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View Full Version : Private Party Transfer Fees *Updated 6/11/09*


PORCH
05-14-2009, 3:04 PM
I just recently bought a handgun from my buddy and my dealer charged me $45 for the transaction. Today when I went and picked up the gun, I showed them the FAQ section from the CA DOJ website that the max you could charge was the $25 for the DROS and $10 dealer's fee. I also showed them that it said that in the Handgun Safety Certificate booklet. They told me that I was wrong and that they have always charged that much and some stores charge more. Who is right? I have always been under the impression that no matter where you take the gun a PPT is $35 max $25 min. I put in a call to the DOJ but all there phones were busy, so I had to leave a message.

PORCH
05-14-2009, 3:34 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. Receipt says registration fee $25. Instore Private Party FFL Fee $20. They said that it was $25 to the state. And the $20 broke down to as $10 to the Feds and $10 to them.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 3:37 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. Receipt says registration fee $25. Instore Private Party FFL Fee $20. They said that it was $25 to the state. And the $20 broke down to them as $10 to the Feds and $10 to them.

What is the FFL? He is breaking the law.

PORCH
05-14-2009, 3:41 PM
The FFL is Range Masters in San Luis Obispo

Matt C
05-14-2009, 3:50 PM
Just called, the guy told me "kiss my butt" and hung up when I offered to point him to the relevant PC relating to the fees. Actually pissed me off a little bit, I think he wants a private persons arrest. Looks like I'll be up in SLO next week.

DDT
05-14-2009, 3:53 PM
Just tell him you came up at his request. "Oh... you said kiss my butt! I thought you said KICK my butt"

4D5auto
05-14-2009, 3:57 PM
When I was an FFL, the State sets a maximum fee, a dealer may charge less. Right!

Turn the guy in!

DDT
05-14-2009, 4:03 PM
I know that Bill has expressed his desire that folks not make a stink about FFLs charging more than legally permitted but in the case of "kiss my butt" I think an exception is well deserved.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 4:06 PM
I know that Bill has expressed his desire that folks not make a stink about FFLs charging more than legally permitted but in the case of "kiss my butt" I think an exception is well deserved.

Seriously, I was just going to tell him if he didn't know, and I was not going to push the issue (he is not the only FFL doing that I know of, and actually others are closer), but "kiss my butt" then hang up. Come on now.

PORCH
05-14-2009, 4:24 PM
Made contact with DOJ. I'm e-mailing them the invoice as we speak.

Matt C
05-14-2009, 4:25 PM
Made contact with DOJ. I'm e-mailing them the invoice as we speak.

Oh snap, you went THERE? :eek: I was just going to arrest the poor guy, I wouldn't sic the DOJ on him.

PORCH
05-14-2009, 4:29 PM
I gave them two chances to make it right by me. I said they were wrong when I first did the transfer and today when I picked it up, I showed them the FAQ section and the Handgun Safety Certificate booklet. They both stated $35 max. They said I was wrong they were right and that I could call the DOJ if I wanted. So I did.

HowardW56
05-14-2009, 4:29 PM
The FFL is worng in his attitude, but on the other hand the state doesn't want the FFL's to be profitable, they would prefer to have them all go out of business. Realistically the 10.00 fee isn't enough for a business to function, but that is the law and they should try to comply.

That is why whenever I go into a gun store to do a PPT, I make it a point to buy something, even if its just a couple boxes of ammo. If they can't turn a profit, they won't be around!

PORCH
05-14-2009, 4:37 PM
They made out big time on my transfer. The guy I bought the gun from ended up using the money that I paid him to purchase a gun from them and I also bought about $20 worth of merchandise

PORCH
05-14-2009, 10:52 PM
DOJ called me back after I sent in the receipts and said that they would be visiting the store in the next 3-4 weeks. We'll see what happens.

DDT
05-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Looks like one FFL just pissed in the wrong bowl of Wheaties.

cousinkix1953
05-15-2009, 1:19 AM
This BS would stop if the DOJ bothered to send a memo to all of those FFLs. AG Moonbeam doesn't have to be a computer expert, to pull all of them on his mailing list. It takes seconds to type out a message and mass e-mail it to everybody.

Ten bucks might be on the low side in today's market; but the government (local LEAs) should be required to handle this paperwork during normal business hours. They are the ones who lobbied in Sacramento and demanded that this red tape be forced upon the public...

DDT
05-15-2009, 1:37 AM
but the government (local LEAs) should be required to handle this paperwork during normal business hours.

Amen.

ZirconJohn
05-15-2009, 1:48 AM
Never fails to amaze me, my fellow FFL Dealers.

What exactly is it that my brothers just simply do not understand about PPT is $35.00 by Law [period].

What is so difficult about siplicity:shrug:

Bruce
05-15-2009, 7:08 AM
but the government (local LEAs) should be required to handle this paperwork during normal business hours.

"Sorry we couldn't get here sooner, lady. We had to do a private party transfer."

RandyD
05-15-2009, 7:16 AM
In this case the dealer's charges should be consistent with the law, and by the accounts posted here, he should reconsider his attitude and customer service. However, we should also consider what it is like to be in his position. I have a friend who has a FFL. He explained to me the work involved in doing transfers and by his calculations he earns less than minimum wage to perform a transfer. I would not like the government telling me what I can charge for my services, and if a FFL does make approximately minimum wage in doing a transfer, we should be grateful that they provide the service.

RobG
05-15-2009, 7:53 AM
10.00 is nothing for the the time they spend but, its ALL they can LEGALLY charge. I do not want FFL's to go out of business either. But, I also do not think we, their CUSTOMERS, should have to take getting hosed and not make waves. Its wrong, illegal, and an unethical business practice. If they choose to go that route then they should be prepared for the consequences (if any).

Along this line. I sold a revo to a CG'er a month or so back. After I was done, I thanked the FFL for doing the transfer and acknowledged that he gets next to nothing for his trouble. He seemed to appreciate it.

paul0660
05-15-2009, 7:55 AM
they would be visiting the store in the next 3-4 weeks.

Not exactly front burner, which I suppose is appropriate. Please remember to follow up and let us know.

hawk1
05-15-2009, 8:40 AM
...I have a friend who has a FFL. He explained to me the work involved in doing transfers and by his calculations he earns less than minimum wage to perform a transfer. I would not like the government telling me what I can charge for my services, and if a FFL does make approximately minimum wage in doing a transfer, we should be grateful that they provide the service.

California has allowed the dealer to sell firearms, part of that provision is that the dealer must do private party transactions at a mandated fee. He does not have to do PPT's, but in return he won't be allowed to sell firearms. See how that works?
If he thinks he's losing money doing PPT's, then ask him how much he'll make not selling any firearms at all?

Gio
05-15-2009, 8:51 AM
California has allowed the dealer to sell firearms, part of that provision is that the dealer must do private party transactions at a mandated fee. He does not have to do PPT's, but in return he won't be allowed to sell firearms. See how that works?
If he thinks he's losing money doing PPT's, then ask him how much he'll make not selling any firearms at all?

Ding, ding, ding! Hit the nail square in the head. Couldn't be said better then that.

-Gio

laguns
05-15-2009, 8:51 AM
Made contact with DOJ. I'm e-mailing them the invoice as we speak.

Good work, you did exactly what Grey Davis and his team intended, you are helping to get rid of gun stores.


"Sorry we couldn't get here sooner, lady. We had to do a private party transfer."

That's total BS!



Folks, if the sate really gave a crap about people doing private party transfers they would assist in the effort. Wake up!


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Bruce
05-15-2009, 9:14 AM
Folks, if the sate really gave a crap about people doing private party transfers they would assist in the effort. Wake up!


They did. They put a cap on what the dealer can charge. Instead dealers make up stories about how much they can charge, and rip off the consumer. I'd much rather go to an honest dealer for follow up merchandise, ammo, holsters, consignments, etc;, than some clown who has story for every occasion.

halifax
05-15-2009, 9:21 AM
Good work, you did exactly what Grey Davis and his team intended, you are helping to get rid of gun stores.



I do feel for LA dealers that have to deal with the LAPD gun unit but...


Only two reasons I can think of that would put a gun store out of business over PPTs:

1) the shop doesn't have enough other business to sustain it and absorb the occasional PPT.

2) the shop gets shut down for repeatedly violating the PPT $35 maximum LAW.

Greg-Dawg
05-15-2009, 9:22 AM
How do I get into this action? A gun shop in Burbank charged me $100+ for a gun that was transferred from another shop in CA.

BONECUTTER
05-15-2009, 9:27 AM
How do I get into this action? A gun shop in Burbank charged me $100+ for a gun that was transferred from another shop in CA.

They can charge what ever they want for a dealer transfer. Private Party transfers are capped at $35.00.

berto
05-15-2009, 9:30 AM
Good work, you did exactly what Grey Davis and his team intended, you are helping to get rid of gun stores.

The shady FFL is the one potentially getting rid of his store. And he's doing it for $10.

Gunowners as a group push following the law. To do otherwise risks our rights. The law says $10. Don't charge more and don't invent fees that "go to the feds" when they go in the dealer's pocket.

We wouldn't support a dealer who charged an extra fee to shorten the mandated waiting period. We wouldn't support a dealer who sold off book. The rules often make little sense but we need to follow them.

laguns
05-15-2009, 9:35 AM
When I first opened in 1993 we could charge what ever we wanted and do the transfers anytime. B&B charged $35 plus $14 DROS fee so I charged $20 plus $14 to get people to come to me. Then DOJ decided they should get $25 for the DROS and we should only get $10. After that I did transfers only on Fridays. Well a client informed me that we have to do transfers anytime, and a quick call to DOJ confirmed that they did indeed change the rules again without sending out a notice. What's next, $35 for DOJ and nothing for the dealers, and they have to stay open seven days a week?

B&B ended up closing because of this nonsense and now the two biggest and lowest priced gun stores in So Cal are gone. Bob (the owner) was responsible for thousands of NRA memberships and was one of the biggest pro-gun supporter (both vocally and financially) in the state.

Yes it true, any dealer who knowingly breaks the PPT law for ten bucks is either a fool, or just pissed off. Either way Grey Davis laughing his *** off.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Ugly Dwarf
05-15-2009, 9:35 AM
I would not like the government telling me what I can charge for my services, and if a FFL does make approximately minimum wage in doing a transfer, we should be grateful that they provide the service.

The thing we should not forget is that this mandated fee is to protect us as consumers. We are legally obligated to do all transfers through a licensed dealer in this state.

In most states, this requirement does not exist. Dealers and consumers are not burdened by this administrivia, so it is a non-issue.

Allowing a dealer to charge 'whatever the market will bear', could be an unfair limitation on the otherwise legal transfer in a place with limited access to an FFL.

I've seen a local FFL charge charge my buyer more than legally allowed. They did not seem receptive when I mentioned it (twice). I've not turned them in or named them here, but I'll think twice before taking my business back... and I've bought a number of guns from them in the past three years.

I agree that $10 is not much money for the service offered. On the other hand, I know a number of dealers who can turn these around in a hurry (5-10 minutes per visit), because they're efficient and know what they're doing. Anyone who's been to Roger's Relics knows how these transactions SHOULD happen. Most of my business has gone here in the last year. It just requires more effort on my part to time purchases / pick-ups with my visits to the South Bay.

laguns
05-15-2009, 9:38 AM
How do I get into this action? A gun shop in Burbank charged me $100+ for a gun that was transferred from another shop in CA.

That's not a private party transfer and the state has not regulated that fee....yet



I agree that $10 is not much money for the service offered. On the other hand, I know a number of dealers who can turn these around in a hurry (5-10 minutes per visit)

There's paperwork after the customer leaves you don't see. I've done hundreds of transfers and I can assure you it takes a lot more time than five to ten minutes. That isn't really the point. The point is dealers can, and should only charge $35 but they are so pissed that they are willing to break the law for ten buck. What does that tell you?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Greg-Dawg
05-15-2009, 9:51 AM
Bummer, I thought I had a case.

DDT
05-15-2009, 9:55 AM
When I first opened in 1993 we could charge what ever we wanted and do the transfers anytime. B&B charged $35 plus $14 DROS fee so I charged $20 plus $14 to get people to come to me. Then DOJ decided they should get $25 for the DROS and we should only get $10. After that I did transfers only on Fridays. Well a client informed me that we have to do transfers anytime, and a quick call to DOJ confirmed that they did indeed change the rules again without sending out a notice. What's next, $35 for DOJ and nothing for the dealers, and they have to stay open seven days a week?

B&B ended up closing because of this nonsense and now the two biggest and lowest priced gun stores in So Cal are gone. Bob (the owner) was responsible for thousands of NRA memberships and was one of the biggest pro-gun supporter (both vocally and financially) in the state.

Yes it true, any dealer who knowingly breaks the PPT law for ten bucks is either a fool, or just pissed off. Either way Grey Davis laughing his *** off.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

If you feel like going after the state for forcing you to work for less than minimum wage go for it. But don't go after the customer for walking into a store with the expectation that the store is following the law only to find out they are charging more than the advertised price. Would you make similar excuses for any other business that advertises a service for price A and then charged more once you are in the store? All the firearms education going on is advertising for the service of performing a PPT and a dealer charging more is nothing more than a bait and switch.


So, you should call this dealer and let him know that he is playing right into the hands of the BoF by gauging his customers for a PPT.

laguns
05-15-2009, 10:27 AM
You are right, I'll call him today.

Matt C
05-15-2009, 10:31 AM
You are right, I'll call him today.

Don't be surprised if he tells you to kiss his but too. He is a total arsehat, and he is LYING and telling people the other $10 is a "Federal Fee".

joeyriv
05-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Exactly as hawk1 described it. Besides, it's not as if PPT's are an FFL's core business. If it is, they need to change their strategy, (build up an inventory, have a sale, do mammograms on the side, anything!!).
Retail 101 here.

hill billy
05-15-2009, 11:07 AM
He's not so nice on the phone. :D

PORCH
05-15-2009, 11:48 AM
Good work, you did exactly what Grey Davis and his team intended, you are helping to get rid of gun stores.



I didn't want to turn them in. I love guns and I know that I need FFL's in order for me to purchase guns. I don't want to cause anyone to go out of business. But this guy needs a wake up call. I pointed it out to them after I dropped the gun off and when I picked it up. When I picked it up I had two different sources of information showing them that they were wrong. They told me that I was wrong, were disrespectful to me and lied to my face about the charges. They need to be kept in check in somehow. I can't do it personally so hopefully the DOJ will handle it appropriately. I know that some of you don't think that $10 is that big of deal. To me it can be sometimes as I am a college student living on a limited budget. It's also just the principle that they are knowingly screwing over gun owners. We're all supposed to be on the same team. PPT's shouldn't be a gun store's main source of revenue, so the they're only making $10 argument doesn't fly. If they are counting on PPT's to make their business successful, then they're in trouble. The main point is, they got caught and chose to be A-Holes to me instead of just resolving it. I wouldn't have called the DOJ had they admitted that they were wrong. I'm not out to be a FFL nazi, like I said, I need those guys.

Oldnoob
05-15-2009, 1:56 PM
Put GUN KINGS ARMORY (in Glendale) on the over charge PPT fee as well. I did a PPT with a fellow cal gunner through them about 2 weeks ago. And they have sign all over the store saying from Feb. 1st 2009, tax when up and they have to charge $40 for PPT ($30 for state, and $10 for them). I did not want to cost trouble because I was the buyer and I really want the gun.

However, I did call them on phone AFTER I pick up my gun and this guy on phone just keep BSing me saying it's the state's fault.

I understand FFL don't make money out of PPT, $10 is not worth of their time. But it's part of whole package, a duty for them to KEEP their license.

hawk1
05-15-2009, 2:35 PM
When I first opened in 1993 we could charge what ever we wanted and do the transfers anytime. B&B charged $35 plus $14 DROS fee so I charged $20 plus $14 to get people to come to me. Then DOJ decided they should get $25 for the DROS and we should only get $10. After that I did transfers only on Fridays. Well a client informed me that we have to do transfers anytime, and a quick call to DOJ confirmed that they did indeed change the rules again without sending out a notice. What's next, $35 for DOJ and nothing for the dealers, and they have to stay open seven days a week?

B&B ended up closing because of this nonsense and now the two biggest and lowest priced gun stores in So Cal are gone. Bob (the owner) was responsible for thousands of NRA memberships and was one of the biggest pro-gun supporter (both vocally and financially) in the state.

Yes it true, any dealer who knowingly breaks the PPT law for ten bucks is either a fool, or just pissed off. Either way Grey Davis laughing his *** off.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

B&B didn't close up because they were forced to do $35 PPT's...:rolleyes:

E Pluribus Unum
05-15-2009, 3:23 PM
Put GUN KINGS ARMORY (in Glendale) on the over charge PPT fee as well. I did a PPT with a fellow cal gunner through them about 2 weeks ago. And they have sign all over the store saying from Feb. 1st 2009, tax when up and they have to charge $40 for PPT ($30 for state, and $10 for them). I did not want to cost trouble because I was the buyer and I really want the gun.

However, I did call them on phone AFTER I pick up my gun and this guy on phone just keep BSing me saying it's the state's fault.

I understand FFL don't make money out of PPT, $10 is not worth of their time. But it's part of whole package, a duty for them to KEEP their license.

They need to be VERY careful about that... take pictures of those signs....

Taking money as "taxes" and pocketing it is a FELONY in California.

RandyD
05-15-2009, 3:56 PM
California has allowed the dealer to sell firearms, part of that provision is that the dealer must do private party transactions at a mandated fee. He does not have to do PPT's, but in return he won't be allowed to sell firearms. See how that works?
If he thinks he's losing money doing PPT's, then ask him how much he'll make not selling any firearms at all?

Your response is assuming some facts that were not stated in my earlier post. When my friend explained this situation to me he was not complaining; he was simply explaining the beauracratic process to me. The services that he provides using his FFL is a hobby for him and his family and he does this out of his home. He primarily provides this service to members of our local gunclub. He provides these services willingly because he wants to serve firearm enthusiasts, and he likes and enjoys the company of fellow gun owners.

If the law requires that an FFL provide this service at a stated cost then that is the way it has to be until the law is changed. But I do not agree with such a law. The government has the right to regulate. It does not have the right to place mandatory obligations on anyone much less set the market price of that private service.

To the person who posted that the government set a price limit on this service to protect the consumers, I have a few comments that I would like you to consider. Do you really believe that liberal politicians (you know, the ones who hate guns and gun owners) really enacted a law to protect your interests so FFL dealers would not overcharge you? Do you believe a privately owned enterprise should be obligated to provide a service to you at a cost that is below minimum wage? If you answer yes to these two questions, you have some socialist tendencies.

Ground Loop
05-15-2009, 5:13 PM
I have yet to encounter a >$35 PPT fee, but I'd call the DOJ on the spot without hesitation.

I'm required to follow the law -- that's why I'm in the store paying $35 to transfer a $150 shotgun in the first place. Paying a fee to transfer my own private property to another citizen.. that's the law.

They can't charge 15% sales tax either. I don't see how this is different. Be in the FFL business, or don't be in the FFL business, just don't lie to me about what the law is and expect me to pay extra. You're supposed to be the gun law expert, fer crying out loud. Argh.. Put out a freekin tip jar if you want.

E Pluribus Unum
05-16-2009, 1:29 AM
To the person who posted that the government
set a price limit on this service to protect the consumers, I have a few comments that I would like you to consider. Do you really believe that liberal politicians (you know, the ones who hate guns and gun owners) really enacted a law to protect your interests so FFL dealers would not overcharge you? Do you believe a privately owned enterprise should be obligated to provide a service to you at a cost that is below minimum wage? If you answer yes to these two questions, you have some socialist tendencies.

I did not make the comment but I will answer.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that as a business owner, you have free market rights. This meaning as a business you have a right to charge what the market will bear. I agree with that; except.

The reason you give up your "free market" rights is because the government has MANDATED that we come to you. Under normal circumstances, you have a right to set prices at whatever you want. Under these circumstances you do not because the government is requiring all private transfer of firearms go through an FFL. What if FFLs decided to charge $100.00 for all PPT transfers? If I had a Glock for sale, and you had a brand new Glock for sale in your store for $600, I would have to accept $300 to be able to sell a used one. What if you were the only store in town and you decided to charge $400.00 for PPTs?? That would make any PPT transfer well above your dealer inventory thereby making it uneconomical to sell a gun the RIGHT way. As a consumer, I might decide to just sell it face to face without an FFL and risk it.

[seller mentality]
As it is right now, the LEGAL transfer only costs me (as a seller) $35. I am not going to risk going to jail over $35.00, I am going to transfer a gun the RIGHT way each and every time. If I were charged $100 per gun... it might change my mind.
[/seller mentality]

That is by design. In order to incourage sellers using gun stores, they mandate a cheap PPT fee.

Think of it this way:

I am a computer technician. My "bread and butter" is network support. I charge $85/hour for network support. Once a year or so, I have to sell computers at or slightly below cost because that is what the competition sells them for. I cannot refuse to sell them computers because then they will call the OTHER guy for support. I sell these computers at or below cost happily, knowing that later I will make money on future transactions.

FFL's are forced to do $35 PPT transfers. That is just the cost of doing business. Clients that are treated fairly on this transaction will come back for future gun purchases that may not be PPT.

Quiet
05-16-2009, 1:39 AM
Report them to the CA DOJ BOF and the CA Deparment of Consumer Affairs.

Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

DDT
05-16-2009, 1:44 AM
You are right, I'll call him today.

Thanks. Was he any more receptive to a former FFL calling? I hope so. It would be very good if we were all on the right side of the law while we work very hard to change the law to stop infringing on our rights.

Bruce
05-16-2009, 7:17 AM
B&B didn't close up because they were forced to do $35 PPT's...:rolleyes:


O.K. Now that you have our attention, please tell us why they went out of business.

hawk1
05-16-2009, 8:07 AM
Your response is assuming some facts that were not stated in my earlier post. When my friend explained this situation to me he was not complaining; he was simply explaining the beauracratic process to me. The services that he provides using his FFL is a hobby for him and his family and he does this out of his home. He primarily provides this service to members of our local gunclub. He provides these services willingly because he wants to serve firearm enthusiasts, and he likes and enjoys the company of fellow gun owners.

If the law requires that an FFL provide this service at a stated cost then that is the way it has to be until the law is changed. But I do not agree with such a law. The government has the right to regulate. It does not have the right to place mandatory obligations on anyone much less set the market price of that private service.



My response does not assume anything. The one thing I should have made more clear is that if he or any FFL does not sell to the public, he does not have to do PPT's.
When your friend applied for his FFL he gave the government the right to inspect his home at any time that they wish within business hours. I'll bet he doesn't like that mandate either, but it is granted as a condition to being issued a license to sell firearms.
You or the FFL have a right to disagree with any law, you do not have a right to ignore it.

hawk1
05-16-2009, 8:42 AM
O.K. Now that you have our attention, please tell us why they went out of business.

I shouldn't have to prove what he said was true or not.
With that said, in the end, B&B filed for bankruptcy. Some say it was because the partnership between the brothers went bad, others say it was because they had a business plan to offer low priced firearms to get people in the door then tell the customer that they only had one or two of those which were sold and proceed to sell higher priced weapons to the customers but when firearm sales dropped off they couldn't sustain that and the infighting started, another had to do with their requirement to hold firearms 12 days and then charge the customer storage fee's for those extra two days. A complaint was filed with DOJ, but in the end they were cleared of that because they told buyers upfront in writing that they would be charged.

I'm sure there are many more stories and maybe a bit of truth in all of them, but for sure, they didn't close up because they were forced to charge only $35 for PPT's. Anyone here that was a customer of B&B's knows how busy that place was. You walked in the door and you took a number. It was as bad as the post office or DMV waiting for your turn. The only good thing in that waiting was being able to walk around the store and check out all the neat stuff being offered for sale...

I know there a few people here at Calguns that know the real reason. Hopefully they will reply.

E Pluribus Unum
05-16-2009, 8:50 AM
My response does not assume anything. The one thing I should have made more clear is that if he or any FFL does not sell to the public, he does not have to do PPT's.
When your friend applied for his FFL he gave the government the right to inspect his home at any time that they wish within business hours. I'll bet he doesn't like that mandate either, but it is granted as a condition to being issued a license to sell firearms.
You or the FFL have a right to disagree with any law, you do not have a right to ignore it.

Only if the home is the place of business. If the FFL has a place of business and never takes any business-related items home, an FFL is not free license to enter his home. They have free license to enter the place of business.

hawk1
05-16-2009, 8:59 AM
Only if the home is the place of business. If the FFL has a place of business and never takes any business-related items home, an FFL is not free license to enter his home. They have free license to enter the place of business.

I just used the info he provided. In this case his home. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't know that they can.

FFL is a hobby for him and his family and he does this out of his home

CALI-gula
05-16-2009, 10:45 AM
This BS would stop if the DOJ bothered to send a memo to all of those FFLs. AG Moonbeam doesn't have to be a computer expert, to pull all of them on his mailing list. It takes seconds to type out a message and mass e-mail it to everybody.

Well, THAT has been done on numerous occasions. And was emailed. To all FFLs. See attached. Just one of a few bulletins that had been sent to each and every FFL over the years. Furthermore, apparently it does not take a computer expert to simply log onto the DOJ/BOF website to see the first heading of link on the main home page, entitled "Information Bulletins" right under "General Information" and do what an FFL should be doing regularly anyway. So, who is to blame for this ignorance? The FFL in question.

See link to PDF below from 3/26/2001: This is NOT a new issue, and has been known for years. Any FFL not abiding by the law by now is clearly and willfully breaking the law with intent to rip people off. The first two paragraphs of the notice/memo/bulletin does not get any clearer:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/

AND... it's as plain as checking the CA DOJ/BOF website link of most ALL the important Information Bulletins issued to FFLs over the the past several years going back to 11/16/1998.


http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

.

CALI-gula
05-16-2009, 11:04 AM
In this case the dealer's charges should be consistent with the law, and by the accounts posted here, he should reconsider his attitude and customer service. However, we should also consider what it is like to be in his position. I have a friend who has a FFL. He explained to me the work involved in doing transfers and by his calculations he earns less than minimum wage to perform a transfer. I would not like the government telling me what I can charge for my services, and if a FFL does make approximately minimum wage in doing a transfer, we should be grateful that they provide the service.

Then work to get the law changed, but follow the law, when it is the law. The gun laws of this state are all too often fought by the general population of consumers, whereby many dealers willfully ignore politics. Well here is one law that has been around for nearly 10 years, but no mass of FFLs have bonded together to petition the idea that the fixed $10 is illogical in the face of inflation. Even our own state legislature and many citys' councils feels the need to increase taxes by 1% (or more) and have increased the DROS fees, but then expect the fee an FFL can charge for a transfer to never change?

That evidence right there is argument enough for these FFLs to make a good case.

It's up to an Association of FFLs to defend their rights to get this taken care of - but is there one? When we were fighting AB-50, I came across MANY FFLs that gave apathetic attitudes about it, were adverse to .50BMG rifles, did NOT want to involve themselves in fighting it, and in some cases, actually expressed their enjoyment over such bans because it helped increase purchases of said rifles 100 times over what would have been the normal selling rate for the next ten years combined. Some even encouraged such bans (or like our current times) just to turn a fast buck.

Well, again, if these FFLs would like to get involved with fighting back CA gun laws for once, here is one they can really sink their teeth into.

.

CALI-gula
05-16-2009, 11:11 AM
When I first opened in 1993 we could charge what ever we wanted and do the transfers anytime. B&B charged $35 plus $14 DROS fee so I charged $20 plus $14 to get people to come to me. Then DOJ decided they should get $25 for the DROS and we should only get $10. After that I did transfers only on Fridays. Well a client informed me that we have to do transfers anytime, and a quick call to DOJ confirmed that they did indeed change the rules again without sending out a notice. What's next, $35 for DOJ and nothing for the dealers, and they have to stay open seven days a week?

B&B ended up closing because of this nonsense and now the two biggest and lowest priced gun stores in So Cal are gone. Bob (the owner) was responsible for thousands of NRA memberships and was one of the biggest pro-gun supporter (both vocally and financially) in the state.

Yes it true, any dealer who knowingly breaks the PPT law for ten bucks is either a fool, or just pissed off. Either way Grey Davis laughing his *** off.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Oh please - Bob and the store had financial issues out the wazoo. Yes, they did get rode hard (and raided) by the DOJ because a couple of loud-mouthed agents came in and expected special treatment and pricing on a transfer. However, that had nothing to do with their closing.

Bad business operations and financial issues closed B&B, nothing more.

.

CALI-gula
05-16-2009, 11:28 AM
I shouldn't have to prove what he said was true or not.
With that said, in the end, B&B filed for bankruptcy. Some say it was because the partnership between the brothers went bad, others say it was because they had a business plan to offer low priced firearms to get people in the door then tell the customer that they only had one or two of those which were sold and proceed to sell higher priced weapons to the customers but when firearm sales dropped off they couldn't sustain that and the infighting started, another had to do with their requirement to hold firearms 12 days and then charge the customer storage fee's for those extra two days. A complaint was filed with DOJ, but in the end they were cleared of that because they told buyers upfront in writing that they would be charged.

I'm sure there are many more stories and maybe a bit of truth in all of them, but for sure, they didn't close up because they were forced to charge only $35 for PPT's. Anyone here that was a customer of B&B's knows how busy that place was. You walked in the door and you took a number. It was as bad as the post office or DMV waiting for your turn. The only good thing in that waiting was being able to walk around the store and check out all the neat stuff being offered for sale...

I know there a few people here at Calguns that know the real reason. Hopefully they will reply.

This is spot-on, among other issues.

.

PORCH
05-17-2009, 9:31 PM
Report them to the CA DOJ BOF and the CA Deparment of Consumer Affairs.

Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

Should I notify the District Attorney as well?

E Pluribus Unum
05-17-2009, 9:45 PM
The key here is the dealer is claiming to be collecting:

$25 for DROS
$10 for State Fee
$10 for Federal Fee

Total $45.00


We all know there is no $10 federal fee; my question is, if he is collecting a $10 federal fee, who is he paying it to? If he cannot establish that he is paying that money to a government agency then he has committed some serious state and federal felonies because he is charging a government fee and then pocketing it for profit. It is very bad ju ju. If they investigate it and he is just making an honest mistake, nothing should come of it. That being said, I don't know how someone in business for any length of time could be collecting $10 fees and after a while start to wonder "I wonder who Im supposed to give the fee to" and look into it.

He will have some "splainin" to do... that much is sure.

DDT
05-17-2009, 9:47 PM
No need to notify the DA. However; if this guy has really got your panties in a bunch and you want to well and truly piss him off you can send a letter via registered mail telling him that you've notified the DOJ and requesting he refund you the overage after he talks with the DOJ.

Then, in a month or so just file a small claims case against him. This should cause enough of a pain in his butt that he will stop over charging. I am not sure if small claims judges can refer a case to the DA for something as small as a misdemeanor.

PORCH
05-17-2009, 11:06 PM
The DOJ doesn't want me to contact him until after they have visited him. I guess so that way he doesn't have time to try and cover up.

E Pluribus Unum
05-18-2009, 12:22 AM
The DOJ doesn't want me to contact him until after they have visited him. I guess so that way he doesn't have time to try and cover up.

I guess you messed that one up. Posting the guys business on an activist website. He obviously has already been inundated with emails and phone calls.... I'm sure the DOJ will catch him with his pants down...:rolleyes:

PORCH
06-11-2009, 4:55 PM
I have a little update on the situation for you guys. I've been in contact with the DOJ since I first contacted them and their agents were going to be visiting Range Masters this week. So they told me to go in there today or tomorrow and ask for a refund. So i went about an hour ago and asked to talk to the owner but I was told he was out but I could leave my name and number and they would have him call me, so I did that. As I was getting into my truck a lady(the owner's wife I'm pretty sure) came outside and asked if she could help me. So I said that I was there to get a refund because I was overcharged for a private party transfer. She asked if I had a minute to go inside. So i went inside with here and she immediately started processing my refund, no questions asked. After she was done with it she started a big apology speech how she hope there were no hard feelings and if we saw each other on the street we would still wave and say hi and how they purchased the company from somebody else and were just continuing the stores policy and weren't aware of the law. And then she said something that absolutely floored me. She proceeded to say that from now on I should just take my business somewhere else where they can better serve my needs. I was so flabbergasted by this statement that she made right after she was telling me about how she wanted to be all friendly and apologized for their mistake. I just responded, "well if that's how it's going to be then" and walked out. After leaving I started to become angry with myself for not asking why they longer wanted my business right after she said she wanted to be friends. Then after a little while I'm glad that I did not get into with her because she was not their for the original situation. The beef is with her husband.

My observations from this whole thing are that in fact the DOJ followed through with what they said they would do. I don't know how they handled the situation but it obviously was effective. This is apparent to me based off of that the woman was familiar with the situation and refunded me with the money with no questions asked whatsoever (I was prepared to engage in a debate though. I had the law sited from three different sources and the phone number to the DOJ representative that I have been speaking with on speed dial). It was also clear to me that they were not happy about being reported to the DOJ even though the fact that I reported them to the DOJ was never brought up. I also found it amusing that the lady told me a different story as to why I was overcharged than her husband and other employees had originally. They originally told me that the extra $10 was a federal fee. Today I was told that they purchased the company from someone else and that was the policy in place when they took over and weren't aware of the law. That is flat out BS. I showed them the law the first time that I disputed the charges and I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about and basically told I was a liar (It clearly states that a dealer can only charge a max of $25 + $10. A sixth grader could understand that, yet they still objected). Also I am a student here at Cal Poly and am currently a senior (graduating on Sunday :smartass: ) I have been going in that store since I first moved here my freshman year and I can't say for sure that they owned it then but they have at least owned it for the last three years. So they're basically saying that for at least three years they have supposedly been charging a $10 federal fee and haven't been able to figure out until now that they have nowhere to send that money. Furthermore one of the employees originally told me that he had the whole $35 ppt debate before with customers that were misinformed. So after customers have told them they were breaking the law before, they never thought hey maybe we should check into that. Lastly there is no way in hell that they did not know the law. How can they be running a gun shop for at least three years before knowing one of the most clear cut basic gun laws. How can you open up a business and not know one of the most fundamental laws.

The morale of the story is they got what they deserved. They were playing with fire by breaking the law and they got burned. I know it's only $10 and that is not very much to a lot of people, but to a student like me that might be the difference in being able to buy an 18 pack of Stones or not :cheers2: . Also it's just the principle that they are screwing their customers over. I didn't want to have to get the DOJ involved, but I had no other options. I gave them two chances to make the situation right before I called the DOJ and reported them. I had long ago already decided to not give them anymore business after they called me a liar and the unethical treatment of their customers so there's no skin off of my back for them asking me to take my business elsewhere in the future. I would recommend to all the Central Coast gun owners out there to take their business elsewhere. Go to Four Seasons Outfitters in SLO or one of the shops in Atascadero, Morro Bay or Santa Maria.

I'm still deciding whether or not I'm going to call back and ask to talk to the owner and ask him why I was asked to take my business elsewhere. I was really hoping that he was going to be the one I was dealing with today, so that way I could hear an apology from him after he so adamantly told me I didn't know what I was talking about before. Sure would of been nice to see him eat humble pie. I just want to tear his BS excuse apart for all the reasons I mentioned above about my observations. In the end I probably won't call him because I got my money back and they got in trouble so it all worked out and no use in keep bringing up the situation.

Lastly to any of you out there that get overcharged for a PPT, try and explain to the FFL first that they are overcharging you. Show them the law and give them the chance to make it right. If they still refuse to correct the problem, contact the DOJ and let them know the situation. They will handle it from there. Make sure it shows on the receipt though a breakdown of the charges. After you turn it over to the DOJ stay in contact with them to find out when they will be visiting the store, so that way you can go get your refund. They never contacted me to let me know, I had to keep asking them.

ajaffe
06-11-2009, 5:39 PM
I agree with your course of actions 100%. I am tired of hearing the, "Oh we need every FFL we can get", sob stories. Plain and simple, the FFLs that are rude, snobby, and treat you like second rate people do not deserve to be in business regardless of whether or not they sell guns. I wholey support businesses such as Bright Spot Pawn, TURNERS SAN MARCOS, So Cal Guns as of late, Paul Johnson Co (Cheapest transfers in San Diego next to Gussler's), and the like for one reason, they treat me with the same respect that I treat them with.
Time to trim the fat in terms of people that have bad business practices.

wildhawker
06-11-2009, 5:55 PM
Lastly there is no way in hell that they did not know the law. How can they be running a gun shop for at least three years before knowing one of the most clear cut basic gun laws. How can you open up a business and not know one of the most fundamental laws.

Businesses are started (and maintained, for however long) by people without the fundamentals of business management (including legal knowledge) more often than not; to be fair, the real world is much more complex than as presented in even Poly courses, so given a different attitude I'm inclined to give businesses the benefit of the doubt.

Also it's just the principle that they are screwing their customers over.

You pay more than $45 for the average transfer; are these FFLs, then, ROYALLY screwing their customers for transfers? I think not. Businesses are in business to provide a something for something (usually, financial compensation). Unethical behavior is unacceptable, but to say they are "screwing" customers is a stretch.

I'm still deciding whether or not I'm going to call back and ask to talk to the owner and ask him why I was asked to take my business elsewhere. I was really hoping that he was going to be the one I was dealing with today, so that way I could hear an apology from him after he so adamantly told me I didn't know what I was talking about before. Sure would of been nice to see him eat humble pie. I just want to tear his BS excuse apart for all the reasons I mentioned above about my observations. In the end I probably won't call him because I got my money back and they got in trouble so it all worked out and no use in keep bringing up the situation.

Probably wise not to call and become a harrassing disgruntled ex-customer. You know what his (their) position is- why ask a question to which you already know the answer and have no opportunity for further upside? You won. Further, it may be worthwhile to evaluate your motivations and need to "win him over" - this might prove more valuable to you over the course of your life than that $10 you were refunded.

Sometimes we are better off leaving the vengeance and justice to others.

Don't mistake my comments as disapproval of your actions with DOJ; as others have stated, the law is the law.

PORCH
06-11-2009, 6:23 PM
Businesses are started (and maintained, for however long) by people without the fundamentals of business management (including legal knowledge) more often than not; to be fair, the real world is much more complex than as presented in even Poly courses, so given a different attitude I'm inclined to give businesses the benefit of the doubt.

I can understand that maybe Joe Blow that starts a gardening business might not know every obscure law on the books that pertains to his business. But a gun store owner that has been in business for a minimum of three years not knowing a fundamental law about transfers, I'm not buying that. This store does a lot of business. I would guess that at the very minimum they do one PPT a week. The reason that I don't give him the benefit of the doubt is because I was given two completely different reasons as to why I was overcharged. Plus I showed him the law but he just shot it down.



You pay more than $45 for the average transfer; are these FFLs, then, ROYALLY screwing their customers for transfers? I think not. Businesses are in business to provide a something for something (usually, financial compensation). Unethical behavior is unacceptable, but to say they are "screwing" customers is a stretch.

I agree with you to a point. I am a firm believer in capitalism and expect goods and services to come with a price. However I will stick by my statement that they are screwing people. Knowingly overcharging customers for something they are required by law to do at a certain price is unethical and I believe screwing the customers. FFL transfers are a whole different story.


Probably wise not to call and become a harrassing disgruntled ex-customer. You know what his (their) position is- why ask a question to which you already know the answer and have no opportunity for further upside? You won. Further, it may be worthwhile to evaluate your motivations and need to "win him over" - this might prove more valuable to you over the course of your life than that $10 you were refunded.

I completely agree with you on this point. The more and more that I think about it the less desire I have to call him.

wildhawker
06-11-2009, 6:36 PM
I can understand that maybe Joe Blow that starts a gardening business might not know every obscure law on the books that pertains to his business. But a gun store owner that has been in business for a minimum of three years not knowing a fundamental law about transfers, I'm not buying that. This store does a lot of business. I would guess that at the very minimum they do one PPT a week. The reason that I don't give him the benefit of the doubt is because I was given two completely different reasons as to why I was overcharged. Plus I showed him the law but he just shot it down.


I appreciate your perspective, but please understand that business is a messy, well, business.

I've witnessed (intimately) many multi-$M business operations and transactions by large and well-established companies that would make you cringe, maybe worse- not lawnmowing, I can assure you. Sometimes there's greed and malice, sometimes ignorance, sometimes a bit of each. However, in almost every business is an area to be found lacking if contrasted with applicable laws and regulations.

PPTs are simply areas with more exposure; look deeper than the surface at most companies you see as upstanding (and, largely, they probably are) and you will find skeletons, they just may not so directly (or blatantly) impact *you*.

Again, however, you did the right thing given the facts and appear to have handled the situation admirably.

marc4
06-11-2009, 7:35 PM
Has anyone called the dealer and asked how much do they charge to do PPT's? Just curious if he has changed his tune after the DOJ visit.

PORCH
06-11-2009, 8:10 PM
I would guess that there probably pretty cautious right now considering the DOJ was just there today. Would probably be better to try in a month or so. Who knows, maybe they aren't scared at all. I have no clue as to what the possible consequences are from the DOJ.

AaronHorrocks
06-12-2009, 10:46 AM
Worst case, they could loose thier FFL. But that's not going to happen over a $10 mistake. Trader's Sports in Oakland lost thier FFL, but I've heard some crazy stories about screwups they did, and it was big stuff.

fairfaxjim
06-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Worst case, they could loose thier FFL. But that's not going to happen over a $10 mistake. Trader's Sports in Oakland lost thier FFL, but I've heard some crazy stories about screwups they did, and it was big stuff.

Trader's Sports FFL wasn't jerked for $10 PPT gouging, like you said - in fact I did a number of them there when they were still an FFL, and that seemed to be one of the few things they did correctly, cheerfully, and quickly. I guess they figured - rightly so, if we are only getting $10 for this, we better do it quick to cut our losses. Maybe instead of fighting it, these other FFL's should do likewise, get their s**t together and do these PPT's efficiently. After all, it is basically just a DROS with an extra ID and a couple extra signatures.

I think, considering how a lot of FFL's seem to treat customers anyway, it is more of a resistance to being told how much they can charge than the fact of how little it is. Charging that extra $10 or $15 is their way of pulling the tiger's tail, not really a source of much extra $$.

Tankhatch
06-12-2009, 11:14 AM
I maybe wrong,,,, but is it not true,,, that before the 1990's NO PPT's paperwork was required to buy a long arm (face to face) from a fellow Kalifornian by a Kalifornian. The FFL's should be a little happy, that PPT's are required now days and they make $10 and get you into the shop to do paperwork and to maybe buy or order stuff from them. (impulse buy)

Point is,,,, pre 1990's FFL's made no money on any long arm interstate face to face transfers.
Now at least,,,, the make $10 bucks on every transfer and get you into their place of business to window shop and buy.

Also,,,, this regulated fee was a pacifier to suppress the public outrage that would have occured (that should have occured) when the paperwork system was mandated. The public accepted the $35 fee and the mandation,,,, the public would not have accepted a mandation were fee were not controled.

My feelings back then,,,, when the PPT stystem was mandated,,,, was FFL's were supporting the PPT paperwork being implemented SO they would have a piece of the pie when any guns were sold person to person (face to face).

Serpentine
06-12-2009, 12:36 PM
There's two sides to this issue of PPT's.

1. There are a lot of benefits for the FFL to be doing PPT's. I find I get a lot of repeat customers out of it. It's a chance to make an impression and a new customer, to sell accessories like scopes and mounts, etc. Hopefully the customer remembers you the next time he wants to buy or sell a firearm, ammo, or an accessory.

2. Sure it's a PITA to say the least to do PPT's. The average person on the other side of the dealer's counter may not be aware of, nor can appreciate what back office paperwork, data entry, accountability, responsibility, overhead, storage, and man hours that PPT's can eat up. $10 bucks is $6 after income taxes. We also have our data entry hours limited by the DOJ to 7:00 AM to 11:00 PM. Many guys buy their gear and accessories exclusively online to save a few bucks and to avoid paying the local sales tax, and only use an FFL when they have to. This has taken a big bite out of the side selling a lot of FFL's used to depend on to make up for the very small profit on new guns and the PPT's.

Police and Sheriff departments used to do the PPT transfers, but the paperwork became very cumbersome over the several years of additional laws, requirements, and restrictions, etc. Not every department desk clerk was capable of the meticulous attention to detail required for these 'legal document' transactions. Now those agencies no longer do any firearms transactions.




.

ChuckBooty
06-12-2009, 1:03 PM
Maybe I missed it...what place is this again?

Tankhatch
06-12-2009, 1:28 PM
Its a funny thing,,,,,,
Initially, the powers that be,,, got away with saying (to the public) all the ppt & dros paper work would not prohibit every Americans right / nor slow down that right (if qualified) to purchase a firearm.

Guess the were full of "brown stuff" and the public ate it.

FFL's of today,,,,, were sold out by the FFL's of yesterday in the creation of the mass of paperwork to make business for themselves. So FFL's accept the fees limits, just as us consumers must accept the hassle of paperwork and 10 day waits.

FFL's it takes you a hour to process the paperwork. (I understand the hoops you jump through)
BUT,,, for us consumers, it takes 14,400 minutes of waiting, for its delivery.

wildhawker
06-12-2009, 1:33 PM
I'd love to debate some of your assertions in another thread. Why not start a "FFLs Have it Easy, PPTs are a Cakewalk and Should Not Cost >$35" thread and support your argument to FFLs and businesspeople?

Its a funny thing,,,,,,
Initially, the powers that be,,, got away with saying (to the public) all the ppt & dros paper work would not prohibit every Americans right / nor slow down that right (if qualified) to purchase a firearm.

Guess the were full of "brown stuff" and the public ate it.

FFL's of today,,,,, were sold out by the FFL's of yesterday in the creation of the mass of paperwork to make business for themselves. So FFL's accept the fees limits, just as us consumers must accept the hassle of paperwork and 10 day waits.

FFL's it takes you a hour to process the paperwork. (I understand the hoops you jump through)
BUT,,, for us consumers, it takes 14,400 minutes of waiting, for its delivery.

Tankhatch
06-12-2009, 4:05 PM
Like somebody said, earlier in this thread,,,
$35 clams to transfer a rifle, that you only paid $50 for, you might call this an out of wack, excise tax of $35 on $50 item.

That ain't right.

Assuming the dros & ppt requirement ain't going away for long arms. (it should)

What would be right for FFL's, would be what auction houses charge for services lets say a 8.25 % rate on the for $$ cost of gun with a few special rules The dros already has the cost box,,, so its a no no to fudge the value.

Example #1
$100 rifle, cost to transfer would be $8.25 + $25 (dros) = $33.25, dealer eats $1.75 from todays way of business. Consumer smiles

Example # 2
$1000 rifle, cost to transfer would be $82.50 + $25 (dros) = $107.50, dealer wins $72.50 from todays way of business. Consumer screems

Example # 3 Mediated
$1000 rifle, cost for service would be $82.50, but have rule that anything over $35,,, would have the cost of dros paper work inclusive to the cost of service.
So,,,, $1000 rifle, cost of service would be $82.50 out the door (FFL makes $57.50)

We all live with auction houses taking % of value,,,
aka like eBay listing & final value + Pay/Pal dealer fees for a seller, equal about 10 % lost of sale $$ to them A-Holes.

Catch 22,,,,, inorder to get this PPT thing acceptable and let OCD anti-types get their foot in the door, they made the paperwork processing cheap. So everybody would make paperwork for them to follow (pun intended) instead of not doing paperwork. (So cheap infact,,,, not paying would show contemp of the rules)

FFL's YOU are right,,,,, to much paper pushing / risk for $10,,,, (But the OCD anti's love it)

gidddy169
06-12-2009, 4:23 PM
I have shot and bought a few handguns from Rangemasters while I was down in College and I found them reasonable but they always seemed to have an attitude. One day I asked the about CCW and they basically acted like I was criminal. I didn't understand it but that is how they were, I am glad someone did something, they just didn't have a good attitude towards anyone that isn't in their 40's or 50's.

PORCH
06-12-2009, 4:35 PM
Maybe I missed it...what place is this again?

Rangemasters in San Luis Obispo, I think they have a store in Santa Maria too.

ChuckBooty
06-12-2009, 4:45 PM
Rangemasters in San Luis Obispo, I think they have a store in Santa Maria too.

Ah....should we send hate mail?:D Seriously though....I can't stand some of these gun shops. I dare say that MOST shops I've been in are like this in some way. Know-it-all, condescending, and down right abusive to their customers.

kap
06-12-2009, 5:11 PM
Like somebody said, earlier in this thread,,,
$35 clams to transfer a rifle, that you only paid $50 for, you might call this an out of wack, excise tax of $35 on $50 item.

That ain't right.

Assuming the dros & ppt requirement ain't going away for long arms. (it should)

What would be right for FFL's, would be what auction houses charge for services lets say a 8.25 % rate on the for $$ cost of gun with a few special rules The dros already has the cost box,,, so its a no no to fudge the value.

Example #1
$100 rifle, cost to transfer would be $8.25 + $25 (dros) = $33.25, dealer eats $1.75 from todays way of business. Consumer smiles

Example # 2
$1000 rifle, cost to transfer would be $82.50 + $25 (dros) = $107.50, dealer wins $72.50 from todays way of business. Consumer screems

Example # 3 Mediated
$1000 rifle, cost for service would be $82.50, but have rule that anything over $35,,, would have the cost of dros paper work inclusive to the cost of service.
So,,,, $1000 rifle, cost of service would be $82.50 out the door (FFL makes $57.50)

We all live with auction houses taking % of value,,,
aka like eBay listing & final value + Pay/Pal dealer fees for a seller, equal about 10 % lost of sale $$ to them A-Holes.

Catch 22,,,,, inorder to get this PPT thing acceptable and let OCD anti-types get their foot in the door, they made the paperwork processing cheap. So everybody would make paperwork for them to follow (pun intended) instead of not doing paperwork. (So cheap infact,,,, not paying would show contemp of the rules)

FFL's YOU are right,,,,, to much paper pushing / risk for $10,,,, (But the OCD anti's love it)

... except that the FFL adds nothing to the PPT equation. An auction house brings in bidders and attempts to sell your items for more money than you are likely to get selling it yourself. The auction house receives payment for helping you create value in your item and selling it for you. The FFL is simply licensed to do something just like a public notary who interestingly get $10 per document for similar services.

I think the better solution is that there should be no FFL or paperwork required to do a PPT.

WallyGeorge
06-12-2009, 5:16 PM
Rangemasters in San Luis Obispo, I think they have a store in Santa Maria too.

The Rangemasters in San Luis Obispo and Santa Maria are now two different owners. The old owner Rob (think it was Rob) was pretty cool and knew his stuff, but the new San Luis owners (been awile since it changed hands) still clusterf*** everything they get their hands on. They have good prices, but some of the employees need an attitude adjustment.

kap
06-12-2009, 5:17 PM
Rangemasters in San Luis Obispo, I think they have a store in Santa Maria too.

You should go to Four Season's Outfitters.

Serpentine
06-12-2009, 8:04 PM
... The FFL is simply licensed to do something just like a public notary who interestingly get $10 per document for similar services.

I think the better solution is that there should be no FFL or paperwork required to do a PPT.

If you really knew, there is no comparing a Notary to what an FFL has to do to complete a PPT.

It would be great to not require an FFL in a PPT, but that ain't going to happen in this state again. I can think of a few neighbors that should not have firearms. On weekends and holidays - their homes look like a police department substation with so many cop cars coming and going. Should they have the ability to buy guns without a background check?

I would like to see it back in the hands of LE agencies to do the background checks, storage, stay up on the laws, pay the insurance, maintain the shop overhead, pay the employees, pay for advertising, comply with annual inspections from local Sheriff, ATF, and DOJ agencies, do the data entry, pay for the safes, triple check the forms, print the DROS, pay for the alarm system, the rent, the utilities, etc., etc......... for $6 per hour after taxes. The LE agencies got smart - they got out of it!



.

Rudolf the Red
06-12-2009, 9:31 PM
I charge $34 to undercut all my competition. :43:

thempopresense
06-12-2009, 9:33 PM
If FFL's have such a gripe about how little they are aloud to charge, why don't they get together have the law changed.

Serpentine
06-12-2009, 9:43 PM
If FFL's have such a gripe about how little they are aloud to charge, why don't they get together have the law changed.

Because (given the small numbers of CA FFL's) it's wiser to just cut your losses and get out of the business, do something else, which is what has happened to a lot of CA FFL's. The gun owners are the ones that can change things, and they are finally doing that in many cases, but the PPT thing won't change until CA FFL's are few and far between - when the gun buyers reach bottom.



.

Nodda Duma
06-12-2009, 9:48 PM
It would be great to not require an FFL in a PPT, but that ain't going to happen in this state again. I can think of a few neighbors that should not have firearms. On weekends and holidays - their homes look like a police department substation with so many cop cars coming and going. Should they have the ability to buy guns without a background check?




With all due respect, this is a frightening statement. Arbitrarily removing an American's right to keep and bear arms based on how frequent a police officer visits one's residence is not a path we want to travel down as a free nation.

Just remember, states in The Free World do not require any type of paperwork for private sales of firearms (they are not known as "transfers," the use of which to me sounds like a request for permission from a government entity). Many of those states have crime rates lower than CA.

-Jason

Serpentine
06-12-2009, 9:53 PM
You would understand if you met my neighbor. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt too, and I did, but after time, the guy really is off the hook and should be in jail! I think the only reason he isn't is because the jails are full.

It's not a perfect world my friend.




With all due respect, this is a frightening statement. Arbitrarily removing an American's right to keep and bear arms based on how frequent a police officer visits one's residence is not a path we want to travel down as a free nation.

Just remember, states in The Free World do not require any type of paperwork for private sales of firearms (they are not known as "transfers," which to me smacks of requesting permission of a government entity). Many of those states have crime rates lower than CA.

-Jason

galekowitz
06-12-2009, 10:43 PM
If you live in SLO county I recommend Atascadero Arms for PTT. They helped me with a out of state handgun PPT that was a cluster on the other guys side, and my first CalGuns PPT. Also you dont have to pay the SLO city tax on any other purchase. Atascadero arms also stocks complete uppers. Plenty of PMC .45 and defense rounds. They should hook me up next time after this compelling endorsement.
.

PORCH
06-12-2009, 11:11 PM
If you really knew, there is no comparing a Notary to what an FFL has to do to complete a PPT.

It would be great to not require an FFL in a PPT, but that ain't going to happen in this state again. I can think of a few neighbors that should not have firearms. On weekends and holidays - their homes look like a police department substation with so many cop cars coming and going. Should they have the ability to buy guns without a background check?

I would like to see it back in the hands of LE agencies to do the background checks, storage, stay up on the laws, pay the insurance, maintain the shop overhead, pay the employees, pay for advertising, comply with annual inspections from local Sheriff, ATF, and DOJ agencies, do the data entry, pay for the safes, triple check the forms, print the DROS, pay for the alarm system, the rent, the utilities, etc., etc......... for $6 per hour after taxes. The LE agencies got smart - they got out of it!



.

You're making an assumption that criminals are buying their guns legitimately, which we know is not true because they obviously still have guns. That's why all these restrictive gun laws are useless, the only ones that follow them are honest law abiding citizens and why the whole PPT thing is pointless. I read a book a few years back and it gave the statistics for how many crimes the whole background check process prevents annually . I don't remember the number exactly but it was less than 10 I want to say.

PORCH
06-12-2009, 11:12 PM
If you live in SLO county I recommend Atascadero Arms for PTT. They helped me with a out of state handgun PPT that was a cluster on the other guys side, and my first CalGuns PPT. Also you dont have to pay the SLO city tax on any other purchase. Atascadero arms also stocks complete uppers. Plenty of PMC .45 and defense rounds. They should hook me up next time after this compelling endorsement.
.

I agree, the one time that i went in there, they were the nicest people in the world to me. Also as another poster mentioned above Four Seasons in SLO is run by pretty friendly people.

kap
06-12-2009, 11:46 PM
If you really knew, there is no comparing a Notary to what an FFL has to do to complete a PPT.

Beyond the obvious paperwork what does the FFL have to do to complete the PPT transactions?

Serpentine
06-13-2009, 3:14 AM
Besides the paperwork? Well, just off the top of my head; it would be time mainly, but you can't forget about the rent, licensing (three different agencies), permit fees, storage, utilities, safes, bars, alarms, inspections, inventory control, legal fees, accounting fees, training, property and liability insurance, wages, medical coverage, disability coverage.......etc.

This is all part of the whole when you factor a percentage of your premises and business hours are spent on PPT's, which alone are non-profitable, and they take you away from time that could be spent making a profit.

Don't get me wrong. I do the PPT's for the mandated amount of $35, and I'm happy to have the customer in the end. I'm just saying that the business could not survive on PPT's alone. I have to be making a profit on something besides, at some point.


Beyond the obvious paperwork what does the FFL have to do to complete the PPT transactions?

bigcalidave
06-13-2009, 3:44 AM
Besides the paperwork? Well, just off the top of my head; it would be time mainly, but you can't forget about the rent, licensing (three different agencies), permit fees, storage, utilities, safes, bars, alarms, inspections, inventory control, legal fees, accounting fees, training, property and liability insurance, wages, medical coverage, disability coverage.......etc.

This is all part of the whole when you factor a percentage of your premises and business hours are spent on PPT's, which alone are non-profitable, and they take you away from time that could be spent making a profit.

Don't get me wrong. I do the PPT's for the mandated amount of $35, and I'm happy to have the customer in the end. I'm just saying that the business could not survive on PPT's alone. I have to be making a profit on something besides, at some point.

Can't agree with you there. You make the money to pay for all those things by selling GUNS. If you want to sell guns, you agree to do the PPTs for people who want to buy guns from other people for $10. If doing this gives you the opportunity to have one or two people come into your store, that would otherwise not be there, it's good business. It's like being paid for advertising! If you have people who actually have some sales skills (really rare in gun stores! ) they then have the chance to say things like, hey, that's a nice glock you're buying, I've got magazines and a great holster for it over there -->... OR..
You can have people selling guns to eachother without visiting your store, and buying all the parts and accessories online. Without ever getting the chance to meet you or see how well you can treat your customers.
I hate the attitudes of a lot of gun store employees. Both in personal experience and from others posting here. They have no sales ability. They are rude. Some even break the law to make a few extra bucks. ALL OF THEM should be happy they get to be the only ones selling and transferring guns in this state, which lets them be open, busy and profitable.
Maybe if we are lucky some of these "laws" will get changed, and we won't have to visit these FFLs so often, since it's such a hassle for them to have us stupid customers.
No you can't run the business by doing only PPTs. But that's not the business you are in, is it. So in reality, when someone needs a ppt done, you have an employee fill out a few forms and tag a gun to put in the safe. What else is there?

Darklyte27
06-13-2009, 7:53 AM
so was this matter taken care of yet?

ahh found it post 66

Alright, Porch you did the right thing. What you did is not just for yourself, but for future PPT'ers. Hopefully they will change.
I agree that some people should go in again to test them if they are breaking the law still.

Im glad you stood up for what is right and not let it go as some people say "oh its only 10$" Heck if the FFL store does a good job and makes me a happy customer I might just give you a 10$ tip.

Congrats on your graduation too.

tonelar
06-13-2009, 8:13 AM
The only solution to this nonsense would be restoring the "Private" aspect to PPT.

Before it was required for us to conduct PPTs in Cali, I sold a shotgun and 4 handguns legally. No 10 day wait, no permission from the State, just a handshake and a handwritten receipt between me and the buyer.

Knock on wood, but I've not had an inquiry from any LEO about those firearms in at least 20 years.

fairfaxjim
06-13-2009, 11:06 AM
The only solution to this nonsense would be restoring the "Private" aspect to PPT.

Before it was required for us to conduct PPTs in Cali, I sold a shotgun and 4 handguns legally. No 10 day wait, no permission from the State, just a handshake and a handwritten receipt between me and the buyer.

Knock on wood, but I've not had an inquiry from any LEO about those firearms in at least 20 years.

Yeah, I remember those days. I used to throw an old beater rifle into the mix - overpriced of course - whenever I had a garage sale back in those days. Man, the word would get around that I was selling guns at a garage sale and it would pack 'em in. Some fool would always end up buying the bait rifle too!

bwiese
06-13-2009, 11:17 AM
1. I'm not in favor of 'burning' FFLs that mistakenly charge fees in
excess of law.

2. Being an FFL in CA is hard enough, we don't really need to reduce
the number.

3. We're in a rock-vs-hard spot situation. Fees for PPTs do not
really cover legit FFL work/time/labor and lost 'opportunity costs':
most shops will effectively be in the hole for a PPT. At the same
time, do we really wanna campaign for raising these fees?

4. Let the marketplace speak and spread the word about this idiot
employee/FFL. Eventually he'll 'behave'.

5. He probably won't get too burned by DOJ over this. BoF needs
a certain number of FFLs to exist to justify their existence.

HowardW56
06-13-2009, 11:50 AM
1. I'm not in favor of 'burning' FFLs that mistakenly charge fees in
excess of law.

2. Being an FFL in CA is hard enough, we don't really need to reduce
the number.

3. We're in a rock-vs-hard spot situation. Fees for PPTs do not
really cover legit FFL work/time/labor and lost 'opportunity costs':
most shops will effectively be in the hole for a PPT. At the same
time, do we really wanna campaign for raising these fees?

4. Let the marketplace speak and spread the word about this idiot
employee/FFL. Eventually he'll 'behave'.

5. He probably won't get too burned by DOJ over this. BoF needs
a certain number of FFLs to exist to justify their existence.


For $10.00, let the guy make a buck. I don't dispute that the state only permits the FFL to charge $10.00 above the state fees, but for the 20 - 30 minutes involved, it isn't enough...

I always buy a couple boxes of ammo or a can of Breakfree, solvent, or something else from the FFL's that charge the only $35.00 fee...

PORCH
06-13-2009, 12:06 PM
For $10.00, let the guy make a buck. I don't dispute that the state only permits the FFL to charge $10.00 above the state fees, but for the 20 - 30 minutes involved, it isn't enough...

I always buy a couple boxes of ammo or a can of Breakfree, solvent, or something else from the FFL's that charge the only $35.00 fee...



He did make more than a few bucks from me. I bought some targets and solvent while there. Also the guy I bought the gun from used the money I paid him to turn around and buy a brand new gun from them. Heck the whole reason that I chose to use them over Four Seasons was for the simple fact that they carry a lot of tactical and law enforcement stuff and the guy I was buying from is a sheriff, so I decided to go do it there with the thought in my mind that the seller might want to buy something from them. I understand that they aren't making very much on the deal, but that's the law and I don't expect them to take advantage of me.

fairfaxjim
06-13-2009, 12:08 PM
1. I'm not in favor of 'burning' FFLs that mistakenly charge fees in
excess of law.

2. Being an FFL in CA is hard enough, we don't really need to reduce
the number.

3. We're in a rock-vs-hard spot situation. Fees for PPTs do not
really cover legit FFL work/time/labor and lost 'opportunity costs':
most shops will effectively be in the hole for a PPT. At the same
time, do we really wanna campaign for raising these fees?

4. Let the marketplace speak and spread the word about this idiot
employee/FFL. Eventually he'll 'behave'.

5. He probably won't get too burned by DOJ over this. BoF needs
a certain number of FFLs to exist to justify their existence.

If 5 is true, that excludes 1 or 2 really having any effect on the number of FFL's. What this does point out is the absolutely "vacuum headed" thinking that produces these laws to begin with.

If we just let the rouge dealers charge what they want and go with #4, then the DOJ, and consequently no other arm of the government associated with these stupid procedures know that "it isn't working." If #5 is true, then I would just as soon see the DOJ hammered with complaints about dealers overcharging.

The state has chosen to put these procedures in place. Once of the arguments at that time was that it would be too expensive. Their asinine response was to create the PPT pricing structure that didn't take into account that it was unreal for the dealers. The truth is that is either going to be too expensive for the private party buyers, causing non compliance, or too cheap for the dealers, causing, whoa how about this, non compliance.

The state should have to deal, hopefully on a daily basis, with a law that is not realisitc and is causing non-compliance. You notice how often the sponsor of a new bill cheerfully says how he is SURE that people will be more than willing to pay this SMALL price for the HUGE benefits of his/her bill. Problem is, the price is never that small and the benefits are never huge.

PORCH
06-13-2009, 12:12 PM
1. I'm not in favor of 'burning' FFLs that mistakenly charge fees in
excess of law.

2. Being an FFL in CA is hard enough, we don't really need to reduce
the number.

3. We're in a rock-vs-hard spot situation. Fees for PPTs do not
really cover legit FFL work/time/labor and lost 'opportunity costs':
most shops will effectively be in the hole for a PPT. At the same
time, do we really wanna campaign for raising these fees?

4. Let the marketplace speak and spread the word about this idiot
employee/FFL. Eventually he'll 'behave'.

5. He probably won't get too burned by DOJ over this. BoF needs
a certain number of FFLs to exist to justify their existence.


Bill, first off I thank you for all the hard work you have put into restoring our rights as gun owners and the work that you continue to do. I have only been a member here for a short period of time now, but from what I understand from reading other threads, you have been pretty instrumental to our fight. I don't agree with your first point. If this guy was simply ignorant of the law, then I would have not reported him. But I tried to show him the law and gave him two chances to make it right. He knew what he was doing and didn't seize the opportunity to get out of it when I called him on it. I know $10 is not a lot of money to most people, but as a student it means something to me. I respect your opinion though.

DDT
06-13-2009, 1:23 PM
1. I'm not in favor of 'burning' FFLs that mistakenly charge fees in
excess of law.


Nor am I. I don't really think many folks are, though ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. PORCH showed the person the law and I KNOW they get informational pamphlets and bulletins from BoF about things like these fees. There is little room to honestly believe that the FFL in question wasn't aware of the legal fees invovled.


2. Being an FFL in CA is hard enough, we don't really need to reduce
the number.

This is true. But being in business has certain obligations, following the law is one of those.


3. We're in a rock-vs-hard spot situation. Fees for PPTs do not really cover legit FFL work/time/labor and lost 'opportunity costs': most shops will effectively be in the hole for a PPT. At the same time, do we really wanna campaign for raising these fees?


This is a cost of doing business just like a gas station pumping gas for the disabled. If you don't like the limits you don't have to open a shop. I would love to take the PPT process out of the hands of gun shops and stick it back with the cops, or better yet, remove the whole DROS system for PPTs. Put pressure on your local legislators like any other business does that doesn't like their own business taxes/rules.

4. Let the marketplace speak and spread the word about this idiot
employee/FFL. Eventually he'll 'behave'.

But, if we do that and quit going to his store then he'll go out of business violating your edict in #2 above. Shouldn't we just go to the nearest FFL regardless of quality of service or price? This would help ensure the greatest number of FFLs in the state. Also, we should have a talk with all the FFLs that offer discounts as this hurts the business of their fellow FFLs and we don't want any of them to go out of business.

5. He probably won't get too burned by DOJ over this. BoF needs a certain number of FFLs to exist to justify their existence.

Hopefully he only got burned enough to realize there is a fire waiting if he keeps stealing from customers.

bwiese
06-13-2009, 2:29 PM
[quote=PORCH;2626724 I don't agree with your first point. If this guy was simply ignorant of the law, then I would have not reported him. But I tried to show him the law and gave him two chances to make it right. He knew what he was doing and didn't seize the opportunity to get out of it when I called him on it. I know $10 is not a lot of money to most people, but as a student it means something to me.[/quote]


With only ~700 FFLs in the whole state of CA (and a fair fraction pretty useless crap sellers like Big5) I cannot see trashing someone for $10-$15.

You're blaming the gunshop for a morass of laws and idiot legislators.

You really did no good here - created some drama, and made this FFL more fearful and he may be aggressive in future for doing legal off-roster transfers, OLLs, etc.

If you're that desparate for $10, don't drink 3 or 4 Starbucks and you've broken even. I've never seen a really broke 'college student' - they seem to have plenty of money for ITunes etc. If you can afford the gun you can afford the extra nickel or dime.

Far more harmful to us than these plus or minus $10 issues are the FUD FFLs that spread misinfo about OLLs being illegal, or ones like Evan's Gunsmithing that try to curry favor with DOJ by spreading FUD about OLLs.

ke6guj
06-13-2009, 2:44 PM
I understand your feelings on this Bill, but is it fair for those FFLs to overcharge for a PPT or otherwise push people off to others FFLs due to store policies such as, PPTs only on Mondays between 12:00-12:30, or making them wait until there are no other customers in the store?

So, by breaking the law, they are pushing PPTs to other dealers, those dealers that play by the rules, who are forced to take on the extra burden of doing PPTs that should have been done by the first dealer.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-13-2009, 3:04 PM
You're blaming the gunshop for a morass of laws and idiot legislators.

No, he was blaming the gunshop for theft. The gunshop stole money from him. Some may just lie down and take it, figuring that $10 is not that much. Other's might not want to anger the gunshop by standing up against the theft. But he stood up for what is right.


You really did no good here - created some drama, and made this FFL more fearful and he may be aggressive in future for doing legal off-roster transfers, OLLs, etc.

While standing up against a thief can be dramatic, I think it is a necessary drama. This whole idea of remaning docile toward agressive criminals in hopes that they don't get mad at us just doesn't work. It just tends to embolden the criminal.


Far more harmful to us than these plus or minus $10 issues are the FUD FFLs that spread misinfo about OLLs being illegal, or ones like Evan's Gunsmithing that try to curry favor with DOJ by spreading FUD about OLLs.

The idea that stopping this FFL from speading misinformation about PPT fees somehow will no cause the FFL to start spreading misinformation about something else seems far fetched. Unless you are saying that the FFL will now deliberately start spreading FUD about OLL's as retaliation for getting caught in the $10 thefts. If he's starts doing that then he is no better than the gang member who threatens witness if they "talk".

tenpercentfirearms
06-13-2009, 4:14 PM
I charge $34 to undercut all my competition. :43:

LOL. Awesome! I liked that a lot.

I disagree with Bill. You tried to show him the law and he ignored you despite clear evidence. The dealer brought this upon himself. If the dealer becomes gun shy and doesn't like the gun business anymore because he was breaking the law, then I guess he deserves to go out of business.

I think we should put government regulations will put the gun industry out of business rant to rest. There will always be people who don't know any better and decide to open a gun shop. They might not last forever, but they will pump guns into the market while they are there.

As long as Californians want guns, there will be gun dealers. There is no excuse for a gun dealer to break the law and especially not after being warned about it. If you don't want the DOJ talking to you, do your job.

9-12
06-14-2009, 1:27 PM
For $10.00, let the guy make a buck. I don't dispute that the state only permits the FFL to charge $10.00 above the state fees, but for the 20 - 30 minutes involved, it isn't enough...

I always buy a couple boxes of ammo or a can of Breakfree, solvent, or something else from the FFL's that charge the only $35.00 fee...

I'm getting tired of this rationalization. There is another Range Master in Santa Maria, just about 45 min. south of San Luis, not sure of any relation with the SLO store, though. These guys are selling off list AR lowers that they purchase for 125.00 for 299.00! That, my friend, is gouging. The mark up on most of the inventory is plenty profitable.
The law is the law. Interestingly enough, most of the affiliation in this particular store is LE, and I know they charge 45.00 for PPT.

E Pluribus Unum
06-14-2009, 4:51 PM
We have had this argument many times before. Every time it comes up I pose my side of it and no one seems to have a valid rebuttal.

The problem we have is this:

Yes, shops SHOULD be free to charge what they want in a free market. Unfortunately, California law does not allow for a free market. California law REQUIRES private transfer of firearms to be handled through a dealer. As such, it requires the citizen to do business with a FFL. If FFL's were free to charge what they wanted, it could make the private purchase of firearms too expensive. If dealers charged $200 for a PPT, more people would illegally purchase firerams without an FFL and risk it for the $200.00. At $35, most wont risk criminal charges and will use the FFL as required by law.

PPT's have to be viewed by FFLS as a "cost of doing business". They are few and far between. As a self-employed computer tech I often have to do "warranty work" when not technically required in order to keep and make new customers. For the benefit of being able to offer firearms for sale; you are required to do PPT transfers for $35.00. There is nothing hidden; it is disclosed up front that in order to sell firearms, PPT's are part of the bargain. If you decide that you do not want to do PPT's, then don't sell firearms.

For these reasons, it is what it is; if you don't like it, change the law to allow for private party transfers of firearms without the use of an FFL.

Serpentine
06-14-2009, 5:18 PM
We have had this argument many times before. Every time it comes up I pose my side of it and no one seems to have a valid rebuttal.

The problem we have is this:

Yes, shops SHOULD be free to charge what they want in a free market. Unfortunately, California law does not allow for a free market. California law REQUIRES private transfer of firearms to be handled through a dealer. As such, it requires the citizen to do business with a FFL. If FFL's were free to charge what they wanted, it could make the private purchase of firearms too expensive. If dealers charged $200 for a PPT, more people would illegally purchase firerams without an FFL and risk it for the $200.00. At $35, most wont risk criminal charges and will use the FFL as required by law.

PPT's have to be viewed by FFLS as a "cost of doing business". They are few and far between. As a self-employed computer tech I often have to do "warranty work" when not technically required in order to keep and make new customers. For the benefit of being able to offer firearms for sale; you are required to do PPT transfers for $35.00. There is nothing hidden; it is disclosed up front that in order to sell firearms, PPT's are part of the bargain. If you decide that you do not want to do PPT's, then don't sell firearms.

For these reasons, it is what it is; if you don't like it, change the law to allow for private party transfers of firearms without the use of an FFL.

Cost of doing business? Why do you think that all the LE Agencies got out of the PPT's! Yep, just shut their doors to it altogether throughout the state. Said we are not doing that anymore!! FFL's then "inherited" (Obama's favorite word of the day) PPT's.

Look at it a little differently for a moment. What if you were to sell your automobile on Craigslist, should the auto dealer be required to register the car to the new owner, test for smog compliance, do a safe handling/driving demonstration, do a maintenance/history diagnostics (background check), verify residency, take a thumbprint, photocopy ID's, POR's, verify your car's locks all work, alarm works, safety belts working, and the car is factory safe from theft or accidents, then hold your car under maximum security for 10 days, for $35 (of which the auto dealer actually pockets $6)? We should get rid of the DMV and Smog stations, and mandate that auto dealers register cars! Think of the money the state would save.

Wouldn't it be nice if Escrow companies were not required, and that the Real Estate Agents themselves would be responsible for all residential and commercial building transactions and the associated credit checks, lein checks, recording, etc., for $35 (of which the realtor pockets $6)! Heck, they don't even have to do the storage part! Let's do away with 'Closing Cost!'


Just trying to put this in perspective so no one thinks FFL's got it 'made in the shade.'




.

E Pluribus Unum
06-14-2009, 6:51 PM
Cost of doing business? Why do you think that all the LE Agencies got out of the PPT's! Yep, just shut their doors to it altogether throughout the state. Said we are not doing that anymore!! FFL's then "inherited" (Obama's favorite word of the day) PPT's.

Look at it a little differently for a moment. What if you were to sell your automobile on Craigslist, should the auto dealer be required to register the car to the new owner, test for smog compliance, do a safe handling/driving demonstration, do a maintenance/history diagnostics (background check), verify residency, take a thumbprint, photocopy ID's, POR's, verify your car's locks all work, alarm works, safety belts working, and the car is factory safe from theft or accidents, then hold your car under maximum security for 10 days, for $35 (of which the auto dealer actually pockets $6)? We should get rid of the DMV and Smog stations, and mandate that auto dealers register cars! Think of the money the state would save.

Wouldn't it be nice if Escrow companies were not required, and that the Real Estate Agents themselves would be responsible for all residential and commercial building transactions and the associated credit checks, lein checks, recording, etc., for $35 (of which the realtor pockets $6)! Heck, they don't even have to do the storage part! Let's do away with 'Closing Cost!'


Just trying to put this in perspective so no one thinks FFL's got it 'made in the shade.'




.

Call the wambulance. My comments still stand. FFL's know up front what they are required to do. If you don't want to do it, then don't sell guns.

Your analogy is not valid because private party transfer of automobiles is legal.

Firearms sales is a VERY lucrative business with a high markup. Spending 20-30 minutes to do a PPT has negligible cost involved.

Fjold
06-14-2009, 6:53 PM
Good for you Porch.

Serpentine
06-14-2009, 7:16 PM
Firearms sales is a VERY lucrative business with a high markup. Spending 20-30 minutes to do a PPT has negligible cost involved.

Two statements that clearly say you have no (Zero) experience in the trade. These illusions are probably what the general public thinks about FFL's. That we're all making big money and get our chicks for free...

Think I am starting to figure out why gun sales people always seem so, well....crapped on.






.

E Pluribus Unum
06-14-2009, 7:22 PM
Two statements that clearly say you have no experience in the trade.
Think I am starting to figure out why gun sales people always seem so, well....crapped on.
.

I have more experience than you might think. Average markup is above 20% and there is a lot less competition than in most businesses. I operate in a business that offers half the markup and twice the competition.

No one is being "crapped on". Listen, you have a choice to sell firearms. I find it hard to believe that ANY FFL business suffers a significant loss because of all the PPT's they are required to do. The government requires us to come to you; until that changes, you are stuck doing them at a set fee. I am sorry but that is just the way it is.

MaceWindu
06-14-2009, 7:28 PM
Instead of all of the complaining, why don't some people here become FFL's and start doing transfers themselves?

This would alleviate many problems and issues most have with FFL's and transfers.


Mace

Sobriquet
06-14-2009, 7:34 PM
Instead of all of the complaining, why don't some people here become FFL's and start doing transfers themselves?

This would alleviate many problems and issues most have with FFL's and transfers.


Mace

Especially in some of the urban areas. With LA Guns closed and all the pawn shops not dealing with firearms, it's a massive PITA to do a transfer.

9-12
06-14-2009, 7:48 PM
Oh, please. Plenty of gun stores are doing quite well and are plenty profitable, especially under these political conditions. The problem with most gun stores I see is they're owned by sportsmen-turned-businessmen who really have no clue how to run a retail business and your arguement and willingness in a business and professional environment to justify illegal business practices are exactly my point.
ETA...I don't think anyone is saying that FFL's have it made in the shade, either. Every business on the retail level has it's challanges, and a gun store is no different.Two statements that clearly say you have no (Zero) experience in the trade. These illusions are probably what the general public thinks about FFL's. That we're all making big money and get our chicks for free...

Think I am starting to figure out why gun sales people always seem so, well....crapped on.






.

HondaMasterTech
06-14-2009, 7:57 PM
Im not going to try pushing on something Ive never dealt with before but why is it ok for them to charge more than they are allowed?

Serpentine
06-14-2009, 8:07 PM
I have more experience than you might think. Average markup is above 20% and there is a lot less competition than in most businesses. I operate in a business that offers half the markup and twice the competition.

"Above 20%," ah come on now bro! Don't tell me (here on the 'net) you pay 20% above wholesale. Google is your friend.


No one is being "crapped on". Listen, you have a choice to sell firearms. I find it hard to believe that ANY FFL business suffers a significant loss because of all the PPT's they are required to do. The government requires us to come to you; until that changes, you are stuck doing them at a set fee. I am sorry but that is just the way it is.

That's because the cops couldn't do it right, so they dumped it on the FFL's. Turns out the average PD desk clerk wasn't schooled so well in accounting and law, or maybe because they didn't have enough incentive or interest to keep after it day in day out with a 99% quality expectation.

You are right, there is a choice. An FFL has a choice to do business with who he wants to, and with who he does not. It's no secret that the amount of FFL's in this state has been reduced dramatically over the past 3-5 years. There's nothing that says an FFL has to do local business, or even open his doors. Interstate commerce is far less of a PITA.

I do the PPT's without complaint, for the $35, but it gets really old reading these "I got took for $10 by a dealer" threads. That's someone that didn't think to ask the right brilliant questions before he got started, like 'how much will it cost?' If you didn't know, you should have asked, and if you asked, then why did you go ahead with it anyway?

If you're expecting the law to always take care of you, to always rescue you from bad things, then let this be a an inexpensive wake-up call. To be crying foul to the world, to lambaste a guy that's probably trying to get what he feels is fair and right for the work done, and to make a criminal complaint to the DOJ.... over $10....after the fact....like it was some sort of tragic experience you could not have foreseen - is a pretty bad sign of the times!



.

tenpercentfirearms
06-14-2009, 8:12 PM
Call the wambulance. My comments still stand. FFL's know up front what they are required to do. If you don't want to do it, then don't sell guns.

Firearms sales is a VERY lucrative business with a high markup. Spending 20-30 minutes to do a PPT has negligible cost involved.

I agree that FFLs should know what they are getting into and not complain about PPTs. I don't. They don't take long and maybe the gun will buy something while they are there.

However, the lucrative business with a high markup is laughable.

I have more experience than you might think. Average markup is above 20% and there is a lot less competition than in most businesses. I operate in a business that offers half the markup and twice the competition.

No one is being "crapped on". Listen, you have a choice to sell firearms. I find it hard to believe that ANY FFL business suffers a significant loss because of all the PPT's they are required to do. The government requires us to come to you; until that changes, you are stuck doing them at a set fee. I am sorry but that is just the way it is. What business are you in? In your 10% business do you get audited by the ATF and the DOJ? Are you as highly regulated as a gun dealer? The main reason I sell guns is I like them. Sure we do ok and I have more money than when I started, but I am not getting rich for the amount of time I put into it.

However, you are dead on about the PPT being no big deal. It is just part of the business. If I didn't like it, I would give up my license. It isn't ruining my day and I am not losing sales because of them. They are what they are.

9-12
06-14-2009, 8:32 PM
I do the PPT's without complaint, for the $35, but it gets really old reading these "I got took for $10 by a dealer" threads. That's someone that didn't think to ask the right brilliant questions before he got started, like 'how much will it cost?' If you didn't know, you should have asked, and if you asked, then why did you go ahead with it anyway?
Again, you make no sense.
I called, and I saked. I was told 45.00. That's called breaking the law and they know it. If my friend hadn't alerted me about this and directed me to this thread, I'd have never known.
It's like this...you get a parking ticket for 10.00...you don't pay it, guess what...you get a bench warrant issued and can be arrested, for a lousy ten bucks. The amount has nothing to do with it.

Kestryll
06-14-2009, 9:59 PM
Call the wambulance.

Grow up or get out.

I'm getting tired of the smartassed comments from far too many people recently and it's going to start costing people their accounts PERMANENTLY.

Trader Jack
06-14-2009, 10:28 PM
Grow up or get out.

I'm getting tired of the smartassed comments from far too many people recently and it's going to start costing people their accounts PERMANENTLY.


Go get em Mr. K. This is one time you are right on the money.:)

E Pluribus Unum
06-15-2009, 1:27 AM
Grow up or get out.

I'm getting tired of the smartassed comments from far too many people recently and it's going to start costing people their accounts PERMANENTLY.

I am not prone to infantile comments. My comment was to infer that HIS comment was infantile complaining.

"Above 20%," ah come on now bro! Don't tell me (here on the 'net) you pay 20% above wholesale. Google is your friend.

How is google my friend? Any time one buys a gun online, the local FFL charges $100+ to do the transfer. When the 50 cal rifle boom hit, local FFL's were charging 10% of retail value for internet-transfered 50 caliber weapons. Some dealers make it so that it costs more to do an internet transfer than it would just to buy the gun from them directly. These are precisely the reason $10 PPT's are mandatory; to keep FFLs from price fixing to entice purchasing in-stock firearms instead of PPTs.


That's because the cops couldn't do it right, so they dumped it on the FFL's. Turns out the average PD desk clerk wasn't schooled so well in accounting and law, or maybe because they didn't have enough incentive or interest to keep after it day in day out with a 99% quality expectation.

FIrst, you have not established any of this to be true, second, it is irrelevent. Does it really matter WHY the law was changed? The fact is, the law was changed and today it is what it is for whatever reason. Arguing about why is moot.


You are right, there is a choice. An FFL has a choice to do business with who he wants to, and with who he does not. It's no secret that the amount of FFL's in this state has been reduced dramatically over the past 3-5 years. There's nothing that says an FFL has to do local business, or even open his doors. Interstate commerce is far less of a PITA.


That is the wonder of capitalism. If you are the last local shop and you either close your doors, or raise your prices, there will be other shops soon behind you to offer a better deal. You have a right to do what you want as a business owner but if you are unreasonable, someone else who is not will come along who does not mind doing the PPTs.

I agree that FFLs should know what they are getting into and not complain about PPTs. I don't. They don't take long and maybe the gun will buy something while they are there.

However, the lucrative business with a high markup is laughable.


I have seen dealer prices; while it is true that some items (like Glocks) are less profitable, there are MANY things that bring in a very decent profit margin.



What business are you in? In your 10% business do you get audited by the ATF and the DOJ? Are you as highly regulated as a gun dealer?

I am in the computer business. With Walmart selling a brand new full computer system for $450.00 it pretty much puts a ceiling on computer prices. I am forced to sell the computer systems at cost or below in order to retain the consulting labor business that results from the sale.


The main reason I sell guns is I like them. Sure we do ok and I have more money than when I started, but I am not getting rich for the amount of time I put into it.

That is all about volume. You are in a strong redneck district but the sheer number of people in Taft don't compete to some of the bigger dealers like 2nd Amendment or Valley Gun. Not to mention your prices are better. :) There are many FFLs that make a fortune off their sales.


However, you are dead on about the PPT being no big deal. It is just part of the business. If I didn't like it, I would give up my license. It isn't ruining my day and I am not losing sales because of them. They are what they are.

Not to mention, being the only gun store in 30 miles, it brings in reciprocal business. ;)

PORCH
06-15-2009, 1:34 AM
I do the PPT's without complaint, for the $35, but it gets really old reading these "I got took for $10 by a dealer" threads. That's someone that didn't think to ask the right brilliant questions before he got started, like 'how much will it cost?' If you didn't know, you should have asked, and if you asked, then why did you go ahead with it anyway?

If you're expecting the law to always take care of you, to always rescue you from bad things, then let this be a an inexpensive wake-up call. To be crying foul to the world, to lambaste a guy that's probably trying to get what he feels is fair and right for the work done, and to make a criminal complaint to the DOJ.... over $10....after the fact....like it was some sort of tragic experience you could not have foreseen - is a pretty bad sign of the times!



I didn't ask how much they charged beforehand because I expected them to follow the law just as the seller and I were following the law by doing the REQUIRED PPT. Don't you think that people are annoyed by the fact that they have to deal with PPT's just as much as FFl's are.

I don't always expect the law to take care of me. As a matter of fact I'm a believer of less government and greater personal responsibility. However you can only play the hand your dealt. I only had two reasonable options to recover my money and I exercised them in a logical manner. The first one being pointing out the law to the guy and when that didn't work the only other logical option I had was to contact the authorities. Please tell me how else I could have recovered my money. Sure I could have used physical force, but then that is assault. I could have used my newly acquired to gun to rob him but then that is armed robbery. I could have stole $10 worth of product but that is theft. So please enlighten me how I could have recovered the money without relying on law enforcement. P.S. it wasn't an inexpensive wake up call because the "law" got me my money back. An inexpensive wake up call would have been if the "law" let me down and didn't get me my $10 back.

It doesn't matter what he feels is fair and right. He knew what duties he must perform when he signed up to be an FFL. If he didn't like that, then he shouldn't have become an FFL. PPT's don't make or break an FFL. If he needs PPT fees to make his business tick well then he shouldn't be in business. And you as well as others have talked about how much it costs FFL's to complete these transactions based on storage, alarms, etc.. That is a flawed way of thinking. Are you telling me that the dealer wouldn't have these expenses if they weren't doing PPT's. They're going to have to pay for the alarm system whether they have one gun or a 1000 guns inside their store. So they should really focus on keeping customers happy instead of alienating them so that way they do more sales thus lowering the cost incurred per unit.

To respond to your statement about me not foreseeing possibly being overcharged, you are dead wrong. I have only bought three guns for myself since I'm relatively young and haven't had a permanent source of income yet. Most of my guns have come in the form of presents. This was my first PPT and I didn't even know the difference between a regular transfer and a PPT until I joined this wonderful site a couple months ago. So yeah I didn't realize that some dealers acted unlawfully and gouged there customers. And I stand by what I did. I feel like I gave him plenty of opportunity to resolve the situation without having to get the DOJ involved. The fact of the matter is that I shouldn't have to defend myself. The FFL was in the wrong, not me. He created the conflict.

MaceWindu
06-15-2009, 8:36 AM
Instead of all of the complaining, why don't some people here become FFL's and start doing transfers themselves?

This would alleviate many problems and issues most have with FFL's and transfers.



This is a far easier solution than the constant complaining about it. Additionally, you can also go to another FFL who will perform the transfer to your satisfaction.

If a business is not performing a service to your satisfaction, simply take your business somewhere else?!

Or, you can go on the "internet" and complain and the issue will still remain.


Mace

Mssr. Eleganté
06-15-2009, 10:32 PM
This is a far easier solution than the constant complaining about it. Additionally, you can also go to another FFL who will perform the transfer to your satisfaction.

If a business is not performing a service to your satisfaction, simply take your business somewhere else?!

Or, you can go on the "internet" and complain and the issue will still remain.


Mace

Did you just quote yourself there Mace? :p

This isn't really a "customer service" issue. This is a "FFL breaking the law" issue. California licensed FFL Dealers are required by law to process PPT's for $35 max.

FFL's who charge more are breaking the law.
FFL's who tell people to go somewhere else to do a PPT are breaking the law.
FFL's who say they will only do PPT's for white people are breaking the law.

California forces gun owners to pay $35 and make two trips to a gunshop in order to do a PPT. California forces FFL's to do PPT's for only $10. Both sides here are screwed out of time and money by the stupid PPT requirement. Until we can get the law changed, why don't both sides just bite the bullet and do PPT's like the law says. No whining about it and no stealing of money from each other.

Is that so hard?

DDT
06-15-2009, 10:51 PM
You are right, there is a choice. An FFL has a choice to do business with who he wants to, and with who he does not.

Is this true or are FFLs required to do PPTs for ANY non-prohibited people who walk through the door?

MrSigmaDOT40
06-15-2009, 11:02 PM
Wow, I had wondered about this. I remember seeing the same thing back when I took my HSC, but have heard about PPT's being up to $100. I think anybody sticking it to gun owners needs to be taught a lesson. That kind of stuff turns new shooters away. The attitudes, and the what I say is law FUD that is still around in the bizz needs to stop. It's a new day, a lot of new shooters from all walks of life. The Cowboy attitude needs to be a thing of the past. I can only hope that people that still do business like this will be replaced quickly with younger, honest, hungry, more customer friendly people/businesses.

I saw tell the DOJ to "sic 'um boy!"

DDT
06-15-2009, 11:08 PM
Wow, I had wondered about this. I remember seeing the same thing back when I took my HSC, but have heard about PPT's being up to $100. I think anybody sticking it to gun owners needs to be taught a lesson. That kind of stuff turns new shooters away.

I think you may be confusing 2 issues. PPTs are for used guns transferred between 2 non-FFLs. I've never heard of anyone charging anything like $100 for a PPT.

For transfers coming into CA from an FFL that the purchaser cannot physically visit to conclude the deal has to go to an FFL local to the purchaser. It is these transfers that some FFLs are charging more for. There is no limit on what a dealer can charge and I can imagine a dealer being a bit unhappy about someone buying from a competitor and then expecting him to finish the paperwork on the deal.

Mssr. Eleganté
06-15-2009, 11:10 PM
Is this true or are FFLs required to do PPTs for ANY non-prohibited people who walk through the door?

They are required by law to do PPT's for any law abiding people who walk through the door. But if they don't sell handguns then they are not required to do handgun PPT's.

If the background check shows that the transferee is prohibited, the Dealer then has to return the gun to the transferor after running a background check on them. If the transferor then comes up prohibited, the Dealer has to turn the gun over to local law enforcement.

To turn people away for no good reason or to charge more than DROS + $10 is a misdemeanor.

cqbdude
06-15-2009, 11:36 PM
I called a store last week to see how much they charge for PPT and I was told $50.00. I was really surprised because I have done PPT's there a few months back and they charged me $35.00 back then.

I called again the next day to make sure, and I was told $50.00 for PPT.
I asked why they are charging more. They told me that the extra $15.00 was for storage fees..:D

Needless to say I did my PPT elsewhere.

MrSigmaDOT40
06-16-2009, 2:15 AM
I think you may be confusing 2 issues. PPTs are for used guns transferred between 2 non-FFLs. I've never heard of anyone charging anything like $100 for a PPT.

For transfers coming into CA from an FFL that the purchaser cannot physically visit to conclude the deal has to go to an FFL local to the purchaser. It is these transfers that some FFLs are charging more for. There is no limit on what a dealer can charge and I can imagine a dealer being a bit unhappy about someone buying from a competitor and then expecting him to finish the paperwork on the deal.


:D yea I think your right i did get it mixed up lol... BUT i do recall 1 Bay Area location telling me 100 sumthin for a transfer in from out of state. I may have been asking about transferring in an evil rifle i think. it was a long time ago Maybe it was less but it sure wasnt no $35.

I pretty much got the idea that any/all transferrs were costly.

Decoligny
06-16-2009, 8:29 AM
I didn't want to turn them in. I love guns and I know that I need FFL's in order for me to purchase guns. I don't want to cause anyone to go out of business. But this guy needs a wake up call. I pointed it out to them after I dropped the gun off and when I picked it up. When I picked it up I had two different sources of information showing them that they were wrong. They told me that I was wrong, were disrespectful to me and lied to my face about the charges. They need to be kept in check in somehow. I can't do it personally so hopefully the DOJ will handle it appropriately. I know that some of you don't think that $10 is that big of deal. To me it can be sometimes as I am a college student living on a limited budget. It's also just the principle that they are knowingly screwing over gun owners. We're all supposed to be on the same team. PPT's shouldn't be a gun store's main source of revenue, so the they're only making $10 argument doesn't fly. If they are counting on PPT's to make their business successful, then they're in trouble. The main point is, they got caught and chose to be A-Holes to me instead of just resolving it. I wouldn't have called the DOJ had they admitted that they were wrong. I'm not out to be a FFL nazi, like I said, I need those guys.

A guy at a bar spot a good looking woman. He has a $10,000 Rolex on hhis wrist, is wearing a $5,000.00 suit, and is obviously very rich. He asks her "Will you have sex with me if I give you a million dollars and a yacht?" She immediately say "Yes, of course". He then asks "How about for $50.00?" She replies angrily "What do you think I am a whore?" He replies "We've already established that, now we're haggling over the price."

These FFL who are ILLEGALLY overcharging for PPT are simply thieves. There is no difference between them and the pickpocket who reaches in a lifts a $10.00 bill from your pocket.

Having money taken from you illegally is theft, and a person who commits theft is by definition a thief.

Being ROBBED by a thief is a big deal.

Decoligny
06-16-2009, 8:46 AM
Worst case, they could loose thier FFL. But that's not going to happen over a $10 mistake. Trader's Sports in Oakland lost thier FFL, but I've heard some crazy stories about screwups they did, and it was big stuff.

Hitting the wrong key on the register is a mistake. Being shown the law, and telling someone that the extra $10.00 is for a Federal Fee is being a liar and a thief.

E Pluribus Unum
06-16-2009, 12:34 PM
Hitting the wrong key on the register is a mistake. Being shown the law, and telling someone that the extra $10.00 is for a Federal Fee is being a liar and a thief.

And a felon.

Knowingly collecting false taxes is a felony. By stating they are collecting a $10.00 federal tax and then pocketing the money, they are committing a felony.

9-12
06-16-2009, 6:28 PM
I called a store last week to see how much they charge for PPT and I was told $50.00. I was really surprised because I have done PPT's there a few months back and they charged me $35.00 back then.

I called again the next day to make sure, and I was told $50.00 for PPT.
I asked why they are charging more. They told me that the extra $15.00 was for storage fees..:D

Needless to say I did my PPT elsewhere.I've been told the same thing...35.00 for the transfer, and 25.00 for storage fee. I told the guy it was illegal, but I'm wondering. The statute says (I'm paraphrasing from memory) no other charges or fees are allowed, either related or attached to the transfer. Seems to be a bit of a grey rea.
I only have two FFL's in my area, and both charge more than 35.00.

E Pluribus Unum
06-16-2009, 6:44 PM
I've been told the same thing...35.00 for the transfer, and 25.00 for storage fee. I told the guy it was illegal, but I'm wondering. The statute says (I'm paraphrasing from memory) no other charges or fees are allowed, either related or attached to the transfer. Seems to be a bit of a grey rea.
I only have two FFL's in my area, and both charge more than 35.00.

There is no "gray area". Max fee is $10 for storage, labor, paperwork, PERIOD.

$10 + $25 = $35 MAX fee. They don't HAVE to charge $35, but they can charge no more than that. It is very clear in the law. One call to the DOJ is all it would take to get them straightened out.

9-12
06-16-2009, 6:51 PM
Playing devil's advocate, the storage fee is a seperate charge from the PPT. How can the government "prevent" a business from charging a storage fee? (Again, not being argumentative)There is no "gray area". Max fee is $10 for storage, labor, paperwork, PERIOD.

$10 + $25 = $35 MAX fee. They don't HAVE to charge $35, but they can charge no more than that. It is very clear in the law. One call to the DOJ is all it would take to get them straightened out.
And I'm not about to call the DOJ on the guy for 25.00. Then I'm SOL for an FFL.

ke6guj
06-16-2009, 6:59 PM
Playing devil's advocate, the storage fee is a seperate charge from the PPT. How can the government "prevent" a business from charging a storage fee? (Again, not being argumentative)
And I'm not about to call the DOJ on the guy for 25.00. Then I'm SOL for an FFL.

Because the PC prohibits it.

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

bwiese
06-16-2009, 7:07 PM
"Storage fees" cannot be charged for the actual hold during mandatory transfer waiting period: that's the key portion of the transfer.

However, I think "storage fees" could legitmately be charged by FFL if the purchaser does not pick up firearm(s) when ready - i.e, on the 13th day instead of 10th day, 3 days' storage fees. That additional time is not part of the transfer and is a voluntary delay by the buyer. This could probably also be charged if the transfer fails (i.e, denied/prohibited person).

9-12
06-16-2009, 7:12 PM
"Storage fees" cannot be charged for the actual hold during mandatory transfer waiting period: that's the key portion of the transfer.

However, I think "storage fees" could legitmately be charged by FFL if the purchaser does not pick up firearm(s) when ready - i.e, on the 13th day instead of 10th day, 3 days' storage fees. That additional time is not part of the transfer and is a voluntary delay by the buyer. This could probably also be charged if the transfer fails (i.e, denied/prohibited person).Well, that's what I told him. I've printed that section of the code and I'm going to show it to him. Thanks.

bohoki
06-16-2009, 7:28 PM
what i dont like is the hypocracy if they are willing to break the law for their own benefit why wont they let me slide and pick my gun up on day 9

i'd gladly pay another $10 to have my gun in 9 days especially if the 9th day is a saturday and they are closed on sunday so it turns into a forced 11 days

DDT
06-16-2009, 8:57 PM
:D yea I think your right i did get it mixed up lol... BUT i do recall 1 Bay Area location telling me 100 sumthin for a transfer in from out of state. I may have been asking about transferring in an evil rifle i think. it was a long time ago Maybe it was less but it sure wasnt no $35.

I pretty much got the idea that any/all transferrs were costly.

Currently only face to face transfers between to California residents are considered Private Party Transfers by the DoJ.

Any other transfer, either mailed to the FFL from in state or out of state, or if a non-resident brings in a gun for a face to face transfer are all treated differently and there is no limit to the fees a dealer can charge.

foxtrotuniformlima
06-16-2009, 9:42 PM
I went through the exact same event earlier this year.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=143893

One by one, Calgunners educating FFL's on the gun laws of our fine state!

9-12
06-17-2009, 7:18 PM
Follow up...
I presented my local FFL with a copy of the penal code today and told him, "hey...I just don't want you to get in trouble." I told him I didn't care from my point of view, but this is becoming more of an issue and there was no sense in giving the DOJ an extra reason to stick their nose anywhere near here.
I think there are a lot of dealers out there who really don't know the letter of the law, because once he read it, he said simply, "I guess I'll have to stop doing that". It's frustrating that they have taken the right to dictate to a store owner what he can or can't charge as far as his own fee. IMO that's not right.
Has anyone challanged the legality of this? Just curious...I know there are bigger fish to fry in this state.