View Full Version : Limit on gun sales by non FFL?

09-13-2005, 10:54 AM
Yes I know the Feds have not defined a number of guns allowed to be sold by a non FFL holder but there is some vague definition like you can't make your main income from it.

Does CA have a exact definition? I have read in other threads not to trust what DOJ tells you in a phone call, you need it in writing.

However my dad called and was told, sell as many long guns as you want. Handguns he was told you could only sell six a year thru a dealer consignment case but could sell as many PPT as you want.

I usually do the consignment thing but that stuff the DOJ told my dad seems to make little sense as aren't all guns in a dealer consignment case that are non approved DROSed as a PPT anyways? How would the DOJ know you didn't walk in the store and do a PPT with someone you know?

I was also told by a now defunct FFL dealer that there was two conflicting numbers in the books, 6 and 12. And what would one do if trying to sell off a large collection or a big part of it, would if have to go thru an auction or out of state? Would you have to ask the DOJ for an exemption?

As you can see this is very confusing. I have got rid of most the handguns I don't want already but I do try to space out their sale to about 6 a year due to my uncertainty of the laws.

09-13-2005, 11:23 AM
I belive the 'number of guns sold' rules are for folks selling guns privately without dealer mediation. This is probably moot in CA where even PPTs are mediated via FFL. It is used by ATF to determine when somebody moving more than a certain # of guns is really a business and thus requires an FFL.

If you are in CA you are buying guns from a dealer or thru an FFL-mediated PPT, and selling them the same way. That's not a business, and you wouldn't need an FFL, even if you're buying a ton of guns. It might come up on radar and perhaps they ask you questions, but that's it.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Mssr. Eleganté
09-13-2005, 11:23 AM
I think your question is addressed in section 12070 of the Califonia Penal Code...


Section 12070(b)(4) says it is OK for unlicensed people to sell firearms infrequently and then section 12070(c)(1) defines what "infrequent" means...

(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

Notice that for handguns, each of the six transactions can involve multiple firearms. And notice that for long guns, they define "infrequent" as meaning "occasional and without regularity". Really clear definition, huh?

There is also a provision in Section 12070 (b)(5) for what is known as a "Gun Show Trader". It looks to me that it allows C&R FFL's with a COE to sell up to 75 used long guns per year as long as they don't sell at more than 12 gunshow per year and don't sell more than 15 guns per show.

In all of the above cases you still need to follow all of the other California laws regarding firearms transfers.

09-13-2005, 9:59 PM
Thanks guys, that helps a little. Those laws are a bit vague though. So six times a year but multiple ok? But the problem is, when you consign guns, say you bring in 5 or 6 twice a year, they will sell and DROS at different times and look like 10-12 different times. Seems to solve having an estate auction though.

Probably won't pop up on the radar as much as buying a lot of guns but I don't like giving DOJ or ATF reason to mess with me. I guess though if they wanted to they would have already as my dad and I have the same name and lived in the same house for a while and have done easily 100-150 DROS's in the last 5-7 years. I try to not buy two handguns from one dealer at the same time too.

Even though this is a moot point with the one a month law I've bought more than one PPT at one time, I don't know if it applies to used guns, but I know FFL is suppose to report a sale of multiple handguns to the ATF.

I have bought 2-3 long guns on one DROS to save $ but I think thats not a big deal.

I actually did meet a gunsmith that told me when he was younger that ATF actually did come to his house and wanted to know why he bought like 20 handguns at one time. He was headed to a gunsmith school and they wanted him to have some of thse guns and ATF said ok and left!