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markw
05-18-2009, 11:36 AM
How do CA handgun laws apply to active duty military that are non-residents stationed in CA? I know they can "register" AW's, but what about non-rostered handguns? Do they have to register them within 60 days? Can they sell them via PPT? I know they don't have to register cars here, pay state income tax on their military pay, etc. Just wondered how the roster effects them. What about purchasing a weapon in CA?

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 12:10 PM
How do CA handgun laws apply to active duty military that are non-residents stationed in CA? I know they can "register" AW's, but what about non-rostered handguns? Do they have to register them within 60 days? Can they sell them via PPT? I know they don't have to register cars here, pay state income tax on their military pay, etc. Just wondered how the roster effects them. What about purchasing a weapon in CA?

You have to do a personal handgun importer/ownership record form on your handguns. Once here you are subject to the same regulations as everyone else since you are now a resident by Military orders. You can sell any handguns you may have brought with you and you may purchase anything here with your ID and Military orders.

Librarian
05-18-2009, 12:34 PM
You have to do a personal handgun importer/ownership record form on your handguns.

Do you?

PC 12001(n) says (n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means
an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
...
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.
Seems to me that Uncle Sugar moves his military folk for his convenience, not that those Uncle moves come here "as a resident of this state."

Might be wrong, though.

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 1:39 PM
Do you?

PC 12001(n) says Seems to me that Uncle Sugar moves his military folk for his convenience, not that those Uncle moves come here "as a resident of this state."

Might be wrong, though.

Even if your home of record is another state, you are still a "resident" of California by way of Military orders. When you purchase a new firearm you still write "California" as your residence, show your drivers licence from whatever state you are from and your PCS orders as proof of residence (and whatever otehr BS is required).

ST5MF
05-18-2009, 3:22 PM
...

rp55
05-18-2009, 4:01 PM
Does anyone know if anyone in on active duty has fought PCS orders into California because of the gun situation here?

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 4:17 PM
I actually use my the address on my TXDL and my TX CHL.

No issues purchasing in TX or CA.

In CA I use MIL ID and orders.

The best of both worlds.

Dual residency is adressed in the PC as well, someone who knows better can chime in here, just be sure you are working within the law.

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 4:28 PM
Does anyone know if anyone in on active duty has fought PCS orders into California because of the gun situation here?

If you want to embarass yourself and look like a complete and total moron I suppose you could try.... Don't think it'll go well for ya though.

ST5MF
05-18-2009, 4:37 PM
Does anyone know if anyone in on active duty has fought PCS orders into California because of the gun situation here?

You can actually bring in a lot of stuff legally with orders from out of state to include black rifles. There is paper work and fees involved however. and the process must be completed and approved prior to importing into CA.

NFA items are a NO GO.

markw
05-18-2009, 6:53 PM
Dual residency is adressed in the PC as well, someone who knows better can chime in here, just be sure you are working within the law.

Active duty military, unless they change residency to California are considered "Non-Residents". No CA income tax, no car registration, etc. I was in that boat until I retired in 2006, and lost my exempt status. DMV has forms you can fill out if you're active duty and have CA plates on your car, military non-resident, $46/yr for tags. We were talking about how that worked around the campfire the other night with some guys that were still active duty, and how that effected their ability to purchase non-rostered stuff, as they can purchase it when home on leave or something. They're not dual residents as they never establish residency here.

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 7:01 PM
Active duty military, unless they change residency to California are considered "Non-Residents". No CA income tax, no car registration, etc. I was in that boat until I retired in 2006, and lost my exempt status. DMV has forms you can fill out if you're active duty and have CA plates on your car, military non-resident, $46/yr for tags. We were talking about how that worked around the campfire the other night with some guys that were still active duty, and how that effected their ability to purchase non-rostered stuff, as they can purchase it when home on leave or something. They're not dual residents as they never establish residency here.

Please, tell me more about these DMV forms! I tried to find them when I moved here and was told there was no such thing, it would really save me some loot on my vehicles registration coming up!

markw
05-18-2009, 7:16 PM
Here's the link to the dmv stuff. Used it every year, it did mean you had to go show your military ID to a clerk, but on newer cars it meant saving $$$$.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/militaryvr.htm#regfees

Being in the military, you should know that you're not a resident of California unless you choose to be.

So I'm under the impression that someone on active duty can use a military ID and copy of their orders to purchase a firearm here in CA. Or if they elect to purchase one back home and bring it back with them. I know the navy was really finicky about firearms in Navy housing that was off base. What if they want to sell something? PPT with military id and copy of orders? Are they required to register handguns they bring into the state even though they're never establishing residency?

edit: It appears they're exempt from the "Importer of hanguns" because they don't meet the "as resident of this state" part.

120001 (n)
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.

Googling shows they can purchase a handgun here with ID card and copy of PCS orders. Is the same required for selling a used handgun via PPT?

scc1909
05-18-2009, 8:05 PM
Even if your home of record is another state, you are still a "resident" of California by way of Military orders. When you purchase a new firearm you still write "California" as your residence, show your drivers licence from whatever state you are from and your PCS orders as proof of residence (and whatever otehr BS is required).

This information is not correct. Call your JAG for the official verbiage, but back in the late '40s SCOTUS ruled that active duty personnel have the right to claim whichever State or US Territory they wish to for residency purposes, irrespective of where they are stationed or their home of record. Consult the JAG also for specific information about your legal responsibilities as a gun owner in California.

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 8:29 PM
This information is not correct. Call your JAG for the official verbiage, but back in the late '40s SCOTUS ruled that active duty personnel have the right to claim whichever State or US Territory they wish to for residency purposes, irrespective of where they are stationed or their home of record. Consult the JAG also for specific information about your legal responsibilities as a gun owner in California.

So let me ask you this, as a "non-resident" what do you put on the 4473 where it asks for your state of residence?

Quiet
05-18-2009, 8:30 PM
Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11
State of residence.
The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

scc1909
05-18-2009, 9:35 PM
Public Law 94-455
The terms "legal residence" and "domicile" are essentially interchangeable. In brief, they are used to denote that place where you
have your permanent home and to which, whenever you are absent, you have the intention of returning. The Soldiers’ and Sailors’
Civil Relief Act protects your military pay from the income taxes of the State in which you reside by reason of military orders unless
that is also your legal residence/domicile. The Act further provides that no change in your State of legal residence/domicile will
occur solely as a result of your being ordered to a new duty station.

There's lots more in there. If you are so inclined, read that law and the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act of 1940. But most importantly of all, consult the JAG on your specific rights and responsibilities. Nothing anybody writes on an internet forum is a substitute for getting a qualified legal opinion.

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 9:39 PM
This information is not correct. Call your JAG for the official verbiage, but back in the late '40s SCOTUS ruled that active duty personnel have the right to claim whichever State or US Territory they wish to for residency purposes, irrespective of where they are stationed or their home of record. Consult the JAG also for specific information about your legal responsibilities as a gun owner in California.

Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11
State of residence.
The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

hmmm...

Deamer
05-18-2009, 11:29 PM
This information is not correct. Call your JAG for the official verbiage, but back in the late '40s SCOTUS ruled that active duty personnel have the right to claim whichever State or US Territory they wish to for residency purposes, irrespective of where they are stationed or their home of record. Consult the JAG also for specific information about your legal responsibilities as a gun owner in California.

I believe that is true for just about everything but firearms. here is the info from the ATF website.

"A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. "

Probably was added to a gun control bill so the ATF could limit us more.

CavTrooper
05-19-2009, 6:10 AM
This information is not correct. Call your JAG for the official verbiage, but back in the late '40s SCOTUS ruled that active duty personnel have the right to claim whichever State or US Territory they wish to for residency purposes, irrespective of where they are stationed or their home of record. Consult the JAG also for specific information about your legal responsibilities as a gun owner in California.

So let me ask you this, as a "non-resident" what do you put on the 4473 where it asks for your state of residence?

Since you ignored it last time, here it is again.

scc1909
05-19-2009, 6:34 AM
Wes, it is true that Federal and State Agencies apply their regulations and laws different to each other (ATF, IRS, HHS, CA-DoJ, etc.). However, for the past nearly 70 years the Federal gov't has held that active duty service members' State of Legal Residence is the State listed on their Leave and Earnings Statement. On that level, anyone who claims that you are a "resident" of the State in which you are stationed is simply wrong.

That said, one is always subject to the laws of the State in which one has physical presence. For instance, a NV resident stationed here can't ignore the speed limit in Cali based on the argument that the speed limit in NV is higher. Likewise, one cannot ignore Cali's gun laws when one comes here. This is why I suggested markw consult his JAG for the straight story on what his responsibilities are. Taking one cues from an internet forum is setting oneself up for a stretch in the Big House.

scc1909
05-19-2009, 6:36 AM
Since you ignored it last time, here it is again.
Since you don't seem to have figured it out on your own...consult your JAG. IANAL and don't give legal advice.

AEC1
05-19-2009, 6:47 AM
Look I am military, FL resident living in CA. In the last year I have DROS'd 2 handguns, and 2 long guns. It aint hard. Orders, ID card, utility bill.

Of course I have no wepons in my posesion except those that were purchased here.

Decoligny
05-19-2009, 9:02 AM
As far as the "Personal Firearm Importer" section goes, a member of the military who is stationed in California is NOT a resident of California

From PC 12001, subdivision (n) paragraph (6) defines a personal firearm importer:

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

CavTrooper
05-19-2009, 9:23 AM
As far as the "Personal Firearm Importer" section goes, a member of the military who is stationed in California is NOT a resident of California

From PC 12001, subdivision (n) paragraph (6) defines a personal firearm importer:

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

Understand.

How does that effect you when you are subject to a serial number check for whatever reason and the firearms comes back "unregistered"?

ETA** This is for determining "personal importer" status, how about determining residency for the purpose of purchasing a firearm?