Probably if this barrel were chrome lined the MSRP of the base model M1A would have had to have gone up $100ish and might price it out of range of some folks - and/or bring it too close to price of their more premium models with "match", "air gauged" barrels.

I'll live with SA's cast parts; I can always throw on the odd USGI part here & there. But a service rifle should always have a chromed chamber/bore at least, and they're failing on that one.

As I told one SA marketing droid, "Something's really wrong with your product when I have to dismantle it and replace a key part even before I use it."

{Response: &lt;blank_stare&gt;}

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Gisherwitz
05-09-2005, 2:47 PM
I'd hate to hijack this threat regarding the socom; but since it has been brough up, how would you know if your M1A is chrome lined or not?

bwiese
05-09-2005, 3:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gisherwitz:
how would you know if your M1A is chrome lined or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the chamber in decent light.

If chromed, it will have a dull finish that looks something like a worn nickel. (It will not look like shiny chrome on a bumper.)
If you can remove the muzzle device (flash hider, muzzle brake, etc.) you might see a slight bit of chrome showing at the flare of the barrel's crown.

By contrast, a relatively fresh nonchromed bbl will be dark/blued there (unless stainless).

Generally a chrome chamber implies a complete chromed bore. But some rifles like the Austrian STG58 FAL clone had chromed chambers but unlined barrels.

Springfield Armory, until maybe 2001-2, was using milspec chrome lined bbls from TRW and H&R in their base model rifles.

For those that don't know benefits of chrome lined barrels...

Barrels wear out more in the chamber and leade ("chamber erosion") far faster than the actual barrel portions do. Chrome lining helps reduce this erosion due to its hardness, yet also offers increased 'lubricity' (that is, how easy the bullet slides down the barrel) for bullet travel.

Chromed bores are far more corrosion resistant than plain steel and are much easier to clean as well.

Usually, a chromed barrel has a chamber with milspec dimensions that's not too tight -- so such a barrel usually does not suffer the problems feeding & extracting that some rifles with too-tight 'match' chambers do.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

-hanko
05-09-2005, 5:09 PM
Here in SF Bay Area, around 2+ years ago, some poor guy fell in the chroming vat.
If he were baked following the immersion, he'd avoid hydrogen embrittlement. Sorry, couldn't resist. I had excellent hard chrome jobs from a plater in San Carlos off Old County Road, he's probably out of business also.

I agree with the notion of a chrome lined barrel if you want to keep your gun authentic, given the fact that it can't be perfectly mil-spec without a selector. When your spending as much as SA wants for an M1A, I'd just as soon build a couple of FAL's, which would both be the equal of an entry to mid-level SA gun; or, spend a little more money for a Fulton/LRB/etc. gun with the chrome lined barrel & a GI parts set.

-hanko

sakeshouse
05-09-2005, 6:29 PM
Okay, so i am going to stray from the chrome for a second and go back to the original topic. Yes it is an expensive plinkering gun, as someone posted, but at the risk of sounding paranoid, i want to know that if it came down to it my plinkering gun would be quite capable of defending me.Since here in cali the ar15 with all the cool add ons isnt an option, plus i keep reading how the boys in Iraq are not getting satifactory results with their 223 rounds, the 308 socom seemed the way to go. Anyone got a better suggestion? i agree, the positive articals seem to be sa sponsered, the two bad articles where in the same mag that i also recall (i knew i should have saved it since i cant for the life of me remember where it was i was reading this) was bagging on the sa 1911, so like i said it semed these guys had a personal grudge against sa. thanks for all the opions, still open to more.

RRangel
05-09-2005, 7:26 PM
I have a couple of Springfield Armory products including an M1A NM and 1911 loaded.

I couldn't be more happier with them. What's wrong with a barrel that's not chrome lined? Well they don't last as long for one. But you know what? I want a SOCOM and when I shoot the barrel out I can replace it with a chrome lined one and rebuild it with other GI goodies like a GI bolt. Nothing will last forever.

If you go with a different M14/M1A builder like Fulton or LRB that use more GI parts you're going to spend at least $2000 or even more.

The legal FAL clones are neutered with non-removable ten round magazines and the sights aren't as good.

It's really up to you.

LRB has a Tanker M1A with an 18 1/2 inch barrel that may be readily available. They offer the option of a chrome lined barrel and it's only $30 more, go figure. LRB also uses a forged receiver. Fulton can build you one but it may take a long time. The LRB Tanker is also in the running for me but you thought the SOCOM was expensive.

esskay
05-09-2005, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
If I do a 'SOCOM'-like rifle, it'll be a parts gun - some SA, Fulton and LRB parts with a cut-down LRB Arms bbl. Won't cost much more than a regular SA SOCOM.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill, what do you mean by "cut-down" LRB barrel. Do you mean their 18.5" chrome-lined barrel? Or did you mean you intend to chop one of those down to 16"? My understanding was it was not a good idea to cut down a chromelined barrel?

TonyM
05-10-2005, 10:14 AM
is chrome lined the same as chrome-moly?

from the Springfield site on the Socom 16 page located here: http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-socom.shtml

"Barrel: 16.25", Twist: 1 turn in 11 inches, right hand, six-groove chrome-moly barrel"

-hanko
05-10-2005, 5:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by esskay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
If I do a 'SOCOM'-like rifle, it'll be a parts gun - some SA, Fulton and LRB parts with a cut-down LRB Arms bbl. Won't cost much more than a regular SA SOCOM.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill, what do you mean by "cut-down" LRB barrel. Do you mean their 18.5" chrome-lined barrel? Or did you mean you intend to chop one of those down to 16"? My understanding was it was not a good idea to cut down a chromelined barrel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good machinist + a good lathe + sharp carbide cutting tool = no problem with a chrome lined barrel, just a slow fee.

-hanko

-hanko
05-10-2005, 5:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tonym71:
is chrome lined the same as chrome-moly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No chrome lined is plated with hard chrome, chrome-moly has a small percentage of chromium alloyed in the steel.

-hanko

bwiese
05-10-2005, 5:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...what do you mean by "cut-down" LRB barrel. Do you mean their 18.5" chrome-lined barrel? Or did you mean you intend to chop one of those down to 16"? My understanding was it was not a good idea to cut down a chromelined barrel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'd have a knowledgable person cut the LRB barrel down to around 16.5+". I want that short, handy SOCOM profile - and the chrome lining http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

The muzzle brake will add some extra length to it and I wanna keep max rifle length down.

True, it's not great to cut a chromed bore: there's a small risk of chrome flaking off at the crown, which could ruin the bbl if not enough room to cut again. But some people do know how to do this.

Also the gas port would probably require tweaking ever so slightly for reduced bbl length ahead of muzzle.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

bwiese
05-10-2005, 5:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -hanko:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tonym71:
is chrome lined the same as chrome-moly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No chrome lined is plated with hard chrome, chrome-moly has a small percentage of chromium alloyed in the steel.
-hanko </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and some gun makers keep bandying about "chrome moly" term like it's something special. Often common in the AR15 world often when they're marketing guys are trying to make up for not offering chrome lined barrels.

Chrome moly is ordinary gun steel - 4140, 4150.

Steels have lots of other metals besides iron in them - chrome is one component.

It is completely different than chrome lining the bore.

Bill W
San Jose

TonyM
05-10-2005, 6:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -hanko:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tonym71:
is chrome lined the same as chrome-moly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No chrome lined is plated with hard chrome, chrome-moly has a small percentage of chromium alloyed in the steel.
-hanko </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and some gun makers keep bandying about "chrome moly" term like it's something special. Often common in the AR15 world often when they're marketing guys are trying to make up for not offering chrome lined barrels.

Chrome moly is ordinary gun steel - 4140, 4150.

Steels have lots of other metals besides iron in them - chrome is one component.

It is completely different than chrome lining the bore.

Bill W
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotcha.

Thanks guys.