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View Full Version : How often do you encounter AW on the job?


HotRails
05-19-2009, 9:44 PM
With all the hype regarding "assault rifles", I was wondering how often our Calguns members who are LEOs actually encounter assault rifles on suspects as opposed to handguns. This can include either possession or actually using them against LE / victims. A good friend of mine confiscated a FA Uzi only once in eight years on the force.

CaliTheKid
05-19-2009, 10:50 PM
Totally depends on your assignment. You can work Malibu for 20 years and never see one or work Compton and take a chopper (AK) every few weeks.

Saigon1965
05-19-2009, 10:51 PM
Topgun7 will pop in here and tell you -

bluestaterebel
05-19-2009, 11:24 PM
Mostly smaller handguns...380s, 25s, 9mms.. once in a while we will have a crime scene with 7.62x39 casings.....everyone always assumes AK but as you know, it could be anything, more than likely an SKS.

I dont recall seeing any 223 casings. Im sure it happens though. To answer your question, not often..

1911su16b870
05-20-2009, 8:58 AM
So far OTJ ZERO AW encountered in the public sector or on patrol.

trendar5
05-20-2009, 11:12 AM
Our agency bought numerous AW's in an undercover storefront sting operation. Most were brought in from Nevada. About 5-6 years ago, we were trying to buy an AR from a crook. No deal. He later used it in a gang murder. But in routine patrol, nope. I have not booked in/dealt with an AW myself in 14+ years.

Triad
05-20-2009, 11:49 AM
3 in my two years.

Jwood562
05-20-2009, 12:36 PM
a few.mostly on searches of homes and things like that but never a active shooter with an AW (God forbid). every officers worst nightmare is being over powered with firepower.

I remeber one crime seen where a guy had a full auto AK (or some sort of variation of). he was standing on a street corner and opend fire on someone/something (no person hit). the funny thing was we found a ton of casing s but could only account for the path of a few rounds. we were dumbfounded...until we looked up and saw all the holes in the 2nd and 3rd floor of a building. I guess he couldnt handle the muzzle climb of the full auto hahahaha

Ron-Solo
05-20-2009, 1:01 PM
Very few, and most of them had been stolen from their lawful owners. All were involved is some other felony crime and the fact they were assault weapons wasn't really a factor in anything.

Jonathan Doe
05-20-2009, 4:45 PM
I see assault weapons more than a few times at my office. I pretty much volunteer to take assault weapons cases, because I may be more familar with the issues. Out of all the AW cases, only twice I determined that the guns were not AW. I would say about 98% of the AW cases were actually determined to be AW's. Most AW were:

1. OLL AR type rifles with Prince 50 with the screw removed, not even backed out.
2. OLL AR type rifles with no magazine lock feature, but with regular magazine release.
3. OLL AR type rifles with pistol upper and collapsable stock, qualified for SBR and AW.
4. OLL AK type rifles with regular magazine release.
5. Unregistered Cat 1 and Cat 2 AW's.

Have never seen any rifle with MMG or other magazine lock devices.

Once I determined a SKS with 11 round capacity non AW, because I didn't see any modification.

Also, once I had an AK which double tapped, but did not classify it as a machine gun because it had worn out parts and didn't see any modification.

Overall, I think LEO's are doing good job recognizing actual AW's based on the firearms submitted to my office.

Fire in the Hole
05-20-2009, 5:28 PM
I know the answer exactly, from working LA, Barstow, Ventura, and Sonora; zero in 30 years.

SVT-40
05-20-2009, 8:40 PM
Very few working the street. All were related to improper carry issues. None used in actual crimes. Probably five to ten recovered serving narcotics search warrants across L.A. county.

Saigon1965
05-20-2009, 8:42 PM
How many cases in 2008 if you can divulge the info?

I see assault weapons more than a few times at my office. I pretty much volunteer to take assault weapons cases, because I may be more familar with the issues. Out of all the AW cases, only twice I determined that the guns were not AW. I would say about 98% of the AW cases were actually determined to be AW's. Most AW were:

1. OLL AR type rifles with Prince 50 with the screw removed, not even backed out.
2. OLL AR type rifles with no magazine lock feature, but with regular magazine release.
3. OLL AR type rifles with pistol upper and collapsable stock, qualified for SBR and AW.
4. OLL AK type rifles with regular magazine release.
5. Unregistered Cat 1 and Cat 2 AW's.

Have never seen any rifle with MMG or other magazine lock devices.

Once I determined a SKS with 11 round capacity non AW, because I didn't see any modification.

Also, once I had an AK which double tapped, but did not classify it as a machine gun because it had worn out parts and didn't see any modification.

Overall, I think LEO's are doing good job recognizing actual AW's based on the firearms submitted to my office.

SVT-40
05-20-2009, 10:16 PM
How many cases in 2008 if you can divulge the info?

Sorry, all were before December 2006 when I retired :thumbsup:

bluestaterebel
05-20-2009, 11:00 PM
I see assault weapons more than a few times at my office. I pretty much volunteer to take assault weapons cases, because I may be more familar with the issues. Out of all the AW cases, only twice I determined that the guns were not AW. I would say about 98% of the AW cases were actually determined to be AW's. Most AW were:

1. OLL AR type rifles with Prince 50 with the screw removed, not even backed out.
2. OLL AR type rifles with no magazine lock feature, but with regular magazine release.
3. OLL AR type rifles with pistol upper and collapsable stock, qualified for SBR and AW.
4. OLL AK type rifles with regular magazine release.
5. Unregistered Cat 1 and Cat 2 AW's.

Have never seen any rifle with MMG or other magazine lock devices.

Once I determined a SKS with 11 round capacity non AW, because I didn't see any modification.

Also, once I had an AK which double tapped, but did not classify it as a machine gun because it had worn out parts and didn't see any modification.

Overall, I think LEO's are doing good job recognizing actual AW's based on the firearms submitted to my office.

Hey Topgun7 do you work at the crime lab at Cal State LA?

Jonathan Doe
05-21-2009, 12:45 PM
How many cases in 2008 if you can divulge the info?

I don't keep atrack on my cases. So, I don't know how many cases were AW cases.

Yes, I am working at the new crime lab on Cal State LA campus.

bluestaterebel
05-21-2009, 12:48 PM
I don't keep atrack on my cases. So, I don't know how many cases were AW cases.

Yes, I am working at the new crime lab on Cal State LA campus.

Cool, I go up there all the time to get casings entered into NIBN, Have been to the gun room several times and all i can say is OMG:eek:

Jonathan Doe
05-21-2009, 1:29 PM
Cool, I go up there all the time to get casings entered into NIBN, Have been to the gun room several times and all i can say is OMG:eek:

Why don't you stop by one of these days and we will go to lunch. I know couple of good places to eat. Just come to my office and tell me your screen name.;)

socalsheepdog
05-21-2009, 1:43 PM
OC Deputy Sheriff Bradley Jay Riches encountered one on June 12. 1999.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/15267-deputy-sheriff-bradley-jay-riches

Not easy to see photos of his unit with so many holes in it.

bluestaterebel
05-21-2009, 4:42 PM
Why don't you stop by one of these days and we will go to lunch. I know couple of good places to eat. Just come to my office and tell me your screen name.;)

Cool, we do walk-ins on wednesdays, is your office same floor as the gun room?

Jonathan Doe
05-21-2009, 5:45 PM
Cool, we do walk-ins on wednesdays, is your office same floor as the gun room?

Indeed, on the 3rd floor.

doc1buc
05-21-2009, 6:04 PM
I am working on a research paper regarding the "assault weapon" in America, may I use your responses here in my paper?

California-Quigley
05-21-2009, 8:40 PM
seen quite a few over my tour in gangs.... probably 10-15. i had a moded colt with a 11" barrel full auto on a traffic stop in culver city.

PolishMike
05-21-2009, 8:44 PM
a few.mostly on searches of homes and things like that but never a active shooter with an AW (God forbid). every officers worst nightmare is being over powered with firepower.


And how exactly is an AR going to be more dangerous than a Mini-14 or SKS. This kind of attitude really annoys me. Its what the anti's want you to think. Somehow by having a pistol grip will make it more deadly?

BigDogatPlay
05-21-2009, 8:51 PM
In my time, three that I recall. I still have copies of evidence photos I took on a couple of them. One of them was a Class 3 M1A1 Thompson that a military guy brought home from overseas. A half dozen or so SBS and no SBR. Most firearms I encountered were handguns, 9mm and smaller typically.

bluestaterebel
05-21-2009, 11:09 PM
And how exactly is an AR going to be more dangerous than a Mini-14 or SKS. This kind of attitude really annoys me. Its what the anti's want you to think. Somehow by having a pistol grip will make it more deadly?

I think the point to his statement was in this sentence: every officers worst nightmare is being over powered with firepower.

a Mini-14 and SKS would definitely qualify for that, no need to get all hot and bothered.

All guns are deadly

bluestaterebel
05-21-2009, 11:20 PM
seen quite a few over my tour in gangs.... probably 10-15. i had a moded colt with a 11" barrel full auto on a traffic stop in culver city.

You work Culver City PD?

eltee
05-22-2009, 10:29 AM
I've gotten radio calls to respond to "Man with a machinegun" type calls, but only encountered a real AW once or twice, and both times it was a legal situation. My most funny one almost involved me shooting a guy with a homemade machinegun...sort of. Dispatcher reports man with "machinegun" pointing it at people downtown. Myself and partner are 1st to arrive, ON FOOT, and we take position behind the guy and he doesn't see us. He is pointing a metal machinegun looking object at people who are running terrified away from him. We are guns drawn and closing, using what cover we can. We shout out and he drops the "machinegun" and we grab him up. The gun on the ground still looks real and deadly, the barrel looks to have a suppressor.

Turns out the guy is a local wacko. The "machinegun" is part of a metal sprinkler system he stole. The main pipe looked like the receiver / barrel and the "T" connector made a pistol grip while another fitting with a short length of pipe looked like a mag.

Had he turned and pointed at us, he would have been shot. "Unarmed, Homeless, Disabled Man Shot And Killed by Police...Film at 11." Lucky day for all of us.

CSACANNONEER
05-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Growing up in Malibu I can tell you that although a LEO wouldn't see any AW during the line of duty, there are many AW owners (mainly AR's and AK's) in Malibu. None however are used in any illegal fashion which is why they wouldnt normally be seen

Working in Malibu for the last 11 years (not in LE though), I know of quite a few RAWs and even some NFA stuff there. Yep, I know a few people (not actors, etc.) in Malibu who legally own FA firearms, surpressors, SBS, etc.

Jonathan Doe
05-22-2009, 2:20 PM
And how exactly is an AR going to be more dangerous than a Mini-14 or SKS. This kind of attitude really annoys me. Its what the anti's want you to think. Somehow by having a pistol grip will make it more deadly?

I guess the thread is about AW's. The most common rifles I see that are used in crimes are SKS rifles. Most common rifle rounds are 7.62X39mm, steel case. I have seen some 30 Carbines believe it or not.

compsoftstation
05-23-2009, 12:25 AM
OC Deputy Sheriff Bradley Jay Riches encountered one on June 12. 1999.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/15267-deputy-sheriff-bradley-jay-riches

Not easy to see photos of his unit with so many holes in it.

It happened a few blocks where I live. I recall hearing the shots. May he rest in peace. :(

greenpea76
05-24-2009, 9:16 AM
I don't keep atrack on my cases. So, I don't know how many cases were AW cases.

Yes, I am working at the new crime lab on Cal State LA campus.

Wow, I'm about a mile from that campus.

gunrun45
05-24-2009, 9:29 AM
Found 2 modded SKS rifles with high cap mags on a traffic stop, 1 cut down 10 guage shotgun, 1 UZI (real UZI brought in from Mexico) and 1 MAC (also from Mexico). All the rest were normal stuff you would expect. The norm were cheaper stuff that you would expect someone to take from a sock drawer. There were some others, but frankly they were related to organized crime and I don't count those as "street" type normal encounters.

Fantasma
05-24-2009, 4:49 PM
Found 2 modded SKS rifles with high cap mags on a traffic stop, 1 cut down 10 guage shotgun, 1 UZI (real UZI brought in from Mexico) and 1 MAC (also from Mexico). All the rest were normal stuff you would expect. The norm were cheaper stuff that you would expect someone to take from a sock drawer. There were some others, but frankly they were related to organized crime and I don't count those as "street" type normal encounters.

What would you consider organized crime?

Jonathan Doe
05-24-2009, 6:05 PM
I have worked on cases where there were full auto M-2 carbine, full auto Mac10, and other full auto weapons, some original facory and some converted. Also worked on several silencer cases. Also, there were some 50 cal rifles confiscated from "organized crime". Cannot name the organization due to confidentiality.

gunrun45
05-26-2009, 5:36 PM
What would you consider organized crime?

Lets just say that they weren't found during car stops...

paul0660
05-26-2009, 7:50 PM
Great response by Leos here and super informational. NOW, a thread hijack. How the heck did that Mixon guy in Oakland get so lucky? I read hundreds of shooting reports in the course of a year and few are killed, many injured. Did he just hit the jackpot or what??? From the traffic stop to the halfassed swat entry, it was a day of reckoning. Chime in with theories or facts.

HotRails
05-26-2009, 9:13 PM
I have worked on cases where there were full auto M-2 carbine, full auto Mac10, and other full auto weapons, some original facory and some converted. Also worked on several silencer cases. Also, there were some 50 cal rifles confiscated from "organized crime". Cannot name the organization due to confidentiality.

Im curious to know what proportion of the FA weapons you examine are original factory as opposed to some individual performing a modification? I imagine the factory originals are stolen perhaps from the military?

Jonathan Doe
05-27-2009, 4:51 PM
Some guns were factory/ unmodified full auto and some were factory silenced. When I contacted the ATF, they were glad that I contacted them. I don't know where the guns were form, but I know teh ATF traced some. Some were modified in various ways. It is amazing to see how they are ingenious about modifying.

I have been to a LE classes on full auto conversion / silencer class. I am also going to a seminar where there will be classes to see what people are doing to convert the guns to full auto and silencers.

gunrun45
05-27-2009, 5:57 PM
Sounds like an interesting class...
If it's something that can be "posted", do you mind if I ask who is sponsoring it? We never get any of the neat seminars in northern CA...

Jonathan Doe
05-27-2009, 6:23 PM
I had a class at Lassen college in Susanville through NRA summer gunsmithing program for LE only, and the next month's ones are sponsored by Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners in Miami, FL.

SVT-40
05-27-2009, 9:42 PM
I had a funny case just before I retired. A informant claimed he was in with a guy who had a full auto mini Uzi sub gun he wanted to sell. The detective who was handling the case actually got the informant to take some really good digital photos of the "Uzi". When the detective showed me the photos I was able to determine the "Uzi" was a replica due to the mold lines in the mag well and the holes which held the screws keeping some parts of the receiver together.

Bottom line no case

Camsnappersc
05-27-2009, 9:55 PM
I had a class at Lassen college in Susanville through NRA summer gunsmithing program for LE only, and the next month's ones are sponsored by Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners in Miami, FL.

My uncle is retiring from there this year. Bob Brower.:D

gunrun45
05-28-2009, 3:24 PM
I had a class at Lassen college in Susanville through NRA summer gunsmithing program for LE only, and the next month's ones are sponsored by Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners in Miami, FL.

The Assoication of Firearms and Toolmarks Examiners is a great group. I belonged to CHIA and had some good times and great training with some members of AFTE at confrences. Lassen College can be untapped resource. I wish they would advertise their classes a little more to the LE community. If you don't know about them from word of mouth they can be easy to miss. Most folks don't know that they are one of two NRA certified gunsmith schools in the US.

Mike

Jonathan Doe
05-28-2009, 9:50 PM
The Assoication of Firearms and Toolmarks Examiners is a great group. I belonged to CHIA and had some good times and great training with some members of AFTE at confrences. Lassen College can be untapped resource. I wish they would advertise their classes a little more to the LE community. If you don't know about them from word of mouth they can be easy to miss. Most folks don't know that they are one of two NRA certified gunsmith schools in the US.

Mike

I am a regular member of ATE. As a matter of fact, I am attending the seminar next week in Miami, FL. As a firearms instructor in the past and a firearms examiner now, I have attended just about all the LE armorer school they offered for the summer program over the years. Of course my dept paid for the courses and per diem. Good classes and a nice break from work for a week or two. Very small town and quiet.

HotRails
05-29-2009, 9:34 AM
I am a regular member of ATE. As a matter of fact, I am attending the seminar next week in Miami, FL. As a firearms instructor in the past and a firearms examiner now, I have attended just about all the LE armorer school they offered for the summer program over the years. Of course my dept paid for the courses and per diem. Good classes and a nice break from work for a week or two. Very small town and quiet.

OT but you should def check out South Beach, nuff said. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

oddjob
05-29-2009, 1:00 PM
In my 30 years I would guess about 8-10 total AW's. I haven't pushed a black & white for 22 years, but from what I understand most AW cases are the result of a family fight call. Overall though they are rare.......Most weapons offenses are handgun related.

Turbinator
05-31-2009, 7:24 AM
I think the point to his statement was in this sentence: every officers worst nightmare is being over powered with firepower.


But doesn't it have to be effective firepower in order for it to be a specific immediate danger to the officer? Shooting fast and missing doesn't win the gunfight. I'd rather hit with a 9mm compact than miss with a belt fed .308.

Turby

Jonathan Doe
05-31-2009, 6:39 PM
OT but you should def check out South Beach, nuff said. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Just had the dinner at a Cuban restaurant in South Beach. First time for Cuban food.A little different taste, but I can get used to it. The AFTE seminar starts tomorrow. It will be interesting.