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View Full Version : Bushmaster Carbon-15 legal letter


SKSer
05-15-2009, 9:54 AM
Hi, im completely familiar with OLL laws and possesion, what im trying to do is convince my local gunstore that they are legal. Some time ago, before I found Calguns and was informed about OLL's, I had a conversation with my local gunstore and we were talking about building a rifle from a reciever, at this time i didnt know about the bullet button so i was talking with him about riveting a magazine into the reciever and he told me "the biggest thing about the carbon 15 is that it you ever got busted for having it and went to jail bushmaster would send a letter to the police that stated that its california approved". So is there such a letter and does it say "Kalifornia approved" or "Kalifornia compliant", these are two completely different things. I plan on putting together a package with laws and the stag and dsa letters as well as the sacto pd letter. if you look at bushmasters website it just says Kalifornia compliant.
thanks Gary

SKSer
05-15-2009, 10:09 AM
Dont know why i didnt think of this, but I called bushmaster and they say they do not supply any letter but it is on some california list of approved rifles as "bushmaster california legal top loading rifle", has anyone ever seen this list?

MonsterMan
05-15-2009, 10:39 AM
I don't think there is a "approved" list. Just a list of "not approved" rifles.

Maybe I am wrong.

SKSer
05-15-2009, 10:39 AM
WOOO HOOO, i just called the DOJ and the person, here was the conversation:

Me: "Is there a list or a letter you can provide that says the Bushmaster top loading rifle is legal?"

DOJ:"Well it is legal because it doesnt have a detachable magazine, and it only holds 10 rounds"

Me: "So its not on a list or there is no letter"

DOJ: "No"


Me: "So if I purchase a Stag-15 and attach a 10 round magazine to it is that legal."

DOJ: "well....uh ...(I cut her off)

Me: " the only reason im asking is because i want to comply with the law, but the bushmaster is like 5 times as much(exaggeration) and it is poorer quality because it is plastic.

DOJ: "will you purchase it with the magazine attached?"

Me: "yes"

DOJ: "look all I can say is as long as it complies with PC 12276.1 then it is legal to own."

Me: "and as long as its not on either banned list right"

DOJ: "yes of course"

Me: "ok thank you"

Im sure this has been heard before, but it still was nice to hear first hand.

Vtec44
05-15-2009, 10:53 AM
I'd probably want to get that in writing for the hell of it. They never really give me a straight answer in writing.

BroncoBob
05-15-2009, 11:04 AM
When my son got his "Top Loader" Carbon 15 several years ago before the big OLL movement it came with a letter from the CA DOJ approving for sale in CA. We still have a copy at home. We bought it through Davidsons and had it sent to Dom's in Livermore for Xfer and dros.

CSACANNONEER
05-15-2009, 11:31 AM
AFAIK, there is no such thing as "California approved" long guns. All long guns are approved unless they fall into prohibited catagories.

Casual Observer
05-15-2009, 11:36 AM
What you're probably talking about is the approval letter Iggy wrote for Evan's Gunsmithing saying their welded shut magazine well is legal for CA sale. According to Evan's (and ignoring the fact Iggy has since been demoted and fired for just these types of shenanigans) this letter means HIS rifles are the only ones legal for sale in CA.

He also owns the patent on the design, which is why the Bushmaster one is made of plastic.

If you want to see a copy of it, I think Evan's still has it framed and mounted in his store.

WokMaster1
05-15-2009, 3:39 PM
When my son got his "Top Loader" Carbon 15 several years ago before the big OLL movement it came with a letter from the CA DOJ approving for sale in CA. We still have a copy at home. We bought it through Davidsons and had it sent to Dom's in Livermore for Xfer and dros.

Post a pdf copy on here. Thanks.

SKSer
05-15-2009, 3:46 PM
the point of asking them if the carbon 15 was on a "list" of approved long guns, or if there was a letter from the DOJ stating it was "california approved", was an important part in them admitting that the Stag-15 configured with an attached 10 rd mag is therefore legal as well. Bushmaster stated they have no such letter and neither does the California DOJ or nor do they have an "approved list". Point being, if both rifles have attached 10 rd mags then they have to both be accepted, even if there not "approved". They cant just say "we like the Carbon-15 better", they are after all both AR-15 style, and both technically function the same (assuming you top load both). That is why the DOJ rep said as long as it complies with 12276.1. Any monkey with a dremel can open up the mag well on a carbon 15 and modify to take mags very easily.

glock_this
05-15-2009, 3:46 PM
IIRC.. back in circa 2005 early 2006, when the OLL craze was unfolding, there was a thread here where many of us scanned in and posted up the letters we got from the makers of our lowers that showed they had been DOJ approved. I still have my letter from Vulcan I am sure and I am almost positive that thread is/was here... did you try to search for the topic with this cg google search (http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk) IF you can find it, I wonder if a Bushmaster letter would be in it.. maybe. At the time, having that letter was a prudent thing and it helped my FFL accept doing the deal.

SKSer
05-15-2009, 3:54 PM
I have the stag-15 letter from allison, the point im trying to get at with this whole deal is the Carbon-15 being totally accepted by non OLL friendly FFL's and the DOJ, and OLL's being so evil. I mean lets take away the BB for a second and say you configured it with a 10 rd mag, and nut screwed on to the mag release and even tack welded, they still wouldnt accept it like the carbon 15

SKSer
05-15-2009, 4:02 PM
Im thinking the More FFL's we can get to accept the OLL's the better for us now and in the long run. If we could figure out how to get the DOJ to give a straight answer over the phone, then we could go into non OLL friendly FFL, call the DOJ on speaker phone and get them to admit the legality of OLL's.

SKSer
05-15-2009, 4:15 PM
IIRC.. back in circa 2005 early 2006, when the OLL craze was unfolding, there was a thread here where many of us scanned in and posted up the letters we got from the makers of our lowers that showed they had been DOJ approved. I still have my letter from Vulcan I am sure and I am almost positive that thread is/was here... did you try to search for the topic with this cg google search (http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk) IF you can find it, I wonder if a Bushmaster letter would be in it.. maybe. At the time, having that letter was a prudent thing and it helped my FFL accept doing the deal.


that is a killer little search tool, how do you get to that, all i could find were threads talking about the Carbon- 15 and mentioniong the letter.

aplinker
05-15-2009, 4:19 PM
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalCaliforniaApprovalInformation

SKSer
05-16-2009, 12:03 AM
"That having been said, none of the various "off-list" compliance devices currently in use in California have been granted 'approval' status. This is partly in order to maintain a state of uncertainty in the California gun-owning public and slow public adoption of these rifles. However, given the trend of DOJ "approval letter" reversals, Californians should probably be glad that no letters have been issued lately."

This is why it would be great to get as many FFL's involved in OLL acceptance. As of right now I try to tell anyone I meet that are into guns and shooting about Calguns and give them the OLL run down. Id say 9 out of 10 gun enthusiasts I meet have no idea about OLL's and they think all AR's except the lame Carbon-15 are illegal here.

taroshea
07-27-2010, 9:59 AM
Im new in this site and would like to find out if i could change the top loading into a bullet bottom? Is there a fact or sort of document i can find? Please let know coz im hearing pros and cons about this. I just need the fact. Thanks

Flopper
07-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Im new in this site and would like to find out if i could change the top loading into a bullet bottom? Is there a fact or sort of document i can find? Please let know coz im hearing pros and cons about this. I just need the fact. Thanks

The gun itself is not illegal, and it's not illegal to convert it to a normal magwell.

Many people have converted it and then installed a bullet button, and I'm sure others have gone featureless and used a normal mag release.

AEC1
07-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Necro alert!!

dantodd
07-27-2010, 2:30 PM
better to bring back a necro thread than start a new thread.