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mjv
05-18-2009, 8:20 AM
http://www.eagletribune.com/punewshh/local_story_135220825.html?keyword=topstory

Is there more to the story or is this what we have to look forward to?

ChibiPaw
05-18-2009, 8:27 AM
Because OP is too lazy to copy pasta...

Police: Man said 30,000 bullets were for target practice
He is held on $500,000 bail
By Paul Tennant
ptennant@eagletribune.com
HAVERHILL Keni Garcia told police he intended to use the 30,000 bullets they found in his car and home for target practice.

That is hard to believe, the prosecutor at Garcia's arraignment said, because if he were to fire a gun for eight hours a day, it would take weeks for him to use all of it.

Garcia, who allegedly bought thousands of rounds of ammunition and had 10,000 bullets in his car when he was stopped by police Thursday, was ordered held on $500,000 cash bail yesterday.

Attorney Socrates de la Cruz of Lawrence, who represented Garcia, 32, of 12 Freeman St., at his arraignment in Haverhill District Court, said he will appeal the high bail in Superior Court.

Garcia is charged with three counts of possession of a high-capacity firearm, illegal possession of ammunition and illegal storage of a firearm. His case was continued until June 12.

Assistant District Attorney Christopher Holland asked Judge Patricia Dowling to impose $750,000 cash bail.

"He has no reason to stay here," Holland said.

The judge ordered Garcia to surrender his passport, and said that if he makes bail he is not to leave Massachusetts.

Garcia is a native of the Dominican Republic who was expected to become a U.S. citizen yesterday, but then he was arrested, authorities said.

Police arrested Garcia after he had left Interstate 495 at Exit 49 Thursday. They said they found 10,000 rounds of ammunition in his car. His two young daughters also were in the car, police said.

Holland said at Garcia's arraignment that a "joint effort" by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and state police found that Garcia had previously bought 20,000 rounds of ammunition in New Hampshire.

Garcia told police he only intended to use the bullets for target practice at a rifle range, Holland said, disputing Garcia's explanation. His common law wife, Elizabeth Reynoso, consented to a search and police found another 20,000 rounds, Holland said. They also found one .38-caliber and two 9 mm handguns, and $25,000 in cash, Holland said.

The prosecutor said all of the bullets seized from Garcia were for .38-caliber, 9 mm and .22-caliber firearms. Such ammunition is "like gold in the Dominican Republic," he said.

Holland said Reynoso told police he had "a shipping type of business" and that the $25,000 in cash must have come from Garcia cashing a business check.

"Where is the crime?" de la Cruz asked. The lawyer said Garcia had lived in New Hampshire for three years before recently moving to Haverhill.

"He bought the guns legally," de la Cruz said. "He never hid the fact that he had them."

Furthermore, de la Cruz said that when Garcia moved to Haverhill, he had a 60-day grace period to obtain a Massachusetts firearms card.

"There is no crime committed," he argued, saying there was no evidence that Garcia was shipping guns or ammunition to the Dominican Republic.

He asked the judge to allow his client "to go back to his job." He said Garcia has worked at a local bakery for three years.

Yesterday, Freeman Street residents interviewed by The Eagle-Tribune said they did not know anything about Garcia or guns and ammunition being stored at or shipped from his home.

Medline Abiles, of 43 Freeman St., who resides across the street from Garcia's house, said that in the two months she has lived in the neighborhood, she has not observed any weapons or ammunition and had no reason to be suspicious. Her sister, Carmen Reyes, who visits frequently, said she also had never noticed anything suspicious at the two-family house at 12 Freeman St.

hawk1
05-18-2009, 8:28 AM
Garcia is charged with three counts of possession of a high-capacity firearm, illegal possession of ammunition and illegal storage of a firearm.

Illegal possession of ammunition, this must be a Massachusets thing I guess?

I don't see this being illegal here in California, not yet anyways...

mjv
05-18-2009, 8:33 AM
Because OP is too lazy to copy pasta...

or readers could be too lazy to click...

DDRH
05-18-2009, 8:33 AM
Wow, 30K rnds off ammunition...kinda weird to have 10K rnds in ur car, but it don't mean anything...wait, it's illegal to own ammo in Mass.?

PatriotnMore
05-18-2009, 8:33 AM
Wow, just wow. I am thinking Hawk1 is correct but.... WTH is this country coming to, when we need to make excuses for having ammunition, and laws are passed restricting it.

ChibiPaw
05-18-2009, 8:39 AM
or readers could be too lazy to click...

We're sorry, please try again. thank you for drinking sprite!

tiki
05-18-2009, 8:46 AM
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Is there more to the story or is this what we have to look forward to?

There has to be. From what I gather from reading the article, he may have been shipping stuff to the DR. He may have been violating some laws. There was a "joint effort by the ATF and State Police", so he wasn't just randomly pulled over coming back from Starbucks.

Because OP is too lazy to copy pasta...

I love pasta, just never copied it. :)

Illegal possession of ammunition, this must be a Massachusets thing I guess?

I don't see this being illegal here in California, not yet anyways...

The illegal ammo possession sounds strange, but, there may be a limit there. It could also be a question of what he was doing with it thats the problem and he is just getting held on something until they do more investigating. There isn't a law against carrying cash, but if you got pulled over with $20,000 in cash in your car, you are going to have a problem.
(If you don't believe that, go rent a car in Miami, put $20,000 in the trunk and drive north on I-95 at 15 mph over the speed limit. Then, consent to a search when you get pulled over and see what happens.)

What if a Nevada resident was shipping 30 round magazines into California? I think he would still get arrested even though there is nothing illegal about having 30 round magazines in Nevada.

JDoe
05-18-2009, 8:48 AM
There has to be more to this story.

Jicko
05-18-2009, 8:49 AM
Bullets or Ammo??

30k bullets are not an unusual amount.... go talk to any IPSC Master and Grand Master shooters....



Also.... .22lr!!!!!!! man....

Vtec44
05-18-2009, 8:57 AM
What is a high capacity firearm? I hope there's more to the story....

rivviepop
05-18-2009, 8:58 AM
Because OP is too lazy to copy pasta...

...or because it's blatantly illegal to wholescale copy & paste copywritten content from an AP website into any other medium without the fair use exemption in play. Even with fair use (in this case with the intent to criticize or educate) only the minimum necessary (snippets, excerpts) are covered. An entire copy paste in order to do nothing more than to reproduce the article - for those who may not click, in this case - is 100% against copyright law.

Calguns members are extremely guilty of this all over the place, many folks around here think you can just copy & paste entire articles from any source on the internet without any regard to copyright law. And this in a subforum dedicated to legal issues! Oh the irony.

tiki
05-18-2009, 9:00 AM
...or because it's blatantly illegal to wholescale copy & paste copywritten content from an AP website into any other medium without the fair use exemption in play. Even with fair use (in this case with the intent to criticize or educate) only the minimum necessary (snippets, excerpts) are covered. An entire copy paste in order to do nothing more than to reproduce the article - for those who may not click, in this case - is 100% against copyright law.

Calguns members are extremely guilty of this all over the place, many folks around here think you can just copy & paste entire articles from any source on the internet without any regard to copyright law. And this in a subforum dedicated to legal issues! Oh the irony.

Well, until the media does fair and balanced reporting, screw them.

nick
05-18-2009, 9:20 AM
I hope there's more to this story.

Otherwise... "illegal possession of ammunition", now that's an interesting one. How does that work? Then there's this horrible horrible cash found in his house. Now, how many here possess 30K rounds of ammo and keep cash at home?

So, I hope there's more to this story.

And of course, the media is being its usual worthless self, trying to bring as much drama as possible in its reporting.

They said they found 10,000 rounds of ammunition in his car. His two young daughters also were in the car, police said.

motorhead
05-18-2009, 9:42 AM
iirc ma requires some kind of card to purchase ammo/guns. says he bought ammo in nh. this is probably what involved atf. believe it or not, ca doesn't have the worst gun laws. he was probably just stocking up because of the ammo shortage.

dfletcher
05-18-2009, 9:52 AM
I'm from Plaistow, New Hampshire - it's adjacent to Haverhill, MA (part of my family still lives in Haverhill) - could be the town where he bought the ammo. I just spoke with some gun owner friends there, we have mutual LE friends.

Haverhill is pretty rural & not what most folks would picture regarding Massachusetts. Concealed weapons permits are easy to get, my Mom and brother each have them. Having a gun and ammo (alot of ammo) by itself is not unusual and something the police are not going to bother with - last week a family friend walked down the street a few blocks carrying a 22 rifle, set up in a friend's back yard and popped a woodchuck. No one called the police, no problems. Too many geese crapping on the country club golf course results in hunters shooting about 30 geese a day until the geese go elsewhere. Shooter most often go into the woods to shoot as opposed to going to a range and the gun club is very active.

With respect to the arrest, this fellow didn't have a driver's license and was being watched for some reason. He had a handgun in MA without a permit (LTC - license to carry) and had hi caps. That his attorney is from Lawrence is interesting, Lawrence is a few towns over and rather rough - lots of gang activity and crime. I know that Haverhill (and Andover & Salem & Andover) residents want bad elements from Lawrence to stay in Lawrence and to not migrate to their town. I'd expect that someone turned the local police or State Troopers on to this fellow for other reasons.

And having a firearm ID card applies to long guns only - that his attorney would mention it as being useful regarding handgun possession is off point.

So I suspect there is more to the story than meets the eye. I would not expect this to be a simple matter of a good guy having alot of ammo & being pinched for it.

BTW, NH has no sales tax & this drives MA authorities nuts - folks drive up and buy big ticket items all the time. MA takes the position people should pay sales tax even though the transaction took place out of state. Figure even at $.25 per round, 20K rounds has to run about $5K - I'll bet they try & nail him on that also.

bwiese
05-18-2009, 10:02 AM
Just imagine - he's charged with multiple crimes for possessing less ammo than I have stored under my platform bed.

And people think CA's gun laws are the worst.

We'll fix CA's gun laws far more quickly than those of NY/MA/MD.

MrClamperSir
05-18-2009, 10:12 AM
So I suspect there is more to the story than meets the eye. I would not expect this to be a simple matter of a good guy having alot of ammo & being pinched for it.


:thumbsup:

Gio
05-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Wow, I wish I had 10K of 9mm stashed in my room along with 10K of each .223 and .45 :D

There has to be more to this story then what is being sadi so far. I read a little bit of it and it says he was accused of shipping guns and ammo to Dominican Republic. If so there is more then enough reason to stop him and find 10K of ammo in his car and say it was bieng transferred somehow. I hope this guy has a good lawyer and can present his case and win.

-Gio

Legasat
05-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Wow, I wish I had 10K of 9mm stashed in my room along with 10K of each .223 and .45 :D


I agree! Ammo shortages being what they are, you have to store "some", otherwise you won't have any when you need it.

I HOPE there is more to this story...

rabagley
05-18-2009, 11:40 AM
I've bought four cases of .22LR before. Which means that I had 20k rounds in the trunk of my car. I'll admit it seemed like a lot, but not out of control.

dfletcher
05-18-2009, 12:06 PM
BTW, his girlfriend said he has "a shipping type of business" and the police say 22, 9mm and 38 Special ammo is highly sought after in his home country.

Note to self - must buy new handcuffs and duct tape for the wife before embarking on new business venture .....:eek:

383green
05-18-2009, 12:56 PM
Just imagine - he's charged with multiple crimes for possessing less ammo than I have stored under my platform bed.

To think that some people need to be concerned about their waterbed crashing through the floor... :rolleyes:

JDay
05-18-2009, 1:57 PM
The illegal ammo possession sounds strange, but, there may be a limit there. It could also be a question of what he was doing with it thats the problem and he is just getting held on something until they do more investigating. There isn't a law against carrying cash, but if you got pulled over with $20,000 in cash in your car, you are going to have a problem.

Its less then that, anything over $9,999.99 is automatically seized as "drug money" until you prove otherwise in court. Thank the war on drugs for this violation of your rights.

JDay
05-18-2009, 1:59 PM
...or because it's blatantly illegal to wholescale copy & paste copywritten content from an AP website into any other medium without the fair use exemption in play. Even with fair use (in this case with the intent to criticize or educate) only the minimum necessary (snippets, excerpts) are covered. An entire copy paste in order to do nothing more than to reproduce the article - for those who may not click, in this case - is 100% against copyright law.

Calguns members are extremely guilty of this all over the place, many folks around here think you can just copy & paste entire articles from any source on the internet without any regard to copyright law. And this in a subforum dedicated to legal issues! Oh the irony.

I don't see how this is not covered under fair use. Especially since there is a reference to the original article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#Fair_use_under_United_States_law

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

BKinzey
05-18-2009, 2:04 PM
Its not like we're making any money off their writing, altering credit information, source with links also are included.

You are wrong again:thumbsup: None of what you mention would have legal standing as an excuse.

You mocked someone's post when technically you were in the wrong. You are still in the wrong. Accept it or not.

I too think it's a little ironic for this to be in a "legal" forum.

BKinzey
05-18-2009, 2:11 PM
I don't see how this is not covered under fair use. Especially since there is a reference to the original article.


He quoted the entire article. The damage done to the publisher is a loss of revenue. The publisher gets paid based on the number of hits his site gets. If you copy the entire article then there is no reason to go to the web page.

rivviepop
05-18-2009, 2:50 PM
Its less then that, anything over $9,999.99 is automatically seized as "drug money" until you prove otherwise in court. Thank the war on drugs for this violation of your rights.

You mean... without any combination of a supposed BATF violation? If I were a non-gun guy and just had 10k sitting at my house (maybe I was saving to buy a car?) they can just take it, period?

bohoki
05-18-2009, 4:05 PM
one more time wehn in doubt the police jsut haul you in and then just claimn they acted on good faith

i want penal code violation numbers

anthonyca
05-18-2009, 4:20 PM
You mean... without any combination of a supposed BATF violation? If I were a non-gun guy and just had 10k sitting at my house (maybe I was saving to buy a car?) they can just take it, period?

They WILL take it. If you have that much on you a K9 will alert on it and it will be confiscated. It is up to you to prove it is yours which can be hard to do if you are cheap and single and take cash out in large quanities just because its yours and you like the way it looks and feels.

bigcalidave
05-18-2009, 4:30 PM
They WILL take it. If you have that much on you a K9 will alert on it and it will be confiscated. It is up to you to prove it is yours which can be hard to do if you are cheap and single and take cash out in large quanities just because its yours and you like the way it looks and feels.

No they will not. Where do you people get these ideas? Hanging out with too many drug dealers? 10k is not very much cash, and in california our civil forfeiture rules are somewhat better than certain states in this country.

Rhys898
05-18-2009, 5:00 PM
I hope there's more to this story.

Otherwise... "illegal possession of ammunition", now that's an interesting one. How does that work?

This is what I have found regarding large quantities of ammo in Ma.

Without a permit a "licensed firearm owner" (I assume this means holder of a FID, which is for rifles and shotguns, but for handguns you either need a class A or class B license to carry, difference being one allows for hi-caps) can have up to 10k rimfire, 10k centerfire and 5k shotgun shells (plus up to 1000 primers, 16lb smikeless powder and 2lb black powder) which must be locked up when "not in use".

Even with a permit (I believe this comes from either the fire department or fire marshall) for private use you can only have 30k rimfire, 50k centerfire, 50k shotgun shells (plus up to 10k primers, 48lb smokeless powder, 5lb black powder).


Jer

bohoki
05-18-2009, 5:06 PM
This is what I have found regarding large quantities of ammo in Ma.

Without a permit a "licensed firearm owner" (I assume this means holder of a FID, which is for rifles and shotguns, but for handguns you either need a class A or class B license to carry, difference being one allows for hi-caps) can have up to 10k rimfire, 10k centerfire and 5k shotgun shells (plus up to 1000 primers, 16lb smikeless powder and 2lb black powder) which must be locked up when "not in use".

Even with a permit (I believe this comes from either the fire department or fire marshall) for private use you can only have 30k rimfire, 50k centerfire, 50k shotgun shells (plus up to 10k primers, 48lb smokeless powder, 5lb black powder).


Jer

well thats cool i guess there are no ammo hoarders in mass kind of freaky to have a legal limit though


justy wondering what if you carry around a bunch of $500 postal money orders will the atf take those from you?

HowardW56
05-18-2009, 5:11 PM
Wow, I wish I had 10K of 9mm stashed in my room along with 10K of each .223 and .45 :D

Me too....


I'm almost afraid to go to the range anymore, the cost of replacing the ammo I use is outrageous, if you can find it!

DDT
05-18-2009, 7:29 PM
Note to self - must buy new handcuffs and duct tape for the wife before embarking on new business venture .....:eek:

Are you planning on going into movie making?

DDT
05-18-2009, 7:31 PM
The real question is. "Why would an ammo or gun smuggler live in MA?" That's like a flasher moving to Alaska.

SimpleCountryActuary
05-18-2009, 7:36 PM
Wow, I wish I had 10K of 9mm stashed in my room along with 10K of each .223 and .45 :D

There has to be more to this story then what is being sadi so far. I read a little bit of it and it says he was accused of shipping guns and ammo to Dominican Republic. If so there is more then enough reason to stop him and find 10K of ammo in his car and say it was bieng transferred somehow. I hope this guy has a good lawyer and can present his case and win.

-Gio

Today 10,000 rounds of .22LR arrived at my house from the CMP. Big Fat Hairy Deal. You must be right that there is more to the story, except that these Maroons who know nothing about guns always think that 10,000 rounds of small caliber ammo is like stocking up on grenades or something. Geez Louise!

Untamed1972
05-18-2009, 7:48 PM
A 5000rd case of 22lr isn't that big and cost about $160 at the last gun show. If I woulda got stopped a couple of months ago on my way home from the show they would found about that many rounds in my car too.

The media always likes to throw those numbers out there cuz they sound like such big numbers. But if people saw a few small boxes of ammo and realized that's all it was if wouldn't seem like a big deal. I was talking to some 3-gun shooters once and they said they order ammo 30-40K rds at a time.

grunz
05-18-2009, 8:34 PM
I don't own a 22, but what's 30,000 rounds of it fit into - a big shoebox?

:thumbsup:

I hope there's more to it....

SkatinJJ
05-18-2009, 8:45 PM
This is what I have found regarding large quantities of ammo in Ma.

Without a permit a "licensed firearm owner" (I assume this means holder of a FID, which is for rifles and shotguns, but for handguns you either need a class A or class B license to carry, difference being one allows for hi-caps) can have up to 10k rimfire, 10k centerfire and 5k shotgun shells (plus up to 1000 primers, 16lb smikeless powder and 2lb black powder) which must be locked up when "not in use".

Even with a permit (I believe this comes from either the fire department or fire marshall) for private use you can only have 30k rimfire, 50k centerfire, 50k shotgun shells (plus up to 10k primers, 48lb smokeless powder, 5lb black powder).


Jer

That puny bit of ammo and couple of kegs of beer...my friends and I wouldn't make it through this upcoming 3-day weekend.

To all the gunbroker canary sssses, I'll take California over Massa2chits any day.

(BTW - they should be free too!)

nobody_special
05-18-2009, 10:25 PM
I don't own a 22, but what's 30,000 rounds of it fit into - a big shoebox?
By my estimate, 9 .30 cal ammo cans would be just about right.

DocSkinner
05-18-2009, 11:40 PM
CA isn't so bad compared to MA - yes - IF you don't have the political connections to get a firearms ownership card, you can be charged with possessing ammunition as an independent crime (even 1 round), you can be charged for possessing a pistol, with out ammo, and if you have that ammo IN the pistol - that is another charge. So possessing a loaded pistol without government preapproval even in your own home is 3, (count'em, three) crimes and citations. There are also law setting up punishments for anyone assisting or abetting anyone in the above acts.

Dealers there can get their licenses pulled and fined for simply showing a gun to a non-licensed person, and if the actually let that person hold the gun... Possession is 9/10ths and all, and they just became an accessory.


Although interestingly the laws state that a "RESIDENT" is guilty of XXXX if XXXX, and they have C&R differences as well (so that locals in organizations can have their muskets to show how MA is the home of Liberty...). So if you don't claim MA as your residence, the laws don't apply to you? (or well, you could argue at a higher court they didn't apply...)

DocSkinner
05-18-2009, 11:44 PM
By my estimate, 9 .30 cal ammo cans would be just about right.

depending on yer shoe size, only about 1500 22LR rounds, in their plastic cases, fit into a shoe box. so more if you have the bulk loose pack boxes.

or REALLY big feet.

Was so happy getting to move back to Cali from MA...

tombinghamthegreat
05-19-2009, 12:09 AM
I don't own a 22, but what's 30,000 rounds of it fit into - a big shoebox?


a box of 500 .22 could easily fit in one boot...

colossians323
05-19-2009, 4:21 AM
or readers could be too lazy to click...

No, he was right, the OP was to lazy to copy and paste;)

ybz
05-19-2009, 5:10 AM
the police say 22, 9mm and 38 Special ammo is highly sought after in his home this country.


fixed it...

the guy was probably pulled over on his way from walmart...

xxdabroxx
05-19-2009, 9:41 AM
or readers could be too lazy to click...

It helps to have the subject at hand present in the thread discussing it.

MrClamperSir
05-19-2009, 9:44 AM
CA isn't so bad compared to MA - yes - IF you don't have the political connections to get a firearms ownership card, you can be charged with possessing ammunition as an independent crime (even 1 round), you can be charged for possessing a pistol, with out ammo, and if you have that ammo IN the pistol - that is another charge. So possessing a loaded pistol without government preapproval even in your own home is 3, (count'em, three) crimes and citations. There are also law setting up punishments for anyone assisting or abetting anyone in the above acts.

Dealers there can get their licenses pulled and fined for simply showing a gun to a non-licensed person, and if the actually let that person hold the gun... Possession is 9/10ths and all, and they just became an accessory.


Although interestingly the laws state that a "RESIDENT" is guilty of XXXX if XXXX, and they have C&R differences as well (so that locals in organizations can have their muskets to show how MA is the home of Liberty...). So if you don't claim MA as your residence, the laws don't apply to you? (or well, you could argue at a higher court they didn't apply...)

I never thought I would feel lucky to live in CA when it came to the issue of firearms!

rp55
05-19-2009, 10:00 AM
There has to be more to this story.

From the article "joint effort by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and state police" so there is something we are not being told. BATFE and Staties don't put something like this together for simple ammo hoarding.

xxdabroxx
05-19-2009, 10:06 AM
Only other thing i can figure is the cops later called the higher ups.

Jared1981
05-20-2009, 5:57 AM
Just imagine - he's charged with multiple crimes for possessing less ammo than I have stored under my platform bed.

And people think CA's gun laws are the worst.

We'll fix CA's gun laws far more quickly than those of NY/MA/MD.

Although Maryland has a waiting period (shorter than CA) and bans private transfers of handguns (like CA) They are pretty good on everything else. The carry permit is the big issue there.

Other than that, they are full class 3 and you can own and carry any type of blade unconcealed. They sound much better than CA to me.

If I moved to MD, all I would have to do is move and bring my handguns. If I moved to CA, I would have to pay 19 dollars per pistol, register them, and leave regular capacity magazines out of state...even though I could turn aroound and legally purchase them once I moved there (retarded law).

Maryland is by no means the model RKBA state (Idaho would be), they are better than a lot of states out there due to class 3, no registration and no silly knive bans.

Glock22Fan
05-20-2009, 8:12 AM
If I moved to CA, I would have to pay 19 dollars per pistol, register them, and leave regular capacity magazines out of state...even though I could turn aroound and legally purchase them once I moved there (retarded law).

Uh???? It's illegal to sell them and, arguably, even if you could find someone to sell them it would be illegal for you to be an accessory to the sale if your bought them.

Jared1981
05-20-2009, 8:55 AM
Uh???? It's illegal to sell them and, arguably, even if you could find someone to sell them it would be illegal for you to be an accessory to the sale if your bought them.

No it would not be illegal for me to do so. An LEO can purchase standard cap mags in CA. Therefore I would not be illegal; however, according to the silly law, it would be illegal for me to "import" standard cap mags into CA... even though I can buy them there anyway.