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View Full Version : Need Calguns Help on Important C&R Legal Issue!


oaklander
05-19-2009, 12:45 AM
The accepted knowledge around here is that California requires ALL long guns that are less than 50 years old to go through an FFL.

This appears to apply, even if the long gun is a C&R, and is shipped 03 FFL (or 01 FFL) to 03 FFL in the state.

I think this might be wrong. . .

If I have an 03 FFL, and I want to order a rifle from out of state, and that rifle is on the federal C&R list, I SHOULD be able to receive it, regardless of its age. Isn't that correct?

Thoughts? Statutes?

oaklander
05-19-2009, 1:04 AM
Found something:

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/topic-summaries/506-a-brief-explanation-of-antique-curio-and-relic-firearms.html



Q2. If a long gun that is less than 50 years, but is otherwise a curio or relic (because it is either certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum or is a long gun which derives a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre), is transferred in interstate commerce must it be sent to "California dealer?"

A2. Yes. Generally, persons are prohibited from acquiring firearms from out-of-state. Specifically, 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) provides that:

It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State.

Multiple exceptions to this general rule exist. One exception stated above is made for "licensed collectors," which is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(13) as any person licensed to acquire, hold, or dispose of "curios or relics" under 18 U.S.C. 923. This exception exists because 18 U.S.C. 923(c) expressly allows "licensed collectors" to transport firearms in interstate commerce.

gunsmith
05-19-2009, 3:22 AM
7x57 may know, or try the c&r section of the forum...then get back to us over in 2A and let us know!

Quiet
05-19-2009, 4:31 AM
Penal Code 12078
(t)(1) The waiting period described in Sections 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077.
(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

Penal Code 12072
(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.
(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department. If Internet service is unavailable to either the department of the licensee due to a technical or other malfunction, or a federal firearms licensee who is located outside California does not possess a computer or have Internet access, alternate means of communication, including facsimile or telephone, shall be made available for a licensee to obtain a verification number in order to comply with this section. This subdivision shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of a short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun, as defined in Section 12020, or to a machinegun as defined in Section 12200, or to an assault weapon as defined in Sections 12276, 12276.1, and 12276.5.
(B) For every identification number request received pursuant to this section, the department shall determine whether the intended recipient is on the centralized list of firearms dealers pursuant to this section, or the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12083, or the centralized list of firearms manufacturers pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12086.
(C) If the department finds that the intended recipient is on one of these lists, the department shall issue to the inquiring party, a unique identification number for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer. In addition to the unique verification number, the department may provide to the inquiring party information necessary for determining the eligibility of the intended recipient to receive the firearm.
The person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm shall provide the unique verification number to the recipient along with the firearms upon delivery, in a manner to be determined by the department.
(D) If the department finds that the intended recipient is not on one of these lists, the department shall notify the inquiring party that the intended recipient is ineligible to receive the firearm.
(E) The department shall prescribe the manner in which the verification numbers may be requested via the Internet, or by alternate means of communication, such as by facsimile or telephone, including all required enrollment information and procedures.

EOD Guy
05-19-2009, 5:47 AM
The accepted knowledge around here is that California requires ALL long guns that are less than 50 years old to go through an FFL.

This appears to apply, even if the long gun is a C&R, and is shipped 03 FFL (or 01 FFL) to 03 FFL in the state.

I think this might be wrong. . .

If I have an 03 FFL, and I want to order a rifle from out of state, and that rifle is on the federal C&R list, I SHOULD be able to receive it, regardless of its age. Isn't that correct?

Thoughts? Statutes?

That is incorrect. Penal Code Section 12072(d) requires that all firearms transfers in California must be conducted through a California dealer. There are a few exceptions but there is no exception for C&R FFL holders. The greater that 50 year old C&R long gun exception is available to anyone eligible to possess firearms in California, licensed or not. A C&R FFL allows you to comply with Federal interstate transfer requirements and receive those 50 year old longs guns directly.

The exception you quoted in post #2 is to Federal law, not California law. Federal regulations (27CFR §478.58) require that licensees comply with all state laws. The BATF publication "State Laws and Published Ordnances - Firearms" is actually part of the regulation and is incorporated by reference into the regulation by 27CFR §478.24(b).

Dr Rockso
05-19-2009, 7:00 AM
PC 12072 establishes that firearm sales need to go through a California dealer. PC 12078 provides some exceptions to that law, one of them being if the firearm is a long gun 50+ years old (PC 12078(t)). Interestingly PC 12078(c) is the interfamilial exemption, so if you have parents/children or grandparents/grandchildren out of state you can presumably purchase any C&R firearm from them without going through a CA dealer (you're federally legal if you have an 03 FFL).

oaklander
05-19-2009, 7:24 AM
Will do!

7x57 may know, or try the c&r section of the forum...then get back to us over in 2A and let us know!

M. D. Van Norman
05-19-2009, 12:12 PM
Is the rifle being sold in California? No? Then how can California laws regarding the sales of firearms apply?

Almost no one agrees with me on this. However, for that matter, no one can reference the section of code that specifies how you must import a firearm you acquire in legal interstate commerce.

ke6guj
05-19-2009, 12:23 PM
Interestingly PC 12078(c) is the interfamilial exemption, so if you have parents/children or grandparents/grandchildren out of state you can presumably purchase any C&R firearm from them without going through a CA dealer (you're federally legal if you have an 03 FFL).

that is interesting :D

madmike
05-19-2009, 12:38 PM
I am very interested in this as well. It would be nice if one day we could use our 03ffl's just like people in free states do.

-madmike.

7x57
05-19-2009, 1:15 PM
7x57 may know, or try the c&r section of the forum...then get back to us over in 2A and let us know!

7x57 doesn't know. 7x57 has a great deal more opinions on the original intent of the federal Constitution than he does on the actual caselaw on modern state laws. :rolleyes:

7x57

wildhawker
05-19-2009, 1:51 PM
7x57 doesn't know. 7x57 has a great deal more opinions on the original intent of the federal Constitution than he does on the actual caselaw on modern state laws. :rolleyes:

7x57

7x57 is writing in the third person today, and wildhawker enjoys 7x57's typically-sarcastic commentary on modern state laws. :chris:

courteousgavin
05-19-2009, 3:06 PM
Is the rifle being sold in California? No? Then how can California laws regarding the sales of firearms apply?

Almost no one agrees with me on this. However, for that matter, no one can reference the section of code that specifies how you must import a firearm you acquire in legal interstate commerce.

I think it has to do with where the firearm is being acquired. Some people seem to think that when you order something from outside of California and have it shipped to your house that you are really acquiring the item outside of California. But I know that UPS at least says the item still belongs to the shipper until it is released to the consignee by the UPS delivery driver. It's like you pay for it out of state but acquire it inside California. I get the impression that the DOJ feels the same way about it.

M. D. Van Norman
05-19-2009, 3:27 PM
What kind of tax does one pay on an out-of-state purchase? ;)

7x57
05-19-2009, 3:46 PM
7x57 is writing in the third person today, and wildhawker enjoys 7x57's typically-sarcastic commentary on modern state laws. :chris:

7x57 thanks wildhawker. ;)

7x57

CSACANNONEER
05-19-2009, 3:52 PM
What kind of tax does one pay on an out-of-state purchase? ;)

You are bound by law to pay the state use tax when you import something into this state. You should report any untaxed purchases to the state and pay the tax on the at least once a year. I'm sure you already knew that and if you ever buy something from out of state or at a garage sale, you are planning to report your purchase to the state and pay the appropriate taxes. Right? I know that you'ld never do anything illegal.:rolleyes:;)

oaklander
05-19-2009, 4:52 PM
Well, it looks like I didn't get the answer I wanted - but that thing about intrafamily transfers is interesting!!!

gunsmith
05-19-2009, 5:49 PM
7x57 is writing in the third person today, and wildhawker enjoys 7x57's typically-sarcastic commentary on modern state laws. :chris:

its just logical Captain

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-19-2009, 7:43 PM
WHAT IS THE GUN

M. D. Van Norman
05-19-2009, 7:51 PM
You are bound by law to pay the state use tax when you import something into this state.…

Precisely. :cool:

trashman
05-19-2009, 8:14 PM
7x57 is writing in the third person today, and wildhawker enjoys 7x57's typically-sarcastic commentary on modern state laws. :chris:

This cracks me up. I mean, er...Trashman means that this 3rd person referral stuff cracks Trashman up.

Bob Dole would be proud.

--Neil

obeygiant
05-19-2009, 8:21 PM
Well, it looks like I didn't get the answer I wanted - but that thing about intrafamily transfers is interesting!!!

Indeed very interesting. Here it is for anyone that didn't look it up already.

California Penal Code Section 12078
(c) (1) Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the
infrequent transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun by gift,
bequest, intestate succession, or other means by one individual to
another if both individuals are members of the same immediate family.

Mssr. Eleganté
05-19-2009, 9:45 PM
What kind of tax does one pay on an out-of-state purchase? ;)

Doesn't that back up CalDOJ's position?

If you really acquired the firearm in another State then wouldn't you have paid the sales tax in that State instead of paying California "use tax"?

Another thing that seems to back up CalDOJ's position on this issue is the bill analysis done by the Assembly Committee on Public Safety on AB 991. AB 991 was the bill that required C&R FFL's to register C&R handguns that they acquired while out of state.

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_991_cfa_19970421_074915_asm_comm.html

6) Collector Issue .

a) Background . California law is predicated on handgun registration at
point of transfer. Last year, the Legislature enacted AB 113 (W.
Murray), Chapter 668, Statutes of 1996.

AB 113 provided an exemption from the waiting period for the delivery, sale or transfer by a licensed firearms dealer of a curio or relic handgun to a licensed collector with a current DOJ Certificate of Eligibility (COE). A COE is a fingerprint-based background check. The certificate is issued annually. The transaction must still be registered with the DOJ on DROS forms as is the case with other weapons. Fees may be charged.

b) 1996 Federal law change . In October of 1996, the Federal Government enacted a law which allows the actual delivery of curio and relic firearms to a federal firearms licensee outside the state where his/her licensed premises are located.

Prior to the 1996 change, the delivery had to occur at the person's licensed premises. The federal law resulted in the ability to engage in behavior outside of California which resulted in a loss of state jurisdiction.

c) AB 991 . AB 991 mandates that if a licensed collector whose licensed premises are within California acquires a handgun curio or relic outside of this state, the collector must within five days after transporting the gun into
California register the acquisition with DOJ.

You can see that they felt that transactions involving firearms being shipped to FFL's in California come under the full jurisdiction of California law. I think that the Courts give more leeway to CalDOJ positions that follow the intent of the Legislature.

M. D. Van Norman
05-19-2009, 9:56 PM
Thanks for the interesting bit of history. I didn’t know about the federal changes in 1996, but that was before my time as a gun owner.

I’ll let lie the matter of paying and repaying sales tax on used goods. ;)

artherd
05-19-2009, 11:21 PM
WHAT IS THE GUN

Long Rifle ;)