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View Full Version : 20 year old selling a handgun


andrewj
05-19-2009, 8:41 PM
Let me open by saying I am 20 years old. I inherited a few handguns from my grandfather and had the Op-Law (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) transaction done to take ownership of them. A couple months pass and I get a notice from the DOJ-BOF stating that the transaction has been processed and that I am the legal owner of several handguns. Sweet.

I recently decided to sell one of my handguns to a nice gentleman here on CGN. Earlier tonight, we went down to Turners on Tustin Ave. in the city of Orange to do the PPT. I pulled out my ID and gave it to an employee. As he walked to the copier, he stopped dead in his tracks, turned around, and told me that they cannot do the transfer because I am 20 years old. I made this face----> :confused:. He said that a 20 year old cannot have ownership of a handgun. I made this face again ----> :confused:. I told him he was wrong while he was walking to the front counter for confirmation. He stopped as I asked if he would like me to explain. He said yes. I told him that the Op-Law process permits adult children to take ownership of a handgun. He continued to the front counter to consult with the other employees regarding the legality of carrying out a PPT. They came to the consensus that I am illegally in possession of a handgun because anyone under 21 years old cannot own or possess one. I then told them that I received a notice from the DOJ regarding my Op-Law process saying:

"This is to acknowledge that the Department of Justice has processed your request and has made an entry into the Automated Firearms System..."

and

"A firearm eligibility check has been completed confirming your eligibility to possess firearms"

The employees were somewhat convinced but still decided to make a phone call to corporate to see if they could continue. A few minutes later, an employee came back and told me that corporate will not allow the PPT to take place since 20 year olds cannot own handguns :banghead:

Thanks to the phone call, the employees were convinced, again, that 20 year olds cannot own handguns. I asked if the employees wanted to speak to the nice lady at the DOJ-BOF and ask what she thought (I had already called the DOJ a few times and was given the green light to continue with a PPT). They rolled their eyes and told me that corporate wonít allow it, end of story. Well, I cant argue with that. :mad:

BUT!

If I remember correctly, FFL's are not allowed to turn down PPT's... so why did I get turned down? :confused:

I also called Fowlers down the street and asked if they will do the PPT, they also said that 20 year olds cannot have handguns. They canít do it... and wonít do it.

I dont know if I'm ranting or looking for help, you decide! Or you could at least let me know if any FFL in the OC area will do the PPT.

ke6guj
05-19-2009, 8:48 PM
I don't see where in the PC it says that a 20-year old can't sell a handgun via the PPT process. Just be aware that if you do find a dealer that will do the PPT, if the buyer fails the DROS, the dealer may not be able to return the handgun to you, since I don't think a failed PPT is an exemption to the requirement that a person be 21 to receive a handgun from an FFL.

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 8:49 PM
Call DOJ and get them to fax you a letter which states that the handgun in question is legally yours and they know you are under 21. Take that along with a copy of the law which states that it is illegal for them to deny your PPT. If they still won't do it, call DOJ and report them while you are walking out of the store.

pnkssbtz
05-19-2009, 8:59 PM
Let me open by saying I am 20 years old. I inherited a few handguns from my grandfather and had the Op-Law (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) transaction done to take ownership of them. A couple months pass and I get a notice from the DOJ-BOF stating that the transaction has been processed and that I am the legal owner of several handguns. Sweet.

I recently decided to sell one of my handguns to a nice gentleman here on CGN. Earlier tonight, we went down to Turners on Tustin Ave. in the city of Orange to do the PPT. I pulled out my ID and gave it to an employee. As he walked to the copier, he stopped dead in his tracks, turned around, and told me that they cannot do the transfer because I am 20 years old. I made this face----> :confused:. He said that a 20 year old cannot have ownership of a handgun. I made this face again ----> :confused:. I told him he was wrong while he was walking to the front counter for confirmation. He stopped as I asked if he would like me to explain. He said yes. I told him that the Op-Law process permits adult children to take ownership of a handgun. He continued to the front counter to consult with the other employees regarding the legality of carrying out a PPT. They came to the consensus that I am illegally in possession of a handgun because anyone under 21 years old cannot own or possess one. I then told them that I received a notice from the DOJ regarding my Op-Law process saying:

"This is to acknowledge that the Department of Justice has processed your request and has made an entry into the Automated Firearms System..."

and

"A firearm eligibility check has been completed confirming your eligibility to possess firearms"

The employees were somewhat convinced but still decided to make a phone call to corporate to see if they could continue. A few minutes later, an employee came back and told me that corporate will not allow the PPT to take place since 20 year olds cannot own handguns :banghead:

Thanks to the phone call, the employees were convinced, again, that 20 year olds cannot own handguns. I asked if the employees wanted to speak to the nice lady at the DOJ-BOF and ask what she thought (I had already called the DOJ a few times and was given the green light to continue with a PPT). They rolled their eyes and told me that corporate wonít allow it, end of story. Well, I cant argue with that. :mad:

BUT!

If I remember correctly, FFL's are not allowed to turn down PPT's... so why did I get turned down? :confused:

I also called Fowlers down the street and asked if they will do the PPT, they also said that 20 year olds cannot have handguns. They canít do it... and wonít do it.

I dont know if I'm ranting or looking for help, you decide! Or you could at least let me know if any FFL in the OC area will do the PPT.Looks like turner's broke the law.

They are required by federal law to do PPT's for firearms of a type they sell.


Their corporate policy is not the CA legislature nor court system, and as such their corporate policy does not get to dictate the law.

lorax3
05-19-2009, 9:00 PM
Hm, interesting. Did you ask the DOJ specifically if you could participate in a PPT, or just if you could own a handgun under 21?

I will take a look more into the PC; I always assumed you could not sell it since it seemed like a dealer could not transfer it to or from a person under 21. I have no PC reference to my assumption, so I need to check.

Interested to see how this turns out.

Edit: "Looks like turner's broke the law.

In this case the DOJ would side with Turners. If you can indeed participate in a PPT of a handgun under 21 it would be a rare occurrence. The DOJ usually sides with a dealer if the "dealer believes anything involved in this PPT would be illegal". Although I am pretty upbeat when it come to firearm legalities, I would even need some clarification on this one.

-lorax

thempopresense
05-19-2009, 9:15 PM
It's legal for someone age 18-20 to own a firearm, they just can't buy one. A father can buy a handgun, and legally give it to his kid on his 18th birthday, as long as they fill out the form and send it into the DOJ. If the kid passes the backround check, they are good to go.

With all that said, try finding someone that will sell you handgun caliber ammo if you are not 21 or older.

andrewj
05-19-2009, 9:27 PM
I don't see where in the PC it says that a 20-year old can't sell a handgun via the PPT process. Just be aware that if you do find a dealer that will do the PPT, if the buyer fails the DROS, the dealer may not be able to return the handgun to you, since I don't think a failed PPT is an exemption to the requirement that a person be 21 to receive a handgun from an FFL.

Noted. Thank you for the heads up


Hm, interesting. Did you ask the DOJ specifically if you could participate in a PPT, or just if you could own a handgun under 21?

-lorax

I was specifically given the go ahead by the DOJ to sell my handgun, at my current age, via PPT.


With all that said, try finding someone that will sell you handgun caliber ammo if you are not 21 or older.

I have to drag mommy or daddy down to the store to pick up ammo for me. Isnt that embarrassing? :o

pnkssbtz
05-19-2009, 9:51 PM
Hm, interesting. Did you ask the DOJ specifically if you could participate in a PPT, or just if you could own a handgun under 21?

I will take a look more into the PC; I always assumed you could not sell it since it seemed like a dealer could not transfer it to or from a person under 21. I have no PC reference to my assumption, so I need to check.

Interested to see how this turns out.

Edit: "

In this case the DOJ would side with Turners. If you can indeed participate in a PPT of a handgun under 21 it would be a rare occurrence. The DOJ usually sides with a dealer if the "dealer believes anything involved in this PPT would be illegal". Although I am pretty upbeat when it come to firearm legalities, I would even need some clarification on this one.

-loraxThe 21 years of age requirement is for PURCHASING firearms.

edward
05-19-2009, 10:17 PM
It's legal for someone age 18-20 to own a firearm, they just can't buy one. A father can buy a handgun, and legally give it to his kid on his 18th birthday, as long as they fill out the form and send it into the DOJ. If the kid passes the backround check, they are good to go.

With all that said, try finding someone that will sell you handgun caliber ammo if you are not 21 or older.

Any ammo vendor at any gun show I've ever been too?

Any website online that doesn't have a requirement for photo idea before shipment?

Ohh the lists are endless... :43:

7x57
05-19-2009, 10:27 PM
I wonder if, in the far future, we can ever get a court to rule that extra age limitations violate the 2A? So far as I can tell, the founders didn't regard you as a citizen if you didn't have the right to arms. It seems that voting age would be about the limit that the states could apply extra restrictions, both being similar marks of citizenship. Or use the age at which one can be drafted, as you are then clearly part of the militia (though the right belongs to the people, which is a superset of the militia).

But I'm not going to hold my breath.

7x57

lorax3
05-19-2009, 11:14 PM
-
Ohh the lists are endless... :43:

While trying to remain on topic, it is still illegal for a vendor to sell someone ammo that will be used for a pistol under 21. Even if you do own a pistol under 21, you cannot legally buy ammunition for it by yourself.

Many websites have fine print disclaims that say you must be 21 to buy ammo, but it is not enforced.

/back to the matter at hand.

leitung
05-19-2009, 11:54 PM
Legally, you can sell that pistol. They are full of it, and it's a common misunderstanding that someone under 21 cannot own a handgun.

Let us know how this turns out for you.

azn_wrx
05-20-2009, 12:12 AM
Call ADE! Turners and Fowler's are horrible.

low94noma
05-20-2009, 12:15 AM
Oh man, totally ridiculous. I would think firearms store employees would know the laws regarding FIREARMS! I would try contacting a Calguns member who holds an FFL in your area. Any members from Andrew's area have a recommendation of an FFL in his area?

7x57
05-20-2009, 12:18 AM
I would think firearms store employees would know the laws regarding FIREARMS!

I don't know what world you live in, but I think it's better than mine.

7x57

lorax3
05-20-2009, 12:32 AM
Has anyone between the ages of 18-21 successfully completed a PPT of a handgun?

Were you the buyer or the seller? It would seem that someone under 21 would not be able to be on the reviving end of a PPT, as that would be selling a pistol to someone under 21. With family gifts and things exempt from this, although those exemptions are not a true PPT in nature I suppose.

It would seem 12072 if read literally only refers to the transferring of a handgun to a person under 21, and not from one. Hmm. So someone under 21 can be on the selling side of a PPT, but not the buying side?

Anyone else have more info?

bigcalidave
05-20-2009, 12:46 AM
Oh man, totally ridiculous. I would think firearms store employees would know the laws regarding FIREARMS! I would try contacting a Calguns member who holds an FFL in your area. Any members from Andrew's area have a recommendation of an FFL in his area?

Why would you believe that gun store employees know the laws? They sell guns, and are not typically lawyers :)
It's your job to provide them the proof when they are wrong. I'm regularly trying to explain the ridiculous laws we have here to anyone I can, including the gun store employees.

Librarian
05-20-2009, 1:49 AM
Sadly, it's quite common for gun store employees (and others) to mistakenly conclude that the Federal law which prohibits FFLs from transferring handguns to minors - 18 USC 922 (b)(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliveró
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age; - means that minors are not allowed to own them.

They forget there are legal means other than FFL transfer for someone to acquire a handgun. And in your PPT case, none of that applies, since they would not be transferring TO a person under 21.

lorax3
05-20-2009, 1:57 AM
And in your PPT case, none of that applies, since they would not be transferring TO a person under 21.

So someone 18-21 would still be prohibited from receiving a handgun via a PPT, Correct?

I am not familiar with the DROS software but will the software let you submit the form if someone is under 21? Assuming only the seller can be under 21. I would assume so as someone under 21 may receive a cross state family transfer. Not as familiar with the DROS software as I would like to be.

ke6guj
05-20-2009, 2:21 AM
correct, a person under 21 woulld be prohibited from having a handgun transfered from a dealer since he would need to do a 4473 as part of the PPT, or interstate intrafamily transfer, and you must be 21 to do the 4473.

andrewj
05-21-2009, 5:15 PM
This thread sorta started out as a "Turners sucks" thread but Im gonna shift gears and make it a "RifleGear rocks" thread. I was PM'ed by an employee at RifleGear who said that he was willling to do the PPT for us. We stopped in today and got the PPT done.... no issues whatsoever. A big thanks to the RifleGear crew!

Joe
05-21-2009, 5:18 PM
This thread sorta started out as a "Turners sucks" thread but Im gonna shift gears and make it a "RifleGear rocks" thread. I was PM'ed by an employee at RifleGear who said that he was willling to do the PPT for us. We stopped in today and got the PPT done.... no issues whatsoever. A big thanks to the RifleGear crew!

thats awesome.

+1 for riflegear

low94noma
05-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Right on RifleGear! Glad you were able to get it done. I would bring that douche some paperwork regarding the laws, then give his/her manager your piece of mind if he still does not listen.

I guess it is true you can not expect a gun store employee to be knowledgeable about firearms. It would be like a person working at a Nascar store who knows nothing about the sport. Got to love guns and race cars.

BONECUTTER
05-22-2009, 12:02 AM
Hey Andrew,

I did your paperwork today. It always makes me want to throw up in my mouth when I hear stories like yours. I wonder if the employees of the other places really just try so hard to avoid doing the PPT.

I would never think an 18-20 year old would ever be in a gun store handing over his ID to legally transfer a firearm unless everything was on the up and up. Regardless it brought someone new to a store with EBR's and might help them catch the bug.

Hopefully a good end to the day.

andrewj
05-22-2009, 12:42 AM
Hey Andrew,

I did your paperwork today. It always makes me want to throw up in my mouth when I hear stories like yours. I wonder if the employees of the other places really just try so hard to avoid doing the PPT.

I would never think an 18-20 year old would ever be in a gun store handing over his ID to legally transfer a firearm unless everything was on the up and up. Regardless it brought someone new to a store with EBR's and might help them catch the bug.

Hopefully a good end to the day.

First of all, thanks for your help today. I have dealed with RifleGear many times and my experience gets better each time.

Now for those boneheaded Turners employees. About two months ago, I went into that Turners to do a PPT and they told us that they would be with us in about 45 minutes to an hour. We found that odd since the only other customers in the store were tumbleweeds. We left and took our money elsewhere. The other day was the nail in the coffin. I am done with that Turners.

But like you said, we introduced someone new to the EBR game, someone got a new pistol, I got some cash, and you got the business, so all in all, everyones happy.

Thanks again

AndrewMendez
05-22-2009, 1:40 PM
Jarvi, thats what you get for going to Turners! +1 for Riflegear!

383green
05-22-2009, 2:14 PM
I haven't been to Riflegear yet, but now I'm even more interested than ever in checking them out. I know a guy who's an active Calguns member, and who took a job there after being laid off from his high-tech job, so I know that there's at least one person there who actively stays on top of our screwy legal situation here in CA. :thumbsup:

andrewj
05-22-2009, 2:15 PM
Jarvi, thats what you get for going to Turners! +1 for Riflegear!

Lesson learned

motorhead
05-22-2009, 9:10 PM
don't bother trying to educate turners,they just don't care. they are not legally require to GAS.

cousinkix1953
05-22-2009, 11:37 PM
It's legal for someone age 18-20 to own a firearm, they just can't buy one. A father can buy a handgun, and legally give it to his kid on his 18th birthday, as long as they fill out the form and send it into the DOJ. If the kid passes the backround check, they are good to go.

With all that said, try finding someone that will sell you handgun caliber ammo if you are not 21 or older.
The only questions should be is the buyer over 21 years of age and not prohibited by law from posessing a handgun?