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View Full Version : Whats better: Use slide release or "pull and let go"


Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 10:16 AM
I have a P95 and my ex-Marine/current SDPD friend told me that I should not use the slide release to return my gun to battery but instead should pull the slide and let go. He said of course the slide release method is ok in a tactical situation, but its hard on the gun to do it all the time.

For some reason I like using my thumb, but I have stopped doing that for now.

Whats your advice?

BTW forgive me if my terms or nomenclature are off..

hybridatsun350
05-19-2009, 10:19 AM
Some refer to the slide release as the slide catch (Implying it should not be used as a release). I'd say just do it whichever way feels comfortable. I doubt you're ever going to shoot your gun enough to wear it out!

The SoCal Gunner
05-19-2009, 10:20 AM
I don't see how much harder it can be on the gun when you are chambering a round.

If the slide stop and slide gets damaged from using the slide stop then I'd probably want a better gun.

I prefer using the slide stop because it is faster.

armygunsmith
05-19-2009, 10:32 AM
Suppose it depends on how you shoot and the situation. When i shoot left handed i pull the slide and release, right handed, i use the slide release. Now, in a tactical situation, i would rather pull and release the slide. The reason being that i wouldn't want to shift my grip on the pistol (it's how they get dropped in high stress situations).

Max DVC
05-19-2009, 10:43 AM
Some instructors, (myself included) only teach the "Slingshot" or as the OP put it, "pull and let go" method of slide release.

The reason: Finding the slide release with your thumb and depressing it is a fine motor skill, these fine motor skills generally will disappear under high stress, (such as a gunfight) along with higher brain functions.

:)

Cardinal Sin
05-19-2009, 10:47 AM
I actually had my slide slightly rounded where the slide stop was used as a slide release for 12 years. The slide was starting to not stay open after the final round was fired. Mags were good and no limp wristing so I sent the gun back to glock and they machined it free of cost and returned it to me. From that day on I pull back the slide and release. Ill occasionally use the slide stop for familiarity. Most guns will function either way. I feel more comfortable pulling the slide since the recoil spring will be fully compressed and have full force chambering the round. The slide catch/release method does not offer the full force of the recoil spring however it should still be more than enough to chamber a round. If it doesn't then there is something wrong. YMMV. Go with what works for you.

HCz
05-19-2009, 10:51 AM
Some instructors, (myself included) only teach the "Slingshot" or as the OP put it, "pull and let go" method of slide release.

The reason: Finding the slide release with your thumb and depressing it is a fine motor skill, these fine motor skills generally will disappear under high stress, (such as a gunfight) along with higher brain functions.

:)

So is pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger, releasing the magazine are both fine motor skills, so they shouldn't happen if the theory about fine/gross motor skills stands for pistols.

Using slide stop/lock/release is no worse or no better. If your pistol has easily accesible slide lock/release, then you can practice to use it. Some guns don't have such design, so you have to use overhand/pull and let go method, but for the guns that have slide lock/release readily available, it's personal preference.

sideshowhr
05-19-2009, 10:51 AM
The reason: Finding the slide release with your thumb and depressing it is a fine motor skill, these fine motor skills generally will disappear under high stress, (such as a gunfight) along with higher brain functions.



hmm... i would have thought the opposite.

pTa
05-19-2009, 10:54 AM
Personally I prefer the slingshot method.

Kahr recommends only using the slide release on their micro models like the CW9 etc.

Hey, I read the manual.

DarkHorse
05-19-2009, 10:57 AM
Are people here talking about using the firing hand to release the slide catch? I use my left (non-firing hand) to release the slide using the catch after a mag insertion. My grip on the pistol doesn't change, my left thumb is already there, and it doesn't seem like too complicated a movement.

Requiem
05-19-2009, 11:10 AM
FYI; there are no ex-Marines ;)

STAGE 2
05-19-2009, 11:13 AM
The reason: Finding the slide release with your thumb and depressing it is a fine motor skill, these fine motor skills generally will disappear under high stress, (such as a gunfight) along with higher brain functions.

:)

This is a common myth that has never been proven with respect to firearms nor does it stand up to logical scrutiny. If you aren't able to use the slide stop to release the slide then there isn't any way you could operate the mag release button or pull the trigger.

Whats more, using your hand to grab the slide and slingshot is a fine motor skill in of itself. Anything that requires the use of the fingers is. So if stress destroys fine motor skills, you are screwed either way.

It is true that stress has an effect on motor skills generally. Thats why we train. Muscle memory should be at the point where you don't think about what you are doing.

Fom my perspective, using the slide release is the better method because it eliminates a greater amount of human error. Its easier to hit the button with wet or injured hands, there isn't any chance of riding the slide home or not pulling it back far enough causing a malfunction.

Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 11:18 AM
FYI; there are no ex-Marines ;)


Thats right! Sorry about that.

So my friend is right, it may damage the gun over time... Not that I ever doubted him, I just wanted the collective Calguns advice as well.

On the P95 its easy to hit the button with my right thumb. It rams home pretty well so I think it should chamber just fine.

From now on Im gonna do this: If I am chambering a round I will use the slingshot method, but if I am simply returning the slide to its forward position with no rounds or mag I will use the slide stop.


Thanks for the advice guys.

Gryff
05-19-2009, 11:21 AM
I have a P95 and my ex-Marine/current SDPD friend told me that I should not use the slide release to return my gun to battery but instead should pull the slide and let go. He said of course the slide release method is ok in a tactical situation, but its hard on the gun to do it all the time.

For some reason I like using my thumb, but I have stopped doing that for now.

Whats your advice?

BTW forgive me if my terms or nomenclature are off..

Use your gun...learn one technique or the other...and stick with it.

Despite the passionate responses that you'll get, including a ton of "IT'S NOT A SLIDE RELEASE LEVER!!!!!!!!", figure out what works for you.

I use the slide release lever, have done 1,000+ reloads on the clock during competition, and have never missed it.

Full Clip
05-19-2009, 11:22 AM
The reason: Finding the slide release with your thumb and depressing it is a fine motor skill, these fine motor skills generally will disappear under high stress, (such as a gunfight) along with higher brain functions.

Exactly what I was taught...

Voo
05-19-2009, 11:32 AM
You're going to get 2 general opinions. Hit the lever or grab the slide.

I say you learn both and then figure out which one works better for you.

The SoCal Gunner
05-19-2009, 11:36 AM
So is pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger, releasing the magazine are both fine motor skills, so they shouldn't happen if the theory about fine/gross motor skills stands for pistols.

Using slide stop/lock/release is no worse or no better.

+1, hitting the slide stop should be no problem if you can drop the mag, pull out another, and then slap it in.

Are people here talking about using the firing hand to release the slide catch? I use my left (non-firing hand) to release the slide using the catch after a mag insertion. My grip on the pistol doesn't change, my left thumb is already there, and it doesn't seem like too complicated a movement.

+1 to this as well. Putting your support hand over to the slide and pulling it back requires more effort and time than to use the same support hand to hit the slide stop.

Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 11:51 AM
Does anyone practice racking on their shoe? I use a soft military style holster so I can't rack on the holster. My cop friend says they train like that as well as off hand, etc for obvious reasons.

trinydex
05-19-2009, 11:53 AM
i don't think there's any debate that the slide release reload is much faster.

better is a ****ty way to describe things, what does better mean?

to show you the difference in speeds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNjcubxfQA

OmNjcubxfQA

trinydex
05-19-2009, 12:04 PM
This is a common myth that has never been proven with respect to firearms nor does it stand up to logical scrutiny. If you aren't able to use the slide stop to release the slide then there isn't any way you could operate the mag release button or pull the trigger.

Whats more, using your hand to grab the slide and slingshot is a fine motor skill in of itself. Anything that requires the use of the fingers is. So if stress destroys fine motor skills, you are screwed either way.

It is true that stress has an effect on motor skills generally. Thats why we train. Muscle memory should be at the point where you don't think about what you are doing.

Fom my perspective, using the slide release is the better method because it eliminates a greater amount of human error. Its easier to hit the button with wet or injured hands, there isn't any chance of riding the slide home or not pulling it back far enough causing a malfunction.
if i was right handed or if all guns were ambidextrous i would hit the slide release too... guess i have to wait for the nerf hk45/p30s and then i'm just sol on the 1911s.

Citadelgrad87
05-19-2009, 12:30 PM
Every single class I have ever taken insisted upon the overhand grasp of the slide, pull back and slap yourself in the shoulder to totally eliminate any "danger" of riding the slide forward.

I don't mess around with shifting my grip to hit the release, or putting a huge release on so I can reach it, I grab the slide, overhand, not a pinch, and I am firing in less than a second.

It works for me, and the rationale, i.e. that the slide catch is small and migh be missed, made sense then and now to me.

Whatever you choose, practice, so shall you fight.

Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 12:51 PM
Every single class I have ever taken insisted upon the overhand grasp of the slide, pull back and slap yourself in the shoulder to totally eliminate any "danger" of riding the slide forward.

I don't mess around with shifting my grip to hit the release, or putting a huge release on so I can reach it, I grab the slide, overhand, not a pinch, and I am firing in less than a second.

It works for me, and the rationale, i.e. that the slide catch is small and migh be missed, made sense then and now to me.

Whatever you choose, practice, so shall you fight.


The videos I have watched taught this method. On a P95 I don't have forward serrations like a 1911 so I am supposed to do the "pinch".

Your method is good for "weak" shooter such as my girlfriend or her son. You "pinch" and push the gun forward a bit to make it easier to rack.

Im gonna drill for a while and see whats best for me

trinydex
05-19-2009, 1:00 PM
i like the pinch sling shot because as a left hander if i do too much of the overhand grasp when i practice to clear a "doublefeed" then i may be prone to overall messing things up by putting my palm in the way of the ejection port or trying to be careful to not put my palm in the way, or nabbing the safety with my fingers.

so to keep the doublefeed clearing and the reload consistent, i just do the pinch sling shot.

that and i saw larry vickers do it here at 30 seconds mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Cnr78WUNg

Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 1:01 PM
ok, great video!

I see what you mean about the left thumb hitting the release... Im gonna try that one

thefurball
05-19-2009, 1:08 PM
6 = 1/2 dozen
Either or.
However, I would suggest you decide on one method and stick to it.

Rifle Fetish
05-19-2009, 1:31 PM
Initially I was only asking about damage to the gun. Good tips and advice though.

mtenenhaus
05-19-2009, 1:37 PM
I took a Bruce Gray class last week and he mentioned this same scenario. I hope i'm accurate in relating this information.

Basically he advocates an overhand grip that:
does not sweep the front of the pistol and
maintains the thumb extended and pointing to the operators sternum.

If i recall, i believe he said that:
slide and lever releases can and do break,
they are small targets and may prove challenging to reliably engage in a high tension setting.

Anyway, hope that helps.

mala in se
05-19-2009, 1:39 PM
i was always taught to use my hand and manually pulling the slide. however, on my new G22, i've been using the catch release because it feels more comfortable.

i don't think it makes a difference either way. which ever way feels more comfortable.

Citadelgrad87
05-19-2009, 2:56 PM
I took a Bruce Gray class last week and he mentioned this same scenario. I hope i'm accurate in relating this information.

Basically he advocates an overhand grip that:
does not sweep the front of the pistol and
maintains the thumb extended and pointing to the operators sternum.

If i recall, i believe he said that:
slide and lever releases can and do break,
they are small targets and may prove challenging to reliably engage in a high tension setting.

Anyway, hope that helps.

That's exactly what I have been taught. They even frowned on the thumb pinch/slingshot method, because that's a finer motor skill than simply cupping the hand-fingers and thumb, over the top of the slide and pulling back, slapping yourself, and firing.

Remember to those who worry about fouling the action, this is for a reload after a mag has run empty, not an immediate action drill for a stovepipe or other malf, so you shouldn't have to worry about fouling it up, only getting it back into battery.

DarkHorse
05-19-2009, 3:25 PM
I took a Bruce Gray class last week and he mentioned this same scenario. I hope i'm accurate in relating this information.
...
If i recall, i believe he said that:
slide and lever releases can and do break,
they are small targets and may prove challenging to reliably engage in a high tension setting.

Anyway, hope that helps.

That's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of. But, I'm curious how a slide stop could break, by using it as a slide release, in a manner that would prevent the slide from going forward.

Mag releases are also small and challenging to use when unders stress, but people do it w/enough practice. I respect his opinion, as I'm sure he's fired more rounds than I have, but I think it all comes down to just that - practice.

...From now on Im gonna do this: If I am chambering a round I will use the slingshot method, but if I am simply returning the slide to its forward position with no rounds or mag I will use the slide stop.


Thanks for the advice guys.

As far as damaging the gun, I can see how using the slide stop could, over time, round off that corner, and possibly prevent the slide from stopping in the rear position. I'm not going to worry about that, though. Nothing a small file can't take care of:p

I've heard it's not a good idea to drop a slide on an empty chamber. I own several 1911 clones/variants, and due to the manner in which a 1911 locks up, dropping the slide can cause unecessary wear and tear on the weapon. If you're returning the slide forward w/o chambering a round, you might as well ride that puppy home.

Greg-Dawg
05-19-2009, 3:34 PM
Whatever makes you look cool at the range.

eflatminor
05-19-2009, 3:41 PM
No IPSC shooters uses the slide release. In fact, we have the slide stop modified so that it will not remain open even if you finish a magazine. That's probably because we never want to run dry. Anyway, the fastest, most effecient way is to rack the slide...and better not to let it stop in the open position.

APNF128
05-19-2009, 4:11 PM
I agree to all the bro & sis who prefer the slingshot method. Using the slide catch to released the slide to go into battery is no faster that using the slingshot method, especially if the gun you are using is a GLOCK with the older type of slide released.

mblat
05-19-2009, 4:16 PM
Some refer to the slide release as the slide catch (Implying it should not be used as a release). I'd say just do it whichever way feels comfortable. I doubt you're ever going to shoot your gun enough to wear it out!

Huh!!!! Slide catch on my Makarov gave in...... But Maks are somewhat famous for the slide catch being the only part that breaks.

bohoki
05-19-2009, 6:05 PM
using the slide stop could cause you problem if you are under stress and slap in an empty magazine

using the slide tells you that something is wrong

using the slide stop leaves you with an empty gun in battery

but while plinking i generally use the slide stop to drop my slide

MarioS
05-19-2009, 6:20 PM
I personally feel that using the slide stop to release the slide to chamber a round gives it more force. I have never had an issue at the range with chambering a round when using the slide stop, but have had a few issues when pulling the slide back with my weak hand. The round has not chambered smoothly a few times and the slide remained somewhat open, so I had to give it a bump with my weak head to get it to close. It always fired just fine but in a tactical situation, I would probably use the slide stop. This will also depend on what kind of situation I am in when I reload though.

paintballergb
05-19-2009, 6:26 PM
I was taught by ICE agents to never use the slide release.

BaronW
05-19-2009, 6:30 PM
I can't easily reach the slide catch on my 1911 without really fouling up my grip. Slingshot for me.

CapnHawk
05-19-2009, 6:31 PM
Now I know why I prefer revolvers!

STAGE 2
05-19-2009, 6:36 PM
Using the slide catch to released the slide to go into battery is no faster that using the slingshot method, especially if the gun you are using is a GLOCK with the older type of slide released.

Sorry, but thats just not true by any stretch of the imagination. Using the slide release is much faster than having to slam a mag in and then move your hand back to the slide, grab it, pull it back and then release.


Initially I was only asking about damage to the gun. Good tips and advice though.

The answer is "it depends". In a quality made pistol the metal used in the slide is going to be harder than the metal used in the slide release, so any wear that is going to occur is going to wear on the part and not the slide. As a result, if after tens of thousands of rounds wear did occur, then its a very very cheap fix.

If we are talking about real world practicality, then if you ever did get to this point, you would have put so many rounds through the gun that there would be so many other parts that would require replacement it wouldn't matter.

Sam
05-19-2009, 6:44 PM
When I load in a magazine my left thumb goes right past the slide release to hold the pistol to fire it. I might as well push it down as my thumb goes by. It's quicker as I don't have to perform anything that special to go from reload to firing the weapon.

Rob Roy
05-19-2009, 9:17 PM
IMO, either is fine.

JJ1911
05-20-2009, 3:18 AM
I use both. In terms of speed, I find the slide release method a bit faster and easy to maintain grip because the slide release on my XD is located towards the rear of the frame and near my strong hand thumb. Same goes for SIGs, since the release is conveniently located in the rear toward the thumb, its easy to use it and keep a solid grip. Shooting 1911s, I like the slingshot, don't have to alter my grip as much.

BunnySlayer
05-20-2009, 3:53 AM
Most of the good trainers these days are teaching slingshot as it gives you a bit more force to close the slide and ensures proper feeding. If my life were on the line I would use it rather than rely only on the pressure of just the recoil spring to seat the round. It is however a fraction of a second faster to just hit the slide release. If a match were on the line faster is fine. If my life were on the line I want that damn round to feed. The question is what do I want to train myself to do time and again under pressure. You decide. For me, slingshot.

DarkHorse
05-20-2009, 9:11 AM
Most of the good trainers these days are teaching slingshot as it gives you a bit more force to close the slide and ensures proper feeding. If my life were on the line I would use it rather than rely only on the pressure of just the recoil spring to seat the round. It is however a fraction of a second faster to just hit the slide release. If a match were on the line faster is fine. If my life were on the line I want that damn round to feed. The question is what do I want to train myself to do time and again under pressure. You decide. For me, slingshot.

I don't understand how the slingshot method provides more "force" for seating the bullet. The only thing actually pushing the bullet forward, under any circumstances, is the recoil spring.

I guess the only difference would be the extra distance beyond the slide stop (rearward) that you can pull the slide. For my guns, that distance is not very much, maybe 1/16". With a 16-lb spring, I'd assume that extra distance is worth about 1-lb.

STAGE 2
05-20-2009, 10:37 AM
I don't understand how the slingshot method provides more "force" for seating the bullet. The only thing actually pushing the bullet forward, under any circumstances, is the recoil spring.

It doesn't. If the pistol is going to have problems feeding the round when reloading, then its going to have problems feeding the round when shooting.

There are plenty of instructors that have all sorts of great advise for shooting, but even the best are susceptible to slinging unfounded BS to bolster their training methods.

The fraction of an inch that it takes to disengage the slide release makes absolutely no difference in the feeding of the round whatsoever.

TwitchALot
05-20-2009, 10:42 AM
I'm more fond of the slide release. If you can't operate it under stress, what makes you think you'll be able to operate the mag release, trigger, or insert mag into the well? Pick your method, and train with it, and you're not really going to have any problems. I prefer the slide release for several reasons- firstly, it's faster. Secondly, there's no guarantee that your other arm is going to be healthy enough to rack the slide all the way if you're involved in a fight. Thirdly, you don't risk not pulling the slide back far enough such that you don't chamber the round, healthy arm or not.

As for the objections to it- slide stop failure? What's more likely to happen in a gunfight, especially if you take care of your guns and replace parts as necessary (change out springs, etc)? Your slide stop failing, or your other arm being injured?

Both methods work. I think the slide stop method works better. If you don't agree, go ahead and use the slingshot method. Whatever method you do decide to use, train to use it.

ExcitedPanda
05-20-2009, 1:30 PM
On my Sig 226 I just press the slide release, I do not have to shift my grip to press the slide release and have never had a problem thus far.

Citadelgrad87
05-20-2009, 4:01 PM
I'm more fond of the slide release. If you can't operate it under stress, what makes you think you'll be able to operate the mag release, trigger, or insert mag into the well? Pick your method, and train with it, and you're not really going to have any problems. I prefer the slide release for several reasons- firstly, it's faster. Secondly, there's no guarantee that your other arm is going to be healthy enough to rack the slide all the way if you're involved in a fight. Thirdly, you don't risk not pulling the slide back far enough such that you don't chamber the round, healthy arm or not.

As for the objections to it- slide stop failure? What's more likely to happen in a gunfight, especially if you take care of your guns and replace parts as necessary (change out springs, etc)? Your slide stop failing, or your other arm being injured?

Both methods work. I think the slide stop method works better. If you don't agree, go ahead and use the slingshot method. Whatever method you do decide to use, train to use it.

Well, if we carry that "what if" through, if we assume you might lose the use of an arm, have you ever practiced reloading using only one hand? Becasue that is the extension of your reason for using the strong hand to release the slide.
I have practiced this, it's ugly and IMHO dangerous holstering a pistol backwards.

I have always trained to rely on major movements rather than fine motor skills. The "how can you pull the trigger" argument is fallacious, imho, because there is no major motor skill alternative, and more importantly, there is a metal guard that funnels my trigger finger, in a natural grip, into the movement it needs to use to make it go bang. I don't need to seek out the trigger, it is under the pad of my trigger finger. The slide release, OTOH, is up and away from a normal grip, on many weapons requires a modified grip from firing position, and requires to to use fine motor skills.

I agree wholeheartedly with your advice to pick one and rely on practice, but my .02 is differnt than your pennies.

Vanilla versus chopcolate, tastes great less filling?

Rifle Fetish
05-20-2009, 9:23 PM
See on my Ruger the slide release is very easy to get too, it feels very natural especially if the pistol is tilted a bit (it is when I reload). Also as said before the left thumb on the release will work since your hand has just sent the mag home.

Now the safety is a major pain in the butt. Its very hard to flick that thing up without adjusting my grip so from now on my pistol is condition 1, decocked, safety off. The DA pull is all the safety I need...

1911su16b870
05-20-2009, 9:51 PM
Do whatever you need to stay in the fight and win the fight. IMO racking the slide back is easier, but if one arm is wounded/out of the fight, I'm-a-usin the slide lever!

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-20-2009, 9:53 PM
Glock trains (trained when they trained me; this might have changed but I don't think so) its students in the Glock Rangemaster course to draw the slide to the rear and to teach that technique rather than operate the slide stop. The explanation given me is that this ensures that all of the available energy stored in the recoil spring is available to move the slide into battery in the most positive fashion possible.

In addition, other professional/advanced courses that I've attended stress drawing the slide rather than using the slide stop/slide release lever. Some cite the desirability of using large muscles rather than small muscles which do become less dextrous under stress, others the added reliability of getting all the energy that you can from your recoil spring to return the slide to battery.

Grasping the slide between thumb and forefinger ("slingshotting" the slide") is almost universally discouraged in every course I've attended. Reaching over the slide with the support hand and grasping the slide between the pads of the fingertips and the heel of the palm is much more positive as it uses stronger muscles, muscles which will be more likely to work even if you suffer a hand injury which disables the thumb and/or forefinger of the support hand.

If you doubt the "large muscle" theory, do 30 jumping jacks, then pick up your pistol and perform a combat reload. Try it all three ways (slide stop and both slide manipulation techniques). You might find it interesting. If you're in good shape, make it 50. While you're at it, try some dry fire as well. It's good practice.

bluestaterebel
05-20-2009, 9:58 PM
Slide release

Rifle Fetish
05-20-2009, 10:43 PM
If you doubt the "large muscle" theory, do 30 jumping jacks, then pick up your pistol and perform a combat reload. Try it all three ways (slide stop and both slide manipulation techniques). You might find it interesting. If you're in good shape, make it 50. While you're at it, try some dry fire as well. It's good practice.

Im gonna try that

TwitchALot
05-20-2009, 11:17 PM
Well, if we carry that "what if" through, if we assume you might lose the use of an arm, have you ever practiced reloading using only one hand?

I have no handgun for now, but if I did, I'd certainly try to get some more training on it (took a four day handgun course without a handgun :eek:).

Becasue that is the extension of your reason for using the strong hand to release the slide.
I have practiced this, it's ugly and IMHO dangerous holstering a pistol backwards.

Even if you couldn't use your shoe, I'm not entirely clear as to what you mean by holstering a pistol backwards. Why would you be doing that?

I have always trained to rely on major movements rather than fine motor skills. The "how can you pull the trigger" argument is fallacious, imho, because there is no major motor skill alternative, and more importantly, there is a metal guard that funnels my trigger finger, in a natural grip, into the movement it needs to use to make it go bang. I don't need to seek out the trigger, it is under the pad of my trigger finger. The slide release, OTOH, is up and away from a normal grip, on many weapons requires a modified grip from firing position, and requires to to use fine motor skills.

So... how did you get your mag out of the gun (hitting a small button perhaps?), and then stick another mag in the gun (not as easy in a high stress situation), to get to the point where you even have to worry about dropping the slide?

The argument against dropping the slide with the release is "lack of fine motor skills" - the same ones required to drop the mag, and get another mag in the gun. Slingshotting the slide (normally, anyway) requires two hands, and between assuming that I'm able to depress a small button down and assuming that my arm will be healthy enough to rack the slide, AND if it is, that in a time-critical situation, I don't "short-stroke" the slide while I'm rushing to get my gun back into the fight, I know which assumption I'd rather go with. YMMV depending on you and your gun- pick what works for you and train with it. I'm of the belief that the slide stop is better under most circumstances, but this may not always be the case.

FYI: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13234&highlight=1911+lubrication

BunnySlayer
05-20-2009, 11:37 PM
Stage2 wrote,
There are plenty of instructors that have all sorts of great advise for shooting, but even the best are susceptible to slinging unfounded BS to bolster their training methods.
This is not unfounded but street proven. That extra fraction of movement can and sometimes does make a difference. Under optimal range conditions with a clean gun it probably won't but gunfights dont usualy take place in broad daylight on the range with a guy behind you timing everything. As far as the technique being B.S. then B.S. is being taught by almost every great training school going from front site to gunsight, thunder-ranch, FTA, Surefire training institute, LFI most Police academies and the Feds as well. Additionaly this is the same move used to perform other functions like chamber checking and malfunction clearing. Less overall moves, less over all problems under the stress of a fight. If you don't care to adopt the technique, that's up to you, use what works for you but don't call something B.S. unless you want to be called on it.

Futurecollector
05-20-2009, 11:39 PM
Just let it go!!! haha

Hans Gruber
05-20-2009, 11:51 PM
Sigs for the win. The slide release is in the perfect spot to release without shifting your grip one bit. Easily executable while getting your front sight back on target.

With a stout spring in a combat handgun you don't have to worry about there being enough force to chamber a round. Plus, with the heavy spring, accidentally judo chopping yourself in the face is a real possibility trying to slingshot under stress.

One of my regular shooting drills is to start with my Sig with slide locked sitting on the bench. Two magazines, one loaded with one round, one with two rounds. I then run a Mozambique. Load, Double Tap, Reload, aimed shot in about 4 seconds or so (haven't timed myself).

Bottom line is, if you don't know your SD pistol like the back of your hand and trust that it'll go bang every time, you're in trouble.

The SoCal Gunner
05-21-2009, 12:58 AM
The argument against dropping the slide with the release is "lack of fine motor skills" - the same ones required to drop the mag, and get another mag in the gun.

:thumbsup: Good argument. I think these guys need to define what "fine motor skills" are. Is it pushing down the slide stop using whatever part of your support hand is available or is it grasping the slide and yanking it back to release it without slowing down the forward motion?

Citadelgrad87
05-21-2009, 8:06 AM
Even if you couldn't use your shoe, I'm not entirely clear as to what you mean by holstering a pistol backwards. Why would you be doing that?

That's how I was taught to reload a pistol one handed. Dump the mag, let it fall, holser the pistol BACKWARDS, so the mag well faces the front, then let go of it and grab the magazine (this drill will make you re think where you carry spare mags, then slap the mag home and unholster, then use the mag release, because you cannot use your other hand. ls



So... how did you get your mag out of the gun (hitting a small button perhaps?), and then stick another mag in the gun (not as easy in a high stress situation), to get to the point where you even have to worry about dropping the slide?

The argument against dropping the slide with the release is "lack of fine motor skills" - the same ones required to drop the mag, and get another mag in the gun. Slingshotting the slide (normally, anyway) requires two hands, and between assuming that I'm able to depress a small button down and assuming that my arm will be healthy enough to rack the slide, AND if it is, that in a time-critical situation, I don't "short-stroke" the slide while I'm rushing to get my gun back into the fight, I know which assumption I'd rather go with. YMMV depending on you and your gun- pick what works for you and train with it. I'm of the belief that the slide stop is better under most circumstances, but this may not always be the case.

FYI: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13234&highlight=1911+lubrication\

Again, the trigger, the mag release etc are not, IMHO, examples to use in this discussion, 1) there is NO OTHER WAY to pull the trigger or dump a mag, so there's no point in seeking a better way, and
2) the tirgger on every pistol I have handled sits under the pad of my trigger finger at a normal hold, samw with American style mag releases, they are right there, while on many, I need to hunt out the slide release.

Other than the above painfully slow one handed reload, RELOADS require two hands, and the slide release overhand grip is simply the last step in my reloads. SO you're using two hands anyway, right?

But I totally agree, try both and use what you're best at.

TwitchALot
05-21-2009, 10:04 AM
That's how I was taught to reload a pistol one handed. Dump the mag, let it fall, holser the pistol BACKWARDS, so the mag well faces the front, then let go of it and grab the magazine (this drill will make you re think where you carry spare mags, then slap the mag home and unholster, then use the mag release, because you cannot use your other hand. ls

:eek: And what if after you've drawn your gun, your shirt covers up your holster (ie. CCW situation) and you've only got one arm? I've never had formal training on the matter, but most of the one handed reloading techniques utilize other objects (shoe, holster, etc) to rack and usually the legs to hold the pistol down so you can get the mag in. And with an empty gun, this isn't terribly dangerous (not to mention the trigger guard). Holstering a pistol backwards, especially if your holster isn't conductive to that because of locking mechanisms for retention, does not seem productive to me in most cases.


Again, the trigger, the mag release etc are not, IMHO, examples to use in this discussion, 1) there is NO OTHER WAY to pull the trigger or dump a mag, so there's no point in seeking a better way, and
2) the tirgger on every pistol I have handled sits under the pad of my trigger finger at a normal hold, samw with American style mag releases, they are right there, while on many, I need to hunt out the slide release.

Other than the above painfully slow one handed reload, RELOADS require two hands, and the slide release overhand grip is simply the last step in my reloads. SO you're using two hands anyway, right?

But I totally agree, try both and use what you're best at.

That's irrelevant. If you can somehow hit a little button (ie. magazine release), grab a box, and put it into a hole about the size of that box, you can hit the slide stop. As for the trigger- your finger shouldn't even be on it unless you are ready to shoot, which may or may not coincide with when you draw your weapon in the first place.

What method works best IMO depends on the shooter and gun. Maybe on a 1911, if you can't reach the slide stop without significantly shifting your grip, it may be better to slingshot. The same may be the case for the Sig if you're a leftie. My position, however, is that while the best method for you may depend on the circumstances, the slide release is preferred whenever possible for the reasons I have stated.

Now if you do have both hands available, the argument still stands. If you use the slide stop, you can reacquire your grip much faster than if you slingshotted. In fact, assuming equal skill and circumstances with their respective pistols, I'd be willing to bet that using the slide stop to chamber is ALWAYS faster than slingshotting, one handed or two handed. Thus, even if you have two hands, it still makes sense to utilize the fastest method.

STAGE 2
05-21-2009, 10:20 AM
This is not unfounded but street proven.

Really? Then lets see the real world examples that show racking the slide made the difference between life and death.


That extra fraction of movement can and sometimes does make a difference. Under optimal range conditions with a clean gun it probably won't but gunfights dont usualy take place in broad daylight on the range with a guy behind you timing everything.

The time of day and location have nothing to do with the function of your gun. And since most folks who carry are responsible gun owners, what they carry is a tested, reliable, clean and properly lubed weapon. So its no different than the range.

I've seen plenty of people cause a malfunction by riding the slide home or because of wet conditions not be able to pull the slide sufficiently back. Please show me a real world example of where the extra fraction of movement makes a difference .


As far as the technique being B.S. then B.S. is being taught by almost every great training school going from front site to gunsight, thunder-ranch, FTA, Surefire training institute, LFI most Police academies and the Feds as well. Additionaly this is the same move used to perform other functions like chamber checking and malfunction clearing. Less overall moves, less over all problems under the stress of a fight. If you don't care to adopt the technique, that's up to you, use what works for you but don't call something B.S. unless you want to be called on it.

Then let me make myself perfectly clear. The technique itself isn't BS. If thats how you want to reload its perfectly fine. Its advantageous in that its going to work on every single semi auto.

What is BS is the justification that these instructors use, specifically the fine motor skills argument. It take fine motor skills to pull the trigger. It take fine motor skills to eject a mag. It takes fine motor skills to insert a new mag. If you can do all these things, then you can hit a slide release no problem.

And most importantly, any use of the hand/fingers is a fine motor skill. So you are still using fine motor skills regardless of which method you use. So if fine motor skills are useless under stress, then both methods are equally flawed.

STAGE 2
05-21-2009, 10:24 AM
Again, the trigger, the mag release etc are not, IMHO, examples to use in this discussion, 1) there is NO OTHER WAY to pull the trigger or dump a mag, so there's no point in seeking a better way, and 2) the tirgger on every pistol I have handled sits under the pad of my trigger finger at a normal hold, samw with American style mag releases, they are right there, while on many, I need to hunt out the slide release.

I don't know about you, but for an overwhelming majority of shooters, the mag release isn't "right there" for american style pistols.

And the trigger and mag release is relevant because they prove the point that fine motor skills don't degrade an appreciable amount under stress. If you can hit one, you can hit the other.

And as I said above, racking the slide is still a fine motor skill. Its going to be just as susceptible to stress as hitting the slide release, plus it as the potential for human error.

Citadelgrad87
05-21-2009, 5:24 PM
Vanilla, chocolate, potato, pototo.

Whatever works for you, I would encourage you to practice.

We agree to disagree, but I'd bet we agree on more than any 2 people you could pick off the street.

Take care.

j6p2004
05-21-2009, 5:48 PM
For experienced handgunners using his/her own personal gun, it probably does not make a big difference. However, for those shooting under intense stress with a gun he/she is not familiar with, it might be easier and simpler to have one single task for each finger/muscle group: index for pulling the trigger, thumb for releasing the mag, and the support hand for racking the slide. JMHO.

calixt0
05-21-2009, 8:36 PM
My eaa doesn't need either... with a full mag after it locks open from last shot fired slam a the mag home and it automatically returns to battery... Man I love that gun.

Citadelgrad87
05-21-2009, 8:43 PM
My eaa doesn't need either... with a full mag after it locks open from last shot fired slam a the mag home and it automatically returns to battery... Man I love that gun.

My P7 similarly will return to battery after squeezing the frame in a normal firing grip.

pTa
05-22-2009, 6:29 PM
My eaa doesn't need either... with a full mag after it locks open from last shot fired slam a the mag home and it automatically returns to battery... Man I love that gun.

Sounds like a rounded off stop lever / if yours is a std EAA.

DANGERCLOSE
05-22-2009, 9:54 PM
we strictly teach to only use the slingshot method or the overhand method. nothing to do with stress or anything. more related to using all available coils of the spring per manufacturers manual. some firearms have an almost 1/4 inch gap between slide stop/catch and full recoil. we just try not to chance it. try shooting with full finger gloves sometimes. i always rack the slide with my hand only, when loading, unloading, clearing, and malfunction clearing. sure i have practiced with one hand only, but i rack it fully with something like a duty belt, boot, etc.

BunnySlayer
05-23-2009, 9:29 PM
Stage2 wrote,
Really? Then lets see the real world examples that show racking the slide made the difference between life and death.

You've created an impossible argument. Take a look at any gunfight that ended with a jammed pistol and a dead operator. Can you tell me using this technique would not have made a difference? No. The case can still be made for the technique. Additionaly the technique is used and taught not just because it's a bit more effective in seating a round but because it's the same motion used for clearing type 1 and 2 malfunctions and performing a chamber check. One motion for several different operations. Any trainer from guns to martial arts to piano can tell you that being able to use one technique for multiple problem solving is advantageous.

Also wrote,
The time of day and location have nothing to do with the function of your gun. And since most folks who carry are responsible gun owners, what they carry is a tested, reliable, clean and properly lubed weapon. So its no different than the range.
So your saying a Friday night in Fhalusia during a sandstorm is no different than a pleasant day on the range? Being kicked in the head while lying in the rain in a muddy 7-11 parking lot is a day in the park and neither will effect your weapon being able to feed? Someone needs a reality check. Such circumstances have little to do with gun maintenance or owner responsability. Gunfights are seldom like the range. That's why we train for them.

And again,

What is BS is the justification that these instructors use, specifically the fine motor skills argument. It take fine motor skills to pull the trigger. It take fine motor skills to eject a mag. It takes fine motor skills to insert a new mag. If you can do all these things, then you can hit a slide release no problem.

And most importantly, any use of the hand/fingers is a fine motor skill. So you are still using fine motor skills regardless of which method you use. So if fine motor skills are useless under stress, then both methods are equally flawed.

We are in partial agreement on this. Anyone who's been in a car accident or even a schoolyard brawl knows fine motor skills are affected by stress. ANY fine motor skill will probably deteriorate in a fight. So why not teach the one that works for more than one problem? I use and have used this technique in matches and have even been known to win on occaision. I am not significantly slowed down at all. Again instructors from Jeff Cooper to Gabe Suarez, Bill Murphy, Chuck Taylor, Clint Smith all teach it and all are gunfight survivors, not arm chair commandos. If it doesnt work for you, don't use it but don't put it or them down because you don't subscribe to it.

M. Sage
05-23-2009, 10:20 PM
I have a P95 and my ex-Marine/current SDPD friend told me that I should not use the slide release to return my gun to battery but instead should pull the slide and let go. He said of course the slide release method is ok in a tactical situation, but its hard on the gun to do it all the time.

For some reason I like using my thumb, but I have stopped doing that for now.

Whats your advice?

BTW forgive me if my terms or nomenclature are off..

No, using a slide release on a loaded gun is not harder on the pistol. Using a slide release on an empty pistol is hard on it, but then so is pulling the slide back and letting it go.

Which you use to reload depends on your handgun to a large degree. I have trouble getting the slide releases on Glocks to work (standard-size release), so the slingshot method is the way to go there for me. My Sig's slide release works easily and is within reach, so I use that.

Rifle Fetish
05-23-2009, 10:51 PM
No, using a slide release on a loaded gun is not harder on the pistol. Using a slide release on an empty pistol is hard on it, but then so is pulling the slide back and letting it go.

Which you use to reload depends on your handgun to a large degree. I have trouble getting the slide releases on Glocks to work (standard-size release), so the slingshot method is the way to go there for me. My Sig's slide release works easily and is within reach, so I use that.


Yeah the Sig and the Ruger are very similar...

Thanks for your input

Gump
05-23-2009, 11:48 PM
I always use the slide release because i used to use the "sling shot method" but I would notice that after emptying the mag the slide wouldn't catch about half the time. But when i use the slide release it worked every time. This is in a sig sp2022 in .40

calixt0
05-24-2009, 9:38 PM
Sounds like a rounded off stop lever / if yours is a std EAA.

nope been like that since new... the stop lever is nice and clean and is actually square... when I bought it I wondered if something was wrong. Called and talked to them. said it was a feature they had for only a few years on production guns and was originally intended for race guns and military usage. They also said they wouldn't be continuing simply based on how many calls they got asking if something was wrong.

QuarterBoreGunner
05-24-2009, 10:28 PM
Called and talked to them. said it was a feature they had for only a few years on production guns and was originally intended for race guns and military usage.

I'm sorry, but I have to call shenanigans on this - this happens on a number of guns under certain circumstances, but I will absolutely guarantee that no manufacturer does this on purpose. Does it release the slide 100% of the time you slap a mag home? If the answer is less that 'yes 100% of the time' then that's not a 'undocumented feature' it's flaw that training will overcome.

STAGE 2
05-25-2009, 10:52 PM
You've created an impossible argument.

I didn't create anything. You said that it is street proven that racking the slide makes a difference. Well, lets see the proof.

Take a look at any gunfight that ended with a jammed pistol and a dead operator.

Wrong. Pistols jam for all sorts of reasons. This doesn't mean that it jammed because of the method of reload.



Additionaly the technique is used and taught not just because it's a bit more effective in seating a round but because it's the same motion used for clearing type 1 and 2 malfunctions and performing a chamber check. One motion for several different operations. Any trainer from guns to martial arts to piano can tell you that being able to use one technique for multiple problem solving is advantageous.

I don't dispute this. Nor do I disupte the fact that this technique can be used on any pistol whereas the slide release cant. That said, using the slide release is going to be faster. Its also going to be what you are going to use if you are injured or your hands are wet/bloody etc.

Thats the point. Both have their advantages. I'm not saying one is better. Its a matter of personal preference. What I am saying is that people who say that one method is "wrong" are full of BS.



So your saying a Friday night in Fhalusia during a sandstorm is no different than a pleasant day on the range?

If I'm in Fallujah (sp) then I'm carrying an M4, a couple of frags and upwards of 100 rounds, so what happens to my pistol is at the back of my mind. In other words, thats an irrelevant comparison.


Being kicked in the head while lying in the rain in a muddy 7-11 parking lot is a day in the park and neither will effect your weapon being able to feed?

Another bad example. If I'm being kicked in the head while on the ground, then reloading, in either fashion, is going to be next to impossible.


Someone needs a reality check. Such circumstances have little to do with gun maintenance or owner responsability. Gunfights are seldom like the range. That's why we train for them.

While there are outliers, if you are in a gunfight, its going to last a fee seconds and involve less than 3 rounds. In other words, reloading isn't going to be a factor.

And thats the point. Since we aren't going to be doing the low crawl through the mud or treking through the swamp, if your gun can handle hundreds of rounds at the range, then it can handle a gunfight.



We are in partial agreement on this. Anyone who's been in a car accident or even a schoolyard brawl knows fine motor skills are affected by stress. ANY fine motor skill will probably deteriorate in a fight. So why not teach the one that works for more than one problem?

Teach whatever you want. Just dont feed me BS that doesn't stand up to medical science or logic.


I use and have used this technique in matches and have even been known to win on occaision. I am not significantly slowed down at all. Again instructors from Jeff Cooper to Gabe Suarez, Bill Murphy, Chuck Taylor, Clint Smith all teach it and all are gunfight survivors, not arm chair commandos. If it doesnt work for you, don't use it but don't put it or them down because you don't subscribe to it.

The you are reading something I havent written. Nowhere here have I put down anything. I've simply said that people who make the "fine motor skills" argument are full of BS.

BunnySlayer
05-26-2009, 11:43 AM
Stage2 wrote,
Quote:
Take a look at any gunfight that ended with a jammed pistol and a dead operator.

Wrong. Pistols jam for all sorts of reasons. This doesn't mean that it jammed because of the method of reload.
Not wrong. They do jam for all sorts of reasons. That's why I use a surer method of making sure a round chambers. Your argument comes no closer to proving anything than does mine.

That said, using the slide release is going to be faster. Its also going to be what you are going to use if you are injured or your hands are wet/bloody etc.

On that we will have to agree to disagree. Smaller movements are not easier under the conditions you specify.

Thats the point. Both have their advantages. I'm not saying one is better. Its a matter of personal preference. What I am saying is that people who say that one method is "wrong" are full of BS.

On this we are in complete agreement.

If I'm in Fallujah (sp) then I'm carrying an M4, a couple of frags and upwards of 100 rounds, so what happens to my pistol is at the back of my mind. In other words, thats an irrelevant comparison.
Wrong, this is where it starts to get really relavant. I am a firm believer that Mr. Murphy is alive and well and trying daily to gain access to my guns ammo and magazines. When your M4 is empty and you've chucked all your frags. You'd better hope your irrelavant pistol is ready to rock.

Quote:
Being kicked in the head while lying in the rain in a muddy 7-11 parking lot is a day in the park and neither will effect your weapon being able to feed?

Another bad example. If I'm being kicked in the head while on the ground, then reloading, in either fashion, is going to be next to impossible.
You're right! Reloading will be next to impossible. That's why I'm using the surest method I can. I want a round in the chamber. I really hate being kicked in the head. It's hard on other peoples shoes. :D

While there are outliers, if you are in a gunfight, its going to last a fee seconds and involve less than 3 rounds. In other words, reloading isn't going to be a factor.

And thats the point. Since we aren't going to be doing the low crawl through the mud or treking through the swamp, if your gun can handle hundreds of rounds at the range, then it can handle a gunfight.

I'm aware of the triple three rule, Three rounds, three feet, three seconds. I think Mr. Murphy makes up these statistics to get us to leave our spare mags and flashlights home! Statistically I shouldn't be involved in a gunfight at all so why bother carrying that heavy thing? Right? For the same reason I have car insurance I have guns. I hope never to use it but it would be silly not to have it. I believe in preparing for the exceptions as I know Mr. Murphy would just love to make me his personal example of exceptions to rules.

Teach whatever you want. Just dont feed me BS that doesn't stand up to medical science or logic.
Medical science and logic? What did I say in the paragraph you high lighted that disputed medical science or logic? I thought we were discussing reloading our pistols.

The you are reading something I havent written. Nowhere here have I put down anything. I've simply said that people who make the "fine motor skills" argument are full of BS.

Then possibly I have misunderstood you and this debate has been for naught. Either way, it's still been fun!

Sniper3142
05-26-2009, 1:30 PM
I used to use the Slide Stop to release the slide all the time. We were taught both methods in the USMC.

These days (and for the past 10+ years) I've used the overhand sling shot method.

The reasons are simple:

1. The overhand sling shot method works on just about every semi-auto pistol, regardless of where the slide lever is or its shape/size. If I pick up someone elses pistol and have to use, I don't have to "adjust" to that weapons slide stop/release controls.

2. I've actually seen the results of using the slide stop lever to release the slide over time. One S&W pistol (5906) that is over 25 years old shows a rounding off on the slide because of it. I also have a 1911 (SA TRP Operator) with about 20,000 rounds thru it (yes, you read that right) and there is some slight wear in that area. However, that pistol has a lot of wear everywhere so I'm not sure using the slide stop lever had anything to do with those marks.

Has many people already said, use whichever method you want and Train with it.

:)

GM4spd
05-30-2009, 5:43 AM
Interesting point---I guess either way is ok. I never thought about it before
but I usually shoot a 1911 pistol with two hands,thus my left thumb is in
a good position to drop the slide release. I've been doing it so long,I doubt
if I would try another method. Pete