PDA

View Full Version : choice of caliber in SHTF


neomentat
05-19-2009, 10:18 AM
Just a hypothetical, would you rather have:

-30 rounder mags loaded of 7.62x39/5.56 in your semi-auto rifle of choice

or

-10 rounder mags loaded with 12 gauge buck shot/slug & Saiga-12

in a SHTF or home defense / survival scenario.

Gator Monroe
05-19-2009, 10:22 AM
8 rounders in 1911A1 !:thumbsup:

hybridatsun350
05-19-2009, 10:22 AM
I'd rather have 30 rds in an AR. No question about it. It leaves more options open.

MasterYong
05-19-2009, 10:29 AM
You're not giving us very good options. For SHTF I'd NEVER want 5.56!

How's about 20 rd mags with 7.62x51 NATO??? That'll do nicely thank you! :43:

/If I need more than 20 rounds before reloading I think I'm royally *($&%$ anyway!

fliparch
05-19-2009, 10:34 AM
Definitely.... Rifle if I'd have to choose between my AR and my pistols. You're ahead of most if you have either.

jumbopanda
05-19-2009, 10:35 AM
Most likely 30 rounds of .223 or 5.45x39. I could also go with 10 rounds of .50 Beowulf but I think the .223/5.45 would be more practical in most situations.

hybridatsun350
05-19-2009, 10:37 AM
You're not giving us very good options. For SHTF I'd NEVER want 5.56!

I don't see why not... :confused:

fliparch
05-19-2009, 10:44 AM
You're not giving us very good options. For SHTF I'd NEVER want 5.56!


5.56 has served our military well so I don't see why it wouldn't serve the masses during SHTF situation? UNLESS SHTF means, aliens with thick skin body armors...:p

MasterYong
05-19-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't see why not... :confused:

I don't have a lot of real-world experience with 5.56 (only at the range) but the only two guys I know that are currently deployed (one in kabul and one, last I checked, in fallujah) are both vehemently against the use of 5.56 in combat. Both claim that it endangers their lives by not having enough stopping power. Both would prefer 7.62 NATO. One claims that his unit hit an insurgent 20 some-odd times (I think it was 27, but I'm not going to say I'm sure) with 5.56 and he got away, only to be found in a hospital later bleeding, but alive. I seriously doubt that anyone would survive 20 hits of 7.62 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, etc.

Like I said, I don't have any real-world experience with 5.56 and I'm sure that any comments I make about it being an anemic round will get me flamed by the old-schoolers, pissed off that I would dare say something like that when I've never put my life on the line for my country yada yada yada...... but the only two sources of information that I have on the round that I actually know and trust think it's not worthy of combat, and both feel that it was an incredibly poor choice to make that the standard battle rifle cartridge. I can't ignore that kind of advice, especially when one of the guys is on his third tour.

J_Rock
05-19-2009, 10:52 AM
I don't have a lot of real-world experience with 5.56 (only at the range) but the only two guys I know that are currently deployed (one in kabul and one, last I checked, in fallujah) are both vehemently against the use of 5.56 in combat. Both claim that it endangers their lives by not having enough stopping power. Both would prefer 7.62 NATO. One claims that his unit hit an insurgent 20 some-odd times (I think it was 27, but I'm not going to say I'm sure) with 5.56 and he got away, only to be found in a hospital later bleeding, but alive. I seriously doubt that anyone would survive 20 hits of 7.62 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, etc.

Like I said, I don't have any real-world experience with 5.56 and I'm sure that any comments I make about it being an anemic round will get me flamed by the old-schoolers, pissed off that I would dare say something like that when I've never put my life on the line for my country yada yada yada...... but the only two sources of information that I have on the round that I actually know and trust think it's not worthy of combat, and both feel that it was an incredibly poor choice to make that the standard battle rifle cartridge. I can't ignore that kind of advice, especially when one of the guys is on his third tour.

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

Oh God. Soldiers are worse than women at a hair salon. 5.56 works just fine, its plenty effective at making people not live anymore if you do your part. There is no bullet in the world that will drop someone instantaneously if you dont hit them in the vitals.

Added:
Funny how if an insurgent takes multiple hits and doesnt go down its the bullets fault. If one of our soldiers takes multiple hits from an AK and keeps on fighting(there are many documented cases of this) then it was because he was a bad @** mother****er. The other side can be motivated too.

Also I take it you've never been hunting before?

ccandgc
05-19-2009, 11:00 AM
.30 Carbine, small light rifle, combat proven, easy for the wife and kids to use. I have several carbines, I'll also use my 2 Mossberg M44 .22 for sniping the zombie hoards. Also , I'll use my 12ga(870), 30-06(garand) and .308(M1A)....pistol....pass on my .50AE Deagle unless I really need it.... .44 Anaconda yes please, also .45ACP yes please, 92FS Beretta will also work for me.

MasterYong
05-19-2009, 11:03 AM
:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

Oh God. Soldiers are worse than women at a hair salon. 5.56 works just fine, its plenty effective at making people not live anymore if you do your part. There is no bullet in the world that will drop someone instantaneously if you dont hit them in the vitals.

Added:
Funny how if an insurgent takes multiple hits and doesnt go down its the bullets fault. If one of our soldiers takes multiple hits from an AK and keeps on fighting(there are many documented cases of this) then it was because he was a bad @** mother****er. The other side can be motivated too.

Also I take it you've never been hunting before?

LOL "women at a hair salon" that's awesome. Since, like I said, I only know two soldiers I guess I never really made the connection that they were both so picky about their gear, I only noticed that they agreed with each other.

And aren't you forgetting that our guys ARE "bad @** mother****ers" and their guys are flower-planting wussies??? :clown:

NDFMF
05-19-2009, 11:10 AM
If I was really in a SHTF situation, I'd probably be packing a rifle, a shotgun and a sidearm anyway. For me, it'd be:

- AR in 5.56 or .308... don't really care. If the shot is placed right, that mofo's going down.
- 870 Tactical with a mix of 00 buck and slugs
- 1911 with .45 ACP JHPs
- Backpack full of loaded mags
- my pup

and I'd be headed up into the hills to find a nice shady hideout by a creek.

smle-man
05-19-2009, 11:10 AM
I don't have a lot of real-world experience with 5.56 (only at the range) but the only two guys I know that are currently deployed (one in kabul and one, last I checked, in fallujah) are both vehemently against the use of 5.56 in combat. Both claim that it endangers their lives by not having enough stopping power. Both would prefer 7.62 NATO. One claims that his unit hit an insurgent 20 some-odd times (I think it was 27, but I'm not going to say I'm sure) with 5.56 and he got away, only to be found in a hospital later bleeding, but alive. I seriously doubt that anyone would survive 20 hits of 7.62 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39, etc.

Like I said, I don't have any real-world experience with 5.56 and I'm sure that any comments I make about it being an anemic round will get me flamed by the old-schoolers, pissed off that I would dare say something like that when I've never put my life on the line for my country yada yada yada...... but the only two sources of information that I have on the round that I actually know and trust think it's not worthy of combat, and both feel that it was an incredibly poor choice to make that the standard battle rifle cartridge. I can't ignore that kind of advice, especially when one of the guys is on his third tour.


My son was there and those who got shot with 5.56 stayed shot. He had no complaints with the 5.56mm round's performance.

dchang0
05-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Funny how if an insurgent takes multiple hits and doesnt go down its the bullets fault. If one of our soldiers takes multiple hits from an AK and keeps on fighting(there are many documented cases of this) then it was because he was a bad @** mother****er. The other side can be motivated too.

AWESOMELY put, man!

Funny how some .mil guys hate the 5.56. They'd hate 7.62 a lot more if they actually had to lug it around on their persons. 500rnds of 5.56 is an annoyance; 500rnds of 7.62 is a pain in the ***!

In SHTF, I'd either be carrying a single 9mm Glock 19 (concealability) or a FS2000 (17.75" barrel, but in a 30.25" OAL; built-in gas-piston) + 9mm Glock. I know my limits--carrying a shotgun, plus AR, plus handgun and all the necessary ammo and magazines is just too much. I wouldn't be able to even walk with that much kit.

MasterYong
05-19-2009, 11:17 AM
My son was there and those who got shot with 5.56 stayed shot. He had no complaints with the 5.56mm round's performance.

That's the argument-ender in every forum I've ever seen regarding caliber.

When one guy says he uses a .22LR for home defense, and another says that will never work, another guy comes in and says "I would rather not get shot by either!"

At the end of the day that's what matters I suppose.

I still prefer my 7.62 NATO. America- land of the free to carry whatever damn caliber I want (unless you're in California). :cool2:

scidx
05-19-2009, 11:41 AM
I think if it really hit the fan (post-apocalyptic zombies), I would steal an M2 from work and mount it out of the back of my jeep. That would be pretty BA. If I had to roam the woods and play insurgent to an OPFOR, I'd feel comfortable with my .30-30 and my .45. At least, until I found something better. Also, I think my wife's car could use a 240B with about a thousand rounds.

aermotor
05-19-2009, 11:43 AM
Man 30 rounds in an AR seems like heaven... that would feel like I was shooting for days.

C.G.
05-19-2009, 11:51 AM
:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

Oh God. Soldiers are worse than women at a hair salon. 5.56 works just fine, its plenty effective at making people not live anymore if you do your part. There is no bullet in the world that will drop someone instantaneously if you dont hit them in the vitals.

Added:
Funny how if an insurgent takes multiple hits and doesnt go down its the bullets fault. If one of our soldiers takes multiple hits from an AK and keeps on fighting(there are many documented cases of this) then it was because he was a bad @** mother****er. The other side can be motivated too.

Also I take it you've never been hunting before?

Precisely. If they were to get 7.62 NATO then they would moan about being able to carry less ammo.

Full Clip
05-19-2009, 12:04 PM
Between a rifle and a shotgun?
Rifle every time. A shotgun — even a Saiga — is a relatively short-range weapon, and I don't want SHTF bad guys potentially getting that close to me.

AlliedArmory
05-19-2009, 12:47 PM
30 rders in my 5.56 AR

great all around rifle

and of course my 1911

kalguns
05-19-2009, 1:06 PM
AK
Shoot this weekend. Had 90% @ 250 yds.
That is a huge perimeter
:):):):):):)

Midian
05-19-2009, 1:09 PM
Well, since we're going wild here

How about a .308 1911 for close encounters?

Oh yes. I went there.

dchang0
05-19-2009, 1:11 PM
Well, since we're going wild here

How about a .308 1911 for close encounters?

Oh yes. I went there.

The question is, are you going to try to come back? ;)

AaronHorrocks
05-19-2009, 1:18 PM
I choice neither, and 1 up you with 100 rounds of linked .50 BMG! :cool:

West coast
05-19-2009, 1:22 PM
My AR with a 30 round mag. Will be okay.And my 870 for for short range combat. And my 1911 on the side with me.

Futurecollector
05-19-2009, 1:27 PM
No option for 30 rds of RPG rockets?

Tillers_Rule
05-19-2009, 1:29 PM
8 rounders in 1911A1 !:thumbsup:

I'll take 8 rounds in the M1 Garand:thumbsup:

Thunderbird
05-19-2009, 1:35 PM
staying close to home? .308, no question. The most versatile rifle round in my mind. So many uses and methods of delivery, but heavy and bulky.

Leaving the home for indefinate periods of time? .30 Carbine for me.

If you are leaving home you have higher priorities than guns and ammo. Namely shelter, water, and food. Travel light if you can.
Remember that soldiers have supply lines to carry necessities, but a soldier withou water dies quicker than one without bullets. Obvious exceptions of course.

eighteenninetytwo
05-19-2009, 1:39 PM
I do love the comments (and I make em too) that in a SHTF situation I'd be carrying X, Y and Z. The problem is that in a sudden SHTF scenario I'd invariably be carrying nothing because it would happen while I was at work, in the office. So in a real life situation the question becomes: Would I rather be carrying:
A) the stapler
B) the golf umbrella which hasn't moved from behind that coat rack for 4 years, or;
C) that Empire state building Snowstorm / Paperweight which selena the admin girl brought back from New York last time she went to see her mom.

I'm thinking for range the paperweight, for close quarters the umbrella, and whoever suggested the stapler is just plain nuts!

Barney Gumble
05-19-2009, 1:47 PM
The question is flawed because everyone has a different shtf scenario based on where they live/work. shtf in dense, urban areas is much different than in the central valley.

you'd be better off asking a more specific question like, "what's your choice for urban shtf".

raw24
05-19-2009, 1:49 PM
I'll take 8 rounds in the M1 Garand:thumbsup:

+1 on the M1
Gotta love .30-06:thumbsup:

neomentat
05-19-2009, 2:03 PM
or choice

D) if the admin girl Selena is hot, take her in any SHTF situation


I do love the comments (and I make em too) that in a SHTF situation I'd be carrying X, Y and Z. The problem is that in a sudden SHTF scenario I'd invariably be carrying nothing because it would happen while I was at work, in the office. So in a real life situation the question becomes: Would I rather be carrying:
A) the stapler
B) the golf umbrella which hasn't moved from behind that coat rack for 4 years, or;
C) that Empire state building Snowstorm / Paperweight which selena the admin girl brought back from New York last time she went to see her mom.

I'm thinking for range the paperweight, for close quarters the umbrella, and whoever suggested the stapler is just plain nuts!

AaronHorrocks
05-19-2009, 2:33 PM
With a name like Selena, "outlook good" ;)

a1fabweld
05-19-2009, 2:54 PM
I agree that 5.56 is a small round, but I did some plate testing a few weeks back & a standard 55 grain .223 round penetrated 3/8" mild steel plate. IMO, that's a decent round.

HKDoc
05-19-2009, 3:02 PM
I would love to carry 50 rounds in my ps90. Admittedly, I'm not the best shot so having extra rounds would probably be helpful.

Also, worked well in stargate....

MasterYong
05-19-2009, 3:30 PM
I agree that 5.56 is a small round, but I did some plate testing a few weeks back & a standard 55 grain .223 round penetrated 3/8" mild steel plate. IMO, that's a decent round.

It's not penetration that I'm worried about, it's diameter. Bigger holes bleed more. Rapid blood loss causes massive drop in blood pressure, which is disastrous at the least. In the end, of course, shot placement is the most important and having the ability to carry more rounds (in the case for 5.56) gives you more chances for proper shot placement.... but I'd still rather have 7.62 NATO. I guess it's just all about what each individual is more comfortable with. Confidence can make up for a LOT.

J_Rock
05-19-2009, 3:36 PM
It's not penetration that I'm worried about, it's diameter. Bigger holes bleed more. Rapid blood loss causes massive drop in blood pressure, which is disastrous at the least. In the end, of course, shot placement is the most important and having the ability to carry more rounds (in the case for 5.56) gives you more chances for proper shot placement.... but I'd still rather have 7.62 NATO. I guess it's just all about what each individual is more comfortable with. Confidence can make up for a LOT.

Big enough?

http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/NATO_pressure_Sierra_77_OTM_gel_shot_16_inch_barre l.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/x7zve7rk1c.jpg

http://www.box.net/shared/static/mlojnackvc.jpg

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 3:42 PM
I'd rather have 100 rounds of .22lr and a good .22lr rifle. With that, I could take game up to deer size and, if need be, use it to "get" another weapon and the appropriate ammo.

a1fabweld
05-19-2009, 3:50 PM
It's not penetration that I'm worried about, it's diameter. Bigger holes bleed more. Rapid blood loss causes massive drop in blood pressure, which is disastrous at the least. In the end, of course, shot placement is the most important and having the ability to carry more rounds (in the case for 5.56) gives you more chances for proper shot placement.... but I'd still rather have 7.62 NATO. I guess it's just all about what each individual is more comfortable with. Confidence can make up for a LOT.

I debate the issue with myself often. A .308 FAL/PTR/M1A would definitely do the trick for SHTF without worry. Damn ammo is very heavy. A full AR 30rd mag is much more comfortable to carry than a full .308 20rd mag. Especially if carrying multiple mags. But I wouldn't know because I live in CA & those things are illegal.

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 3:55 PM
I debate the issue with myself often. A .308 FAL/PTR/M1A would definitely do the trick for SHTF without worry. Damn ammo is very heavy. A full AR 30rd mag is much more comfortable to carry than a full .308 20rd mag. Especially if carrying multiple mags. But I wouldn't know because I live in CA & those things are illegal.

I don't understand your post. I can't find any refference to ANYTHING which is illegal to own in California.

Maddog5150
05-19-2009, 4:25 PM
Lol. These threads always crack me up.
Ok, in SHTF, if someone wanted to murder, steal, assault, snipe refugees then a rifle would be ok. Seriously, what SHTF scenario are we talking here? Earthquake? Katrina? Realistically your major scenario would require you to be defensive and in most neighborhoods your not going to be defending four, five, eight hundred meters away. Its like the guy who wants the lambo for his morning commute because it goes 200mph when stop and go only allows him for 40.

dchang0
05-19-2009, 5:23 PM
I do love the comments (and I make em too) that in a SHTF situation I'd be carrying X, Y and Z. The problem is that in a sudden SHTF scenario I'd invariably be carrying nothing because it would happen while I was at work, in the office. So in a real life situation the question becomes: Would I rather be carrying:
A) the stapler
B) the golf umbrella which hasn't moved from behind that coat rack for 4 years, or;
C) that Empire state building Snowstorm / Paperweight which selena the admin girl brought back from New York last time she went to see her mom.

I'm thinking for range the paperweight, for close quarters the umbrella, and whoever suggested the stapler is just plain nuts!

Check the thread in the shotgun forum about stowing a shotgun full-time in your vehicle.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=181549

Oregonish
05-19-2009, 5:25 PM
I don't see a place for "beowulf" :43:

mmbasser
05-19-2009, 5:32 PM
I'd agree with those who say rifle, shotgun and pistol if in a static defensive position. If mobile on foot, I'd dump the shotgun if in a rural area, the rifle if urban. Might even dump both long arms and carry more pistol ammo.

If mobil in a vehical, it all goes with me.

cryptkeeper
05-19-2009, 6:15 PM
After reading the guy from Argentina's account of a likely SHTF scenario, all I'd most likely need for carry is my Glock 19. If you mean EOTWAWKI, then you can expect me to look like Mad Max.

cryptkeeper
05-19-2009, 6:16 PM
edit: double post