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Plisk
05-18-2009, 9:02 AM
I have a question about a hypothetical modification of an AR15 safety selector. Would it be legal, to modify the safety selector by extending the detent path so that the selector would click into 3 places like a FA selector would. And milling off another flat area on the selector so that the safety would be disengaged in the new 3rd position. What I have in mind would not make it FA capable, but would the "look" of clicking it to FA be legal or illegal?

bwiese
05-18-2009, 9:15 AM
Geezus, what the hell?

Someone always wants to push something for irrelevant 'cool factor'.

Owning a legal AR in CA already requires a heightened level of vigilance and a fair amount of verbal/mental agility - knowing/able to recite details of complex CA laws while under possibly stressful LEO encounter.

You expect a cop to take the gun apart to see what's in there and know that the parts in there are, despite motion into 3rd position, still legal?

And you wanna make someone think you have a f**kin' machinegun? (Right now most LEO OLL vs AW drama generally results in seizure not arrest. MG drama can result in "go straight to jail".

We've already had drama with lowers marked with a 3rd position for "decor" even though the selector couldn't move.

Please don't Fail The Big IQ Test. Just because something is legal after demonstrating such in court doesn't mean you won't have drama. Don't get there in the first place.

I swear, all the noobies wanting 'cute cosmetics' get the drama they deserve. Hell, I'm not even a fan of 10/30 magazines and 'fake cans'. Why have useless crap that can bring drama?

Plisk
05-18-2009, 9:22 AM
In all your ranting, you can't even give me a straight answer? You just call me a noobie and tell me how stupid my question is. If you're going to flame me for it, go right ahead but don't waste a post without even giving an answer.

KCM222
05-18-2009, 9:24 AM
:lurk5:

CavTrooper
05-18-2009, 9:34 AM
In all your ranting, you can't even give me a straight answer? You just call me a noobie and tell me how stupid my question is. If you're going to flame me for it, go right ahead but don't waste a post without even giving an answer.

I would imagine the BEST answer you will get is by hiring a lawyer and going through the DOJ, which I doubt will result in any answer at all. Or, you could decide for yourself and find out in court.

ChuckBooty
05-18-2009, 9:38 AM
I don't see why it would be illegal. After all, 10/30 mags are built to LOOK like they're hi-cap mags. And a bullet button/raddlock ak or ar LOOKS like it has detachable magazines. Doesn't a fake can LOOK like a real one?

I imagine what the OP is doing is that he has a full auto kit of some kind and wants to be able to slap it in when he crosses state lines or when the zombies come.

Plisk
05-18-2009, 9:42 AM
I don't see why it would be illegal. After all, 10/30 mags are built to LOOK like they're hi-cap mags. And a bullet button/raddlock ak or ar LOOKS like it has detachable magazines. Doesn't a fake can LOOK like a real one?

I imagine what the OP is doing is that he has a full auto kit of some kind and wants to be able to slap it in when he crosses state lines or when the zombies come.

No, no full auto kits sadly. I just want it for some cool factor, and for my Indie film maker friend. He wants to start using real AR types in his movies and trying to phase out using airsoft.

Jicko
05-18-2009, 9:44 AM
In all your ranting, you can't even give me a straight answer? You just call me a noobie and tell me how stupid my question is. If you're going to flame me for it, go right ahead but don't waste a post without even giving an answer.

If not for biwese.... you would not be having your OLL in CA today.....

RESPECT...

I call for a ban on this newbie.... to teach him a lesson



No, no full auto kits sadly. I just want it for some cool factor, and for my Indie film maker friend. He wants to start using real AR types in his movies and trying to phase out using airsoft.

If this is for real, have him hire a lawyer to help him apply for a "film making" AW or MG or NFA weapons permit... or there are "firearms consultant" companies who can help him on those weapons....

bwiese
05-18-2009, 9:50 AM
In all your ranting, you can't even give me a straight answer? You just call me a noobie and tell me how stupid my question is. If you're going to flame me for it, go right ahead but don't waste a post without even giving an answer.

If my answer weren't clear enough to you above, you probably shouldn't even own an OLL rifle. The whole tone of my post was to emphasize it was "stupid but defendably legal after arrest & trial so don't go there".

The idea that you want something that appears so close to a possible machinegun - and that likely wouldn't be determinable at a traffic stop and would result in arrest - is laughable.

Again, just because something is ultimately legal after a criminal defense $$outlay$$ doesn't make it at all wise.

Your determination - your arse, your $$$ for lawyers. Perhaps you're rich and have spare time on your hands.

You might recall that - early in the OLL revolution - roughly a dozen or so full-auto marked lowers (even though selector couldn't move into the 'fun' position) were seized from a noted CA FFL. Those lowers still aren't back, and litigation may be required.

Plisk
05-18-2009, 9:56 AM
If this is for real, have him hire a lawyer to help him apply for a "film making" AW or MG or NFA weapons permit... or there are "firearms consultant" companies who can help him on those weapons....
I'm sure such a permit is expensive, and his films are very very low budget. These movies aren't high budget hollywood films, they barely reach the scale of Sundance Movie Festival types. They're more for personal use, and he uses the material for his some film classes he's taking at a JC.

If my answer weren't clear enough to you above, you probably shouldn't even own an OLL rifle. The tone of my post was to emphasize it was "stupid but defendably legal".

The idea that you want something that appears so close to a possible machinegun - and that likely wouldn't be determinable at a traffic stop and would result in arrest - is laughable.

Again, just because something is ultimately legal after a criminal defense $$outlay$$ doesn't make it at all wise.

Your determination - your arse, your $$$ for lawyers. Perhaps you're rich and have spare time on your hands.

I understand if it came to a legal matter it would mean lawyer money and court dates. And the fact that my language skills weren't able to pick up on your message dictates my right to own a firearm? Also, if you refer back to my original post, the word hypothetical comes up. I was just asking a general knowedge question. I'm not waiting on approval to start production on my FA look a like selectors, just a simple question and then all this happened. I've got my answer and I thank you for it.

bwiese
05-18-2009, 10:00 AM
I understand if it came to a legal matter it would mean lawyer money and court dates. And the fact that my language skills weren't able to pick up on your message dictates my right to own a firearm?

No but in our experience helping defend folks, the folks with the least skills in these areas have the most drama ;)

Just because you have a 'right' doesn't mean that technical details won't get you arrested. We're fighting to stop it, but we don't wanna waste time on cases like this.

Remember, CGF/I get tons of woe-is-me calls prefaced with, "But I assumed...."

Also please note the post was replied to in the way it was not just for your benefit - but for the many tens of thousands of others that may well read it here and need to lock it in their heads.

Vtec44
05-18-2009, 10:08 AM
So answer is that although it is legal since you're not converting your rifle to full auto, it's still not the smartest thing to do. I'd personally mark the 3rd position "Highly Illegal". :D

jasilva
05-18-2009, 10:23 AM
So answer is that although it is legal since you're not converting your rifle to full auto, it's one of the dumbest things to do. I'd personally mark the 3rd position "Highly Illegal". :D

Fixed that for accuracy.

bohoki
05-18-2009, 10:39 AM
people have been going for machine gun looks for years look at the gsgmp5 its a lookalike i cannot imagine it woudl be illegal to make a semi selector have 2 fire positions if it is not making it fire more than one shot per trigger pull

but as to is "safety" i think its not a good idea what if someone thinks fire is over there and safe is up then blammo

to me it would be like putting a plastic rollbar in a truck hey its for looks but if you let someone borrow it and they squishthemselves rolling it thinking they had a real roll bar well you know

TheBundo
05-18-2009, 10:44 AM
It may be legal, but will make you look as goofy as those guys who drive around with their parking lights on, then forget to turn the headlights on, because the dash lights are on due to the parking lights being on. Doing things to "look cool" usually has the opposite effect.

bwiese
05-18-2009, 12:02 PM
It may be legal, but will make you look as goofy as those guys who drive around with their parking lights on, then forget to turn the headlights on, because the dash lights are on due to the parking lights being on. Doing things to "look cool" usually has the opposite effect.

Bingo!

PolishMike
05-18-2009, 12:08 PM
Heres a good answer -

Do you have $25,000-50,000 in cash that you can readily give to lawyer?

If yes, then go ahead. If no, don't.

PS - Make sure you can cite laws relating to OLLs.

adamsreeftank
05-18-2009, 12:18 PM
My suggestion, keep your AR nice and vanilla, and then get the coolest looking short barrel machine gunniest metal airsoft rifle you can find and use that for your back yard commando escapades.

MrClamperSir
05-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Doing things to "look cool" usually has the opposite effect.

Couldn't be more true from my experiences.

wash
05-18-2009, 12:36 PM
For filming purposes, get an ambi selector and remove the detent.

I'm pretty sure that will let it swing a full 180 degrees (and not fall out).

Do your closeups, then put the detent back.

BKinzey
05-18-2009, 1:05 PM
It would be just as easy to use close-ups of air-soft full auto selectors as to try to mod an AR-15 to look as if it is full auto. Anyone savy enough to visually know the difference between the selectors will also notice that blanks are being used:cool:

BTW, I've seen more of the opposite happening on sets. Air-Softs are cheaper than real guns, the solid plastic or rubber guns as well, so I've noticed more of them floating around sets.

Finally, if your movie firearm has a full-auto or burst selector won't your viewers wonder why nobody is using them?:detective:

ke6guj
05-18-2009, 1:52 PM
Geezus, what the hell?

Someone always wants to push something for irrelevant 'cool factor'.
I've wanted to do that with an m-16 selecter, have the disconnector tab milled out, so I could rotate it to the third position and still be in a semi-auto configuration.

Why? I'm a lefty, and when I shoot my 50BMG uppers, the selector tab digs into to side of my index finger. It doesn't bother me when I'm shooting .223, but the recoil of the .50BMG does bother me. I figured rotating it another 90* out of the way would be nice, but I'll probably just grind down the selector so its shorter.

GSequoia
05-18-2009, 1:58 PM
Hell, I'm not even a fan of 10/30 magazines and 'fake cans'. Why have useless crap that can bring drama?

I agree. Why call more attention than is necessary to yourself?

JDay
05-18-2009, 2:06 PM
I imagine what the OP is doing is that he has a full auto kit of some kind and wants to be able to slap it in when he crosses state lines or when the zombies come.

Which would get him into a world of hurt without the proper tax stamp.

Plisk
05-18-2009, 3:09 PM
It would be just as easy to use close-ups of air-soft full auto selectors as to try to mod an AR-15 to look as if it is full auto. Anyone savy enough to visually know the difference between the selectors will also notice that blanks are being used:cool:

BTW, I've seen more of the opposite happening on sets. Air-Softs are cheaper than real guns, the solid plastic or rubber guns as well, so I've noticed more of them floating around sets.

Finally, if your movie firearm has a full-auto or burst selector won't your viewers wonder why nobody is using them?:detective:

For his movies only a few scenes we use blanks, and its usually for close up where you can see a shell ejecting. The rest is just CGI for burst/auto fire.

Untamed1972
05-18-2009, 7:57 PM
No, no full auto kits sadly. I just want it for some cool factor, and for my Indie film maker friend. He wants to start using real AR types in his movies and trying to phase out using airsoft.

Please.....like your avg. indie film viewer is gonna notice that the rifles in the movie have 2 or 3 position selectors. :rolleyes:

tortoisethunder
05-18-2009, 8:19 PM
I personally would never modify a safety on any gun...if something terrible happens while filming, whether or not the safety was at fault, you my friend will be liable because you modified the weapon. The weapon manufacturer(s) (in the case of the ar) will have their lawyers get them out of the law suit so fast and you and your film maker will be left out to defend yourselves...how expensive that would be? Look what happened to Brandon Lee while filming the crow, he was killed by a dummy bullet, because they got cheap while filming and sent the weapons expert home. Don't be cheap while USING firarms.

Have you printed out the CA AW flow chart on this site? Do you know how to use the chart with you AR?

Many people before you and I have made AR's possible...I am a fairly new member to cal guns...these bullet button/mag lock firearms do indeed need some extra attention than the average firarms.

Please respect our members that have been around for awhile and understand their concern for you and your possible pitfalls.

Pvt. Cowboy
05-18-2009, 10:54 PM
Geezus, what the hell?

Someone always wants to push something for irrelevant 'cool factor'.

Please don't Fail The Big IQ Test. Just because something is legal after demonstrating such in court doesn't mean you won't have drama. Don't get there in the first place.

Here, Bill... Have a Pepcid AC. I keep a bottle of them next to the mousepad to get rid of the heartburn after I open these kinds of threads.

Seesm
05-18-2009, 11:11 PM
I only read page one cuz the op had me going on his smack talk to Bweise.... Dude... you are a noob to talk like that to HIM... GL if you EVER need help from the CGF... Anyway on yoru movie stuff you want a gun wrangler to make it all legal.... use real guns and do not do it right you may get in some serious sh*t and find someone hurt... And on me..? Flame away if you like OP... I have been off for a week and probably will not see it anyway...

Plisk
05-18-2009, 11:11 PM
I personally would never modify a safety on any gun...if something terrible happens while filming, whether or not the safety was at fault, you my friend will be liable because you modified the weapon. The weapon manufacturer(s) (in the case of the ar) will have their lawyers get them out of the law suit so fast and you and your film maker will be left out to defend yourselves...how expensive that would be? Look what happened to Brandon Lee while filming the crow, he was killed by a dummy bullet, because they got cheap while filming and sent the weapons expert home. Don't be cheap while USING firarms.

Have you printed out the CA AW flow chart on this site? Do you know how to use the chart with you AR?

Many people before you and I have made AR's possible...I am a fairly new member to cal guns...these bullet button/mag lock firearms do indeed need some extra attention than the average firarms.

Please respect our members that have been around for awhile and understand their concern for you and your possible pitfalls.

I have the flowchart file on my desktop, I've just yet to print it out. I feel I have a good grasp on what I'd need to explain about my AR if the need arose.

steve40
05-18-2009, 11:42 PM
hahaha, its funny how Plisk just asked a simple yes or no question and people start blowing their tops off. lol, poor guy.

Plisk
05-18-2009, 11:45 PM
hahaha, its funny how Plisk just asked a simple yes or no question and people start blowing their tops off. lol, poor guy.

Thank you Steve, I'm glad someone sees it.

Riodog
05-19-2009, 12:15 AM
hahaha, its funny how Plisk just asked a simple yes or no question and people start blowing their tops off. lol, poor guy.

Some of us don't see this as funny. If his "friend" wants the realism then hire a licensed armorer and get the real thing.

When a LEO sees me with a weapon, all I want him to see is a responsible shooter/hunter with a legal weapon. I do not want any question in his mind about what he's looking at and don't want to be grabbing dirt.

I'd be willing to bet that this poster is young, has but 1 or 2 guns, probably lives with mommy and daddy, no experience with the real world, very inexperienced with firearms. JMHO.
Grow up,
Rio

gcvt
05-19-2009, 12:29 AM
Reading this thread, I'm trying not to LOL too much because I don't want to wake up the GF or our dog. But, damn funny stuff here. :laugh:

Plisk
05-19-2009, 12:52 AM
Some of us don't see this as funny. If his "friend" wants the realism then hire a licensed armorer and get the real thing.

When a LEO sees me with a weapon, all I want him to see is a responsible shooter/hunter with a legal weapon. I do not want any question in his mind about what he's looking at and don't want to be grabbing dirt.

I'd be willing to bet that this poster is young, has but 1 or 2 guns, probably lives with mommy and daddy, no experience with the real world, very inexperienced with firearms. JMHO.
Grow up,
Rio

Ok, this is way past ridiculous now. I completely understand people are trying to tell me, it's doable but not smart. That's fine; I understand that back on page 1. It seems that people aren't seeing that my original post was a general knowledge question, a hypothetical general knowledge question. It’s not like I'm sitting here with my fire selector and a dermal waiting to see if I can up my "cool factor" by making a machine gun look-a-like. My Indie friend had a simple question, so I asked it. Many people on here decided to go over the top with their responses. I now see that biwese's original post wasn't as negative as I first read it to be and that it was my own mistake that took it down that path. I apologize for that biwese.

I clearly see everyone’s forced point that it's not worth the risk of court, lawyers, etc. But this is why I ASK such a question. A few people here see that. I have my answer after getting through all 4 pages of this, which realistically is 3 more pages than needed to have my question answered.

And Rio... really? Does it make you feel good to play a big man who believes he can analyze people through a forum all while hiding behind his computer screen? You need to do some growing up.


I have nothing else to add to my thread, and to prevent further negative comments I think it should be locked. Thank you everyone.

-Kevin

steve40
05-19-2009, 2:36 PM
Ok, this is way past ridiculous now. I completely understand people are trying to tell me, it's doable but not smart. That's fine; I understand that back on page 1. It seems that people aren't seeing that my original post was a general knowledge question, a hypothetical general knowledge question. It’s not like I'm sitting here with my fire selector and a dermal waiting to see if I can up my "cool factor" by making a machine gun look-a-like. My Indie friend had a simple question, so I asked it. Many people on here decided to go over the top with their responses. I now see that biwese's original post wasn't as negative as I first read it to be and that it was my own mistake that took it down that path. I apologize for that biwese.

I clearly see everyone’s forced point that it's not worth the risk of court, lawyers, etc. But this is why I ASK such a question. A few people here see that. I have my answer after getting through all 4 pages of this, which realistically is 3 more pages than needed to have my question answered.

And Rio... really? Does it make you feel good to play a big man who believes he can analyze people through a forum all while hiding behind his computer screen? You need to do some growing up.


I have nothing else to add to my thread, and to prevent further negative comments I think it should be locked. Thank you everyone.

-Kevin

well, lets hope that all the angry people that posted in this thread have realized that after reading that. some people just have no commonsense. and hey, dont you guys give me a hard time as well for saying that, hahaha. :) jk.

7x57
05-19-2009, 3:17 PM
I imagine what the OP is doing is that he has a full auto kit of some kind and wants to be able to slap it in when he crosses state lines or when the zombies come.

If you're committing a serious federal crime, who cares whether you're in CA or not? Under what circumstances would this be legal in any state?

Possibly if you purchased a transferable automatic weapon out of state (possibly before moving to CA, I don't care about those details), and modified it to be CA-legal (not sure how many full-auto-capable receivers there are that can be made legal in CA, this is all speculation) before bringing it in? Then, just maybe, you could restore the "Yes, we can!" function when travelling. (Recall that as of last November the selector settings are properly labeled "Hope," "Change," and "Yes, we can!")

I dunno if that could be made to work, and if it could be I bet it is a high-drama option, but it is all I can think of.

ETA: I forgot about constructive possession, which is pretty much designed to prevent this exact thing, but I guess it wouldn't matter if the only constructible full-auto weapon you have is on a transferable auto receiver.

7x57

B Strong
05-19-2009, 5:05 PM
Geezus, what the hell?

Someone always wants to push something for irrelevant 'cool factor'.

Owning a legal AR in CA already requires a heightened level of vigilance and a fair amount of verbal/mental agility - knowing/able to recite details of complex CA laws while under possibly stressful LEO encounter.

You expect a cop to take the gun apart to see what's in there and know that the parts in there are, despite motion into 3rd position, still legal?

And you wanna make someone think you have a f**kin' machinegun? (Right now most LEO OLL vs AW drama generally results in seizure not arrest. MG drama can result in "go straight to jail".

We've already had drama with lowers marked with a 3rd position for "decor" even though the selector couldn't move.

Please don't Fail The Big IQ Test. Just because something is legal after demonstrating such in court doesn't mean you won't have drama. Don't get there in the first place.

I swear, all the noobies wanting 'cute cosmetics' get the drama they deserve. Hell, I'm not even a fan of 10/30 magazines and 'fake cans'. Why have useless crap that can bring drama?

Good point.

Unless someone has 10 large m/l lying around with nothing better to do than be spent on legal fees, leave questionable cosmetics out of the OLL rifle equation.

Swatter911
05-19-2009, 6:54 PM
Just because one can do a thing, does not mean one should do a thing.....


No one is questioning your intelligence, just your wisdom.

Fjold
05-19-2009, 7:07 PM
It's better to be cool than smart.

Half the world lives this way, just look at how people dress and what they drive.

Roadrunner
05-19-2009, 8:53 PM
I have a question about a hypothetical modification of an AR15 safety selector. Would it be legal, to modify the safety selector by extending the detent path so that the selector would click into 3 places like a FA selector would. And milling off another flat area on the selector so that the safety would be disengaged in the new 3rd position. What I have in mind would not make it FA capable, but would the "look" of clicking it to FA be legal or illegal?

Let me see if I can get the point across by making an analogy. I believe an anecdote is in order here. As a kid I was into muscle cars, specifically Roadrunners, ergo the avatar. In fact I used to hang with kids that were into Mopars and FoMoCo's. One kid drove up one day in his "cool" '65 Mustang with a six banger in it. We all laughed our arses off. He put wheels on it with "Highjacker" air shocks, and it looked nice but it lacked the most important parts, which at that time would have been a cut and polished 289. The moral of the story is this, if you advertise it, it better have it or you will just look foolish.

DDT
05-19-2009, 9:35 PM
Rock concert
Rolled up sock
Leather pants.

Is this the effect you are after?

gunn
05-19-2009, 9:53 PM
Unless you live in Oakland :) , most of CA is not a place where you can test a gun by aiming it up into the air and pulling the trigger.

If a cop pulls you over and your selector goes to the "fun mode", you are going to get hauled in. After all, he has no way of testing that your rifle isn't full auto.

Take a look at the case of "David Olofson", the army reservist who went to prison because some guy he loaned a rifle to for testing had the rifle double fire at the range. While it initially sounded like the rifle was suffering from a malfunction, didn't it come out a little while later that the rifle was equipped with a full auto selector?

Perhaps he's looking for a bunkmate. I wonder what kind of indy films you could make from the cellblock. Actually, I DON'T want to know.

-g

PS. Don't they make gas blowback airsoft weaponry? After all, isn't that the mark of a good filmmaker that they can make "the illusion look real"?

superhondaz50
05-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Just an additive, what about all the people who buy or build guns that are made from converted kits like the FAL, AK, HK (91,93, MP5, Cetme), ETC that have been modified to Semi-Only in all the correct ways per ATF, yet still flip to the dead remains of the "auto" position even though it is now either semi or safe. For example on a HK navy lower it is impossible to get rid of the now extinct bones of the extra positions that are etched into the side. What about AK owners, the new semi poition was once the dreaded auto position. Are those people if legal peril? What can be done to correct this problem?

(P.S. I love AZ :p)

wash
05-20-2009, 7:46 AM
For a FAL there are U.S. pistol grips which lack the flat spot where the selector would slide in to the FA spot, but not everyone uses them.

Actually, some people make semi-auto selectors for FAL's but most people use the FA selector in the kit.

I think the difference is that some legally imported FAL's had that stuff and were not considered machine guns. There were even a few FAL's imported that made it through with a sear cut but are not considered machine guns (that was an ATF screw up I think).

I guess my point is that things are not enforced consistently and the ATF has a history of going after people with evil looking AR's.

ilbob
05-20-2009, 8:23 AM
i suggest leaving the lever alone. just no reason to ask for legal trouble.

if you are doing this as some kind of protest, maybe engraving a sad face on the receiver in the 3rd position would handle it. :(

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-20-2009, 8:58 AM
Threads like these made me vote as to why I believe Calguns is going downhill; not so much on the legislative battlefield but on the community level.

7x57
05-20-2009, 9:28 AM
if you are doing this as some kind of protest, maybe engraving a sad face on the receiver in the 3rd position would handle it. :(

You don't think the simple blank area is an eloquent statement? :rolleyes:

7x57

B Strong
05-20-2009, 10:52 AM
For a FAL there are U.S. pistol grips which lack the flat spot where the selector would slide in to the FA spot, but not everyone uses them.

Actually, some people make semi-auto selectors for FAL's but most people use the FA selector in the kit.

I think the difference is that some legally imported FAL's had that stuff and were not considered machine guns. There were even a few FAL's imported that made it through with a sear cut but are not considered machine guns (that was an ATF screw up I think).

I guess my point is that things are not enforced consistently and the ATF has a history of going after people with evil looking AR's.

G series FAL's. Listed as C & R's

They also brought in a second batch of sear cut FAL's through Gun South back in the 70's that aren't on the C & R list.

Don't leave out the few original HK G3's that were brought in as semi's with a simple deletion of internal parts in the trigger housing, the HK 41 that came afterwards (steel bushing through the front trigger housing pivot hole) and the few SIG AMT's that were brought in with unmodified full-auto receivers.

Lately, some Chinese AK's made it in with the sear pin hole drilled, filled by a pin...and the PSL types that came in with a similarly drilled receiver.

umoja
05-20-2009, 10:22 PM
What about AK owners, the new semi poition was once the dreaded auto position. Are those people if legal peril? What can be done to correct this problem?


Actually, I'm fairly certain that the full-auto position is in the middle, and the semi-auto position is on the bottom.

cracktheskye
05-21-2009, 12:34 AM
I think the main question is...... WHY? You are actually considering (likely going to) physically alter an already attention-grabbing rifle in order to look realistic for your "indie" (Junior College Film Class) filmmaker buddy's movie that will be viewed by a more-than-likely completely oblivious "indie" (Junior College Film Class) audience? Wow.

I guess the positive is that we only see posts as ridiculous as these once a week. Could be worse.

superhondaz50
05-21-2009, 7:31 AM
You are entirely correct. FA middle SA bottom. My semi "AK's" have there semi positions resting in the old FA slot, the receiver was dimpled that way.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that the full-auto position is in the middle, and the semi-auto position is on the bottom.

ad6mj
05-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Does anyone make a decal that looks like a hole with a pin in it? If you're going to go for the FA look, need to make it look like it has an auto sear.

Amacias805
05-21-2009, 10:11 PM
Thank you Steve, I'm glad someone sees it.

while i definitely think that what you said shouldn't be attempted...


you did get flamed pretty badly :20:... by bwiese no-less! good job few have accomplished this!:thumbsup:...

seriously can we keep this constructive, this thread is starting to sound like something that should be on arf.com....

(FLAME SUIT ON!!!)

outta curiosity could this be considered Constructive possession of a Machine Gun:
couldn't it be construed that he was trying to mill the the receiver to alter its function and make it into a machine gun....

not claiming it is, just asking
(Flame Suit off)

stix213
10-01-2010, 4:51 PM
So I was wondering the same thing and am glad I found this before asking! Didn't need to get flamed on by people who understand the fight.

It seems like the thing to do if you couldn't help trying/wanting to look tacticool (like almost
everybody who wants an ar15 anyway) might be to write a letter to the atf first to see what they're stance is, and if you get a letter saying anything other than 'okie doke' then don't do it. If I get a letter, or find one on the internet from the atf then I print it and party.

Anybody ask yet? I still think it'll look cool and as time goes on LEO's should become more aware of what's standard parts and what's not. Maybe not... Tic-toc time will tell.

ATF opinion is not as important as the fact there is a separate CA law banning machine guns that is enforced by local LEO's

This is really cut and dry though. If you haven't actually added FA parts or made your gun shoot FA, you aren't committing a felony. But if a cop every puts their hand on the gun and flips it all the way to FA, you are going straight to jail. Hopefully you can get a lawyer, etc, to get them to actually test fire your gun to see that it is not actually FA as soon as possible, but its pretty obvious that being able to flip your rifle to FA is definitely reasonable suspicion it actually is FA. An officer will not try firing your rifle at the scene to determine if it is FA or not, and will not believe you when you say being able to flip it to FA is for looks.

Whatever cops do to actual felons with illegal machine guns is exactly what they will do to you. And after its determined that your rifle isn't FA, they will still try to hit you with something FA related most likely, and you will need tens of thousands of dollars to prove you are not a felon. At least with something like 10/30 mags it is easy to safely confirm they are 10 round capacity or not at the scene, but not in this case.

slappomatt
10-01-2010, 5:18 PM
Thats a pretty good idea. Might have to do that.

B Strong
10-01-2010, 5:30 PM
No, no full auto kits sadly. I just want it for some cool factor, and for my Indie film maker friend. He wants to start using real AR types in his movies and trying to phase out using airsoft.

Beware of Indie, or any other type, of film makers.

"Film Makers" often desire realism, and have absolutely -zero- knowledge of firearms laws.

If you wish to go along that path, be ready for the consequences.

My advice is to tell your "Film Maker" friend to contact a prop house and leave you the hell alone.

vintagearms
10-01-2010, 6:35 PM
I've wanted to do that with an m-16 selecter, have the disconnector tab milled out, so I could rotate it to the third position and still be in a semi-auto configuration.

Why? I'm a lefty, and when I shoot my 50BMG uppers, the selector tab digs into to side of my index finger. It doesn't bother me when I'm shooting .223, but the recoil of the .50BMG does bother me. I figured rotating it another 90* out of the way would be nice, but I'll probably just grind down the selector so its shorter.

They do make selectors that will be perfect for leftys. Im a lefty but can manage with an ambi one.

rabagley
10-01-2010, 7:23 PM
In all your ranting, you can't even give me a straight answer? You just call me a noobie and tell me how stupid my question is. If you're going to flame me for it, go right ahead but don't waste a post without even giving an answer.

Um, you missed his answer then. Yes, it's legal. Yes, it will give you the opportunity to prove it's legality after an arrest, bail, arraignment, and attorney's fees.

At least, that was the answer I read.

megavolt121
10-02-2010, 2:03 AM
Yes it is legal...

If a cop ever examines your weapon and sees that the fun switch is available, and even moves to that position, you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. Chances are you'll be doing that explaining with shiny new bracelets on.

chuckdc
10-02-2010, 9:39 AM
The fun part is also that the functionality test for full-auto is going to be sent to whatever crime lab (with a firearms section) serves that local PD. The backlogs at the crime labs here in CA are on the order of about half a year for new cases, and yours isn't going to be a priority, because nobody's bleeding. So, you're going to be waiting for that report to come back before they take your case to court.

Regarding the 3-position marked receivers, wouldn't that be enough for the ATF to declare them to be full-auto under the "once a machine gun always a machine gun" rule? Sorta like having an M2 carbine receiver without having the M2 eeeeeeevil parts?
(just asked for clarity)

Noobert
10-02-2010, 9:43 AM
Regarding the 3-position marked receivers, wouldn't that be enough for the ATF to declare them to be full-auto under the "once a machine gun always a machine gun" rule? Sorta like having an M2 carbine receiver without having the M2 eeeeeeevil parts?
(just asked for clarity)

First off, I am not a lawyer, but it seems that without the actual hole above the selector, it wouldn't be a FA

pullnshoot25
10-02-2010, 10:10 AM
Probably not the best idea BUT there may be ways around it. Is there any way to put on a sticker of some sort that can be removed or something like that?

You could also engrave it with something like "Get real!" or "In my wet dreams" or something like that. I can't think of a cop that could honestly say that was real, though I have been continually been amazed at what police officers can and do get away with.

OR, think about this one.... you COULD think of how cool I am and put "pullnshoot25" there. Yeah, you have to see what I did there ;)

Basically, just don't do it.

pullnshoot25
10-02-2010, 10:11 AM
while i definitely think that what you said shouldn't be attempted...


you did get flamed pretty badly :20:... by bwiese no-less! good job few have accomplished this!:thumbsup:...

seriously can we keep this constructive, this thread is starting to sound like something that should be on arf.com....

(FLAME SUIT ON!!!)

outta curiosity could this be considered Constructive possession of a Machine Gun:
couldn't it be construed that he was trying to mill the the receiver to alter its function and make it into a machine gun....

not claiming it is, just asking
(Flame Suit off)

Bwiese has flamed quite a few people IIRC...

bigmike82
10-02-2010, 10:42 AM
I never understood the entire anti-cool features movement. By that argument you should be limited to a standard A2 upper, non-collapsible buttstock, and plain handguards.

That's bogus. An AR is, by its very natue, cool. The customization possibilities are endless, and 99.99999% of people will never "need" the 'cool' features we put on the damn things.

So those of you on your high-horse about 'cool' features need to get off it.

Except for Bill. He, and others like him, have done so much for my gun rights I'll respect anything he's got to say.

Plisk, there's only one question you gotta ask yourself.

"Do I want to be the test case for this?"

I don't know your finances, your legal abilities or your relationship with your lawyer, so I can't comment on it. But for most people, being a test case, especially in an area that you won't receive much outside assistance in, is going to be financially disastorous. Remember that even if you do sink tons of money into your defense, justice may not prevail and a prosecutor/dimwit judge can screw you for live (e.g. Theseus).

chuckdc
10-02-2010, 11:06 AM
First off, I am not a lawyer, but it seems that without the actual hole above the selector, it wouldn't be a FA

Thanks. It's been quite some time since I've handled an M16, so I forgot about the extra little hole/pin, and other parts we're not allowed to have.

Prowler
10-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Don't do it. You can win the battle by saying that you have the right to do it, however you can lose the battle when you push your rights to do it and dig yourself a big legality-issue hole that you have to spend money to prove that you have the right to do it...for what purpose. Just because...

ojisan
10-02-2010, 12:29 PM
S could HTF in more ways than one...
http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc324/scottwerx/149-1.jpg

gn3hz3ku1*
10-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Bill... after this many years on calguns I don't know why you get so mad at the tacticool crowd. :) at least he didnt call it his battle rifle?

Boots
10-02-2010, 1:14 PM
Ok, I haven't read all the way down, so this may have been hit upon already...

but why would you want to mod a safety selector so it can travel to a FA position when just about all lowers I see these days don't have the FA markings? Ok, assume the AR's you will be using have the markings?... but then I'm with most others here questioning the need for a indie film.
Unless the rifle is going to be stationary for a period of time while in frame, no one is really going to notice anyway... unless the viewer happens to have the film on DVD and does slow motion/freeze frame.

OK, take into consideration that YES, you will have close-ups on the safety selector.. and YES, you do want to be "accurate" as to the weapons used for filming... then I saw (as others have) use airsoft weapons that are realistic.
Before I bought my first AR, I was into airsoft and bought a Classic Army airsoft M16.
The body is made of metal and is licensed by Armalite to have their markings on the uppers and lowers that it looks (and feels weight wise) like the real thing.
The beauty is that you can use just about any external accessory made for the real deal on the Classic Army M16. The only thing that gives it away is the painted flash suppressor, which can easily be painted over or switched out.
The magazines even look real... because they use the same bodies as the real deal... again, the only give away is the wheel on the bottom. But again, you just pop in a real magazine and you are good to go.
And also as mentioned, you'll save money.

If there is no budget for purchasing airsoft, let alone the real thing... then I'm going to assume people are going to lend you their AR's for use (and mods)?.. or do you have an arsenal of AR's?
You might also find it easier to check out the local airsoft groups and see how many would lone their CA M16's for a movie.

scottoyster
10-02-2010, 1:58 PM
I was going to continue the flaming but I think bweise did a good enough job. All I have to say is anyone buying/modifying a firearm to "look cool" needs to get laid and find a new hobby. These are not toys. And doing anything to jeopardize the progress made on firearms laws will not make you any friends among responsible gun owners.

bigmike82
10-02-2010, 1:59 PM
"All I have to say is anyone buying/modifying a firearm to "look cool" needs to get laid and find a new hobby"
LOL. You crack me up.

*edit*

Also, says the man with an AR which has:
A forward rail
An Eotech sight
A Magpul enhanced trigger guard
A collapsible stock

All of these are 'cool' features. I think you need to get rid of all of that and build yourself a plain jane A2 rifle. Remember, it's not a toy.

scottoyster
10-02-2010, 2:13 PM
Also, says the man with an AR which has:
A forward rail
An Eotech sight
A Magpul enhanced trigger guard
A collapsible stock

All of these are 'cool' features. I think you need to get rid of all of that and build yourself a plain jane A2 rifle. Remember, it's not a toy.

Everything I have put on my rifle serves a purpose. I don't have an enhanced trigger guard and the stock on my rifle is the cheap collapsible that came with my upper package. A cheap flashlight holder goes on the rail and I didn't want to waste money on cheap optics. I have standard A4 handguards. My rifle is as stock looking as they come.

Now by going through my old posts it shows that I have clearly touched a nerve with you. Did the "needs to get laid" part hit a little too close to home.

bigmike82
10-02-2010, 2:15 PM
No, the fact that you're on a high horse about 'cool' rifles struck a nerve considering WHAT YOU BOUGHT.

Hypocrisy never sits well with me.

scottoyster
10-02-2010, 2:23 PM
No, the fact that you're on a high horse about 'cool' rifles struck a nerve considering WHAT YOU BOUGHT.

Hypocrisy never sits well with me.

How do you know what I bought. I've never posted pictures or descriptions of what I bought with the exception of the eotech. I've been shooting and hunting my whole life and I've never felt the need to own a rifle for self defense until the last couple of years. Please point to one of my posts that says "I want to buy X because it looks so cool." As the saying goes the 2nd amendment isn't about duck hunting. And it sure as hell isn't about looking cool.

bigmike82
10-02-2010, 2:31 PM
Your old posts, as you so astutely picked up on.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=332991

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=348040

I'm done arguing with you.

The OP wanted to modify the select to use in a movie. You want to mod your gun because you think the world's coming to an end (again, based on your own words).

But you know what?

BOTH ARE VALID REASONS. It's completely irrelevant why you want accessories on your rifle. It's your rifle, and you can do with it what you want.

The reason I got irritated with your post is the judgemental attitude it expressed. People who 'bling' out their rifle do it because they don't get laid? That post alone deserves a much more thorough 'flaming' than what I'm prepared to dish out.

scottoyster
10-02-2010, 2:52 PM
I'm done arguing with you.

The OP wanted to modify the select to use in a movie. You want to mod your gun because you think the world's coming to an end (again, based on your own words).


The OP said nothing about a movie in the first post. He said he wanted "the look" of a FA. I've never said the world is coming to an end in any of my posts. But I do say that our future is going to look very different than our past and that future economic collapses are inevitable because the foundation of our financial system is based on perpetual growth. I will be prepared for whatever may come.

I suppose there are worse things than making a rifle look cool. But when it comes to jeopardizing the hard work done by CGF on 2a rights that's a different story.

I guess I'll keep my mouth shut about "tacticool" from now on because this seems to be a sensitive issue among some here.

bigmike82
10-02-2010, 3:07 PM
"I guess I'll keep my mouth shut about "tacticool" from now on because this seems to be a sensitive issue among some here. "
Look, people make fun of tacticool rifles all the time. That's not the problem.

The problem is when you get judgemental to the point of being offensive.

Step back for a second. Can you understand, at least, why the phrase "All I have to say is anyone buying/modifying a firearm to "look cool" needs to get laid and find a new hobby" would illicit a pissed off response? ;)

"But when it comes to jeopardizing the hard work done by CGF on 2a rights that's a different story."
To an extent, I agree. But if the op goes through with what he wants to do, all he's doing is jeopardizing his own financial situation. On a more personal note, though, if I wanted to do something and someone like Bill told me "Stupid idea, don't do it"...I wouldn't.

On the topic of being tacti-awesome...

http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/tacticool.jpg

scottoyster
10-02-2010, 3:20 PM
Fair enough. I guess bweise just gets me riled up. Not trying to offend anyone.

Blackhawk556
10-02-2010, 3:30 PM
Lol. I love this thread.
I remember the first time I read this thread and laughed cus bwiese tore that guy up :)

Good times

Plisk
10-03-2010, 3:56 AM
Oh lord... why did this come back to life?

Looking back I pray that I just caught Bill on a bad day, and pray that he's not that jaded at the situation.

Guys a simple clarification of that whole thing way back when (just so there's no new BS on this unholy thread). I made this thread back when I first got into ARs. I first got into them when I got my job at Ade's Gun Shop, so I learned hard and fast about the details. When I made the thread I knew my basics. The reason behind the question was that one of my friends(he's not a random schmuck trying to enlist my help) is an Indie Filmmaker, he's hoping to become a professional in the field someday. He's also a fellow gun enthusiast. His private Indie movies are usually just for his own use and enjoyment since his film college, like any other school, doesn't take too kindly to guns. They're just a fun project for us and our friends. Not to mention, his budget is usually a few hundred dollars, so all the wonderful suggestions to get a Special Weapons Permit or hire a licensed Armorer were not even fathomable.

When this idea first came up he was planning a teaser for a zombie flick he was writing. His basic plan involved showing a guy firing an AR. At first the full-auto would be added with CGI, then on a close-up showing the last round fired with a blank(semi-auto) for the up-close detail. Hence the selector in the 3rd position. He was just curious if it was possible, so I asked. It came up as a not smart/no. Ok problem solved.

Then everyone else decided they needed to speak up, and well... we know where that went. Thanks for bringing this memory back up guys.

Sniper3142
10-03-2010, 1:35 PM
I think what the OP suggested is a very unwise idea.

It raises doubts about the legallity of a particular firearm.




Of course... the same could be said about 10/20 or 10/30 magazines in the fixed mag firearm.

Or pinned "collapsable" stocks on a featureless one.

Or add-ons like 37mm Flare Launchers

Or ... well... you (hopefully) get the point.

:(

1911su16b870
10-03-2010, 1:38 PM
It is an interesting arguement...lets say you have a FA selector on your AR, but no FA hammer or FA sear...many would argue the FA selector makes the AR an NFA item...but most ARs do indeed currently have FA bolt carriers in them...

The AR still needs the FA trigger, FA disconnector, FA selector, FA hammer, and FA sear inorder to be a FA NFA item.


How many FA items can you install before it is an NFA item? :TFH:

383green
10-03-2010, 2:16 PM
How many FA items can you install before it is an NFA item? :TFH:

In the eyes of BATFE: One. The bolt carrier is a lone exception to the rule. Any FA parts installed in the lower half would be an invitation for trouble.

packnrat
10-03-2010, 10:04 PM
as far as "safety's" on a gun go. is there any law in Ca that says you can not modify one on any type/style gun??
mine in question is on a lever rifle. push button gets bumped when carting it around while hunting.
as this rifle would still have two other safety's on it.

.

bwiese
10-03-2010, 10:20 PM
In the eyes of BATFE: One. The bolt carrier is a lone exception to the rule. Any FA parts installed in the lower half would be an invitation for trouble.

Not only that, the wording for the definition of machinegun under CA law in 12200PC includes a constructive possession clause that appears to encompass the unique parts for same. I would not want to be in possession of any exclusively FA FCG parts when there are widely-sold semiauto only equivalents. The wording is just too broad not to fall under.

bwiese
10-03-2010, 10:22 PM
as far as "safety's" on a gun go. is there any law in Ca that says you can not modify one on any type/style gun??
mine in question is on a lever rifle. push button gets bumped when carting it around while hunting. as this rifle would still have two other safety's on it.


There's no law against modifying a safety on a gun. Use extreme care though in removing safeties - safeties are there for a reason. If "something happened" - esp in regards to a negilgent discharge that led to injury or property damage - things could get nastier than they should.

The discussion in posts above related to the safety selector on AR15s vs M16s, because this can control semi/FA operation (which we want to avoid).

A Rostered handgun with a safety selector (or any other part - except grips/sights) would fall out of Rostered status with modifications and could only be sold PPT within California.

BT JUSTICE
10-03-2010, 11:28 PM
This one is my favorite. I'd buy two if I could find it for real....

russ69
10-03-2010, 11:31 PM
I was thinking the 3 positions could be: SAFE-BADGUY-ZOMBIES

Thanx, Russ