PDA

View Full Version : HEY GUYS, Misunderstandings on PPT, YOU CAN SHIP NON LISTED ITEMS


cal4050
05-14-2009, 6:23 PM
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#dros

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/dros.pdf

Item #13 on dealer FAQ's
What are the signature requirements for the DROS worksheets / computer printouts?

The purchaser must sign the DROS printout. For private party transactions, the seller must also sign the printout. The salesperson is required to sign as a witness to the purchaser's signature and identification.

(PC section 12071(c)(1))
THIS STATES THE SALESPERSON IS REQUIRED TO SIGN AS A WITNESS TO THE (PURCHASER'S SIGNATURE AND IDENTIFICATION), NOT WITNESSING THE SELLER'S SIGNATURE. THE SELLER MUST SIGN THE ORIGINAL COPY OF THE DOJ WORKSHEET AND COPY THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE ON THE BACK/UPPER LEFT CORNER FOR THE REGISTERING FFL DEALER.

The DOJ's SB-15 was intended to help verify the PURCHASER'S Identity in person and then submit paperwork.

Everyone, I hope this helps clear things up. Lots of misconception out there.

HowardW56
05-14-2009, 6:28 PM
Now lets see if you can get a dealer to do it...

hoffmang
05-14-2009, 7:19 PM
Non rostered handguns can not be brought in from out of state.

There is a potential argument that a non rostered handgun can be sold between California residents via the "remote" PPT process.

-Gene

HowardW56
05-14-2009, 7:21 PM
Non rostered handguns can not be brought in from out of state.

There is a potential argument that a non rostered handgun can be sold between California residents via the "remote" PPT process.

-Gene

It would be interesting to hear how many FFL's will actually do it....

Matt C
05-14-2009, 7:25 PM
Non rostered handguns can not be brought in from out of state.

There is a potential argument that a non rostered handgun can be sold between California residents via the "remote" PPT process.

-Gene

They can't be shipped in. I see nothing in the law preventing them from be brought in by someone to do a PPT. But anyways :beatdeadhorse5:

Quiet
05-14-2009, 7:48 PM
[url](PC section 12071(c)(1))
THIS STATES THE SALESPERSON IS REQUIRED TO SIGN AS A WITNESS TO THE (PURCHASER'S SIGNATURE AND IDENTIFICATION), NOT WITNESSING THE SELLER'S SIGNATURE. THE SELLER MUST SIGN THE ORIGINAL COPY OF THE DOJ WORKSHEET AND COPY THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE ON THE BACK/UPPER LEFT CORNER FOR THE REGISTERING FFL DEALER.
:confused:
Penal Code 12071
(c)(1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" means either of the following:
(A) A valid California driver's license.
(B) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

ke6guj
05-14-2009, 8:00 PM
Non rostered handguns can not be brought in from out of state.

There is a potential argument that a non rostered handgun can be sold between California residents via the "remote" PPT process.

-Gene

two question come to mind. Has anything been found out why the PPT DROS system does not allow for out-of-state IDs anymore? If that was the case, then it would be legal to bring in a non-rostered handgun for purposes of a PPT.

And if an out-of-state person could bring in a handgun to PPT, then if two CA-residents could do a "remote PPT", then why couldn't an out-of-state seller do a "remote PPT"?

Matt C
05-14-2009, 8:04 PM
two question come to mind. Has anything been found out why the PPT DROS system does not allow for out-of-state IDs anymore? If that was the case, then it would be legal to bring in a non-rostered handgun for purposes of a PPT.

And if an out-of-state person could bring in a handgun to PPT, then if two CA-residents could do a "remote PPT", then why couldn't an out-of-state seller do a "remote PPT"?

A remote PPT in general is a lot more questionable legally speaking than a PPT with an out of state ID, but the DROS system allows for the former and not the latter. I agree with you though.

Maestro Pistolero
05-14-2009, 8:10 PM
Penal Code 12071
(c)(1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" means either of the following:
(A) A valid California driver's license.
(B) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

In other words, if he seller does not have a CALIFORNIA DL, or ID, you can't make the sale. The only way I am aware of buying a non-rostered handgun is from another CA resident who already has one.

For example: If I were to MOVE back to CA from NV, I would be able to ring my non-AW guns back, sans full cap magazines, then sell them to another CA resident.

Here's a scenerio question for you legal eagles:

A CA resident processes paperwork on an out of state gun, via voluntary registration with the DOJ, PRIOR to taking possession of the gun and prior to it being brought into the state. Then, once the DOJ registers it in his name, if they do, is it still considered an import from another state, if it's already registered in his name, prior to bringing it across state lines?

So, to be clear, prior to bringing it across state lines, he is already registered with the state of CA as the owner of the gun.

Legal, or not?

DDT
05-14-2009, 8:14 PM
So, a CA/NV dual resident (or Active Duty Military with NV DL and CA ID card) buys a gun on his NV license, prints out the DROS form and fills in his part, mails gun and paperwork to FFL.

Is this a legal ppt per CA PC?

ke6guj
05-14-2009, 8:16 PM
In other words, if he seller does not have a CALIFORNIA DL, or ID, you can't make the sale. The only way I am aware of buying a non-rostered handgun is from another CA resident who already has one. where does it say that the seller must show ""clear evidence of his or her identity and age"?


A CA resident processes paperwork on an out of state gun, via voluntary registration with the DOJ, PRIOR to taking possession of the gun and prior to it being brought into the state. Then, once the DOJ registers it in his name, if they do, is it still considered an import from another state, if it's already registered in his name, prior to bringing it across state lines?

So, to be clear, prior to bringing it across state lines, he is already registered with the state of CA as the owner of the gun.

Legal, or not?how did the CA resident gain possession of the out-of-state gun? There are federal laws in play as well.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 8:18 PM
:confused:
Penal Code 12071
(c)(1) As used in this article, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" means either of the following:
(A) A valid California driver's license.
(B) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

That only applies to the PURCHASER, not the seller. Show me one place in that section where is says the seller has to present "clear evidence of his or her identity and age".


Here's a scenerio question for you legal eagles:

A CA resident processes paperwork on an out of state gun, via voluntary registration with the DOJ, PRIOR to taking possession of the gun and prior to it being brought into the state. Then, once the DOJ registers it in his name, if they do, is it still considered an import from another state, if it's already registered in his name, prior to bringing it across state lines?

So, to be clear, prior to bringing it across state lines, he is already registered with the state of CA as the owner of the gun.

Legal, or not?

It's legal, but only possible if the person has an FFL, otherwise he could not buy a gun while out of state.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 8:21 PM
So, a CA/NV dual resident (or Active Duty Military with NV DL and CA ID card) buys a gun on his NV license, prints out the DROS form and fills in his part, mails gun and paperwork to FFL.

Is this a legal ppt per CA PC?

Are you buying it to resell it? Be careful how it might look. Also, again "remote" PPTs are a grey area.

DDT
05-14-2009, 8:26 PM
Are you buying it to resell it? Be careful how it might look. Also, again "remote" PPTs are a grey area.

As long as you don't do it frequently enough to be considered your business I see no reason not to do this. It isn't like it can be construed as a straw purchase since everything goes through an FFL with background check and 10 day waiting period. Of course you would be limited to 6 transactions a year.

hoffmang
05-14-2009, 8:29 PM
They can't be shipped in. I see nothing in the law preventing them from be brought in by someone to do a PPT. But anyways :beatdeadhorse5:


12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.


The bolded text is the problem for out of staters to bring a non-rostered handgun in and sell it to a CA resident. However, the DROS system is an underground regulation as it applies to rostered handguns and long guns being sold by non state residents.

-Gene

Matt C
05-14-2009, 8:31 PM
The bolded text is the problem for out of staters to bring a non-rostered handgun in and sell it to a CA resident. However, the DROS system is an underground regulation as it applies to rostered handguns and long guns being sold by non state residents.

-Gene

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. PPT is an exemption to 12125 and nothing in the PPT section says the seller can't be an out of state resident, he just has to be in state (at the FFL) at the time of sale (maybe).

Even if you are saying he can't import it to sell, he can always import it and then decide to sell it once he is here, talk about an impossible to prove crime (when did he decide to sell it? Only he knows)

You want to draft another OAL petition? :) Then again the roster suit is already going so *shrug*.

ke6guj
05-14-2009, 8:35 PM
I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. PPT is an exemption to 12125 and nothing in the PPT section says the seller can't be an out of state resident, he just has to be in state (at the FFL) at the time of sale (maybe).

Even if you are saying he can't import it to sell, he can always import it and then decide to sell it once he is here, talk about an impossible to prove crime (when did he decide to sell it? Only he knows)

You want to draft another OAL petition? :)+1.


12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

The importation of a non-rostered handgun in order to do a PPT should be exempt from 12125. Or is the point that even though the sale would be exempt from 12125, that it had to be "imported for sale" in order to be PPT'ed before it could be PPT'ed in an exempt transaction?

Quiet
05-14-2009, 9:28 PM
:confused:

Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer, and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and 12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

Penal Code 12001
(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision (c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.
(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she was discharged from active service in this state.

JDay
05-14-2009, 9:57 PM
The bolded text is the problem for out of staters to bring a non-rostered handgun in and sell it to a CA resident. However, the DROS system is an underground regulation as it applies to rostered handguns and long guns being sold by non state residents.

-Gene

That would seem to cover everything except importing for personal use if I'm reading that correctly.

markw
05-15-2009, 12:07 AM
I was under the impression that if you had a parent/grandparent/child that you could bring in non-rostered stuff from out of state. Ie. I could inherit some of my dad's stuff, or since he's still alive, he could gift or sell them to me? I _REALLY_ should've stocked up before I retired and became a resident. :banghead:

ke6guj
05-15-2009, 12:10 AM
I was under the impression that if you had a parent/grandparent/child that you could bring in non-rostered stuff from out of state. Ie. I could inherit some of my dad's stuff, or since he's still alive, he could gift or sell them to me? I _REALLY_ should've stocked up before I retired and became a resident. :banghead:

correct, that is legal. It would need to go through a CA FFL to comply with federal law if the out-of-state person is alive.

The PC in question talks about "import for sale", "importing to gift" does not violate that statute as long as all other pertinant laws are complied with.

hoffmang
05-15-2009, 12:11 AM
I was under the impression that if you had a parent/grandparent/child that you could bring in non-rostered stuff from out of state. Ie. I could inherit some of my dad's stuff, or since he's still alive, he could gift or sell them to me? I _REALLY_ should've stocked up before I retired and became a resident. :banghead:

Intrafamily transfers are exempt from the Roster.

-Gene

megavolt121
05-15-2009, 1:14 AM
The bolded text is the problem for out of staters to bring a non-rostered handgun in and sell it to a CA resident. However, the DROS system is an underground regulation as it applies to rostered handguns and long guns being sold by non state residents.

-Gene

Gene, did you just imply you're going after the DROS system via OAL?

Quiet
05-15-2009, 2:26 AM
Gene, did you just imply you're going after the DROS system via OAL?

Easier to just take on the approved list. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179227)

The OAL decline to make a decision on NRFs. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176408)

CHS
05-15-2009, 8:22 AM
There is another way around the DROS system's ID requirements for an out of state seller who PPT's a gun in CA at a CA FFL.

Just do the paper DROS worksheet and fax it into the DOJ.

megavolt121
05-15-2009, 10:54 AM
Easier to just take on the approved list. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=179227)

The OAL decline to make a decision on NRFs. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=176408)

I'm implying something bigger then what you've stated.

CHS
05-15-2009, 11:02 PM
I'm implying something bigger then what you've stated.

Don't imply, just say it.

hoffmang
05-16-2009, 2:54 AM
We will file one more OAL petition but its not clear whether we should wait for the outcome on Pena or not yet.

All firearms that do not fall into the class of "non-rostered handguns" should be transferable from a non-California resident who brings them to California to a California resident via PPT.

-Gene

OCArmory
05-16-2009, 8:58 AM
I called the DOJ yesterday on this matter. They stated that a "remote" or "split" PPT was not allowed. They said that both parties would have to appear before me and I would have to make an attempt to swipe their ID.
Sorry
Mike

CALI-gula
05-16-2009, 11:44 AM
I called the DOJ yesterday on this matter. They stated that a "remote" or "split" PPT was not allowed. They said that both parties would have to appear before me and I would have to make an attempt to swipe their ID.
Sorry
Mike

True.

But has anyone ever thought to notarize the documentation from one CA dealer to another CA dealer? In short, the dealer on the seller's side would process the seller's signature and ID requirement portion of the sale, notarize stamp the DROS form, then ship the gun with the paperwork to the buyer's FFL. Buyer's FFL would then complete the sale by activating the DROS/10 day wait for the buyer doing all the required paperwork for the buyer - and buyer's FFL would retain the DROS as the final in his records.

Possible? I know a lot of FFLs who are also notaries.

.