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oaklander
05-21-2009, 11:06 AM
Mods, please move to appropriate forum. I posted here because many NEW users do not visit the 2A forum.

--------

As a Board Member of the CGF, I get the dubious pleasure of hearing about arrests and gun confiscations. Many of these do not make it onto the forum. There are not too many, but there are still enough that it is troubling to me.

While there have been no successful OLL prosecutions, I think that people should still exercise common sense with respect to their OLLs.

The arrests and confiscations are falling into a pattern.

1) A NEW gun owner does something to bring himself to the attention of LE.

2) LE either arrests the new gun owner, or takes his OLL and starts an investigation.

Here is some advice for new shooters:

1) DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE.

This isn't meant to be anti-LEO, but is simply common sense. Most police in the state do not even know what an OLL is. Don't ask them about OLLs, don't talk to them about OLLs. What is simply an OLL to you is an AW to them.

More experienced Calgunners, who have existing relationships with LE, should of course work to educate LE.

2) DO NOT DO THINGS TO BRING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF.

Again, this is common sense, and has been posted about ad nauseum. But I will repeat it. Do not drive around with a broken windshield, do not speed. Keep your car or truck clean. BWO has an excellent thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=80571) on this topic.

3) MAKE SURE YOUR OLL IS LEGAL.

Read the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). Understand it. Do not configure your rifle in a way that is illegal.

Again, these are all common sense, but I think that some new gun owners are so excited about getting their first OLL that they kind of lose sight of common sense.

djleisure
05-21-2009, 11:14 AM
Excellent advice and to your point of DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, I suggest if you (people reading this thread) haven't watched this video on YouTube (Don't Talk to Police) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc), take 45 minutes out of your life and watch it. NOW!

oaklander
05-21-2009, 11:19 AM
Yes, life is all about relationships and who you invite into your life. There's no reason to invite someone who has the power to arrest you!

Excellent advice and to your point of DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, I suggest if you (people reading this thread) haven't watched this video on YouTube (Don't Talk to Police) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc), take 45 minutes out of your life and watch it. NOW!

aermotor
05-21-2009, 12:00 PM
Great points as simple as they may seem.

I understand the excitement and wanting to rush right into it all, but take your time, and like I've said before, read, read read all that you can, this forum has so much knowledge on it, it's amazing. Buy your parts and keep reading while waiting for them to come in. In the DROS period, keep reading, understand the laws and WHY they are that way. Keep yourself protected. Print out the flow chart and other important defense documents and keep with your weapons at all times.

If there's one thing I learned when dealing with OLL is that it comes with a lot of responsibility, more than you would think at first.

ripcurlksm
05-21-2009, 12:42 PM
Also, print out and keep with you the Sacremento Police Memo on OLL's and the bullet button. See my signature #3 link, click the PDF link in the first post and print the pages numbered 96-98.

Gator Monroe
05-21-2009, 1:07 PM
One way to attract attention is to Drop mags rapidly and reinsert fresh ones rapidly with BB or usuial way if you have MM grip is it not ? (I would think slowing down process would be advisable even though you can legally do it quickly and you may think it's your right too )

supersonic
05-21-2009, 1:10 PM
VERY timely topic, Oak. In the last 9 months or so, the sheer numbers of new & seemingly young (18-25) CG members has been staggering. And so has the near daily posts of "I know 'X' is legal in Ca., but can't I get away with 'X' & 'Y' because of how unfair it is?" I'm personally worried that all the hard work that went into making OLL's available to us will have been in vain if people don't wise the f**k up & put themselves in check real quick.;)

supersonic
05-21-2009, 1:14 PM
One way to attract attention is to Drop mags rapidly and reinsert fresh ones rapidly with BB or usuial way if you have MM grip is it not ? (I would think slowing down process would be advisable even though you can legally do it quickly and you may think it's your right too )

I really can't see how 'slowing down' one's reloading techniques at the range has any merit whatsoever, as long as you are doing it legally with a legally-configured rifle. 'Speed,' or lack thereof, is a non-issue.

scotthmt
05-21-2009, 1:15 PM
A good amount is knowing your sh*t. I got stopped by a LEO who didn't much know about OLL so I edjucated him, showed that the mag wasn't detachable w/o a tool and the other rifle had no pistol grip. But your best bet is too KEEP A COPY OF THE FLOWCHART WITH YOU. Being edjucated will save you lots of headaches.

Gator Monroe
05-21-2009, 1:17 PM
I really can't see how 'slowing down' one's reloading techniques at the range has any merit whatsoever, as long as you are doing it legally with a legally-configured rifle. 'Speed,' or lack thereof, is a non-issue.

I'm sure the OP is refering to OLL users who were doing what they were legally able to do in some of the aforementioned cases ...

Nessal
05-21-2009, 1:31 PM
+1 on all mentioned topics. I think some people FAIL to realize how uneducated most LEO's are about OLLs. It's probably the gun show crowd that bought an AR-15 from a gun show WITHOUT doing anymore research about OLLs. Big mistake. And one more thing. If a cop pulled you over and SOME HOW found out that you had an OLL, given that he is ignorant, no amount of talking will do you any good. Just shut up and plead the fifth.

ENTHUSIAST
05-21-2009, 1:42 PM
From my personal experience I would also like to add:

Always carry a copy of the flow chart with you everytime your OLLs leave your house.

And carry a COPY of your DROS and/or a COPY of your 4473 page 3 is best and also page 1.

Also a COPY of any reciepts that shows your OLL was purchased in CA.

Keep all this paperwork in a folder inside your LOCKED gun case.

Also in a worst case senario keep ALL original copies of the above paperwork at a family member or friends house NOT where your OLLs are stored.


P.S. Never open your locked gun case EVEN if LEOs threaten to cut the locks off... ask me how I know... :rolleyes:

NEVER TALK TO THE COPS OR BORDER PATROL OR ANY OTHER LEO AGENCY FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN TO SAY I WONT MAKE ANY STATEMENTS UNTIL AFTER I HAVE SPOKEN WITH MY ATTORNEY!!!

ENTHUSIAST
05-21-2009, 1:53 PM
Good advice here:


I understand the excitement and wanting to rush right into it all, but take your time, and like I've said before, read, read read all that you can, this forum has so much knowledge on it, it's amazing. Buy your parts and keep reading while waiting for them to come in. In the DROS period, keep reading, understand the laws and WHY they are that way. Keep yourself protected. Print out the flow chart and other important defense documents and keep with your weapons at all times.

If there's one thing I learned when dealing with OLL is that it comes with a lot of responsibility, more than you would think at first.

ENTHUSIAST
05-21-2009, 1:56 PM
More sage advice:

+1 on all mentioned topics. I think some people FAIL to realize how uneducated most LEO's are about OLLs. It's probably the gun show crowd that bought an AR-15 from a gun show WITHOUT doing anymore research about OLLs. Big mistake. And one more thing. If a cop pulled you over and SOME HOW found out that you had an OLL, given that he is ignorant, no amount of talking will do you any good. Just shut up and plead the fifth.

ENTHUSIAST
05-21-2009, 2:01 PM
care to elaborate please?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163082

I was detained by BP for 3+ hours and NO I would NOT care to elaborate... other than you have no rights when the cameras and voice recorders are off and LEOs have you cuffed and they want to search your property even if they have NO Probable Cause they dont give a **** about your rights and they will trample them... just make sure that it isnt any easier for them. It also makes them look like ******** when they destroy your property w/ no PC only to have to let you go with an apology.

ripcurlksm
05-21-2009, 2:10 PM
I was detained by BP for 3+ hours and NO I would NOT care to elaborate

i see now. I asked more specifically on why to lock because I do not lock long arms, but do carry the CA OLL book (link #3 in my sig) with the laws, memos, and flowchart. I do not carry any of the paperwork, because I treat all my firearms the same (EDIT: the same as, if i dont carry my receipt for my shotgun or bolt action rifle, why should I on principle do the same for OLL... just for example). Reading your post, I wanted to know more about the locking, etc. friend.

ENTHUSIAST
05-21-2009, 2:20 PM
i see now. I asked more specifically on why to lock because I do not lock long arms, but do carry the CA OLL book (link #3 in my sig) with the laws, memos, and flowchart. I do not carry any of the paperwork, because I treat all my firearms the same. Reading your post, I wanted to know more about the locking, etc. friend.

EDIT: the same as, if i dont carry my receipt for my shotgun or bolt action rifle, why should I on principle do the same for OLL... just for example).

Should you have to do it? Heck NO, but after having everything but my anal cavity searched and being threatened w/ losing my gun rights, confiscation, court, felony conviction, prison etc. I wish I had Oak, Gene, Bill and Trutanich Michel in my Pelican Case too... just saying it is much different when your freedom depends on a guy who knows squat about guns in general and then looks at your OLL like it is make out if plutonium!!!

I keep ALL my long guns AND pistols LOCKED in my Pelican 1750 case (that is in my LOCKED car trunk).

I know that by law you are not required to lock up long guns while transporting.... however if you are stopped ANYTHING in "PLAIN VIEW" YES EVEN A BOX OF BULLETS can be twisted into PC to search your vehicle for loaded weapons.

Also even a MAG from an AR or AK OLL can make a LEO go crazy and tear your car apart looking for an AW.

Again this is ALL from a real life LEO detainment so I am VERY sure of how far they will go if they want to...

Just NEVER think that they are there to uphold the Constitution... IMHO they are merely revenue agents that will pervert and destroy the BOR given even the slightest chance and yes they think they have the seal of approval to do just that.

I am not speaking for all LEOs as I have let a CHP (also a Calgunner) shoot my OLL without ever even knowing he was a LEO and he was one of the coolest guys I ever met at the range (he let me shoot his Night Hawk) but consider most will HATE the fact that you can even own such a weapon and will do everything they can to try and take it from you.

We have won the OLL war but the battle still goes on.

Again this is all from first hand experience... PLEASE be safe out there brothers.

B Strong
05-21-2009, 4:40 PM
Should you have to do it? Heck NO, but after having everything but my anal cavity searched and being threatened w/ losing my gun rights, confiscation, court, felony conviction, prison etc. I wish I had Oak, Gene, Bill and Trutanich Michel in my Pelican Case too... just saying it is much different when your freedom depends on a guy who knows squat about guns in general and then looks at your OLL like it is make out if plutonium!!!

I keep ALL my long guns AND pistols LOCKED in my Pelican 1750 case (that is in my LOCKED car trunk).

I know that by law you are not required to lock up long guns while transporting.... however if you are stopped ANYTHING in "PLAIN VIEW" YES EVEN A BOX OF BULLETS can be twisted into PC to search your vehicle for loaded weapons.

Also even a MAG from an AR or AK OLL can make a LEO go crazy and tear your car apart looking for an AW.

Again this is ALL from a real life LEO detainment so I am VERY sure of how far they will go if they want to...

Just NEVER think that they are there to uphold the Constitution... IMHO they are merely revenue agents that will pervert and destroy the BOR given even the slightest chance and yes they think they have the seal of approval to do just that.

I am not speaking for all LEOs as I have let a CHP (also a Calgunner) shoot my OLL without ever even knowing he was a LEO and he was one of the coolest guys I ever met at the range (he let me shoot his Night Hawk) but consider most will HATE the fact that you can even own such a weapon and will do everything they can to take it from you.

We have won the OLL war but the battle still goes on.

Again this is all from first hand experience... PLEASE be safe out there brothers.

Many years back during a traffic stop an officer in Foster City Ca. observed a membership card to "Aimark" (Now Jackson Arms) and in the wallet of the driver when the driver produced his DL. The officer attempted to use that as the reason for first a consent search (denied by the driver) then for PC to search the vehicle - a supervisor was called to the scene and eventually the driver was released w/o a search, but you're correct.

A single round of ammo or a used target in plain view can get LE search juices flowing in the right (wrong) situation.

oaklander
05-21-2009, 9:22 PM
Yes, a good tactic to use is to think like the "grey man."

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2007/05/next-steps-grey-man.html

:)

Many years back during a traffic stop an officer in Foster City Ca. observed a membership card to "Aimark" (Now Jackson Arms) and in the wallet of the driver when the driver produced his DL. The officer attempted to use that as the reason for first a consent search (denied by the driver) then for PC to search the vehicle - a supervisor was called to the scene and eventually the driver was released w/o a search, but you're correct.

A single round of ammo or a used target in plain view can get LE search juices flowing in the right (wrong) situation.

oaklander
05-21-2009, 9:35 PM
Here's a graphic for those who think visually:

http://i44.tinypic.com/33w36o5.jpg

oaklander
05-22-2009, 12:10 AM
Since this is now a "sticky" -- let's keep it on topic so that mods don't have to clean it up.

Beatone
05-22-2009, 12:46 AM
Sound advise Oak.

scr83jp
05-22-2009, 7:51 AM
Mods, please move to appropriate forum. I posted here because many NEW users do not visit the 2A forum.

--------

As a Board Member of the CGF, I get the dubious pleasure of hearing about arrests and gun confiscations. Many of these do not make it onto the forum. There are not too many, but there are still enough that it is troubling to me.

While there have been no successful OLL prosecutions, I think that people should still exercise common sense with respect to their OLLs.

The arrests and confiscations are falling into a pattern.

1) A NEW gun owner does something to bring himself to the attention of LE.

2) LE either arrests the new gun owner, or takes his OLL and starts an investigation.

Here is some advice for new shooters:

1) DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE.

This isn't meant to be anti-LEO, but is simply common sense. Most police in the state do not even know what an OLL is. Don't ask them about OLLs, don't talk to them about OLLs. What is simply an OLL to you is an AW to them.

More experienced Calgunners, who have existing relationships with LE, should of course work to educate LE.

2) DO NOT DO THINGS TO BRING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF.

Again, this is common sense, and has been posted about ad nauseum. But I will repeat it. Do not drive around with a broken windshield, do not speed. Keep your car or truck clean. BWO has an excellent thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=80571) on this topic.

3) MAKE SURE YOUR OLL IS LEGAL.

Read the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). Understand it. Do not configure your rifle in a way that is illegal.

Again, these are all common sense, but I think that some new gun owners are so excited about getting their first OLL that they kind of lose sight of common sense. One thing I remember from 37 years as a court officer reading miranda warnings 5 days a week is that most cases would never have been solved if the perps had researched miranda and followed "you have the right to remain silent" to the letter.

Wild Squid
05-26-2009, 9:12 PM
First of all, this is a great thread. All 3 points OP made are excellent advice, but also should be viewed as common sense. But I think the one that most people fall prey to would be talking to the police. This does not mean to be uncooperative or to be a ***** towards the police. Its just that the officer who pulled you over or stops you has a job of firing off a series of incriminating questions. And I can't stress how important it is to train yourself on how to answer it without getting you car searched and seized. Cops do not care how much financial, emotional, material stress they cause a person when they falsely detain you for something that was perfectly legal in the first case. They'll just claim they're doing their job. This is where and why so many people hate cops and I don't understand why cops don't understand this phenomenon. If an officer searches someone's vehicle and finds a legally configured AR they suffer no consequences if they accuse the person of having a "Automatic Machine Gun Assault Weapon" that has a sole purpose of penetrating an officer's bullet proof vest. Said person then gets arrested and goes through hell trying to fight it out in court and spends upwards of $100K defending his freedom when he should never have had to. And the officer just says he's "doing his job". But let me be the first to say, that I am appreciative of knowing that if I had to call the police for an emergency, they will show up reasonably fast. Because THAT is their job. But I have conflicting feelings when I get bullied around by rogue cops. And even worse is when rogue cops are unfairly "protected" from prosecution in a court of law when sometimes so clearly break the law. It makes me sick.
So, if anyone feels any guilt of not talking to the cops when they are being interrogated during a traffic stop, don't be. Because they sure as hell wouldn't feel bad at all for ruining your life over a misunderstanding. You know why? Because that is their job.

SAN compnerd
05-28-2009, 2:26 PM
The link to the PDF for the OLL handbook is broken. Can someone fix this? I would really like to have a soft copy for my reference. Thanks.

domokun
05-28-2009, 7:26 PM
The link to the PDF for the OLL handbook is broken. Can someone fix this? I would really like to have a soft copy for my reference. Thanks.

Here's the related thread for that book:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1873783&postcount=1

scr83jp
06-11-2009, 1:32 PM
Wondering why my friends ask me all sort of weird question for their friend..I had that happen so many times so I told the person "the friend is you" & you're trying to get a twist on your probation or parole officer. I finally started telling everyone when they asked who I was employed by & what I did for a living that I was a "garbage collector" but I didn't tell them what kind of garbage I collected !

Seesm
06-15-2009, 11:56 PM
P.S. Never open your locked gun case EVEN if LEOs threaten to cut the locks off... ask me how I know... :rolleyes:

NEVER TALK TO THE COPS OR BORDER PATROL OR ANY OTHER LEO AGENCY FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN TO SAY I WONT MAKE ANY STATEMENTS UNTIL AFTER I HAVE SPOKEN WITH MY ATTORNEY!!!

Can't you get in trouble for NOT showing them what is locked behind door # "I mean in box #1" ? Scary.. Hope the Leos learn the laws even if they do not like them. :) Please Pm how you can NOT open the locked box and stay out of jail? (if your not comfy in doing this in open forum) Thanks!!

Once A Marine
06-16-2009, 12:53 AM
[/B]

Can't you get in trouble for NOT showing them what is locked behind door # "I mean in box #1" ? Scary.. Hope the Leos learn the laws even if they do not like them. :) Please Pm how you can NOT open the locked box and stay out of jail? (if your not comfy in doing this in open forum) Thanks!!

I would assume Fourth Ammendment rights.

gotshotgun?
06-20-2009, 1:24 PM
But the guy is right in regards to talking with police, it will never help you, they don't care what you have to say they only are doing what they are trained to do... find illegalities. A judge teaching one of my classes told us that it was AMAZING how many people will CONSENT to a search of their car when they have a load of cocaine or some other contraband in their car.... the number is staggering. People think if they are nice and friendly with the cop he will just say "well thanks so much for cooperating, have a nice day!" eeeehhhhh wrong, he'll still search you and think of you as a possible suspect until its over.


You sir, are a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

OliveDrab
06-20-2009, 2:11 PM
Can I ask a question regaurding the "don't talk to police"

let's say I'm driving home from the range and I have my OLL and ammo and targets in the back seat of my truck. OLL is in a case and ammo in a can. I get pulled over for not signaling.

The cop askes the following questions (I've been asked all of these before)

1. Where are you coming From

2. Do you have any guns knifes ect. In the car

3. Can I search your vehicle


What do I respond

gotshotgun?
06-20-2009, 2:25 PM
Hello, why have you pulled me over. I would prefer not to answer any of your questions.

At this point he'll get pissed and become suspicious and he may look for more violations. If he sees the gun case in the back he may search it based on a "reasonable suspicion" that you may be armed and dangerous. This search will be limited to a pat down from the outside of your clothing (a terry stop patdown) and he can look for weapons only. He could also search the passenger area (but not the trunk), he can search the glovebox. He need not have probable cause of a crime only a reasonable suspicion.

As far as can I search your vehicle, never say yes, there's no point, even if you are totally innocent why risk it. Remember the officer is looking hard for that bust, he wants it bad... especially if he's asking for a search.

COBRA MASTER
06-20-2009, 3:45 PM
I agree with you.
All le has to do is say you are acting in a suspicious manner and that was grounds to search your vehicle
whether you say yes or no. They can be creative and violate all your civil rights and get away with it. There job is to lock you up, the district attorney is the one who decides if they let you loose or make a case out of it.

But the guy is right in regards to talking with police, it will never help you, they don't care what you have to say they only are doing what they are trained to do... find illegalities. A judge teaching one of my classes told us that it was AMAZING how many people will CONSENT to a search of their car when they have a load of cocaine or some other contraband in their car.... the number is staggering. People think if they are nice and friendly with the cop he will just say "well thanks so much for cooperating, have a nice day!" eeeehhhhh wrong, he'll still search you and think of you as a possible suspect until its over.

ENTHUSIAST
06-22-2009, 5:41 AM
Can't you get in trouble for NOT showing them what is locked behind door # "I mean in box #1" ? Scary.. Hope the Leos learn the laws even if they do not like them. :) Please Pm how you can NOT open the locked box and stay out of jail? (if your not comfy in doing this in open forum) Thanks!!

Dude you dont have to do a freaking thing other than identify yourself and remain silent or... anything you say can and will be... well... you know the rest.

Think about it if they have PC they wouldnt be asking (especially like 20x) over and over... Also if they did have PC they wouldnt need your permission... dont "help them just do their job" when their job is to put people in jail specifically... YOU.


Basically (without lying to the officer) dont incriminate yourself and dont waive...
I would assume Fourth Ammendment rights.

ENTHUSIAST
06-22-2009, 5:58 AM
Can I ask a question regaurding the "don't talk to police"

let's say I'm driving home from the range and I have my OLL and ammo and targets in the back seat of my truck. OLL is in a case and ammo in a can. I get pulled over for not signaling.

The cop askes the following questions (I've been asked all of these before)

1. Where are you coming From
Am I being detained sir? If not I would like to be on my way. (Repeat as necessary.)
2. Do you have any guns knifes ect. In the car
Sir, there is nothing illegal in the car.
3. Can I search your vehicle
I do not consent to any searches and I would like to be on my way.
What do I respond

So when he asks anything I just plead the 5th?

NO save that for if you make it to court.

If the officer asks you for any information outside of the traffic stop or keeps pressing you just politely inform him you will not discuss anything outside the scope of the traffic violation without your attorney present.

Also check out the video series Pullnshoot made on dealing with LEO interactions *although it is about open carry it covers how to deal with LEOs that like to abuse the limits of their power:
1szBxnAEsMw&feature=PlayList&p=9CDFD99BEFA7E9CB&index=0&playnext=1

pullnshoot25
06-23-2009, 5:22 PM
NO save that for if you make it to court.

If the officer asks you for any information outside of the traffic stop or keeps pressing you just politely inform him you will not discuss anything outside the scope of the traffic violation without your attorney present.

Also check out the video series Pullnshoot made on dealing with LEO interactions *although it is about open carry it covers how to deal with LEOs that like to abuse the limits of their power:
1szBxnAEsMw&feature=PlayList&p=9CDFD99BEFA7E9CB&index=0&playnext=1

Hang tight guys, I will be making more videos soon on a variety of topics, including traffic stops.

7222 Hawker
07-18-2009, 3:16 PM
What brought this post about? I'd bet dollars to dimes my background is more extensive than yours and I'm only 24. I'd like to give you the behavior you apparently expect from my age group and tell you to GFY, but I'm not even going to bother. Sincerely: have a nice day. :confused:

Hmmm... lets look at this. Age 24 - yes its possible to have an "extensive" firearms background. However, I would say this would have to include:

1. Military Training
2. Law Enforcement Training
3. Both
4. A dad who gave a crap and took you to the range twice a month since you were 6.


In any of these cases, you wouldn't fit into the category of people GEO is talking about. So.... cool down kid.

7222 Hawker
07-18-2009, 3:18 PM
I didn't get that from his post. Seems to me, you have made an over statement.

Perhaps I did. My apologies.

7222 Hawker
07-18-2009, 3:21 PM
So when he asks anything I just plead the 5th?

Yes. Hand him your drivers license, registration, insurance and be polite. Don't say anything else and sign the ticket. Be on your merry way. ;)

Glockgunner
08-06-2009, 9:11 PM
So I had an interesting conversation with the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms and with a pretty knowledgeable representative from the Monterey County District Attorney's office regarding possession of an AW with a Bullet Button. Neither resource were willing to give a definitive answer regarding the Bullet Button. The DOJ BOF guy told me that the individual county DA makes the decision on accepting it as a “fixed” magazine. Although he did mention “tool use”. He warned me about a case where a guy traveled from a permitted county to a non-permitted county and was arrested. He got off, but not until spending a bunch of money on a defense attorney. Know before you go I guess is the lesson here. Anyway, the DA I talked to said they are not currently pursuing Bullet Button issues, but that there are officers in the county who are arresting for AR possession EVEN WITH THE BULLET BUTTON and 10 round mag, etc. They just had one in July 2009 in Seaside. He didn’t give me any further details on the case. I also found out that he is a firearms enthusiast and understood. Bottom line is that he said regulations could change “tomorrow” and that they would then prosecute. I find it really frustrating that the DA will not commit. He was equally frustrated with the DOJ BOF. Just a little story I wanted to share since I live in Monterey County and want to build an AR while avoiding and legal entanglement. This AR business is really quite challenging. Makes me want one even more!

oaklander
08-06-2009, 9:14 PM
AFAIK, there have been no successful prosecutions of OLL rifles that were configured correctly. The actual law would have to be rewritten for them to become illegal now.

So I had an interesting conversation with the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms and with a pretty knowledgeable representative from the Monterey County District Attorney's office regarding possession of an AW with a Bullet Button. Neither resource were willing to give a definitive answer regarding the Bullet Button. The DOJ BOF guy told me that the individual county DA makes the decision on accepting it as a “fixed” magazine. Although he did mention “tool use”. He warned me about a case where a guy traveled from a permitted county to a non-permitted county and was arrested. He got off, but not until spending a bunch of money on a defense attorney. Know before you go I guess is the lesson here. Anyway, the DA I talked to said they are not currently pursuing Bullet Button issues, but that there are officers in the county who are arresting for AR possession EVEN WITH THE BULLET BUTTON and 10 round mag, etc. They just had one in July 2009 in Seaside. He didn’t give me any further details on the case. I also found out that he is a firearms enthusiast and understood. Bottom line is that he said regulations could change “tomorrow” and that they would then prosecute. I find it really frustrating that the DA will not commit. He was equally frustrated with the DOJ BOF. Just a little story I wanted to share since I live in Monterey County and want to build an AR while avoiding and legal entanglement. This AR business is really quite challenging. Makes me want one even more!

emtnsocali
08-21-2009, 6:40 PM
one thing that i do is keep a copy of the law and the list of lowers on the ban list in each of my gun cases that contain anything even remotely suspect. got them off of coldwarshooters.net. i have LE buddies that have no clue what was legal to own.....another thing too, how about we stop putting these stupid *** 10/30 mags in to make it look like an assault rifle. that may help keep you out of trouble

GearHead
08-21-2009, 7:35 PM
one thing that i do is keep a copy of the law and the list of lowers on the ban list in each of my gun cases that contain anything even remotely suspect. got them off of coldwarshooters.net. i have LE buddies that have no clue what was legal to own.....another thing too, how about we stop putting these stupid *** 10/30 mags in to make it look like an assault rifle. that may help keep you out of trouble

10/30 mags are perfectly legal to own, I don't understand what the problem is. If a LEO gives you crap, kindly ask him to fit 11 rounds in the mag. It's simply an aesthetic modification.

emtnsocali
08-21-2009, 9:37 PM
10/30 mags are perfectly legal to own, I don't understand what the problem is. If a LEO gives you crap, kindly ask him to fit 11 rounds in the mag. It's simply an aesthetic modification.

i say it draws attention to you....whether its legal or not. going back to the part about dont talk to a LEO about your "long gun" your asking to have someone question you about that mag. just my opinion. and i agree i does look alot cooler to have a 30rd'r in there but i just assume not advertise

sac550
09-07-2009, 5:29 PM
So I had an interesting conversation with the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms and with a pretty knowledgeable representative from the Monterey County District Attorney's office regarding possession of an AW with a Bullet Button. Neither resource were willing to give a definitive answer regarding the Bullet Button. The DOJ BOF guy told me that the individual county DA makes the decision on accepting it as a “fixed” magazine. Although he did mention “tool use”. He warned me about a case where a guy traveled from a permitted county to a non-permitted county and was arrested. He got off, but not until spending a bunch of money on a defense attorney. Know before you go I guess is the lesson here. Anyway, the DA I talked to said they are not currently pursuing Bullet Button issues, but that there are officers in the county who are arresting for AR possession EVEN WITH THE BULLET BUTTON and 10 round mag, etc. They just had one in July 2009 in Seaside. He didn’t give me any further details on the case. I also found out that he is a firearms enthusiast and understood. Bottom line is that he said regulations could change “tomorrow” and that they would then prosecute. I find it really frustrating that the DA will not commit. He was equally frustrated with the DOJ BOF. Just a little story I wanted to share since I live in Monterey County and want to build an AR while avoiding and legal entanglement. This AR business is really quite challenging. Makes me want one even more!

The law on this issue is clear. I would sue if my OLL with BB was taken and/or I was arrested, and I would win. It is not a matter if if they will pay, but how much they will pay. I know some LEO/DA/DOJ people don't like the
BB, but the law is clear that they are legal.

If I lived in your county I would send the DA and the police a copy of the SPD BB training bulletin so they can understand the law.

tombinghamthegreat
09-07-2009, 5:40 PM
So I had an interesting conversation with the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms and with a pretty knowledgeable representative from the Monterey County District Attorney's office regarding possession of an AW with a Bullet Button. Neither resource were willing to give a definitive answer regarding the Bullet Button. The DOJ BOF guy told me that the individual county DA makes the decision on accepting it as a “fixed” magazine.

FUD. Most of the DA/DOJ if you ask enough questions shut down and tell you everything is illegal. Fix mag rifles/ featureless rifles with detachable mags are not really a legal issue, just might be scary to some. Even the DOJ will make BS claims like you can't drive around with loaded mags or have ammo next to the gun which is not true....

CowboyShooter
09-30-2009, 12:24 PM
Good thread... thanks for reminding us of "common sense". :D


On a related topic, staying out of "trouble"... how do you guys transport your OLL rifle? Is it better to have an empty mag "locked" into place or with the mag well empty?

Finally got my first EBR assembled! Just waiting on the 10/20s and BUIS to arrive.





:13:

diginit
10-03-2009, 5:37 PM
care to elaborate please?

Transporting
SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm: (1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment. (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container. (b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter. (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

oaklander
10-03-2009, 11:42 PM
If the magazine is "locked" with a bullet button - it's no longer a detachable magazine under the P.C.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

;)

Keep a Mag in the well at ALL times. If a LEO asks how you load it. Say that you pull the pin and topload with the mag still in the magwell. Keep mag in place while on a table in BLM etc. Most R.O.'s ask you to remove the mag during a cease fire. This is tecnically illegal in a fixed mag configuration. But it's a good idea to comply with the R.O.

hoffmang
10-04-2009, 10:01 PM
The magazine has to be IN the magwell in order to be locked in place.

Nope. "Detachable magazine" as it is used to define a rifle does not at all mean what you think it means. A rifle has a detachable magazine if a magazine can be removed from the rifle without the use of a tool. An empty magazine well is no different than a disassembled SKS without a detachable magazine. If you have a bullet button it doesn't matter at all whether the magazine is in the magazine well. We've proven that to at least one bay area DA and CGF stands ready to prove that to anyone else.

I'd suggest reading this: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Non_detachable_magazines

-Gene

oaklander
10-04-2009, 10:02 PM
Please do not believe the FUD.

The area is not gray. A bullet button locked mag, whether the mag is in or out of the magwell, simply does not meet the definition of detachable magazine under the penal code.

If this were the case, tens of thousands of SKS's would be illegal, since an SKS with a "detachable mag" is illegal in California.

There have been ZERO convictions for rifles properly configured in this manner.

EDIT: Gene beat me to it!

The magazine has to be IN the magwell in order to be locked in place. A removed mag in no longer locked. This was explained to me by a ranger and seems to make sense, Does it not? That 's why the Bushnell SEALED mag AR is the only plain english AR legal in Cal. and the reason some FFL's won't touch an OLL. The area is still grey.
The same ranger gave a fellow calgunner a break when his rifle was on the table with the mag removed, but warned the shooter that if he ever caught him again with the mag removed, He would be cited and the rifle confiscated. I tend to go with that.

bwiese
10-04-2009, 10:07 PM
The magazine has to be IN the magwell in
order to be locked in place. A removed mag in no longer locked.

Irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that a tool is required to unlock the magazine and that manual no-tool unlatching is not possible. Period.

[quote]This was explained to me by a ranger and seems to make sense,
Ignore ranger. He's basing comments on old information or misunderstanding.

It doesn't make sense if you read the definition of 'detachable magazine' in 11 CCR 5469(a) and drop that wording into PC 122761(a) definition of AW.

Does it not? That 's why the Bushnell SEALED mag AR is the oplain english AR legal in Cal. and the reason some FFL's won't touch an OLL.
It's Bushmaster. Bushnell makes scopes.

Bushmaster relied on DOJ approval which may well extend further than law. They're also an out of state company that doesn't understand CA law details & regulatory law.

The FFLs that don't touch OLLs are often old "FUD" FFLs that don't understand the law and/or are so worried about some other aspect of their past business they're treading on water.

Many tens of thousands of folks own open-magwell Bushmaster Carbon15 lowers used with BulletButton devices, too.

The area is still grey.No it isn't. The law requires a detachable magazine to not require a tool for use. Period.

The Calguns Foundation wins cases on these matters. Actually, we haven't won in the last several - they don't file charges and folks get their guns back when law is explained to them.

A BulletButton maglock'd 10rd magazine requires a tool for use and is thus not a semiauto rifle equipped with a a detachable magazine.


The same ranger gave a fellow calgunner a break when his rifle was on the table with the mag removed, but warned the shooter that if he ever caught him again with the mag removed, He would be cited and the rifle confiscated.

The Calguns Foundation is prepared send that ranger to reeducation if he persists in not getting up to speed.

There have to be around 200K OLL rifles using a BulletButton maglock device or variant thereof.

- DOJ agents walk by tables of such black rifles at gunshows now, and in the matter of a recent deceased OLL owner's estate, caused such guns to be released from police impound.
- DOJ agents regulary audit/inspect CA gunshops and there is no controversy over BB'd rifles in inventory.

oaklander
10-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Long arms are not registered. The entire point of this thread is to prevent people from coming into contact with law enforcement.

Although our rifles are legal, some LE officers still don't know that.

If a cop wants to hassle me about my OLL, cant he just run the serial number and see that it is legally registered to me?

oaklander
10-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Off list lower. A generic name for certain California-legal semi-automatic rifles.

What,s an oll?

wewex
10-23-2009, 10:36 PM
What i do when i go outdoor's or to the range is i take all my paper work all my invoices,receipt's,etc. with me. Is there something else i can print out to show an LE if i ever need to show them that my OLL is legal in CA.? THANKS

ShelbyGT500
10-23-2009, 11:08 PM
the flowchart and Sac PD memo should be all you need

oaklander
10-23-2009, 11:18 PM
Guys, I don't carry anything. If an LEO wants to bust you, he or she is going to do it, regardless of the legality of the rifle.

The trick is to never, ever do anything to call attention to yourself. . .

run8
11-07-2009, 8:49 PM
That's what I did, I took my time, seen what others were doing, read up on it over and over and then did my first build last year.

Can never have enough information.

Great points as simple as they may seem.

I understand the excitement and wanting to rush right into it all, but take your time, and like I've said before, read, read read all that you can, this forum has so much knowledge on it, it's amazing. Buy your parts and keep reading while waiting for them to come in. In the DROS period, keep reading, understand the laws and WHY they are that way. Keep yourself protected. Print out the flow chart and other important defense documents and keep with your weapons at all times.

If there's one thing I learned when dealing with OLL is that it comes with a lot of responsibility, more than you would think at first.

NiteQwill
11-09-2009, 2:31 PM
Another way to get arrested with your OLL:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=238857

OHOD
11-22-2009, 10:20 AM
Excellent advice and to your point of DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, I suggest if you (people reading this thread) haven't watched this video on YouTube (Don't Talk to Police) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc), take 45 minutes out of your life and watch it. NOW!

Excellent video.
Watched it all the way through.
Thanks for posting.

For each day above ground, is a day I learn something.

ANARCANGEL
11-23-2009, 9:23 AM
Also, print out and keep with you the Sacremento Police Memo on OLL's and the bullet button. See my signature #3 link, click the PDF link in the first post and print the pages numbered 96-98.

Where can I find this? Is it the same as the flow chart?

Librarian
11-23-2009, 11:02 AM
Where can I find this? Is it the same as the flow chart?

Different from the flow chart. Looks like ripcurlksm changed his .sig since that post.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

Added to the Calguns Foundation Wiki article on OLL (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Off_List_Lowers_%28OLL/OLR%29).

scr83jp
12-07-2009, 11:41 AM
Mods, please move to appropriate forum. I posted here because many NEW users do not visit the 2A forum.

--------

As a Board Member of the CGF, I get the dubious pleasure of hearing about arrests and gun confiscations. Many of these do not make it onto the forum. There are not too many, but there are still enough that it is troubling to me.

While there have been no successful OLL prosecutions, I think that people should still exercise common sense with respect to their OLLs.

The arrests and confiscations are falling into a pattern.

1) A NEW gun owner does something to bring himself to the attention of LE.

2) LE either arrests the new gun owner, or takes his OLL and starts an investigation.

Here is some advice for new shooters:

1) DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE.

This isn't meant to be anti-LEO, but is simply common sense. Most police in the state do not even know what an OLL is. Don't ask them about OLLs, don't talk to them about OLLs. What is simply an OLL to you is an AW to them.

More experienced Calgunners, who have existing relationships with LE, should of course work to educate LE.

2) DO NOT DO THINGS TO BRING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF.

Again, this is common sense, and has been posted about ad nauseum. But I will repeat it. Do not drive around with a broken windshield, do not speed. Keep your car or truck clean. BWO has an excellent thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=80571) on this topic.

3) MAKE SURE YOUR OLL IS LEGAL.

Read the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). Understand it. Do not configure your rifle in a way that is illegal.

Again, these are all common sense, but I think that some new gun owners are so excited about getting their first OLL that they kind of lose sight of common sense. I was in LE for 38 years and to maintain peace officer status I had to take certification classes usually taught by LE officers from other jurisdictions.I remember a conversation with an LA officer about the ammo I carried off duty I told him I carried jacketed hollow points,he said those were illegal but he wouldn't arrest me because I was an officer,he was way off they aren't illegal & never were .I had officers tell me certain weapons were illegal,they weren't.

Sarge744
01-04-2010, 7:05 PM
If i disasmble the upper from the bottom and i got pulled over would they hassle me if i had my ten round fixed magazine in the well

It depends on the education of the officer. California law is very complicated, and it appears those who make it intend for it to remain that way. Most of the folks I work with will struggle with certain assault weapon facts, unless they've made it a point to get up to date with them. The best education does not come from the DOJ, but places such as this.

There are all sorts of constant changing laws and case laws to keep up on. This may be overlooked, as most of my peers will look at how this applies to the criminal minded rather than the law abiding citizen. I would speculate the average patrol officer may be uncertain as to the legality of what you have and may call for a supervisor.

I would imagine that if you had the flow chart, along with other items mentioned in this post, you would be okay with most officers. Most of the folks I work with are also interested in having their own CA legal weapons.

I agree with several above as well. You should not have to prove your innocence when doing nothing wrong; however, with the education provided to law enforcement in this area being what it is, it is helpful.

oaklander
01-05-2010, 9:16 PM
If it's a "bullet button" build - you should travel with the MAG IN THE MAGWELL. It's easier to show that it is only detachable via tool when it is already in the magwell.

Make sure it's an empty mag!

Make sure it's only a 10 round mag!

SO, when traveling with your OLL, does it matter if you have a 10rnd mag in the well of if it's empty?

Sarge744
01-07-2010, 4:39 PM
If it's a "bullet button" build - you should travel with the MAG IN THE MAGWELL. It's easier to show that it is only detachable via tool when it is already in the magwell.

Make sure it's an empty mag!

Make sure it's only a 10 round mag!

This is the all around safest bet, even though it may be unnecessary according to the way the law is written. You may still encounter those who feel it is a gray area if the magazine well is empty. I don't feel it should make a difference, nor do I believe the way the law is written that it does make a difference, but my opinion will mean little to you if stopped.

CA_AR-15_925
01-20-2010, 2:54 PM
So if LEO checks my AR out at the range or BLM land and is saying to me that my Ar is illegal when I know it's not.
Should I even try to explain why it's legal and show him the flow chart and sac police memo that I have in my case at all time or say nothing and let him do what he is going to do.
Also how can you say something that the LEO can hold against you if you did nothing wrong and your gun is perfectly legal?

Sarge744
01-20-2010, 3:14 PM
So if LEO checks my AR out at the range or BLM land and is saying to me that my Ar is illegal when I know it's not.
Should I even try to explain why it's legal and show him the flow chart and sac police memo that I have in my case at all time or say nothing and let him do what he is going to do.
Also how can you say something that the LEO can hold against you if you did nothing wrong and your gun is perfectly legal?

I would. The statements you are using in this situation will be the same that you would use for defense in court. I don't see how it would hurt you at all, but saying nothing in this circumstance probably would.

30rdMag
01-31-2010, 3:44 AM
Here is my 2 cents.
I live in Arizona and visit California alot. I was taking my firearms with me back and forth.
I made sure I have a OLL, I also make sure my car is up to date, bone stock looking in every way. I do need to get a BB installed, But I think its just better to leave it in AZ.

Yes Dont speed, Dont stand out in a crowd. Drive a stock and not a flashy looking car. They dont even look at mine, Its not all about speeding, In california if the car looks non-oem in anyway, they will stop you, Missing front lic plate? window tint? fart can exhaust? Stickers? Dont carry anything, You will get pulled over when you drive past that police officer when he is trolling, I feel that even a NRA sticker in the back window of your car or truck in california is asking for it.

I also would and learned this in law class was to keep your windows up if they ask you to get out of the car. This keeps them one more step away. Window down? They can stick their heads in and look around. Windows up? You can look thru the windows, But you cant open the door to look around.

If they ask to look, decline based on safety for you and the officer being stopped on the side of the roadway. You feel that your concerned that you may get hit or rearended by a drunk driver, Even more so if the officer has you stopped at night and has all his deck lights on. Its a proven fishing lure for drunks.

DO NOT BE A RUDE AHOLE, be nice and polite when stopped, keep your hands on the wheel till he asks you to get your papers then tell him where they are at, once he or she nods, get them for them. he will feel safer around you. Keep your papers in an area thats easy to quick to get to.
Dont open your glove box ad have a box of rounds in there.

Also, Everyone has a cell phone. Get a visor clip for it. When you are stopped, call your phone number. This will record the whole stop onto your cell phones messaging system. That can be used in court, or be a lawyer to get you out of jail.

I have used a officers own duty belt voice recorder against him in court, for a bad traffic stop years ago. No days just use your phones. Make sure to use your name and his name "officer - Jones" when speaking to them.
You will be amazed, Keep it in the car if your asked to get out. You will recorcd everything that happens inside your car. If they find it and shut it off, you will still have it recorded on your voice mail. They cant delete it.

Also if you are ever arrested, NEVER speak in the back of a patrol car, They are listening and recording.

What works for everything and you? Out of sight is out of mind in california.
Everything is about money and your state needs it bad..... Its only going to get worse. I dont know any reason why anyone would want to live there anymore. Its a great state land wise, But the government is just out of control.

jdberger
02-25-2010, 9:56 AM
oaklander, regarding the mag......what are your thoughts on an empty 10/20 or 10/30 mag in the well?

An empty 10 round magazine is an empty 10 round magazine. It doesn't matter if it's a 10/20, 10/30 or 10/ham sandwich. What's important is that it's a 10 round magazine.

oaklander
02-25-2010, 11:32 AM
I agree with that. The only thing I would add is that if it's a 10/20 or 10/30 - you may have to spend extra time demonstrating to the LEO that it is still only a 10 round mag.

An empty 10 round magazine is an empty 10 round magazine. It doesn't matter if it's a 10/20, 10/30 or 10/ham sandwich. What's important is that it's a 10 round magazine.

Evolution05
02-26-2010, 11:32 PM
I recently move to CA from Wyoming. I know...I went from the state with the fewest and oldest laws to the one with most...what a drag, but you can't beat the weather.

I have two questions

1) If you are not yet an official resident of CA (don't have a CA driver's license or are driving a vehicle with out of state plates will this have any implications on possessing an OLL if you encounter an LEO.

Let's say you were to go to a shooting range or better yet out to Orosco Ridge to shoot an OLL and were approached by some sort of LEO. Could/would being a non resident or driving a vehicle with non resident plates pose a problem? What about the same circumstances but with just a handgun? In both scenarios the firearm themselves being legal (10 or less round mags, OLL complies with flowchart, etc)?

2) I just want to make sure I understand the flow chart correctly - does the flash hider issue only come into play if the firearm has a detachable magazine (uses a CA legal, non-pistol grip stock) or are flash hiders illegal in all circumstances on an AR-15 style rifle that is otherwise an OLL?

Trying to remedy my ignorance. Thanks for your help.

DedEye
02-27-2010, 1:44 AM
I recently move to CA from Wyoming. I know...I went from the state with the fewest and oldest laws to the one with most...what a drag, but you can't beat the weather.

I have two questions

1) If you are not yet an official resident of CA (don't have a CA driver's license or are driving a vehicle with out of state plates will this have any implications on possessing an OLL if you encounter an LEO.

Let's say you were to go to a shooting range or better yet out to Orosco Ridge to shoot an OLL and were approached by some sort of LEO. Could/would being a non resident or driving a vehicle with non resident plates pose a problem? What about the same circumstances but with just a handgun? In both scenarios the firearm themselves being legal (10 or less round mags, OLL complies with flowchart, etc)?

So long as it is a California compliant, properly configured OLL, no, state of residence does not matter.

2) I just want to make sure I understand the flow chart correctly - does the flash hider issue only come into play if the firearm has a detachable magazine (uses a CA legal, non-pistol grip stock) or are flash hiders illegal in all circumstances on an AR-15 style rifle that is otherwise an OLL?

Legal with a fixed mag on a semi-auto centerfire rifle. Unregulated in all other instances on rifles. The only things generally banned in all instances are NFA items like suppressors and grenade launchers.

oaklander
03-07-2010, 7:55 AM
If it is not on the list, you would have to fill in the stock or add a bullet button.

What about a Romanian PSL or Dragunov. In the traditional configuration are these rifles legal in CA? If not, what (if anything) can be done to make them comply?

Silencer
03-10-2010, 3:07 PM
I know it says 'Don't Talk To Police!" But what if he's asking general questions like, "What gun is that?" while I'm shooting a self-assembled AR15? Do I really want to say, "I'm not going to answer any of your questions until I speak to a lawyer?"

If I do answer, "It's an AR15" and he responds, "Those are illegal, aren't they?" I say, "No" or would I say, "I'm not going to answer any of your questions until I speak to a lawyer?"

If I say, "No" and he wants to know why I say "no" I say, "It's not on any ban list, nor is it qualified as an 'assault rifle.'

Now I'm screwed since I opened my mouth in the first place, right?

So, do I really say, "I'm not answering any of your questions?" That seems like a sure way of getting handcuffed to me, after he draws on me. I'm sure if I don't answer his simple questions, he'll 'investigate' and take my rifle away.

Your take on this.

Chris M
03-10-2010, 3:11 PM
I know it says 'Don't Talk To Police!" But what if he's asking general questions like, "What gun is that?" while I'm shooting a self-assembled AR15? Do I really want to say, "I'm not going to answer any of your questions until I speak to a lawyer?"

If I do answer, "It's an AR15" and he responds, "Those are illegal, aren't they?" I say, "No" or would I say, "I'm not going to answer any of your questions until I speak to a lawyer?"

If I say, "No" and he wants to know why I say "no" I say, "It's not on any ban list, nor is it qualified as an 'assault rifle.'

Now I'm screwed since I opened my mouth in the first place, right?

So, do I really say, "I'm not answering any of your questions?" That seems like a sure way of getting handcuffed to me, after he draws on me. I'm sure if I don't answer his simple questions, he'll 'investigate' and take my rifle away.

Your take on this.

It's not an AR15...it's an AR style rifle with an OLL.

Bonedoc
03-13-2010, 2:51 PM
Dang!
I learned more about OLL, CA laws, carry and ownership reading this while the "video" (which EVERYONE should view/listen to) played in the background. Thanks very much for the effort behind the original post and all the fine comments... too bad more duty LEs couldn't just study this thread... I've the SAC PDF now, will carry it always. Thanks again.
Doc

toconnor1074
03-16-2010, 8:30 PM
Police are not the problem, They may not always make the right choice on gun laws but you cant blame them. Even police are humans. Most citizens of CA dont understand gun laws and a lot of police thing the gun laws are BS. Criminals will get guns either way, they know that. Be mad at barbara boxer not LEO's. If you have a OLL then carry documentation, If you have a rifle then make sure its legal!. You wouldnt mod out a car and not have part numbers or documentation to say its legal. Thats what smog checks and Carb numbers are for. So carry the SAC document and use your OLL at the range not the backyard (BAY AREA CITIZENS.) Shooting people because they are on your Block/Street is a crime even if they want your nikes!

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:43 AM
I support our police officers, and do not want people to think that the police are the problem. They are part of the solution, and we must work with them to educate them.

The problem is really with the DOJ, and their outdated AW Guide, among other things. We are working to educate LE agencies around the state, and I am told that even the BOF may now be using the AW flow chart.

That being said, until that is accomplished, it is best to avoid contact with LE.

Police are not the problem, They may not always make the right choice on gun laws but you cant blame them.

ke6guj
03-17-2010, 12:04 PM
hey can you copy the link to that sacto pd pdf?
i seem to be having trouble finding it.
thanksGene has just about every important file hosted here, http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/

And the Sac PD OLL memo is here, http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

Ishooter
03-31-2010, 7:53 PM
I have a few questions and hoping that someone with the knowledge and experiences of the laws can help answering.

If your AR style rifle is completely legal in Ca, but you got in trouble with the police because of that rifle style. Will the DA continue to prosecute you, presumebly they know about that your rifle is legal? What is the chance that the DA will prosecute you? And what if they prosecute you and they can't win the case, who will pay for the attorney's fees? How much is a typical cost throughout the end?

Thanks,

jdberger
04-01-2010, 2:34 PM
So by looking at the Semi-Auto Rifle ID Flowchart I see that appendixes A,B, and C list what are generally deemed as "assault rifles".

No - those are "named" assault rifles. There's nothing "general" about it.

Regarding RRA lowers, the company makes a few lowers not on the lists. Some of us completely avoid the potential hassle of an LEO not understanding that by sticking with lowers that aren't named at all.

The DPMS lowers you're seeing aren't "Panthers".

ke6guj
04-25-2010, 12:53 AM
What about a preban colt sporter year 2000 registered as a assault weapon. Would you advise putting a BB on it just for extra preotection? But I can still run 30 rounders or not?
If you specifically registered it as an assualt weapon, and the registration was accepted, there is no need to put a BB on it. You can run large-capacity magazines in a RAW with no issues, even if you have a BB on it.

neuron
04-25-2010, 8:14 PM
Here's a question I'd like some help with. I have an M&P 15 ORC. S&W ships these to CA with a fixed stock (and it is fixed at the shortest position). I like everything about this gun. It is a tack-driver right out of the box, with Troy folding battle sights and quad carbine battle rail added after purchase. But I don't like the fixed stock. Can I legally upgrade to a collapsible stock? I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. The dealer I bought the M&P had a Remington AR (with classic pistol grip AND a collapsible stock) but I preferred to get the M&P. :o

ke6guj
04-25-2010, 8:23 PM
Here's a question I'd like some help with. I have an M&P 15 ORC. S&W ships these to CA with a fixed stock (and it is fixed at the shortest position). I like everything about this gun. It is a tack-driver right out of the box, with Troy folding battle sights and quad carbine battle rail added after purchase. But I don't like the fixed stock. Can I legally upgrade to a collapsible stock? I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. The dealer I bought the M&P had a Remington AR (with classic pistol grip AND a collapsible stock) but I preferred to get the M&P. :oI was not aware tht S&W was selling directly to CA FFLs. I would guess that they are going through a middleman who is not completely up to speed on all the regs and might think that even with a BB (I assume it came with a BB installed and wasn't shipped disassembled) that it needs a fixed stock.

As long as it does not ahve a detachable magazine, a collapsable stock is not prohibited.

neuron
04-25-2010, 10:40 PM
I was not aware tht S&W was selling directly to CA FFLs...

I bought my M&P 15 from a reputable gun shop in the Bay Area (has been in business for years), and I have to assume that they wouldn't sell anything illegal. Went through the DROS and 10 day Cali wait. This was a dealer sale (not PPT). So the M&P 15 ORC is legal as equipped at sale. The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here, or do I have to swap out the pistol grip to make it "featureless?" I have a bunch of 30rd pre-ban AR/M16 mags that fit the M&P 15, and which I assume are legal to use in it (with the M&P BB)...

ke6guj
04-25-2010, 11:19 PM
I bought my M&P 15 from a reputable gun shop in the Bay Area (has been in business for years), and I have to assume that they wouldn't sell anything illegal. Went through the DROS and 10 day Cali wait. This was a dealer sale (not PPT). So the M&P 15 ORC is legal as equipped at sale. I'm not saying it wasn't a legal sale. I was just saying that I doubt S&W sent the rifle into CA in that configuration. Some outside middleman FFL made it CA-legal before it was sent to your local FFL.

I was commenting on the statement, "I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. " and I was saying that S&W probably didn't do that to the CA shipment because they don't ship to CA. There are only a few manufacturers that sell directly to CA in a CA-legal configuration. Everybody else lets a middleman reconfig it for CA sale.


The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here,[/quote] if you want to run it with a fixed-mag, with a mag lock like the bullet button, you can have an adjustable stock.


or do I have to swap out the pistol grip to make it "featureless?" I have a bunch of 30rd pre-ban AR/M16 mags that fit the M&P 15, and which I assume are legal to use in it (with the M&P BB)...if you want to use your large-capacity mags in it, it must be featureless and have a standard mag release. So you would need to remove the "pistol grip feature". YOu can't use 11+round mags with a BB.

neuron
04-26-2010, 7:09 PM
I'm not saying it wasn't a legal sale. I was just saying that I doubt S&W sent the rifle into CA in that configuration. Some outside middleman FFL made it CA-legal before it was sent to your local FFL.

I was commenting on the statement, "I don't know why S&W did this for their CA shipments. " and I was saying that S&W probably didn't do that to the CA shipment because they don't ship to CA. There are only a few manufacturers that sell directly to CA in a CA-legal configuration. Everybody else lets a middleman reconfig it for CA sale.


The only feature that I want to change is the pinned non-adjustable stock. I just want to know if this mod is legal here, if you want to run it with a fixed-mag, with a mag lock like the bullet button, you can have an adjustable stock.


if you want to use your large-capacity mags in it, it must be featureless and have a standard mag release. So you would need to remove the "pistol grip feature". YOu can't use 11+round mags with a BB.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I didn't know about the "middlemen" thing in S&W shipments to CA, but it makes sense. This is what must have happened, because I visited another dealer today who sells M&Ps WITH factory collapsible stocks...so go figure.

I went and bought a DPMS collapsible to swap out. To add insult to injury, the removal was a bit of a PITA, since the castle nut was staked to the latch plate... I know the rationale for lock nut staking, but it means you have to carefully remove the staked nut so as not to mess up other parts, and you will ruin the nut. The DPMS kit comes with the replacement nut, latch plate, stock, buffer tube, spring, and buffer, all for about $60.

+1 re the standard capacity mags. I reviewed the laws and they can't be used in the M&P or any other OLL, even one in which the AW "features" (collapsible stock, pistol grip, flash/recoil suppressor) are absent. From the way I read the laws, you can use them ONLY in a RAW AR... Guess I won't be using mine on the Smith.:(

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 7:29 PM
Thanks. I didn't know about the "middlemen" thing in S&W shipments to CA, but it makes sense. This is what must have happened, because I visited another dealer today who sells M&Ps WITH factory collapsible stocks...so go figure.yup, different middleman, different californication.

I went and bought a DPMS collapsible to swap out. To add insult to injury, the removal was a bit of a PITA, since the castle nut was staked to the latch plate... I know the rationale for lock nut staking, but it means you have to carefully remove the staked nut so as not to mess up other parts, and you will ruin the nut. The DPMS kit comes with the replacement nut, latch plate, stock, buffer tube, spring, and buffer, all for about $60.to really add insult to injury, you probably didn't need to even swap out the buffer tube. You could have just unpinned the old stock and used it as-is, or remove the old stock and install a new stock.

+1 re the standard capacity mags. I reviewed the laws and they can't be used in the M&P or any other OLL, even one in which the AW "features" (collapsible stock, pistol grip, flash/recoil suppressor) are absent. From the way I read the laws, you can use them ONLY in a RAW AR... Guess I won't be using mine on the Smith.:(that would be incorrect. there is no law against using a large capacity magazine in a featureless rifle that does not have a fixed-mag release. You could use those mags in the S&W if you went featureless and put a standard mag release in it. At that point, it would be just like a Mini-14 or CA-legal M1a. both of those can use large capacity magazines legally.

daveyshooter
05-09-2010, 10:59 AM
I was at a local Bay Area gun show recently when I happened upon a table with ARs, AKs, and a couple of MPs on it.
There was a local policeman there, and I clearly heard him asking the vendor, "are these things legal?"

As the legal owner of several AR15s, I was pleased to see the vendor produce a copy of the Calguns AW flow chart, and as he did, he replied to the officer, "they sure are", and proceeded to educate the officer.

AirborneStranger
05-29-2010, 5:01 PM
I am going to be moving in a week and will be transporting 3 OLL rifles (2 AK-47's and 1 AR-15). Can someone please evaluate my transportation plan and let me know if it appears to check out?

- All rifles have bullet buttons on them and will be stored in rifle cases, unloaded, with no magazines in the well. I will not put cable locks on them unless you guys think it would be a good idea.

- I have multiple rebuild kits that I will be transporting as well, none will be assembled into magazines. Do I need to store rebuild kits in any particular way?

- I will be transporting ammunition separately in a locked container.

- I have printed out all the relevant OLL and AW files that I could find from searching this forum.

- My vehicle will be a truck, the rifles will most likely have to ride in the bed unless I can somehow cram them behind the seats (most likely can't). I will also be moving furniture, etc. If the rifles are in the bed, I will be sure to bury them under furniture so that they are not visible to an outsider looking into the bed.

The truck is stock, not flashy in any way. I will maintain the speed limit at all times and not make any unnecessary stops. My drive is 6 hours, so that is why I am trying to be as cautious as possible, I will be on the road for quite some time.

Thanks in advance guys! I first learned about OLL's from this forum years ago and was part of one of the first group-buys in Milpitas back before any guns stores sold them, I met a lot of you back then.

Dangerpin
05-29-2010, 5:25 PM
In-state move?

With bullet buttons it might be better to have empty mags in place, just to make any possible LEO explanations clearer. If the rifle case is locked you should be fine.

If it were me I would have the rebuild kits packed separately from everything else gun related but that is probably my personal paranoia.

AirborneStranger
05-29-2010, 5:59 PM
In-state move?

With bullet buttons it might be better to have empty mags in place, just to make any possible LEO explanations clearer. If the rifle case is locked you should be fine.

If it were me I would have the rebuild kits packed separately from everything else gun related but that is probably my personal paranoia.

In-state move, correct

My problem with putting empty mags in place is that I only have 1 5-round AK magazine, so I would have to buy another for the 2nd AK in order to do that.

With the rebuilds, I am trying to figure out the best place to stash them. I don't have much space to work with. I will keep them separate, however does anyone think I should go to great lengths to hide them? As in, keep all parts separate in different locations?

ke6guj
05-31-2010, 5:47 PM
Let's say I have a OLL in my left hand an ON list lower in my right.

How can I tell them apart? What are some of the subtle differences, if any?by the roll-mark. One roll-mark appears "on the list" and the other roll-mark doesn't.

ke6guj
05-31-2010, 6:19 PM
Roll mark, as in branding?yes

I meant can the on-list versions be converted to full auto easier, are they stronger steal, do they have additional holes or cross-sections.. you know, stuff that actually makes a difference between the two.no to all the above.

ke6guj
05-31-2010, 7:30 PM
Okay now I am really confused. I remember when the assault weapon law came into being and I knew it was stupid. But to see CA not let it go away like the feds did, oh well there must be a reason. the reason the CA AW bans did not go away like the feds is that the anti-gun legislators in CA had enough votes to get the ban passed without needing to insert a sunset clause like the feds had to do in order to get the fed AW passed.

Seems that we are simply discriminating against timing. Or maybe a company can close their doors and reopen the next day making "safer" firearms. But you say that there is no difference except where the lower is from?they don't even need to close their doors, just change the model marked on the lower is good enough. For instance, for the most part, all of Bushmaster's aluminum AR-15 lowers are marked XM-15 and are listed. But their Carbon-15 marked composite lower is not listed. They could come up with a different model listing for an aluminum and legally sell them in CA. But it appears that they value the XM-15 model too much to do so (CG'ers have talked to them at SHOT about altering the model designantion to something off-list, without success).

How did this pass? I am not complaining but come on now! It effectively negates the AW law because, mostly of a BB and a limited mag. Are the Brady people freaking out about this or are they okay with it?how did what pass? The AW list, or the fact that items not listed are not considered AWs by default like the listed models? That would be due to someone suing the state and getting the court to agree that "series" was vague, and that if they wanted to ban it, they needed to specifically list that make/model.

Yes, the Brady people are not happy about it, but the cat is out of the bag. It is too late for them to close the "off-list exemption" without creating hundreds of thousands of new legal AWs.

AQtahoe
06-07-2010, 7:52 AM
I may be new here but this threat actually rather irritated me. "Don't talk to the police"? Police hate, or the belief that police are ignorant is stupid. Flat out, STUPID. Every LEO, LEI, LEA that I have talked to knows what they are dealing with, they know all about the legalities of AR-15 modifications to ensure California Legality. Granted my experience rests only with Federal LE based in California. Either way believe it or not I know many police officers who are PRO personal protection, PRO personal CARRY, and very well educated on gun laws. The arrests come from gun safety issues or questionable conversions and modifications.

Chris M
06-07-2010, 8:08 AM
I may be new here but this threat actually rather irritated me. "Don't talk to the police"? Police hate, or the belief that police are ignorant is stupid. Flat out, STUPID. Every LEO, LEI, LEA that I have talked to knows what they are dealing with, they know all about the legalities of AR-15 modifications to ensure California Legality. Granted my experience rests only with Federal LE based in California. Either way believe it or not I know many police officers who are PRO personal protection, PRO personal CARRY, and very well educated on gun laws. The arrests come from gun safety issues or questionable conversions and modifications.

I don't think anyone here is hating on police. I respect and the job they have to do, but no one can expect them to know every single piece of the law, and be able to interpret it. They are not lawyers.

As far as "Don't Talk to Police", please watch this video (which has been posted in here already).

6wXkI4t7nuc

There are many documented cases where innocent, law-abiding citizens were unlawfully arrested. If they had simply kept their mouth shut they could have avoided this.

AQtahoe
06-07-2010, 8:22 AM
I've seen the video. I was a sociology major in college and we studied a lot of criminology as well. It was required to watch and analyze multiple times in school. Like I said, every single law enforcement officer, agent, investigator I have met, become friends with, talked with knows about the bullet button conversions. I live so close to Nevada and in the National Forest which begs for people with illegal guns to "hide out and shoot" people are stupid and bring CA illegal guns here all the time. The ones who have questionable guns are contacted but if they TALK TO THE POLICE and EXPLAIN their gun RATIONALLY no one is wrongfully arrested. It has been my experience that the people who don't talk to the police and brush off any questions about their ar-15s are the ones who the officers become more suspicious of and nervous around. Not talking to the police is a double edge sword. Have you ever heard the expression: "you make more friends with a smile"

Dangerpin
06-07-2010, 5:46 PM
Nope, never heard that one. I have heard the idiom, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." but I don't necessarily need to make a friend. I however agree that you should always be respectful of those who are charged with protecting us but disagree about police friend making. Never talk to police beyond what you are legally required. I have had LEO friends and I they have given me the same advice. Or more accurately, they have told me stories of how people talked themselves into a cell over and over again and that amounts to about the same thing.

Keep yourself legal, be respectful and shut the hell up.

AQtahoe
06-07-2010, 7:57 PM
To each their own, I suppose. I might also add that I am in the process of becoming USFS LEA. All of my experiences are with federal law enforcement agents. I have a lot of FBI friends. Local, state and county cops may be different. The Feds I know are strong proponents of personal protection and personal cary weapons, after-all in the national forests you have to expect 100% of the people you contact to be carrying a firearm. None of the LEA's I know let this fact scare them or even let it make them nervous. The mere fact that to determine if a ar-15 is CA-Legal is that you have to be examining the firearm personally. They are questionably legal, at best, from a distance.

just my two cents.

ke6guj
06-08-2010, 6:58 PM
So I had a long chat with my friend, and FFL dealer today. He refuses to accept or process or generally have anything to do with AR-15, AK and other assault weapons purely because it is "a silly loophole that people feel the need to squeeze through so that they can have a completely pointless gun, they get away with it by having a button that is pressed by a bullet, where the bullet is the 'tool' and the last time I checked the ATF's and DOJ's websites do not describe or define a bullet as a tool."
its fine if he doesn't want to deal with those types of firearms. His FFL, his perogative.

Regarding ATF and defining a bullet as a tool, no reason why they would, no federal law involved. CA does define a bullet as a tool on the website, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf


ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS

5469. Definitions:

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a)
"detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.



It will also be fun for you guys when you can only buy 2 boxes of ammo every 30 days starting the First of January 2011.wrong!! There is no law going into effect January 2011 that limits us to 2 boxes of ammo per 30-days.

I never will understand the need, desire or feeling that Assault weapons are good for home defense, hunting or whatever else you guys use them for. So have fun I guess.and that is your opinion. Others don't share it.

Hoop
06-08-2010, 8:15 PM
Please also define PRK?

People's Republic of California.

Also 45/70? Why torture yourself with that thing when you can have one of the zillion other calibers out there that is better?

oaklander
06-22-2010, 11:04 PM
My semi-auto AK clone was designed at the end of WWII, and has no plastic.

Semi-auto rifles that shoot intermediate rounds are ideal for home defense, some kinds of hunting, and "just for fun" plinking.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love my firearms as much as you do. I just happen to prefer wooden stocks and 1911's. My 47/70 would decimate any threat that came my way, and the most common threat I could possibly receive where I live is a bear breaking into my home. You can have all the plastic toys you want. I won't think any less of you guys. Like I said, I am a firm believer in individual personal protection and personal cary rights here in California.

CP562
06-29-2010, 12:18 AM
In the vein of "Don't talk to Police", another thing to consider...

Cops don't live in their uniforms, you may be speaking to one and not even be aware of it. Chances are increased if you're in an establishment that caters in any way to the armed populace.

Case in point (potentially):

Saturday, I got all itchy to make the purchase I'd been promising in anticipation of McD...since Straightline is closed Mondays, I figured I had the perfect excuse to make the 10 min drive there and give these guys some of the business I'd been meaning to send their way (mainly after seeing some of the posts from fellow Calgunners praising them for PPT and other accommodating practices--one of which I later experienced myself).

Went down there and talked to the guys about a half hour before close...told them how I heard of them and that I was in the market for a my first rifle in honor of the SCOTUS decision pending. At the time I probably didn't possess the level of knowledge required to be there (legalities, what to look for in a good rifle or avoid in a bad one)...so I quickly held a couple of rifles and went with the Century Arms WASR 10/63 because:

1. I wanted something with wood furniture in my safe.

2. AK platform was more in my price range for a starter rifle than AR.

3. Gentlemen in the store said they sold a lot of those, and the only other thing I saw on the shelf that looked like it fit 1 & 2 was a Dragunov that would have set me back another couple hundred bucks.

I came home and did my research, and plan on going back later in the week to inspect my particular rifle a little closer to see how I did in the "WASR Lotto"...cosmetically at least. Once I get it out, I'll post a range report.

So back to my comment on talking to LEO's...stopped at La Habra B5 on the way home to see if they had any ammo, and ran into a guy who was BS'ing with the sales guy to no end. I was in a hurry so I had to cut in a couple times to get the kid to check the end of the shelf for 7.62x39 (none there). So silly me, I get to giggling about my new purchase and Mr. Long Winded starts asking me more about it, if I've got it with me...I tell him at least twice that I just started papers on it but the FUD is non-stop at that point.

Before I could get out of there with my things, here's a sampling of what I had to wade through...in between the guy occupying the salesman (I could see the poor kid looking for a way to gracefully end the convo so he could help me) rattling off "war stories", after directly saying he never saw combat during his Army service. :confused:


"What is it a bolt action? If it has one of those 'banana clips' you better take that thing down to LHPD right now!" (this after I twice mentioned that the gun was in a wait period and I had just purchased it directly from the FFL)

"That Mini 14 right there is what you want to get. That's pretty much the best you can do in California when it comes to black rifles." (too bad I didn't know B5 was currently selling the IO at the time, doh)

"Those bullet buttons are grey areas in the law, and only the rich or privileged see the benefit of those."

Same guy had no clue about McD when I brought it up, telling him..."Monday starts the ball rolling, we'll be a free state just like everyone else soon enough.", and he also brushed it off real quick when I suggested he check out CGN.

(quick note: the LEO forum is one of the first things i usually mention to people I meet and tell about CGN...I think it gives a certain air of legitimacy FWIW to those who have doubts when I tell them that we have current and retired LEO/MIL as regular posters on the site. I always mention that everything is "on the up and up" and that no one here would last long attempting to make posts that encourage anything illegal).

I know it may sound paranoid or out of place without having the full context of the situation...but this guy's pointed line of questioning, combined with his asking me if I had the rifle with me, the FUD he was spouting and a couple of visual clues (haircut, style of dress with no tattoos) had me at least re-evaluating that whole exchange after reading through this thread...thus my (long winded...and no, the irony is not lost :D ) words of caution.

As usual, CGN, thanks for being here for the law abiding gun-owner in California and all the efforts on our behalf to keep us on the right side of the law.

:gunsmilie:

Exile Machine
07-07-2010, 2:26 PM
I am sorry for asking this, but what does OLL stand for?

Off List Lower.

Hatch
08-05-2010, 10:48 AM
- Or maybe the Q should be, "If I'm illegal, how illegal am I??"

First post on this great Forum. I've read and/or scanned this thread pretty carefully, not sure if this is the right place for this query, but seems it should be at least close.

Lifetime trained shooter here, NRA, NAGR, GOA, etc. Many guns, brand spankin' new to AR's. Somehow, in my months of research prior to placing my configured and option-selected order for a Rock River Elite Comp, I had not heard of Calguns.net. Shame on me!

My first exposure to Calguns was on the day I picked up my RRA LAR-15 Elite Comp from my FFL last week. I took it to a local Tactical (AR, AK, shotgun, etc.) shop I had just discovered that day. I was looking for a few supplies, tools, Big Latch, rail covers, etc.

The proprietor took one look at my carbine, remarked that since it's a RRA upper on a RRA lower, it's an ILLEGAL weapon. He took a quick look around to see if there were any LEO's in the shop, and immediately knocked out the pivot pin, handing it back to me and advising me to never enter his shop again with it assembled, because it's a felony, and having it on site is a risk to his business.

Hm. My FFL had indicated that bringing this carbine into CA would be legal as long as it had the bullet button conversion, which was done by the out of state dealer he works with. I explained my understanding based on what I had been informed by my FFL. His response was that FFLs don't necessarily know the law. He does, and I'm in violation of State law.

For clarity, this is what I now have in my possession:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=374

His suggestion to me was either replace the upper, or start over with a new lower. He printed out and handed me the current CALGUNS CA Centerfire, Semi-Auto, Rifle ID flow chart, which resembled several others I had previously seen, but had not attempted to decipher, since I had the assurance of several other Pro's in addition to my FFL that my carbine would be legal with the bullet button conversion. SURE ENOUGH -- it lists, "Rock River Arms, Inc.: Standard A-4 Flattop" in Appendix B.

So now the Q is this: Can any of you CA Law experts confirm or refute the legal status of this carbine in CA? Any knowledgeable, rational, fact-based takes on the pickle I seem to've got myself into here?

Any appropriate supporting links, etc. most welcome!!

Pls reply ASAP, I'm scheduled for a day with some Pals at the range on Saturday and don't want to end the day with a lawyer, a fine, harassment, or the slammer!

-- One formerly law-abiding, but now be-FUDDLED (as in full of FUD) new AR owner, and apparently potential new unconvicted felon:eek:

Chris M
08-05-2010, 12:46 PM
- Or maybe the Q should be, "If I'm illegal, how illegal am I??"

If you haven't yet seen the flowchart, it's definitely work taking a look at (and printing a copy or two for your range bag)

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Appendix B on the flowchart specifically lists several RRA AR's. Be absolutely certain that yours isn't one of those listed.

bwiese
08-05-2010, 1:38 PM
Hatch...

The only RRA rifles banned by specific model are the following (in 11 CCR 5499, the "Kasler" list):

- Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A2
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Car A4 Flattop
- Rock River Arms, Inc. LE Tactical Carbine
- Rock River Arms, Inc. NM A2 - DCM Legal
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-2
- Rock River Arms, Inc. Standard A-4 Flattop

A Rock River Arms "Elite Comp" is NOT banned by name.

As long as you are not one of these six banned-by-name RRA models and you are also SB23 compliant (i.e, BulletButton maglock+10rd mag, etc.) you're good. If someone causes you legal trouble we will defend you - I don't think that's gonna happen at this late date.

The FFL you talked to was correct in his general concern, but wrong in the specifics in your case. RRA receivers are indeed off-list (marked as "LAR-15") - but certain individual rifle *models" are banned: these models, however, have nothing to do with the markings on the receiver (which is only "LAR-15"). Thus in this case an unbanned receiver has a risk of being on a gun that could be banned by name as a whole.

For details on how certain RRA rifles are problematic, please see the thread on Calguns I created awhile back describing the situation and methods to alleviate prospective problems.

For your situation I'd just keep on the way you are and shoot the hell out of it. Keep your receipt just in case.

Hatch
08-06-2010, 9:08 AM
I appreciate the replies, guys.

Thanks for your patience.

Bill, following your ref to previous threads, I believe you got to the crux of the matter here:

NO!

...if an RRA upper is affixed to an RRA lower such that the resultant combination produced is one of the banned RRA entities on the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) such as "RRA Standard A4 Flattop", etc. - you could be in trouble, as that may be regardable as a 'listed' Kasler entity.

This may be a defendable case for a variety of other reasons, but you shouldn't go there for practicality's sake.
Otherwise, you might end up having to fight son-of-Harrott, etc.

If I had an RRA receiver, I would not put an RRA upper on it - or the RRA upper/configuration would be so sufficiently/visibily different from a banned entity that it could in no way be regarded as one of the banned RRA entities.

There is low probability that this'd be detected by cops/DA/crime lab - they're likely to say RRA LAR15 is the make/model - but the risk does exist and should be avoided.

Period.

. . .[sigh]. . . And here I thought I was PAST the steep part of the legal learning curve long before I had my FFL and out of state dealer place my order with RRA! Typical AR Newb ignorance on my part, I'm sure.

Seems to me the Sacto Power Elites have succeeded in doing what they do best -- Deliberately creating a horrifically complex, dark and confusing, convoluted abomination. It's a silly, indecipherable, quasi-contradictory legislative nightmare, so that any Citizen who sincerely INTENDS to follow the rule of law (such as myself) is forced into a dubious, submissive posture, and lives under constant threat of The State. True intimidation is achieved by exploiting intentional confusion and grey areas on both sides of the law.

We're not really Citizens anymore, are we? They're closing in on exactly where they want their SUBJECTS -- in constant fear of being arbitrarily persecuted. Get out of line according to the bureaucrat's personal opinion of what's "out of line", and they won't hesitate to bring the full force of the liberal activist dominated judical system to bear. Ever more scaling ladders appear on the walls of the Second Amendment. . .

I figure best not provoke the demons of tyranny, but be prepared to defend myself at all times against the relentless onslaught. This fits my personal philosophy behind owning an AR in the first place.

OK, still behind the curve on CALGUNS, but eager to master it --

One more Q: Where to find my best legal defense on this - just in case?

- Hatch

jdberger
08-18-2010, 11:07 AM
With regard to the Sacramento PD sheet posted here for our pleasure.

Can't or wouldn't an uneducated officer just look at that and say or think.... anyone could have made up a sheet like that?

What would be great (well then again maybe it would come back and shoot us in the foot), if members from this site were to put together a traveling informational course on the California Legal AR's, to go out and teach the LE personel the truths surrounding the missinformation? Or would that be just asking for trouble?

It seems to me. If it is legal to own the BB AR's (which it is), that helping to educate the LE would be a huge step in the right direction. Or do you think it would just insite the anti gun folk?

What are your thoughts?

This is an excellent suggestion. CGF is already working on this.

ddcorral2622
08-30-2010, 8:46 PM
If your rifle is featureless, you can use 30 round mags as long as you acquired them legally

serpentsanddaggers
08-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Just as an addendum to the insight posted... when you shoot your OLL at a public range be aware that LE is usually there as well. Maybe shooting right next you. So remember those 30 and 20 round mags that you cherish?, Leave them at home, use your head and remember that your action reflect on all or us gun owners.

jdberger
08-31-2010, 9:33 AM
Thanks, so acquired legally would be how?

Broadly speaking, acquired before 2000.

(Assuming you're in CA)

noveskePL
08-31-2010, 10:03 PM
what about a pistol grip? most of us have it on our OLL and on the flowchart is shown as illegal. please explain...

GNE
09-01-2010, 12:43 AM
By using a bullet button, you get a rifle without a detachable magazine, and that skips over the part about pistol grips and flash suppressors etc. on the flowchart.

noveskePL
09-01-2010, 9:24 AM
could you please explain HOW if you have a "non detachable" radlock magazine, this SKIPS over the fact that you still have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, and magpul extendable stock.

can someone please explain in legal terms how the flowchart allows you to supposedly SKIP over this very pertinent legal matter....

I just would like to know my rights and legalities of my rifle..

Chris M
09-20-2010, 10:31 AM
could you please explain HOW if you have a "non detachable" radlock magazine, this SKIPS over the fact that you still have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, and magpul extendable stock.

can someone please explain in legal terms how the flowchart allows you to supposedly SKIP over this very pertinent legal matter....

Because when you reach the part that asks "Does the Rifle have a detachable magazine?", you answer "No" and move on to the next step(s) on the flowchart, which have nothing do do with the 'evil features'...thus 'skipping' the 'evil features'.

A mag-lock is a mag-lock. It locks the magazine, so that your gun does not have a detachable magazine, therefore, the evil features don't even come into play.

If the flowchart isn't clear enough, then read the penal code.

wlltest
09-21-2010, 12:11 PM
So if your specific rifle model isn't listed in the tables of the flowchart and it doesn't meet any of the criteria for an Assault Rifle, then technically it isn't considered an AW in California right? There's a Norinco AK style rifle I'm interested in. But it isn't specifically listed.

Chris M
09-21-2010, 12:54 PM
So if your specific rifle model isn't listed in the tables of the flowchart and it doesn't meet any of the criteria for an Assault Rifle, then technically it isn't considered an AW in California right? There's a Norinco AK style rifle I'm interested in. But it isn't specifically listed.

Carefully follow the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf), and you'll see that there are many characteristics of a rifle that could make it an "assault weapon".

If the make/model are specifically listed in Appendix A, B, or C, then the rifle is automatically an assault weapon regardless of configuration.

If it's not listed in any of the 3 appendixes, then it must have a fixed magazine (properly installed mag-lock will suffice), or have all 'evil' features* removed.

* Evil Features:
Pistol Grip
Forward Pistol Grip
Flash Suppressor
Folding / Collapsible Stock
Thumbhole Stock
Grenade Launcher

ke6guj
09-21-2010, 3:52 PM
It is a Norinco BWk-92 Sporter. It has a thumbhole stock. But I would replace it with a regular AK style stock, a MonsterMan grip and a magazine lock
yup, looks off-list to me. If you are installing a maglock, you dont need a monsterman grip. If you want to install a monsterman grip, you don't need a maglock (provided there is no flash hider installed).


If you have a Magazine lock, can you install a forward pistol grip?yes.

ke6guj
09-21-2010, 4:17 PM
follow the flowchart, if you answer no to the 'detachable mag' question, you skip the "evil features" question.

SKG19
10-01-2010, 4:40 PM
After you have been a member here for a few more months you will look back at your mindset during this time and cherish it as "quaint"... while staring into your gun safe smiling at your collection of ARs and AKs. :thumbsup:

I was like centurycitygun when I first started...that wore off quickly though as I read more and researched.

On a side note...still a ton of basic questions being asked. If you can't figure it out based on the flowchart or the search...you may want to rethink you intent to buy a OLL, because there may become a day where you'll have to explain the legality of your rifle to a LEO and if you were spoon fed answers on this forum your ability to recall why your rifle it legal may be suspect...at least IMO. Maybe it's just me, but taking the hours or days to figure things out by reading and searching sticks in my head much better than being force fed answers.

There's no question about OLL that can't be answered by using the search or the flowchart...none...they've been asked...there are no new questions...I guarantee it.

DannyInSoCal
10-02-2010, 12:12 AM
Heading to RifleGear in the AM to pick the last piece of the "Evil-Feature-Less" puzzle - Replacing my A2 flash suppressor with a muzzle brake.

And here is a question that may be too simple to answer:

I've built my AR style rifle to be "Evil-Feature-Less" with a HammerHead, fixed stock, removed the Raddock button, and muzzle brake - NO forward grip, pistol grip, flash suppressor, thumb hole or adjustable stock, or grenade/flare launcher - Can I still use 10 round mags...?

I've got my ancient set of old hi-cap mags rebuilt to run with the new 6.8 upper - But nobody has mentioned using 10 round mags on an "Evil-Feature-Less" build.

If its a stupid question - I blame the scotch.........

joelogic
10-02-2010, 12:17 AM
With a featureless build you can use any mag you want. 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 90, 100.

jdberger
10-19-2010, 9:39 AM
I'm confused again, I have a dpms upper and double star lower that I bought from popular gun store in the fontana area. It has the evil stuff on it, but does have the bullet button. I was told that this was legal and I have used it to hunt the squirrels, plus, i only have the 10 round mags for it. Since dpms is on the appendix b then is this still legal? thx robert

"DPMS" refers to the lower, not they upper. You're fine.

Even with the flow chart, the AW laws are a Byzantine mess. LEOs and DAs can't even keep them straight.

Support CGF. Help us tear down these bad laws.

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate

Trashcanman
11-19-2010, 12:44 PM
Hi all, I have a few queestions? I am going to go pick up a new m&p15t in the next week that I recently ordered. My main question is how often do the folks at the range see these things and is it safe to go to a local range with it? Chances are that there will be LEO's there and the last thing I want to do is create a situation that draws attention to me. *** far as I know it is a legal AR and it definately has a BB on it and just to be safe I will never go to the range with anything more than a 10 rd magazine. I have already purchased some 30 round magazines set to hold 10 rounds, but I don't want to draw attention to anything that would arouse suspicion.

I am also printing out a copy of the letter that has been circulated with the Sacramento Sheriff Department in regards to these rifles. This copy will be in my case at all times just in case I would happen to need it. I don't drive like a maniac, I don't drink, and I don't do things that would attract the attention of the law. However, going to the range with one of these rifles could potentially put me in contact with someone that is against the ownership of the rifles.

One more thing, I do not plan to run out to the range on day one. My plan is do more and more research, then call the range I plan on going to and ask questions and then most likely join the range as a member. I have one in mind based on recomondations from friends, but I don't know how often they see these rifles and whether or not people pee their pants because of the big scary ar15.

thanks in advance for your help

Chris M
11-19-2010, 1:24 PM
Hi all, I have a few queestions? I am going to go pick up a new m&p15t in the next week that I recently ordered. My main question is how often do the folks at the range see these things and is it safe to go to a local range with it? Chances are that there will be LEO's there and the last thing I want to do is create a situation that draws attention to me. *** far as I know it is a legal AR and it definately has a BB on it and just to be safe I will never go to the range with anything more than a 10 rd magazine. I have already purchased some 30 round magazines set to hold 10 rounds, but I don't want to draw attention to anything that would arouse suspicion.

I am also printing out a copy of the letter that has been circulated with the Sacramento Sheriff Department in regards to these rifles. This copy will be in my case at all times just in case I would happen to need it. I don't drive like a maniac, I don't drink, and I don't do things that would attract the attention of the law. However, going to the range with one of these rifles could potentially put me in contact with someone that is against the ownership of the rifles.

One more thing, I do not plan to run out to the range on day one. My plan is do more and more research, then call the range I plan on going to and ask questions and then most likely join the range as a member. I have one in mind based on recomondations from friends, but I don't know how often they see these rifles and whether or not people pee their pants because of the big scary ar15.

thanks in advance for your help

Let us know which ranges you frequent, or plan to frequent. Then we can give you some real-world answers and observations. I usually go to Field Sports Park in South San Jose. I haven't been there in a while, but I've seen AR style rifles on many occasions, in different configurations, and no one was giving anyone a hard time about it.

hk91666
11-21-2010, 7:29 AM
Sac Valley is the one I have been thinking about going to. Rancho Cordova range was another one. If I like Sac Valley I plan on joing up as a member.

My biggest worry is showing up with a m&p 15t and people peeing their pants. Or is a leo is there and decides he want to ask questions petaining to my rifle.

Has any of you been approached by the LE on a range and been questioned over it? I plan on have that letter that was writtin by a sac sheriff in my bag at all times. The last thing I want is to walk into the range with a brand new rifle and leave the place without my rifle because a leo decided it didn't fit what he though was a ca legal ar. I will be getting it in the next few day and posting a pic and pointing out why I think it is legal. Hopefully I get input back so I know I am going this the right way. Obviously I am not affraid to own one, I just want to make sure I can keep it.

I go to Yolo Sportsman in Davis with both of my Ar's no questions or problems as there are others there with them. Some LEO's shoot there as well..

Dangerpin
11-26-2010, 6:48 PM
I've never had a problem at Sac Valley and I've taken things that are arguably scarier looking than a BB'ed AR, though I have had my ARs there too. Everyone I have talked with there has been decently knowledgeable about the gun laws. Occasionally people will express interest and ask questions but that is fine with me. I've never had anyone who identified him or herself as a Law Enforcement Officer but all my guns legally configured so I guess I don't worry much.

Sac Valley is no problem. Shoot with peace of mind.

. *** far as I know it is a legal AR and it definately has a BB on it and just to be safe I will never go to the range with anything more than a 10 rd magazine. I have already purchased some 30 round magazines set to hold 10 rounds...

You had better stick to only 10 round mags or less for BB'ed guns. If you want to use larger mags you have to go featureless. You probably meant that, I just wanted to clarify.

rromeo
11-29-2010, 1:34 PM
What are you refering to when you use the acronym "McD" ?

I'll jump up and down on the limb and guess he was speaking of the Supreme Court case of McDonald vs Chicago.

centurycitygun
12-09-2010, 5:42 PM
So I've added the new Benelli MR1 to my CA legal collection of auto rifles. (includes Kel Tec SU 16 CA, MP 15 22, and SR 22). I'm sticking with the featureless route and 22s until I see something in writing from DOJ or LAPD or LASD that oks bullet buttons. I know...I'm still a *****. BTW, the MR1 with the comfotech stock is a fun rifle but a pain to tear down.

Tzvia
12-29-2010, 9:44 AM
I have a question that I have not seen addressed in the time I have been a member of cal guns.

I have three OLL AR’s- one has a 22 dedicated upper on top and the other two are 5.56 uppers

Most of my shooting is with 22 conversion kits installed in the 5.56 uppers. We all know that the AW law is for center fire rifles, but has anyone been detained, inconvenienced or otherwise gotten in heat for having evil features on an AR with a .22 conversion kit installed? I pretty much leave the .22 kits installed and do not even take a 5.56 BCG, 5.56 magazines or ammo when I go to the range. I save that for “out of state” pleasure trips.

Any suggestions on how to protect myself from overzealous/or AW uneducated LEO’s? (Other than locking my case, keeping a copy of the flow sheet with me, etc) My rifles are all pretty simple – only evil features are a pistol grip and collapsible stock.

I've heard so much fud regarding 22 kits and 22 uppers. At one store, they insisted that I use a BB on the lower with a full 22 upper installed (not a conversion, a 22 chambered upper) UNLESS the lower does not indicate on it that it is 223 or 5.56 or other centerfire caliber. As if just having a lower that says .223 with a pistol grip and no BB was against the law, but ok if it did not state it was for a centerfire cartridge. I know better, a lower without an upper is not semi-automatic so cannot trigger any kind of aw status. However, an upper built to take .223 or any centerfire round, should never go on such a lower without a BB, even with a 22 conversion kit in it IMO (and I am not a lawyer, just not a good idea IMO.) The upper is still chambered in a centerfire cartridge. Now having a 22 upper on it is different, as it as the barrel is chambered for a rimfire round. Again, I'm no lawyer, but I go by what the barrel is chambered for. I'm about to order a 22 upper from CMMG and build one of my bare lowers dedicated to it with no BB and a pistol grip and I don't care if it says .223 on the side.

In your case, I would keep a BB installed- your rifle is chambered for a centerfire round, regardless of the adapter inserted IMO. Now let the lawyers chime in... ;)

Tzvia
01-16-2011, 6:20 AM
OK, I know this is a basic question, but better to be absolutely certain I understand the Calguns Flowchart before I purchase a complete upper for the S&W M&P-15 stripped lower I just purchased.

So first, I don't see the S&W M&P-15 listed in appendices A, B, or C and since I bought it from City Arms in Pacifica, a fully licensed CA firearms retailer, I presume I am legal so far.

Now here's the question: I am interested in buying a Rock River complete upper half with the same name as a model that appears in Appendix B. However, I am of the understanding that the names listed in Appendix B only apply to lower receivers (the registered part carrying the serial number) and should not apply to the complete upper that I am interested in. Is this correct?

The upper does not matter, in terms of name, only in terms of evil features, if you are making a 'featureless' build to avoid using a bullet button. The lower is the 'firearm' and what is on the lower is what matters in terms of 'brand and model'. Yes our 'assault weapon' laws are a patchwork of nonsense...

That S&W lower is GTG with a bullet button installed- back when the list came into being, they were not making ARs so are not on the list, and thanks to Aaaannnnaaaalld no other 'assault weapons' can be added by brand and model.

ke6guj
01-26-2011, 6:57 PM
OLL = off-list lower, a receiver that isn't on the list of named assault weapons.

Here is a list of acronyms that are commonly used on the forum, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606&highlight=acronym . Yes, there are a lot, and not all are documented, but you need to read and you will start to pick up the lingo. Most of us aren't gonna take the time to spell out "off list lower", "registered assault weapon" "law enforcement officer", etc and are just gonna say OLL, RAW, LEO, etc.

komifornian
01-27-2011, 11:22 AM
Curious - There are a few people in this thread that are not convinced that a bullet button is legal and I'm trying to grasp their logic.
Question - If Legally a bullet is considered a tool then any logical person would assume that there must be a device that can be manipulated by that tool otherwise why have the tool or for that matter address this tool in Title 11, Division 5, Chapter 39, Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines. In my opinion because this is specifically addressed in ARTICLE 2. DEFINITIONS OF TERMS USED TO IDENTIFY ASSAULT WEAPONS 5469 any judge or LEO would be hard pressed to find to the contrary. Make sense?

jdberger
01-27-2011, 2:26 PM
Curious - There are a few people in this thread that are not convinced that a bullet button is legal and I'm trying to grasp their logic.


There are some people who are convinced that the world is flat.

You can't reach some folks. Conserve your energy.

tonb
01-31-2011, 12:30 PM
ok i have a question for some of you law experts. a friend of mine has a sister who is a leo and she told him that when transporting your ars or aks it must have the magazine in the rifle but it must be empty. i always thought that magazine must be detached with a lock on the rifle.

That is FUD, you don't need to put an empty mag in the rifle for transport.

Also, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you don't need to lock a rifle either, only a handgun.

Chris M
01-31-2011, 12:38 PM
...you don't need to lock a rifle either, only a handgun.

Even for rifles/shotguns, It's good practice to lock, or place in trunk, just in case you pass through school zones.

CSACANNONEER
01-31-2011, 12:42 PM
That is FUD, you don't need to put an empty mag in the rifle for transport.

Also, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you don't need to lock a rifle either, only a handgun.

True about the mag. False about transporting. Niether a long gun nor a handgun is required to be locked while transporting unless, the handgun is concealed in any way and/or you are traveling through a GFSZ. When traveling through a GFSZ, all firearms must be locked!

tonb
01-31-2011, 1:08 PM
True about the mag. False about transporting. Niether a long gun nor a handgun is required to be locked while transporting unless, the handgun is concealed in any way and/or you are traveling through a GFSZ. When traveling through a GFSZ, all firearms must be locked!

That was a confusing reply. Are you saying he was right about mag and wrong about transport, or me. I assume me since you quoted me, but we seem to have the same opinion. Just wanted to clarify :) (gun free zones aside)

edit: sorry, I see why, I said lock handgun. :) But I am still under the belief that unless openly carried on a holster, it must be put in a locked container, a trigger or barrel lock does not count.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.php
HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not lawfully prohibited from firearm possession, and who resides or is temporarily in California, from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person provided the firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.

SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Penal Code 12276 or 12276.1 must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.


edit2: In fact, it is pretty clearly illustrated in the Penal Code that you must lock handguns for transport. (I understand it says concealed, but I read that as is simply in the car constitutes concealed, which I'm guessing is why that above link describes it as such, though it does omit OC in the holster)

(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.


12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.

Ie. driving with a pistol on the passenger seat is going to get you a visit to the gray bar motel

ke6guj
01-31-2011, 1:20 PM
edit2: In fact, it is pretty clearly illustrated in the Penal Code that you must lock handguns for transport.





Ie. driving with a pistol on the passenger seat is going to get you a visit to the gray bar motelonly if it is concealed. If it is openly displayed on the passenger seat, it is not a violation of 12025.

12025
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

he would have to make sure he didn't violate any GFSZ during he drive, but that wouldn't be a 12025 violation.

tonb
01-31-2011, 1:30 PM
only if it is concealed. If it is openly displayed on the passenger seat, it is not a violation of 12025.

he would have to make sure he didn't violate any GFSZ during he drive, but that wouldn't be a 12025 violation.

I had once thought that too but I recall reading a thread in here where a calgunner had his life turned upside down for having an unloaded pistol on the passenger seat during a routine stop. Arrested, the whole 9 yards. Was I dreaming?

Chris M
01-31-2011, 2:08 PM
I had once thought that too but I recall reading a thread in here where a calgunner had his life turned upside down for having an unloaded pistol on the passenger seat during a routine stop. Arrested, the whole 9 yards. Was I dreaming?

Well, that wouldn't make any sense, whatsoever...If you could legally open carry outside your vehicle, but you couldn't open carry inside your vehicle.

Sounds about on-par for CA law, though...so you never know. :confused:

[edit]
clarified wording.

ke6guj
01-31-2011, 2:52 PM
I had once thought that too but I recall reading a thread in here where a calgunner had his life turned upside down for having an unloaded pistol on the passenger seat during a routine stop. Arrested, the whole 9 yards. Was I dreaming?just because he got arrested doesn't mean that he was actually breaking a law. Just because an LEO might have improperly arrested him doesn't make his open carry conduct illegal.

Well, that wouldn't make any sense, whatsoever...You can legally open carry outside your vehicle, but you can't open carry inside your vehicle.you can open carry in your vehicle, as long as it is not concealed. just have to watch out for GFSZ's.

949S_GP100
02-04-2011, 10:30 AM
This is probably a newb question...But if I am transporting several long guns and 2-3 hand guns all (unloaded of course) in a large SUV. Do all of these firearms need to be in a locker? I have been had these laying in the back under towel (literally). Please clarify if the lock box is to protect property or to be legally compliant. Thanks in advance

oaklander
02-04-2011, 1:54 PM
OK, this is the way I think about transporting guns.

This is the general rule:

1) Everything needs to be unloaded

2) Everything needs to be in a locked "container." An SUV is not a locked container, but a car trunk is.

3) If you don't drive though any GFSZ, then the rifles don't have to be in a locked container. But the pistols still do, no matter what.

It's safer to start with the assumption that everything must be unloaded and in a locked container, then adjust as needed.

This is probably a newb question...But if I am transporting several long guns and 2-3 hand guns all (unloaded of course) in a large SUV. Do all of these firearms need to be in a locker? I have been had these laying in the back under towel (literally). Please clarify if the lock box is to protect property or to be legally compliant. Thanks in advance

nation
02-08-2011, 10:21 PM
EDIT-
think i found my own answer

16" barrels dont need to have the muzzle brake pinned/welded
dont gamble with muzzle brakes that also are flash hiders

Brandon04GT
02-13-2011, 9:38 PM
So I haven't read ALL the pages here but I have two quick questions:

I know how a "locked container" can be the trunk of a car (not an SUV), because trunklids basically require a KEY to open. But what if I can access the trunk from inside the car by pulling down the rear seats, which does not require a key? Does the trunk still count as a "locked container"?

Also, what are you supposed to do if you get pulled over for whatever trivial reason and the officer asks you if you have any guns or weapons in the car? Would you have to say yes? Which then probably means there is a high chance they may want to see it which will then start trouble?


Thanks

oaklander
02-14-2011, 7:29 AM
You do not need to say anything to a police officer.

So I haven't read ALL the pages here but I have two quick questions:

I know how a "locked container" can be the trunk of a car (not an SUV), because trunklids basically require a KEY to open. But what if I can access the trunk from inside the car by pulling down the rear seats, which does not require a key? Does the trunk still count as a "locked container"?

Also, what are you supposed to do if you get pulled over for whatever trivial reason and the officer asks you if you have any guns or weapons in the car? Would you have to say yes? Which then probably means there is a high chance they may want to see it which will then start trouble?


Thanks

oaklander
02-15-2011, 1:07 AM
The other day some friends and I were shooting on family private property. A local sheriff who lived down the road stopped by to see what we were doing. Since I saw him coming, I put my rifle in the trunk.

He didn't ask to inspect the gun - and I am not even sure that he could, since I was parked right on the private property boundary, and not on a public road.

But he asked an open ended question:

"What are you shooting?"

I said "7.62x39."

If I had said "an AK" - it might have caused him to want to look at the gun.

The point is that what I did was subtle - I gave him a reason to leave, and didn't give him an excuse to escalate.

That is the kind of stuff that you learn when you get a little older - it's not necessarily an age thing - but age helps.

phdo
02-15-2011, 2:45 AM
I understand that, and for the same reason, I thank all the CGN members for sharing their experiences. I've learned a lot from you guys. I learned how to be a law abiding, responsible gun owner. I just think that people shouldn't make biased assumptions. I was a firearm noobie, but thanks to all the CGN people, I now have a firm grasp of the firearm laws. It is unfair, and uncalled for, when someone singles out a certain demographic as the burden of blame. That's my two cents.

tonb
02-15-2011, 9:03 AM
just because he got arrested doesn't mean that he was actually breaking a law. Just because an LEO might have improperly arrested him doesn't make his open carry conduct illegal.

Right but the whole point of this thread is how to not get arrested. Just because it is legal to do something, doesn't mean it is a good idea, case in point open carry. Sure you can legally OC, then get belligerent with an officer and give him the finger as you storm off, but that doesn't mean its a smart thing to do and I'll feel no sympathy for the guy who gets his *** handed to him after doing so.

So even though I can legally toss an unloaded pistol on my passenger seat, odds are I'm kissing asphalt if I get pulled over regardless of the law. So the smart thing to do would be to place it in a locked container. Just my 2 cents.

jfrancis56
02-24-2011, 8:10 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163082

I was detained by BP for 3+ hours and NO I would NOT care to elaborate... other than you have no rights when the cameras and voice recorders are off and LEOs have you cuffed and they want to search your property even if they have NO Probable Cause they dont give a **** about your rights and they will trample them... just make sure that it isnt any easier for them. It also makes them look like ******** when they destroy your property w/ no PC only to have to let you go with an apology.

Well if you were detained by BP (assuming at or near a border checkpoint or crossing) the you must realize that no, you actually do not have any 4th Amendment rights, and PC or even the lesser "reasonable suspicion" standard do not apply.

At border checkpoints (crossings, airports, etc), your 4th Amendment rights do not exist. BP can detain you, search your car, trunk, etc.., without a warrant, PC, or even a reasonable suspicion.

jfrancis56
02-24-2011, 8:20 PM
Right but the whole point of this thread is how to not get arrested. Just because it is legal to do something, doesn't mean it is a good idea, case in point open carry. Sure you can legally OC, then get belligerent with an officer and give him the finger as you storm off, but that doesn't mean its a smart thing to do and I'll feel no sympathy for the guy who gets his *** handed to him after doing so.

So even though I can legally toss an unloaded pistol on my passenger seat, odds are I'm kissing asphalt if I get pulled over regardless of the law. So the smart thing to do would be to place it in a locked container. Just my 2 cents.

Your right on point. People dont seem to realize (except those of us with law degrees) that the your remedies against an unlawful arrest or search (exclusionary rule, fruit of the poisonous tree, etc) are only applicable after you have already been arrested.

Just because you can legally OC, doesnt mean that its always a good idea to do it. Why draw the attention to yourself? If a LE Officer thinks you look suspicious, they are going to engage you, and trying to tell them "No officer, Im excercising my Constitutional rights (even though the 2nd Amendment doesnt apply to the states, although the recent SCOTUS case held that it may), you cant arrest me" is not going to help you. If they want to arrest you, they will, and therefore your remedy only lies after the fact.

Walking around, trying to prove a point by carrying a gun because its your "right" is fine and dandy, but be reasonable about it. There is zero point to carrying your Glock OC while standing in line at McDonalds. Your just making everyone nervous who doesnt care about guns, and drawing unneccessary attention to yourself.

If you really want freedom to carry a gun, move to Arizona.

oaklander
02-28-2011, 3:22 PM
It is a LOT better than it used to be.

1) a few years ago - you could not even GET EBR's in this state.

2) a few years ago - there were NO shall issue CCWs in CA (there are now in some counties, with more on the way).

Those are just examples. . .

This stuff is the result of work that people on this forum (and certain others) have done. Stick around and get involved. It's a major movement now - with thousands of people working in every county of the state to change these stupid laws - AND WE ARE WINNING.

It fing turns my gut, that their has to be 8 pages of discussion, on a rifle to figure out whats legal and whats not. For godsake, I hate this state. Everyone is asking about "evil features" and flash suppresor, mag buttons, their are states you can own full auto, and have them SUPPRESSED! We dont have the faintest idea of what it means to be free anymore.

oaklander
03-04-2011, 12:19 PM
Agreed - but don't let that give you a sense of false security. I know of people who were mistakenly arrested for mere possession of an off-list stripped receiver.

Until LE gets better training from the DOJ, we will see this kind of stuff.

I had a question...if you want to be extra cautious about your AR, can you just remove the upper off of the lower and transport it that way without having to worry about any LEO giving you a hard time? Because technically, in that configuration, it is no longer a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle.

Thanks.

oaklander
03-08-2011, 1:30 PM
We all go back and forth on that. I really do not have a good answer. . . although I tend towards the "no" answer. . .

See, I've never been asked (and in my younger days, I got pulled over a lot). So I have no direct experience, and I don't generally give advice unless it's something I am SURE about.

I think the main thing is to not even "get" on LE's RADAR. The best way to do that is to NOT have gun stickers on your vehicle, in this state. It's also good to look like a "normal" citizen (whatever THOSE are).

:D

Of course, I'm one to talk!!! I have tattoos, a shaved head, and drive a 48 year old car with LOUD Flowmasters.

Quick questions. I'm 18, right about to purchase an AR.

Is there any time when you should be declaring you do have a firearm in the vehicle?

Or do you just remain silent on the firearms topic, and if it gets to it, shut the **** up and say you do not consent to a search and would like to remain silent?

KOTU
03-08-2011, 5:45 PM
Quick questions. I'm 18, right about to purchase an AR.

Is there any time when you should be declaring you do have a firearm in the vehicle?

Or do you just remain silent on the firearms topic, and if it gets to it, shut the **** up and say you do not consent to a search and would like to remain silent?
just me personally, (not an expert by ANYONE's definition), if i get pulled over while transporting a OLL i am going to be polite, silent, answer his questions to the very MINIMUM, and if he asks if there are weapons, say yes. my undertanding of the rule to transport weapons is that they have to be in a locked container, not ready to fire. aka unload, in a locked container. ( a locked container is not the center console, or the glovebox) hope that helps

oaklander
03-08-2011, 6:13 PM
Yes - although I am fairly certain that you are not required to answer any questions. . .

I could be wrong, however. . .

just me personally, (not an expert by ANYONE's definition), if i get pulled over while transporting a OLL i am going to be polite, silent, answer his questions to the very MINIMUM, and if he asks if there are weapons, say yes. my undertanding of the rule to transport weapons is that they have to be in a locked container, not ready to fire. aka unload, in a locked container. ( a locked container is not the center console, or the glovebox) hope that helps

KOTU
03-09-2011, 12:38 PM
Yes - although I am fairly certain that you are not required to answer any questions. . .

I could be wrong, however. . .

yeah i guess you could always plead the 5th, and refuse searches also, but my experience's with LEO's is that they have too much pride and power, and any resistance to them will only bring more trouble, so as long as i dont have anything illegal, im not going to give an LEO an opportunity to harass me. just my opinion

East County
03-09-2011, 5:04 PM
I like to read all these posts and enjoy them, even the LEO bashing. I of course understand some of the feelings even if most are not the norm. I've been a LEO since the 80's and shooting much longer. I can honestly tell you I've done far more educating folks about gun laws when they are in violation then arresting them. I can only speak for myself when I say that if you're honest with an LEO about what you're legally carrying, ie guns, things will go much better. Yes, LEO's do make mistakes on what is legal and what's illegal, but hopefully things will be handled professionally and figured out before anyone gets arrested. In my area officers are told NOT to make physical arrests for possession of illegal AW's. If we find an AW and there is a question about if its legal or not, the weapon is sent to the lab where it is looked at by a AW expert in the most current laws. Yes the weapon may be taken for a short time but if legal it's returned. If it's an OLL then it's legal in my book, go on your way. Most departments at least have an a "gun" person who can explain the laws to the officer who may not be as knowledgeable on the subject. Now if I find some dirtbag with and AW he stole from a home he broke into, well all bets are off at that time! Most officers I know are in favor of gun rights, no matter what the Chief;s may say.

Although I still don't see how all the OC guys are helping much. These guys come thru our city once once in a while scaring the crap out of the general public and wasting our time playing the game of checking to make sure the gun is unloaded. All the time video taping the incident hoping some young cop demands ID or pulls the tape covering the S/N off their gun so they can sue and get some free money from these cities who can't even afford to pay their employees! Just my 2 cents.

oaklander
03-09-2011, 5:30 PM
I agree with everything you just said.

FOLKS - let's not make this an "us versus them" thing.

I know I sometimes do that myself - anyone with google can find the posts - but the truth is that I come from an LE family (my uncle was a Sheriff in North Georgia for years) - and I never want us to be the type of community that excludes people simply because they are trying to do a job.

It's not fair, and I have a BIG issue with things that are not fair.

I like to read all these posts and enjoy them, even the LEO bashing. I of course understand some of the feelings even if most are not the norm. I've been a LEO since the 80's and shooting much longer. I can honestly tell you I've done far more educating folks about guns laws when they are in violation then arresting them. I can only speak for myself when I say that if you're honest with an LEO about what you're legally carrying, ie guns, things will go much better. Yes, LEO's do make mistakes on what is legal and what's illegal, but hopefully things will be handled professionally and figured out before anyone gets arrested. In my area officers are told NOT to make physical arrests for possession of illegal AW's. If we find an AW and there is a question about if its legal or not, the weapon is sent to the lab where it is looked at by a AW expert in the most current laws. Yes the weapon may be taken for a short time but if legal it's returned. Most departments at least have an a "gun" person who can explain the laws to the officer who may not be as knowledgeable on the subject. Now if I find some dirtbag with and AW he stole from a home he broke into, well all bets are off at that time! Most officers I know are in favor of gun rights, no matter what the Chief;s may say.

Although I still don't see how all the OC guys are helping much. These guys come thru our city once once in a while scaring the crap out of the general public and wasting our time playing the game of checking to make sure the gun is unloaded. All the time video taping the incident hoping some young cop demands ID or pulls the tape covering the S/N off their gun so they can sue and get some free money from these cities who can't even afford to pay their employees! Just my 2 cents.

n6vmo
03-10-2011, 11:49 AM
This is the general rule:

1) Everything needs to be unloaded

2) Everything needs to be in a locked "container." An SUV is not a locked container, but a car trunk is.

3) If you don't drive though any GFSZ, then the rifles don't have to be in a locked container. But the pistols still do, no matter what.

It's safer to start with the assumption that everything must be unloaded and in a locked container, then adjust as needed.

x2

I drive a pickup, no trunk. So, all my weapons are in locked containers during transport. Heck, I put a lock through the plastic ammo carrying cases too.

You also never know when you'll be pulled over by LE and happen to be in a GFSZ. If your weapons are not locked then, I believe you can be up the creek.

Therefore, lock'em up during any transport, it is not that hard. This way, your travels with weapons are without question.

oaklander
03-20-2011, 3:38 PM
Please google "calguns wiki" before you pick up your semi automatic rifle (it's not an "assault" anything).

We are super happy you are joining the ranks of folks who own "off list lowers" in California - but please understand the law and history of what you are doing before you pick up your rifle.

The laws are tricky and even making one small change to your rifle could make merely touching it a crime.

It's that serious and that's why this thread is here!

I `m new here. What does "OLL" stand for? Frim what I read its seems like something to do with AK`s or assult weapons. I`m getting an ak47 in a couple days when the 10 hold is over i`m thinking its a good idea to know what this means. Thanks Steve



Via Android. Excuse brevity.

chuck1024
04-18-2011, 9:14 PM
Does installing a bullet button make it legal to build a rifle in CA today with a newly registered stripped OLL and a pre ban AR15 disassembled rifle kit?

The flow chart doesn't mention anything about pre or post ban, and it seems like pre ban features are allowable, so long as there is a fixed magazine with 10 or fewer rounds.

Am I missing a big no-no here?

Thanks! Just got my first paperweight, but it won't do that for long!

ke6guj
04-18-2011, 9:31 PM
pre-ban and post-ban are terms that normally refer to the federal AW ban, not the CA AW ban. Just follow the flowchart and it will tell you what you can and can't have on your OLL.

oaklander
04-18-2011, 11:08 PM
Yes - I agree with "K" here. Please do some research on the legal climate before you build up your rifle. The fact that the "pre-post" ban issue was part of a federal law that sunsetted SEVEN years ago, and only had limited application in this state (due to what was essentially "local preemption"), means that you still have some learning to do.

Start with the flowchart, then the Calguns Wiki. Google the phrases that you don't understand. The law in CA is very complex and often makes no sense at all. So you REALLY need to learn it.

You can PM me if you want to talk. I can kind of explain the basics for you. It won't be legal advice, but as long as you understand that - I'm willing to educate you.

NOW - you might wonder why I would even do this - since it seems like I'm pretty busy (I am). It's a lot easier for us to educate you on the law, than it is for us to mount a defense if you make even an innocent mistake in the way that you configure your rifle.

This offer stands for anyone. I may not be able to talk to you "quick" - but I am always happy to talk to people who need to understand where to find the law, etc. . .

k

Does installing a bullet button make it legal to build a rifle in CA today with a newly registered stripped OLL and a pre ban AR15 disassembled rifle kit?

The flow chart doesn't mention anything about pre or post ban, and it seems like pre ban features are allowable, so long as there is a fixed magazine with 10 or fewer rounds.

Am I missing a big no-no here?

Thanks! Just got my first paperweight, but it won't do that for long!

chuck1024
04-19-2011, 12:28 AM
I appreciate the kind offer. I'm doing plenty of research, but I'm not done yet. I wanted to confirm what I think I've mustered so far. I also don't want to waste your time.

My understanding is that for a 5.56mm OLL rifle to not be illegal it must be longer than 30", not fully automatic, not .50BMG, and must have a fixed magazine not capable of holding more than 10 rounds, which is accomplished through a bullet button. Based on the flowchart.

I guess what confuses me is the whole, more than one evil features stuff I've read about, but I think that has to do with using hi-cap magazines--not as sure since it's not something that interests me much. 10 rounds and a bullet button is fine.

Chris M
04-19-2011, 7:25 AM
I appreciate the kind offer. I'm doing plenty of research, but I'm not done yet. I wanted to confirm what I think I've mustered so far. I also don't want to waste your time.

My understanding is that for a 5.56mm OLL rifle to not be illegal it must be longer than 30", not fully automatic, not .50BMG, and must have a fixed magazine not capable of holding more than 10 rounds, which is accomplished through a bullet button. Based on the flowchart.

I guess what confuses me is the whole, more than one evil features stuff I've read about, but I think that has to do with using hi-cap magazines--not as sure since it's not something that interests me much. 10 rounds and a bullet button is fine.

Not all OLL rifles "must have a fixed magazine". If the rifle is 'featureless' - no pistol grip, no forward grip, no flash hider, etc - then you can have a standard magazine release. Also, in this scenario, if you happen to have any 30 round magazines, you are OK to use them too.

A Bullet Button (Magazine Lock) comes into play when you add 'evil features'. As soon as you add that pistol grip or flash hider, etc., you now need to have a mag-lock, and you are restricted to magazines of 10 rounds or less. Also, just for clarification, an 11+ round magazine is not an 'evil feature', and should absolutely never be inserted into a rifle with a mag-lock.

So, basically, whether or not to install a Bullet Button depends on how you want to build your rifle.

jbush
05-01-2011, 8:03 PM
I put this in another post where another member seemed to think all LEOs should know all the laws. I'll say this again, you never know what the LEO knows about OLLs, and you don't know what kind of day he's had before he pulls you over. While I don't think they are always out to get you, there is an uncertainty when you get pulled over and I have to believe that about 80% of the people that this officer stops lie to him about something so he's probably not going to believe to much of what I say. If in doubt he will get the weapon off the street and let the higher ups decide on the legality. (been there with my son on a transport of firearms issue, lucky for me a detective didn't feel any laws were broken and it only cost some impound fees). This can mean confiscating your gun, arresting you and or impounding your vehicle all in the line of doing his job. Who pays the cost has been ask several times in this post. You do, you hire the lawyer, you pay to get your car out of impound and whatever other costs are involved in defending yourself, or in most cases until they don't file charges, and release your stuff. Sueing the city???? I've read this one in posts about all the money there going to get. The city and LE agencies have lawyers to fight these cases, and if you could get it to court, asking a jury of taxpayers to give you their city tax money is tough, especially since most of them have little or no knowledge of gun laws and think your OLL looks like an assault weapon. Why not follow ithe common sense rules laid out in this post, carry your paperwork and avoid the problem. I like to choose my battles, arguing with a LEO on the street over gun legalities isn't a battle I want to be involved in.

AirborneStranger
05-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Is there an archive or thread that discusses all the prosecutions of OLL's? I am still nervous about taking my OLL to a public range, so far I have only taken it out into the desert (which is 10x more fun btw).

East County
05-08-2011, 12:42 AM
Well we had the open carry group come through our city a couple months back playing their games. Besides wasting many of my offices times, it sure scared the hell out of the women and kids in the area of the well known coffee shop. A couple weeks ago I was asked to train several officers on how to handle this. They ask me because I;m the department "Gun Guy". I explained the California laws they need to know when dealing with these types.

I had some time left over so I trained them on AW laws. They now know what OLL's are, bullet buttons, and the rest of all the black bad guns. Most of the officers really had no idea in this area but now there will be at least 15 cops educated in OLL's in the San Diego area that won't mess with legal AR type weapons. Just try to be cool and try to explain to the officer why your gun is legal. Don;t lie, Don't yell at him and make him feel you may become combative. Just be a good responsible gun opener and we all can focus on the bad guys together!

rodeoflyer
05-08-2011, 8:35 AM
Well we had the open carry group come through our city a couple months back EXCERSIZING THEIR RIGHT. Besides wasting many of my offices times, it sure scared the hell out of the women and kids in the area of the well known coffee shop. A couple weeks ago I was asked to train several officers on how to handle this. They ask me because I;m the department "Gun Guy". I explained the California laws they need to know when dealing with these types.

I had some time left over so I trained them on AW laws. They now know what OLL's are, bullet buttons, and the rest of all the black bad guns. Most of the officers really had no idea in this area but now there will be at least 15 cops educated in OLL's in the San Diego area that won't mess with legal AR type weapons. Just try to be cool and try to explain to the officer why your gun is legal. Don;t lie, Don't yell at him and make him feel you may become combative. Just be a good responsible gun opener and we all can focus on the bad guys together!

Fixed it for you.

I appreciate you being the "gun guy" and educating fellow officers. :thumbsup:

Pokerking
05-26-2011, 12:53 PM
I just found this thread (and others) after a recent experience that I would like to share, it touches on many of the topics I have read up to this point.

I was leaving My local range (On-Target) about a month ago when I was quickly pulled over by LE. In my brand new truck with nothing broken etc. he gets to my window and says 'do you know why I pulled you over?" clearly not wanting to incriminate myself I say "No Officer" (although I did have no idea why I'd barely driven 500 feet).

He says he saw me cut off a car turning out of the driveway, I said "OK I'm very sorry I didn't see another car, what did I do wrong?" He then jumps right to the topic "I" feel he pulled me over for.

"Do you have any weapons, guns, knives in your vehicle?" Never wanting to lie and knowing he just saw me pull out of On-Target, I said "yes I do I was just at the range" He the said he wanted to complete an inspection of the weapons and I had no choice now that I had told him I had them.

I unlocked my tonneau cover and told him what to expect when I opened it. 2 locked cases on the left with my weapons and one locked case on the right with Ammo and Magazines. He said thank you and please open the lid.

I then unlocked the cases for him to inspect, he found 1- Mini 14 - 1- winchester lever action 30-30 and 2 pistols. all unloaded and no magazines in the same cases.

He then put pressure on me to search the rest of my truck to which I politely said No and that I was being fully cooperative and why is he making more out of this stop?

He went on to try and tell me he had all the rights and he could arrest me right now if he wanted to? I didn't know why, but still told him no to searching my truck, he told me he was "thinking" of arresting me and then put me in the back of his patrol car. I was like WTF. he never handcuffed me. then he stood on the side of the road for 15 minutes on his walkie talkie till he came back and let me out.

He told me all my guns were registered (which I already knew) and that he appreciated me telling him that I had them in my possession and to have a nice day.

Seriously!!! about an hour on the side of the road, 15 in the back of the LE car and he just says have a nice day.

Clearly he was looking to bust someone with an illegal or unregistered or stored improperly while driving gun/guns right outside the range exit.

But I found although it was a hassle, being honest, having everything legal and transporting them under the correct methods clearly kept me out of trouble.

Just thought I would share for what it's worth.

Librarian
05-26-2011, 1:05 PM
It's Clean Up Day in this thread. A few posts will disappear... Like, 150.

And "OLL" is "Off List Lower", a lower receiver for an AR or AK-type rifle that is NOT listed in either the original Roberti-Roos law nor in the later Kasler lawsuit opinion.

oaklander
05-26-2011, 7:55 PM
Thanks L!!!!!

It's Clean Up Day in this thread. A few posts will disappear... Like, 150.

And "OLL" is "Off List Lower", a lower receiver for an AR or AK-type rifle that is NOT listed in either the original Roberti-Roos law nor in the later Kasler lawsuit opinion.

its mcgavin son
05-28-2011, 2:09 PM
Where can I find an up to date, substantial GFSZ map?

ke6guj
05-28-2011, 2:23 PM
you can't. There isn't one.

marcus_bervus
06-08-2011, 5:47 PM
is there a need for a rebuild or converted 10/30 round magazine base plate to be glued or riveted in order to be CA legal?

AmbientR
06-13-2011, 4:00 PM
is there a need for a rebuild or converted 10/30 round magazine base plate to be glued or riveted in order to be CA legal?

I'm wondering this too, some people say yes, but others say its one of those "technically, no since its a rebuild kit once its taken apart.." but it all depends on how the LEO who is inspecting feels about it. Also, It can probably be defended in court, but it may be more hassle than its worth.

Can anyone add insight please?

oaklander
06-13-2011, 10:26 PM
The "opinion" is that the mags should be glued/rivted/welded, etc. in such a way as to not be "convertible" back to more than 10 rounds. . .

Folks - don't argue with me on this - just do it. You will like me when you have to defend your mag in court.

ALSO - IF you can jam an 11th round in there - it's still a high-cap - EVEN if the gun won't strip the round. Please do not argue with me on that, either - just make you you can't jam an 11th round in there.

I know these things because I am usually the first person who gets "the phone call" from folks who have been arrested. I can't speak to the above issues, for privacy reasons - BUT - I can tell you that IF there's a way that something "can" be found "illegal" - it will. . .

I'm wondering this too, some people say yes, but others say its one of those "technically, no since its a rebuild kit once its taken apart.." but it all depends on how the LEO who is inspecting feels about it. Also, It can probably be defended in court, but it may be more hassle than its worth.

Can anyone add insight please?

RPinCA
06-17-2011, 9:37 AM
Great thread! I'd like to add another thought: Just because you aren't paranoid, DOES NOT mean no one is watching!

One day at the range, I saw a fellow shooting one-handed cloverleafs with a 1911. I struck up a conversation with him, call him "Clyde", and found him quite personable as well as skillful. We chatted for 20 minutes or so, the usual stuff at the range.

I came home and told the story to my wife, who works for CA DOJ. She looked at me oddly, and asked what Clyde looked like. When I described him, and given his unique name, she was just about certain she knew him. After she came home from work the next day, she said "Yes, that was the same Clyde who works six doors down from me. He enjoyed meeting you."

There's no way anyone would have known Clyde was a DOJI. I never hesitated when he asked if he could check out my pre-ban HK-94.

Gloakstah
06-21-2011, 8:18 PM
yeah man thanks for the info got to be smart out in the jungle.:cool:

xXRifleManXx
06-21-2011, 11:34 PM
Hey guys some great info. I picked up a dsa sa58 10 round mag with the mag release secured with a allen set screw is this legal?

Mother Russia
06-23-2011, 12:52 PM
I get pulled over by cops on a weekly basis for having bullet holes in my car.

advocatusdiaboli
06-23-2011, 1:54 PM
Here's a graphic for those who think visually:

http://i44.tinypic.com/33w36o5.jpg

I just saw this (inexplicable I know but there it is). Right on point.

Oceanbob
06-30-2011, 7:09 AM
wow, this is an interesting thread.
i don't live in californistan.
but, in my own personal experience.
just name, rank, and serial number attitude will get you searched and possibly arrested until everything is sorted out.
i would suggest having a solid "legal" explanation for any mods to your guns.
before leo speaks to you, they go into cop mode, they're looking and 'listening' for illegalities!
never discuss anything illegal with a cop. if he asks if your homebuilt ar is a aw. state no, this is an ar-replica or ar-style rifle that is legal to own. if wants more details than that. you'd better have your i's dotted and t's crossed. but above all be courteous and friendly. bad attitude will make leo want to bust you.

interesting, that you don't have to lock up your long arms for transport.
here all firearms must be locked in 'approved' carry cases, in the locked truck of car, if in truck must be out of sight. ammo must also be in locked case and separate from gun.
99.9% of why aw's have such a bad rap is drug dealing gang bangers wanting to shoot each other over drug turf. and we all know that "the law is no deterent for outlaws!" i just wish someone could explain that to the the politicians.

What State are you from?..We can carry in the TRUNK with ammo, no case. (unloaded of course)

We carry an AW flow chart with us and other paperwork to inform an under-educated Police officer. If it gets weird we ask for his Supervisor.

al8550
07-26-2011, 4:55 AM
Excellent advice and to your point of DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, I suggest if you (people reading this thread) haven't watched this video on YouTube (Don't Talk to Police) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc), take 45 minutes out of your life and watch it. NOW!

Good point

dirty_530
07-29-2011, 3:41 PM
I am new to cal guns, and this is seriously the best thread on the this forum. All I wanted to say is, thank you to everyone who contributed, this thread truely is invalueable. Again a very sincere thank you to all of you!

speedshot143
07-31-2011, 11:00 PM
this is a great topic..love calguns! learn new thing everyday.

NYsteveZ
08-01-2011, 6:15 PM
Great thread, and just my two cents....Magazines and range membership cards have apparently made LEO suspicious on a few members here. All too often I see guys with gun racks in their pick ups, or NRA stickers on their bumpers. I support the NRA and Im a combat Veteran, but this thread has me re-thinking displaying my pride.

Ill keep my guns and money, you can keep the "CHANGE"

shaunbowler@yahoo.com
08-07-2011, 5:14 PM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant.. it is.
If you have a open carry, unloaded weapon, what is the "distance" between a weapon and ammo?
Back/ Front pockets?
Gym Bag?
SB

SmellOfCordite
08-12-2011, 9:06 PM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant.. it is.
If you have a open carry, unloaded weapon, what is the "distance" between a weapon and ammo?
Back/ Front pockets?
Gym Bag?
SB

Distance is not in the mag well or cylinder I do believe... To my knowledge there is no ruling on distance besides not being physically in the firearm itself. But then again this is a thread about OLL's and not UOC.

rifle man
09-26-2011, 1:18 AM
Any new news on the bullet botton ?

oaklander
09-26-2011, 1:37 AM
Any new news on the bullet botton ?

No, perfectly legal under law as written. I should know ;-)

BUT please use only 10 round (or less) magazines!

I can tell you that pretty much EVERY firearms wholesaler is now shipping BB equiped firearms to CA (when required). I also understand that the DOJ itself has admitted (I forget how) that these ARE LEGAL.

We have said this for years, BTW. The law is clear that these are legal in CA.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

oaklander
09-26-2011, 1:40 AM
Great thread, and just my two cents....Magazines and range membership cards have apparently made LEO suspicious on a few members here. All too often I see guys with gun racks in their pick ups, or NRA stickers on their bumpers. I support the NRA and Im a combat Veteran, but this thread has me re-thinking displaying my pride.

Ill keep my guns and money, you can keep the "CHANGE"

Yes, MOST LE folks are supportive of our rights. But there are still some who have not been adequately trained. As always, discretion is the better part of valor.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

63W
10-05-2011, 2:50 PM
in the part of PRK i live in the only reason they need to mess with u when u get pulled over is the Base Decal on ur fount window. i have 3 mil stickers my USAR my OIF and my Base decal. i could speculate the reasons that LEO's dont like Mil. all day! but that not Y where here:)

American Insurgent
10-05-2011, 3:03 PM
[/QUOTE]3) MAKE SURE YOUR OLL IS LEGAL.

Read the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf). Understand it. Do not configure your rifle in a way that is illegal.

Again, these are all common sense, but I think that some new gun owners are so excited about getting their first OLL that they kind of lose sight of common sense.[/QUOTE]

Flow chart says all DPMS lowers are illegal in cali, Yet a couple say this is not true. What is your ¢2 on this??

Japsican
10-07-2011, 11:11 AM
Hey Everyone, I haven't been on CGN for a while and haven't been keeping up with the OLL/Bullet button situation, but I'm wondering if things are starting to settle down a bit? Are OLL's so common now that LEO is a little more up to speed on OLL's and BB's? I know we all need to follow the flow chart and I know there'll always be that one LEO that thinks a legally configured OLL is and AW, but I'm hoping I can be a little less paranoid these days. The market has flooded with legally configured rifles utilizing BB's, and with big retailers such as Turners making them available to the public, how could OLL's not be viewed as the norm by LEO?

oaklander
10-07-2011, 2:43 PM
Hey Everyone, I haven't been on CGN for a while and haven't been keeping up with the OLL/Bullet button situation, but I'm wondering if things are starting to settle down a bit? Are OLL's so common now that LEO is a little more up to speed on OLL's and BB's? I know we all need to follow the flow chart and I know there'll always be that one LEO that thinks a legally configured OLL is and AW, but I'm hoping I can be a little less paranoid these days. The market has flooded with legally configured rifles utilizing BB's, and with big retailers such as Turners making them available to the public, how could OLL's not be viewed as the norm by LEO?

It still depends on the local agency.

What I am seeing now are arrests for IMPROPERLY CONFIGURED OLL's. I am seeing less arrests for OLL's.

I have seen ZERO successful felony prosecutions for possession of a legally configured OLL (there is no crime there, so impossible to prosecute). HOWEVER, there are close calls because people have not used good defense lawyers, and/or have not properly triangulated with CGF.

There are also cases where folks plead out, and lose their gun rights for something that is simply NOT A CRIME.

ALSO - most arrests now are NOT related to traffic stops. They tend to be cases where LE comes to a house for "reason x" and then finds rifles that are not properly configured. We are doing outreach with LE, and we are hoping to continue our educational efforts.

The CA DOJ IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS STATE OF AFFAIRS. They are letting down rank and file LE by not properly promulgating appropriate training materials. As far as I know, the CA BOF website still contains information that is factually and legally wrong. If they were a law firm, this would be cause for sanctions from the Bar. It is that bad.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

jsr3313
10-31-2011, 5:00 PM
WOW...what a thread. I have read most of it...I'm just confused about one thing...

OLL...off list lower? What exactly does that mean?

I recently built an AR, and have been to the range a few times. However, just to be safe, even though I transport with a MAGVAULT (made by gunvault) inserted in the magwell, that I need to invest in some 10rd mags to be legal at the range.

Sadly, I did not realize that there is so much that makes these "illegal." I do have the "pistol grip" and the aforementioned rad-lock....damn...LOL

Again, thanks for the plethora of information, much appreciated.

oaklander
11-01-2011, 10:36 PM
WOW...what a thread. I have read most of it...I'm just confused about one thing...

OLL...off list lower? What exactly does that mean?

I recently built an AR, and have been to the range a few times. However, just to be safe, even though I transport with a MAGVAULT (made by gunvault) inserted in the magwell, that I need to invest in some 10rd mags to be legal at the range.

Sadly, I did not realize that there is so much that makes these "illegal." I do have the "pistol grip" and the aforementioned rad-lock....damn...LOL

Again, thanks for the plethora of information, much appreciated.

Thank you! Many of us have worked long and hard to make this happen. The key is realizing:

1) these firearms are 100 percent legal, and:

2) some people do not know that yet.

OFF-LIST means it is not on the banned-by-name list. Also - please remember that legal means legal everywhere! The big issue with rifles that use bullet-buttons (vs featureless), is that folks seem to forget that inserting anything larger than a 10 round magazine means that you both have manufactured AND possess an AW.

Crap - yet another acronym!

;-)


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

jsr3313
11-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.

ke6guj
11-23-2011, 11:16 AM
Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.

correct, you if you have a fixed-mag, it can't be over 10-rounds lest it be considered an AW.

Why? Because they wanted to ban those evil cheap SKS's with the banana-clips.

the fact that you could go featureless and run a large-cap mag either didn't cross their mind or they didn't want to ban your average mini-14 or M1a. that way they could claim that they were just going after the EBRs, not the pretty wood ones.

Mamluke
11-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.

Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.

x7JSTRawEPE


.....

ke6guj
11-23-2011, 11:25 AM
Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.


really? Feinstein took on hi-cap mags due to a bank robbery in 1997?

the hi-cap ban started in 1994, 2+ years BEFORE the N. Hollywood bank robbery.

Mamluke
11-23-2011, 11:29 AM
really? Feinstein took on hi-cap mags due to a bank robbery in 1997?

the hi-cap ban started in 1994, 2+ years BEFORE the N. Hollywood bank robbery.

..... errr.... how come everyone points to that incident as a turning point in Ca. gun laws then?!!! ... :confused:

...........

ke6guj
11-23-2011, 11:34 AM
..... errr.... how come everyone points to that incident as a turning point in Ca. gun laws then?!!! ... :confused:

...........

I didn't say anything about CA law. Feinstein dealt with federal laws, not CA laws.

And CA's assault on guns started way before that bank robbery. CA's first AW ban was in 1989.

jsr3313
11-23-2011, 12:00 PM
correct, you if you have a fixed-mag, it can't be over 10-rounds lest it be considered an AW.

Why? Because they wanted to ban those evil cheap SKS's with the banana-clips.

the fact that you could go featureless and run a large-cap mag either didn't cross their mind or they didn't want to ban your average mini-14 or M1a. that way they could claim that they were just going after the EBRs, not the pretty wood ones.

Ok...so...what defines "featureless?" No pistol grip? I still have a shoulder stock, my barrel is still 16"+, it's still longer than 30" OAL. I can have a mini-14 with full cap mags, no prob? But not an "AR" that's not a "AW?" WTF? BS!?! I hate this stupid state sometimes

ke6guj
11-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Ok...so...what defines "featureless?" No pistol grip?
its covvered in the flowchart, but in your case, "YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip", there's 3 evil features right there.

I still have a shoulder stock, my barrel is still 16"+, it's still longer than 30" OAL. I can have a mini-14 with full cap mags, no prob? But not an "AR" that's not a "AW?" WTF? BS!?! I hate this stupid state sometimesset up the AR to be featureless like the mini-14 and you can use large-cap mags once you remove the maglock.

jsr3313
12-02-2011, 10:28 PM
Stupid state. I mean why would you build/use an AR without some sort of compensator? Is the YHM Phantom a flash hider/supressor or whatever you want to call it. I have yet to see any AR (new or old) without some sort of "birdcage" on the end. How is that an "evil" feature?

Does the gov't really expect us to build/use this gun as a traditional rifle? Geez. Ah
well.

Cyc Wid It
12-02-2011, 10:57 PM
Flash hiders aren't the same as compensators.

ke6guj
12-02-2011, 11:10 PM
Does the gov't really expect us to build/use this gun as a traditional rifle? Geez. Ah
well.they didn't expect us to build/use these guns at all. they figured that they had banned them, but luckily for us, they don't know how to properly write a comprehensive ban.

frank1947
12-07-2011, 5:11 PM
After reading oaklanders post you got me scared to bring a gun to California now I have to find out what OLL is

SURVIVOR619
12-19-2011, 1:02 PM
"Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines should never be able to loosen on their own or be unloosened by hand, so lockwashers and some Locktite™ are useful – especially since the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached! Placement of some adhesive inside the magazine well is also helpful."
Copied from:
M E M O R A N D U M
California Assault Weapons Laws: Legal Issues
Involving “Off-list” AR-type & AK-type Rifles
TO: California Public Defenders & Law Enforcement Personnel
FROM: William M. Wiese Jr., Calguns.Net DATE: April 31, 2006

Referring to the underlined sentence, does this mean one is not allowed to take their fixed magazine, fully compliant centerfire rifle to a range and use a tool to detatch the magazine in order to reload because a pistol grip remains attached? :confused:

Chris M
12-19-2011, 1:11 PM
"Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines should never be able to loosen on their own or be unloosened by hand, so lockwashers and some Locktite™ are useful – especially since the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached! Placement of some adhesive inside the magazine well is also helpful."
Copied from:
M E M O R A N D U M
California Assault Weapons Laws: Legal Issues
Involving “Off-list” AR-type & AK-type Rifles
TO: California Public Defenders & Law Enforcement Personnel
FROM: William M. Wiese Jr., Calguns.Net DATE: April 31, 2006

Referring to the underlined sentence, does this mean one is not allowed to take their fixed magazine, fully compliant centerfire rifle to a range and use a tool to detatch the magazine in order to reload because a pistol grip remains attached? :confused:

If you're firearm is unable to accept a detachable magazine (you must use a tool to "disassemble" the firearm), then you're A-OK...unless the law has changed recently...

* "Disassemble" basically means using a tool to remove a permanent fixture - like a fixed magazine.

SURVIVOR619
12-19-2011, 1:17 PM
Thanks, that makes me feel better as I recall several trips to the range using my tool to disassemble the rifle in order to reassemble a refilled magazine.

I appreciate the response.

shortround1
12-19-2011, 2:58 PM
its covvered in the flowchart, but in your case, "YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip", there's 3 evil features right there.

set up the AR to be featureless like the mini-14 and you can use large-cap mags once you remove the maglock.


I imagine magazine laws still apply, so do not use normal capacity mags in your featureless rifle either unless you already LEGALLY own some.



Do not construe anything I say as legal advice. :D

ke6guj
12-19-2011, 3:15 PM
I imagine magazine laws still apply, so do not use normal capacity mags in your featureless rifle either unless you already LEGALLY own some.



Do not construe anything I say as legal advice. :D
AW laws for the most part are completely separate from magazine acquistion laws.

it would not be an AW violation to use large-cap detachable mags in your featureless rifle, even if you "ILLEGALLY" owned those mags.

knox-johnny
12-20-2011, 2:58 AM
http://www.webcam-steamate.com/cookies/35/b/happy.gif

While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. Although some states require police to inform the person of the intent to make the arrest and the cause for the arrest,[14] it is not always obvious when a detention becomes an arrest. After making an arrest, police may search a person, her belongings, and her immediate surroundings.

Whether an arrested person must identify herself may depend on the jurisdiction in which the arrest occurs. If a person is under arrest and police wish to question her, they are required to inform the person of her Fifth-Amendment right to remain silent by giving a Miranda warning. However, Miranda does not apply to biographical data necessary to complete booking.[15][16] It is not clear whether a “stop and identify” law could compel giving one’s name after being arrested, although some states have laws that specifically require an arrested person to give her name and other biographical information,[17] and some state courts[18][19] have held that refusal to give one’s name constitutes obstructing a public officer. As a practical matter, an arrested person who refused to give her name would have little chance of obtaining a prompt release.

Librarian
12-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Thanks, that makes me feel better as I recall several trips to the range using my tool to disassemble the rifle in order to reassemble a refilled magazine.

I appreciate the response.

The critical phrase in the bit you quoted is "Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines"; since the weapon WOULD be able to accept a detachable magazine while the nut/bolt contraption would be loosened or removed, having 'features' at the same time is a problem.

But magazine locks such as the bullet button always operate only with a tool; there is no intermediate state in normal operation. A properly installed magazine lock of that type modifies the weapon so any magazine inserted would require a tool to disassemble it from the gun.

SURVIVOR619
12-21-2011, 3:37 PM
Thank you, Librarian, for emphasizing the specific words I could not clearly decipher.

Best Regards,

Survivor619

Steelplate45
12-21-2011, 8:21 PM
My AR is an early 90's bushmaster pre-ban rifle. When the Cal AW registration law came up, I registered mine.

So, I have a standard pre-ban mag release and several legal 30 round mags. The upper is a plain varmint barrel with no flash hider.

Problem is, I just started looking for my old paperwork. So far, I can't find it.

Any advice on this?

Cyc Wid It
12-21-2011, 9:27 PM
You can ask the DOJ for a list of weapons registered in your name... might take a while.

Steelplate45
12-21-2011, 9:50 PM
I did some more digging, and found my docs from DOJ.

Will make some copies and keep them in my car and gun case.

Just in case I get pulled over by an LEO.

Silverone858
12-25-2011, 9:52 PM
First of all thank you for this post and for all the information you guys have collected and put to use to help people!
I am building a AR from a 80% lower and am doing alot of homework while I wait for my build party to happen. I was wondering what other paperwork I should maybe keep with me in case of leo questioning my lower.
I plan on a pistol grip, bb, 10 round blocked pmags, and comp.
If anyone could give advice or links to paperwork that is a must carry while transporting that would be great. Thank you in advance.
Edit- also people say there is no mandatory registration for a rifle built this way I think I also heard a pistol built from an 80% Receiver didn't have to be registered. I would like to know why or at least read about that in case I need to know.

jukeboxx13
01-02-2012, 9:35 PM
what is oll anyways??

RAAK_FJ
01-02-2012, 9:56 PM
OLL = Off List Lower

The Calguns ACRONYM thread (OLL, MMG, AM, etc.)!!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606


The Official OFF-LIST List is HERE!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34397

Austin316
01-12-2012, 12:41 PM
Ive read through the whole thread and i think i have a question that i have not seen an answer to. I recently bought a dual mag clamp for my WASR 10/63. It holds both of my 10/30 mags, and my question is, is this legal? Can i have 2 10 round mags attatched to each other? My clamp is the type where they are side by side, as compared to the other versions which one mag is upside down. Thanks

duggan
01-12-2012, 12:43 PM
You're G2G, it's two seperate round mags.

winnre
01-12-2012, 2:41 PM
Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.

.....


But NO ONE was hurt in that incident EXCEPT the bad guys. I say 30 round mags for everyone since the result in only bad guys getting killed!!!

ke6guj
01-12-2012, 4:30 PM
But NO ONE was hurt in that incident EXCEPT the bad guys. I say 30 round mags for everyone since the result in only bad guys getting killed!!!actually, multiple officeres and civilians were hurt during the shootout. I rcall that one officer was shot in the leg (shattered his femur IIRC) and he almost bled out.



wikipedia had this to say about it, In addition to the two perpetrators, eleven officers and seven civilians sustained injuries
wow, 18?!, I din't recall it being so many.

Silverone858
01-12-2012, 8:58 PM
Can anyone offer some help with this?
First of all thank you for this post and for all the information you guys have collected and put to use to help people!
I am building a AR from a 80% lower and am doing alot of homework while I wait for my build party to happen. I was wondering what other paperwork I should maybe keep with me in case of leo questioning my lower.
I plan on a pistol grip, bb, 10 round blocked pmags, and comp.
If anyone could give advice or links to paperwork that is a must carry while transporting that would be great. Thank you in advance.
Edit- also people say there is no mandatory registration for a rifle built this way I think I also heard a pistol built from an 80% Receiver didn't have to be registered. I would like to know why or at least read about that in case I need to know.

adrenalinejunkie
01-16-2012, 1:06 PM
Can anyone offer some help with this?

Well from what i've read, you should definitely carry the assault weapons semi auto rifle flow chart that's under the ads up top in the flowcharts section and a copy of your DROS if you can get it. Also I guess you should carry a copy of your rights. I don't know of any other paperwork that you'd have to carry and can't help with AR pistol registration. Hope this helps man.

dragunrider
01-21-2012, 8:47 AM
What's an OLL?

dragunrider
01-21-2012, 8:49 AM
Oh, ok, I got it. Off List Lower.

Chaos47
01-21-2012, 8:50 AM
Off List Lower. A receiver that is not banned by name.

Silverone858
01-21-2012, 1:22 PM
Thanks for the reply the other thing I was wondering about is that it is a 80% lower build and because I built it from 80% I don’t have to register it, as far as I have been told but I have no idea where to find information about 80% lower reciever builds.

Well from what i've read, you should definitely carry the assault weapons semi auto rifle flow chart that's under the ads up top in the flowcharts section and a copy of your DROS if you can get it. Also I guess you should carry a copy of your rights. I don't know of any other paperwork that you'd have to carry and can't help with AR pistol registration. Hope this helps man.

SlickNick
01-22-2012, 8:50 AM
thats some of the best advice too, i did exactly that. its amazing how many folks even at your local range or shooting spot have no clue what the laws are. educate as many people as you can as well as your self and the mistakes made will be lessened.

Great points as simple as they may seem.

I understand the excitement and wanting to rush right into it all, but take your time, and like I've said before, read, read read all that you can, this forum has so much knowledge on it, it's amazing. Buy your parts and keep reading while waiting for them to come in. In the DROS period, keep reading, understand the laws and WHY they are that way. Keep yourself protected. Print out the flow chart and other important defense documents and keep with your weapons at all times.

If there's one thing I learned when dealing with OLL is that it comes with a lot of responsibility, more than you would think at first.

Kalderis40
01-23-2012, 8:47 AM
From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks :)

adrenalinejunkie
01-23-2012, 4:41 PM
From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks :)

That seems like a good summary to me. Doesn't seem like you're missing anything.

gl0ckc0ma
01-23-2012, 5:15 PM
Probably a stupid question, but since a fixed magazine (10 rounds) makes a OLL with evil features legal, does this mean when I travel with the OLL in the trunk it has to have an empty mag attached?

Kodemonkey
01-23-2012, 5:29 PM
Probably a stupid question, but since a fixed magazine (10 rounds) makes a OLL with evil features legal, does this mean when I travel with the OLL in the trunk it has to have an empty mag attached?

No, but some people do it just as another step. If you have one in the magwell it's pretty easy to illustrate that it isn't detachable without a tool.

I have a 10 round (not a 10/20 or 10/30) mag that travels in my rifle on the way to and from the range. I specifically don't have a 10/20 or 10/30 in there because it can complicate matters if I cop knows his stuff and wants to point out that a 20 round mag is illegal in a bullet button equipped rifle. The only real way to show that it is a 10 round blocked mag is to load it. You can push the follower down with a pen or something to illustrate there is a block in there, but then could it possibly hold 11??? I just put the 10 rounder that came with my M&P 15 to make things simpler but it's not required.

m03
01-23-2012, 6:16 PM
From everything that I have read about OLL, I have gathered that it IS legal as long as :
1) the lower is not on the "list", i.e. legal to own in CA.
2) barrel length at least 16".
3) CAN have the pistol grip (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
4) CAN have a collapsible stock (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags).
5) Semi Auto only.
6) Flash Hider OK (with 16" Barrel and mag lock device, & 10 rnd mags)

Is there anything that I am missing?

Thanks :)

7) Over-all length of at least 30".

Kalderis40
01-23-2012, 7:04 PM
Thanks m03 for adding that! That's an important one...

7) Over-all length of at least 30".

ETA: Over-all length measured with stock fully collapsed (if collapsible stock).

Panchira!
01-24-2012, 10:54 AM
Better yet refer to the flow chart:

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Edit: Got the barrel length confused a bit haha. But the barrel needs to be 16" from bolt face to end of barrel or perminatly attached muzzle device. And OAL needs to be 30".

bigcalidave
01-24-2012, 10:56 AM
Also it measured from stock fully collapsed to END of barrel. NOT the muzzle device unless its perminatly attached ie pinned and welded.

Incorrect. No specification for permanently attached muzzle device in the OAL calculation.

Panchira!
01-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Ah yes your right about the OAL. but the barrel has to be 16" from bolt face to end of barrel or perminatly attached muzzle device. 1st bubble on the flow chart.

Edited above post so no one gets confused.

bjoernt
01-29-2012, 10:39 PM
Guy's you saved my day. I was reading all weekend CA gun laws to verify my purchase of a new Colt M4 CA Model and at the end I was more confused than before. Everything cleared up once I've read you flowchart and additional external infos under http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15

By the way, the dealer mentioned I've to show utility bills to proof of residency.
But I've read the FAQ on the doj website, stating it's necessary for buying a handgun and not for a rifle. Is the dealer just wrong ? I'm asking, because I'm living nearly 3 month here (few days to go) moved recently from good old Germany and joining firearm sports business.
I also want to take a security training in SOCAL area, can one of you guys recommend me a facility/business near Torrance ?

Alright, take care and keep up your good work. :clap: