PDA

View Full Version : Gun in the workplace question


CA_SHARPSHOOTER
05-14-2009, 1:42 PM
I am a part owner of a scrap yard (father and mother own as well) what are my limitations to keeping a firearm in the workplace for protection? does it have to be unloaded? does it have to be in plain view? can I keep it loaded in a drawer? I just have not been able to get any straight answers and I want to make sure I am in accordance with current laws.

thanks in advance

PolishMike
05-14-2009, 1:48 PM
Your property you can carry/keep it any way you like, including concealed carry.

wash
05-14-2009, 1:48 PM
I'm pretty sure you can carry loaded and concealed at work, just like your home.

demnogis
05-14-2009, 1:49 PM
CA Penal Code 12026 should have you covered if you are owner, part owner or live there:
(a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the
application of Section 12031.

Also 12031:
(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

ojisan
05-14-2009, 2:08 PM
As long as your Mom and Dad know and are OK with it, it is 100% legal to keep a firearm at your place of business, loaded or not, same as your home. You can also CCW at your business.
Your main concerns are ready access and security. Out of sight, out of mind is best with customers around and your back is turned. Leaving a loaded firearm where customers (and possibly their kids) could easily find it and pick it up opens you up to a lot of liability: theft, robbery, accidental discharges with possible injury and lawsuits. Not all customers will be comfortable with a firearm laying around either, even if only spotted when going into the drawer for something else.
Those quick-access small handgun safes sound perfect for you, and are much faster to open and much more secure than a drawer, locked or not.
Mounted under a counter top, it can be out of sight, fast and easy to get to and also secure. Spending about $100 for one might avoid a lot of headaches.
;)

Glock22Fan
05-14-2009, 2:24 PM
Note: Owners of a business can carry open or concealed on company premises. Employees can carry openly with their employers' permission, but I'm pretty sure that they may not carry concealed.

Edited: Unless they have their own CCW.

CA_SHARPSHOOTER
05-14-2009, 2:36 PM
thanks, are the laws the same if i rent the property?

bigcalidave
05-14-2009, 2:37 PM
Why not?

(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.

If you work there, you can carry concealed.

DB2
05-14-2009, 2:38 PM
I am a part owner of a scrap yard (father and mother own as well) what are my limitations to keeping a firearm in the workplace for protection? does it have to be unloaded? does it have to be in plain view? can I keep it loaded in a drawer? I just have not been able to get any straight answers and I want to make sure I am in accordance with current laws.

thanks in advance

I don't think I would GO to a scrap yard unarmed. At least the ones around here. If your the owner/partner, it is perfectly legal. Just like others have said. Although if you share a common parking lot with other businesses, I believe you cannot carry outside of YOUR premises. I have three firearms within reach right now, and I'm at work.:thumbsup:

GaryV
05-14-2009, 3:15 PM
If you work there, you can carry concealed.

Even if the (other) owners don't know.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2009, 3:26 PM
Why not?



If you work there, you can carry concealed.

I take your point. I based what I said on John Machtinger's book, usually considered to be reliable. He says:

Only owners of businesses may carry concealed guns in their place of business

He goes into a lot of talk about what constitutes an owner, but I must admit there does not seem to be a reference to the penal code.

Possibly my book is out of date, but I don't think there's been anything recent.

Omega13device
05-14-2009, 4:59 PM
This whole topic was discussed at length in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=132960

Note that under 12031 you're in violation if you're carrying loaded "in any public place or any public street", etc. The "place of business" exemption says you can "have" a loaded firearm at your place of business. It doesn't say you can carry a loaded firearm. If anyone can wander into the scrapyard during business hours then it's probably a public place. This is a distinction that came up in a criminal case (defendant was carrying loaded on his business property and was convicted under 12031) and there's some question as to whether the precedent would stand today, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.

megavolt121
05-14-2009, 5:04 PM
I take your point. I based what I said on John Machtinger's book, usually considered to be reliable. He says:

Only owners of businesses may carry concealed guns in their place of business

He goes into a lot of talk about what constitutes an owner, but I must admit there does not seem to be a reference to the penal code.

Possibly my book is out of date, but I don't think there's been anything recent.


I don't have his book, but it does bring up an interesting point... What constitutes an owner?

If I were an employee of eBay and I owned stock in eBay, that would make me an owner of eBay. Does that mean legally speaking, I could carry concealed?

fairfaxjim
05-14-2009, 5:07 PM
As an employee, you do not have a "place of business", but rather a "place of employment." As a business owner or partner, you have a "place of business." It is a fine line to split, but the wording in the PC clearly states place of business. Simply working there does not allow you to have a concealed weapon, even with the owner's permission. You are allowed to openly carry an loaded weapon with the owner's permission.

Glock22Fan
05-14-2009, 5:46 PM
As an employee, you do not have a "place of business", but rather a "place of employment." As a business owner or partner, you have a "place of business." It is a fine line to split, but the wording in the PC clearly states place of business. Simply working there does not allow you to have a concealed weapon, even with the owner's permission. You are allowed to openly carry an loaded weapon with the owner's permission.


Thank you, Jim. I assumed it was something like that. Pity our lawmakers don't talk English clearly enough. Mind you, putting "lawmakers" and "clear English" in the same sentence is probably an oxymoron.

For what constitutes an owner, Machtinger again:

"You are an owner if you have a 'proprietary, possessory or substantial' ownership in the business." He says substantial is not defined, but over 50% would certainly be adequate. He also defines proprietary and possessory. The business must be a fixed location - an owner-driven taxi cab or bounty hunter's truck does not count.

As I said, there are also a couple of references to precedent cases defining ownership.