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mountaindweller
05-12-2009, 10:09 PM
...45acp. Which is better in a tactical situation? Why? Not concerned with model of pistol....just the round. Just so you know I like a lot of pistols; Sig, HK, Kimber, but my faith in the Glock is unshakeable. So say the SHTF....which round would you put your faith in?

Adonlude
05-12-2009, 10:14 PM
SHTF, 9mm because I can carry much more ammo for the same weight and it will be more common if I run out and need to find more.

Stubby
05-12-2009, 10:20 PM
With modern hollowpoint ammo there is really no difference between a 9mm or .45. 9mm is cheaper which leads to more training and all things considered equal, the 9mm handgun will recoil less allowing faster follow-up shots to the target.

elmo
05-12-2009, 10:22 PM
9mm was a standard for many law enforcement...might still be for some. I'm finding .40S&W to be more common. 45 is a good powerful round but as stated above you can't carry as much in a magazine or on your person.

I have guns in both and like them both for their + and -. not really one better than the other.

aplinker
05-12-2009, 10:26 PM
I'd put my faith in god, my hopes on my training and I'd use whatever gun is on my person.

Caliber arguments are silly.

TheBundo
05-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I'd put my faith in god, my hopes on my training and I'd use whatever gun is on my person.

Caliber arguments are silly.

Bingo

Rob Roy
05-12-2009, 10:41 PM
I think in SHTF situation either .40 s&w(LE) or 9mm(Military) will be the easiest to find.

gumby
05-12-2009, 10:43 PM
+ Stubby

Sicarius
05-12-2009, 10:44 PM
.45 for me. The .45 will do more damage with one hit. Say I don't hit the body mass or they are wearing some sort of armor... The .45 will have a better chance to incapacitate the perp. I also have plenty of both so ammout of ammo isn't an issue for me.
Kevin

ghost
05-12-2009, 10:44 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:



when it comes down to it is whatever you can shoot better with.

ELEVENTH HOUR
05-12-2009, 10:48 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:



when it comes down to it is whatever you can shoot better with.
+1 Hear, Hear! :thumbsup:

Wompinblazer
05-12-2009, 10:50 PM
SHTF is a rough call between calibers. I believe my experience with my USP .45 will bring me through it, but the weight to ammo ratio leans me more toward a 9. Hence the reason I would love a bad***** 9.

According to Old West Tech (show on History)(I know sources suck) a .45 is the equivalent of getting hit in the chest with a 20lb sledge by a carnival "Strongman." Whereas a 9 (according to multiple LEO sources) is more likely to penetrate, and continue on through the body.

Basically, if you are confident in your weapon skills, and are sure you can deliver accurate "kill shots" then a 9 is in order. If you are not as confident and more of a "Hope and Prayer" type (no religious hate) then a .45 would be beneficial.

To note- I'm not a 100% kill shot, and I have never been tested in combat, or high stress situation. Beretta 92fs is easy as hell to shoot, where my HK is a little jumpy (no double tap).

paul0660
05-12-2009, 10:59 PM
Shtf might be very much like now........if you don't have it, you can't get it.

Dangerous1
05-12-2009, 11:01 PM
9mm because it penetrates at least like a .45, has good expansion with good JHP, you can carry more, have more rounds in a single mag, easier recoil to deal with for quicker follow up shots, etc.

.45 if it's not a SHTF situation and you think a few rounds is good enough.

Rob Roy
05-12-2009, 11:08 PM
Shtf might be very much like now........if you don't have it, you can't get it.
For this reason, better have common calibers covered through conversion barrels:43:

Sam
05-12-2009, 11:37 PM
If you are not as confident and more of a "Hope and Prayer" type (no religious hate) then a .45 would be beneficial.

To note- I'm not a 100% kill shot, and I have never been tested in combat, or high stress situation. Beretta 92fs is easy as hell to shoot, where my HK is a little jumpy (no double tap).

You make it sound like those guys who use the .45 rounds are just crossing their fingers and hoping for the best when they use it.

I use the .45 ACP round just because I'm a 1911 fan boy.

Rob Roy
05-13-2009, 12:18 AM
always a trade off, l prefer 9mm for handgun requirements for all the above stated reasons. One can look at history for some answers, look at the LA riots
etc.

I recently read a survivalist essay by a fellow that has been in Argentina for the last 25 years and he has been through what we all think about. He said the number one valuable item in an urban social / economic meltdown that led to all kinds of unsavory social relations is a handgun. A very dependable handgun capable of delivering lots of rounds before reloading. He was in a few unexpected urban firefights and his experience was not having to reload
at the wrong time makes a difference. Actually his highest recommendation was a high capacity mag select fire machine pistol. After a machine pistol something like sig, CZ, Beretta or HK in 9mm with many high cap mags and mucho ammo. If there is any resemblance of an economy/ society left you need concealabilty and you will be carrying it all the time. He did mention that in his situation rifles were not that useful as they were still trying to carry on a civilization so stepping into an elevator to get to work with your M1A Scout just isn't practical. Considering all home the invasions and express kidnappings he did say carbines and shotguns were great for around the home and of course in the car. Another point he drove home was that after the economy collapsed a quality handgun was very, very valuable for sale or barter. Then on the other hand I have spoken with veterans from Afganistan that did not like the 9mm at all as with 9mm fmj it has way too many failures but the .45 230 gr fmj works much better.
No advantage to 9mm in RPK, cause we are limited to 10 rounds:(

phamkl
05-13-2009, 12:26 AM
I think I'd go with a double stacked .45 ball. Maybe the double tap is tougher but rapid fire (with one second between shots) is perfectly doable in a 1911 for me.

If SHTF though I think, above any specific caliber, I'd like to have people I can count on.

BunnySlayer
05-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Being a died in the wool 45 guy I would choose the 45 ACP if for no other reason than it's what I practice with and train with the most. Additionaly if all I could find was ball ammo I have more faith in 45 ball than 9mm ball. Now having said that, given good hollow point ammo there's not much difference between the two. I certainly would not feel underarmed with a 9 and own several. Far more important is the individual behind the gun. I'd far rather face some untrained street urchin with a machine gun than someone like Jeff Cooper with a .22. In the end only the Coroner would be able to tell the difference I think.

phamkl
05-13-2009, 12:32 AM
If there is anarchy that bad, you'll either be dealing with the mags you have on hand, or taking them off of non-CA 'residents' or pre-ban full-cap mag owners or LEO.

JTROKS
05-13-2009, 7:51 AM
If it was just me I'd pick a 45acp or 40, but my wife stays in the house more than me so I'm tailoring my HD guns with the greatest consideration for my wife, so we got 143 rounds of 9mm on tap in case someone tries to invade and threaten the safety of our home.

vandal
05-13-2009, 8:09 AM
You can't separate the caliber from the platform. So 9mm all the way. To get decent capacity in a .45 you have to go with a really big gun, and that's not very versatile.

SCMA-1
05-13-2009, 8:27 AM
...45acp. Which is better in a tactical situation? Why? Not concerned with model of pistol....just the round. Just so you know I like a lot of pistols; Sig, HK, Kimber, but my faith in the Glock is unshakeable. So say the SHTF....which round would you put your faith in?

Doesn't really matter.........pistol is a backup weapon or for concealed carry only because it's too difficult to conceal/carry an M4. If the "SHTF", I would have an appropropriate rifle/carbine (NOT a de-nutted, bullet buttoned, fixed 10rd mag mall Ninja toy) as my primary and a pistol is just a backup weapon.

SCMA-1

HowardW56
05-13-2009, 8:39 AM
I'd use whatever gun is on my person.

Caliber arguments are silly.



A well placed 22 will do more than a poorly placed 45...

J-cat
05-13-2009, 9:10 AM
With modern hollowpoint ammo there is really no difference between a 9mm or .45. 9mm is cheaper which leads to more training and all things considered equal, the 9mm handgun will recoil less allowing faster follow-up shots to the target.

Not true.

There is an 80% difference in frontal area between the 9mm and the 45 (in expanded bullets). Yes, some 9mm expands larger that some 45, but if you match apples to apples (like SXT to SXT or HST to HST), the 45 always wins.

thefurball
05-13-2009, 9:17 AM
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

A hit between the eyes with a .22LR will do for more damage than a miss with a 50BMG.

GP3
05-13-2009, 9:24 AM
45 = most damage per single bullet.
9 = most shots fired per magazine.

Tillers_Rule
05-13-2009, 9:25 AM
SHTF, 9mm because I can carry much more ammo for the same weight and it will be more common if I run out and need to find more.

I think this goes along the same lines of thinking as our military. The .223 is round is much smaller that both it's predecessors (.308, .30-06), enabling more to be carried, as well as cheaper prices.

I'd agree as well, if I were limited to one gun and an equal weight of ammo, I'd got with the 9mm.

Vin496
05-13-2009, 9:29 AM
I always find the argument "9mm because you can find it everywhere" funny.

This is America where .45 is the king and has been for almost 100 years. If we where in the jungles of some African Country, then yes a 9mm, but in the good old USA.

45 is everywhere, has been for a long time and will be.

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 9:37 AM
I'd agree as well, if I were limited to one gun and an equal weight of ammo, I'd got with the 9mm.

Yep. If you're a good shot with either and could take down multiple targets with a single shot with either caliber.....which would you prefer, 10rds of .45 or 15+ of 9mm?

Yeah you get into other issues if there is body armor involved. But most modern body armor will stop pistol rds. up to .45 anyway at which point you're gonna hafta go for head shots regardless of caliber. And a 9mm JHP will do the required amount of brain damage to get the job done.

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 9:41 AM
If there is anarchy that bad, you'll either be dealing with the mags you have on hand, or taking them off of non-CA 'residents' or pre-ban full-cap mag owners or LEO.

If you're doing that.....might as well relieve them of their weapon and ammo too! :innocent:

Voo
05-13-2009, 9:44 AM
I've found from reading threads of a similar nature that responses will typically be one of the following..

45 is bigger..essentially meaning, bigger is better

40 is an answer to a question that was never asked as well as being snappy

9mm is small but you get a lot of chances to make small holes and it's easier to miss (I'm adding the 'miss' part :P). also ammo is readily plentiful (except at walmart)

9mm is as effective as larger calibers due to 'modern improvements in ballistics'

Shot placement is key (.22 caliber is usually cited)

handguns suck, get a rifle- rifle always trumps! its only .223 or of something similiar diameter. (I guess size isn't everything eh :thumbsup:)

what else did i miss?

Yes, I'm making a small mockery of this thread by pointing out they almost always repeat the same thing. But now that I've summarized what the responses will likely be, can we please lock the thread now?? Ok ok..i KIDDD I kiddd

btw, I like 9mm. It's the best round ever made. :eek:

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 9:52 AM
9mm is small but you get a lot of chances to make small holes and it's easier to miss (I'm adding the 'miss' part :P). also ammo is readily plentiful (except at walmart)

Yeah....I'm thnking of getting a .25 auto, cuz whenever I go by the counter at walmart all they have is shotgun ammo and a few boxes of .25 auto.

It doesn't matter which round, 9mm or .45, is better.....if you can't get either of them then niether of them will do you any good.

HowardW56
05-13-2009, 10:24 AM
This issue has been and will continue to be debated; there will never be a true consensus as to which caliber is the best...

The best caliber is the one you never have to use...

That said, there is no doubt that almost any caliber will do the job with proper shot placement and within range limitations of the caliber.

It is my opinion and recommendation to most shooters that you should use the gun and caliber that you are the most proficient with, but in a caliber not less than 9mm or .38 Special... If you can shoot a 45 well, by all means, use it... .357 magnum or Sig, 40 S&W, great; 41 Magnum, more than adequate, 10 MM, and 44 Magnum, you are tougher than I am, I don’t enjoy the abuse enough to train with these large calibers adequately…

Use what you are the most proficient with, if that is not available, use whatever is!

Legasat
05-13-2009, 10:48 AM
45 = most damage per single bullet.
9 = most shots fired per magazine.

Hmmm, in Kalifornia, you can only have 10 round mags. I only buy handguns with 10 round mags. So, equal number of shots per mag.

IF i had a choice, I'd have to go with .45, but would not feel ill-equipped if I had a 9mm.

Tillers_Rule
05-13-2009, 10:50 AM
I always find the argument "9mm because you can find it everywhere" funny.

This is America where .45 is the king and has been for almost 100 years. If we where in the jungles of some African Country, then yes a 9mm, but in the good old USA.

45 is everywhere, has been for a long time and will be.

That's odd, I haven't been able to find .45 on the shelves in over 5 months. I can pick up 9mm nearly every time I need it. Just this morning as a matter of fact!

The .45 that I have on order from Cabelas in scheduled to come in 7/15/09!!

I agree that .45 is a badass round, but I think 9mm is much more available.

Rob Roy
05-13-2009, 11:07 AM
If you have to move on foot a lot and carry other stuff, the heavier hadngun like .45 is not ideal. HD .45 is ideal. SHTF, I don't think so.

spyderco monkey
05-13-2009, 11:35 AM
I love my .45; its what I was raised on and have shot the most, by far, of all my calibers.

But, at 21grams per round, you add one pound of weight to your gear per 20 rounds of .45. If, post earthquake/zombies/global tinfoil shortage, your bugging out on foot, with at least a gallon of water + 10-30lbs of other supplies, .45 is going to be a real drag.

In any bug out scenario, I'm going for the 5.7x28mm, which is more than 2x lighter per cartridge than 9mm, and 3x lighter per cartridge than .45.

Custom loaded ammo puts a 28gr bullet at 2600 fps for 420ftlbs, is accurate beyond 100 yards, and has minimal recoil. 1000 rounds only weighs 15lbs and stores in a 8"x8"x8" cube, and a 50 round box fits easily in a pocket.

If that is too exotic/too expensive an option, .357 SIG seems the ideal runner up for SHTF caliber of choice. Slightly heavier than the 9mm, but way lighter than the .45, with advantages in range, penetration, and energy over either. Can also carry a .40 and 9mm barrel as well, to use any ammo you may find. For HD use the .45; when bugging out, switch to the 10mm upper with the .357 sig barel (or 9x25 dillon if your fighting the terminator lol)

Hopefully this all remains theoretical, cuz I for am enjoying my creature comforts. :thumbsup:

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 11:39 AM
In "I Am Legend" the zombies only came out in the dark.....so as long as only go out in the day or just carry one of those million candle power lights at night that's all you should need! LOL

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 11:41 AM
That's odd, I haven't been able to find .45 on the shelves in over 5 months. I can pick up 9mm nearly every time I need it. Just this morning as a matter of fact!

The .45 that I have on order from Cabelas in scheduled to come in 7/15/09!!

I agree that .45 is a badass round, but I think 9mm is much more available.

Where are you finding 9mm? I can't seem to find it anywhere accept in small overly priced quantities or fighting the crowds at the gunshow ammo table.

oghl888
05-13-2009, 12:14 PM
Which ever I get to faster. Power in handgun calibers are all pretty weak. The difference between a 9mm and 45ACP is not that significant in my humble opinion. I think all the energy spent on caliber selection can be (and should be) better used in getting better at hitting the target more efficiently.

dgey
05-13-2009, 12:32 PM
I personally like 45 acp, but it's all about shot placement. if you hit the ocular cavity, a 22 lr round will be just as effective.

Tillers_Rule
05-13-2009, 1:17 PM
Where are you finding 9mm? I can't seem to find it anywhere accept in small overly priced quantities or fighting the crowds at the gunshow ammo table.

So Cal Guns in Kearny Mesa routinely has it by the pallet. This morning I picked up two boxes at Wal Mart in Kearny Mesa.

punisheryayarea
05-13-2009, 1:24 PM
But for Califronia you can only have a 10rd mag so go with the 40 or 45

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 1:31 PM
So Cal Guns in Kearny Mesa routinely has it by the pallet. This morning I picked up two boxes at Wal Mart in Kearny Mesa.

Will hafta check out SoCal. Are you a 6am Wal Mart shopper? LOL

HowardW56
05-13-2009, 1:40 PM
Where are you finding 9mm? I can't seem to find it anywhere accept in small overly priced quantities or fighting the crowds at the gunshow ammo table.


Sharpshooter in Torrance has piles of Winchester SXT in both 9 & 45...

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 1:42 PM
Sharpshooter in Torrance has piles of Winchester SXT in both 9 & 45...

Too bad Torrance is a tad out of my way.

I plan on taking a defensive pistol course soon but they require factory new ammo only which kinda sucks because I cant seem to find any anywhere & I've already got a good supply of factory reloads on hand, which I've shot plenty of and not had a problem with.

elSquid
05-13-2009, 1:56 PM
But, at 21grams per round, you add one pound of weight to your gear per 20 rounds of .45. If, post earthquake/zombies/global tinfoil shortage, your bugging out on foot, with at least a gallon of water + 10-30lbs of other supplies, .45 is going to be a real drag.

Not if you plan ahead and have the appropriate load bearing gear (http://www.redwagons.com/mod29alcarwa.html)...

-- Michael

lioneaglegriffin
05-13-2009, 2:29 PM
If real anarchy occurs I'll take the questionable 17 rnd 9mm, unlikely the cops will be checking magazines if Long Beach gets nuked and you are in San Diego or Riverside. Or if a flu virus comes along and 50% of the populaton including cops is near dead. Best option keep both around if possible.

where are you going to get these hi-caps/standard caps? from dead LEO's and Soldiers? What if there aren't any? what if all you get it what you got?

Tillers_Rule
05-13-2009, 2:32 PM
Will hafta check out SoCal. Are you a 6am Wal Mart shopper? LOL


Not at all. I stopped by this morning on my way to work (about 8:30) to pick up a drink, decided to swing by the ammo section to see what they had. So I picked up the 9mm and 4 boxes of .40 for a friend of mine.

Splinter
05-13-2009, 2:35 PM
I will be carying a 10/22 and a few thousand rounds. A handgun is worthless when the end is near.

SgtDinosaur
05-13-2009, 2:38 PM
Noooooooooo........I'm having a flashback to Guns and Ammo 20 years ago.

Splinter
05-13-2009, 2:47 PM
Which ever I get to faster. Power in handgun calibers are all pretty weak. The difference between a 9mm and 45ACP is not that significant in my humble opinion. I think all the energy spent on caliber selection can be (and should be) better used in getting better at hitting the target more efficiently.

If I had 10 rounds of each, 45 would be my choice. It is FAR superior to 9mm. This has been beat to death. If there was no difference they wouldnt be making bigger rounds. If it wasnt for girly wrists and small hands leo would all be shooting 45. Now 40 vs 45 gets interesting. If 9mm was not much different from 45 why would 40 be so popular now?

bohoki
05-13-2009, 7:21 PM
i guess its that old question woudl you rather deal with 15 bleeding wounded or 8 dead guys and 7 of their healthy friends

spyderco monkey
05-13-2009, 8:32 PM
Not if you plan ahead and have the appropriate load bearing gear (http://www.redwagons.com/mod29alcarwa.html)...

-- Michael

Wow, that was awesome! I was totally expecting some mall ninja LBV set up, this is way more tactical lol

JDoe
05-13-2009, 8:33 PM
...45acp. Which is better in a tactical situation? Why? Not concerned with model of pistol....just the round. Just so you know I like a lot of pistols; Sig, HK, Kimber, but my faith in the Glock is unshakeable. So say the SHTF....which round would you put your faith in?

Considering just the round itself without regard for anything else means there is only one answer. Common self defense rounds in 9mm Luger and the .45 ACP have essentially equivalent performance.

Select the round and gun combo that you shoot accurately and reasonably fast.

I would be happy to put my faith in 9mm Luger or .45 ACP however would likely select 9mm Luger because I could carry more than 7 or 8 rounds in a magazine and 9mm Luger is cheaper to practice with.

hellraiser
05-13-2009, 8:39 PM
i guess its that old question woudl you rather deal with 15 bleeding wounded or 8 dead guys and 7 of their healthy friends

thats a good one...
with the ca. 10 rnd limit i got to go with 45....

mountaindweller
05-13-2009, 8:41 PM
Wow...thanks for all the input.

Mayhem
05-13-2009, 8:57 PM
Oh come on 9mm is anemic, ask the FBI agents in the Miami shooting ... Oh wait you Can't because THEY'RE DEAD!

Mag cap in California ... No longer an issue because you're limited to 10 rounds.

better off .40S&W .45 ACP or 10mm in auto unless you can't handle the little extra recoil (I never noticed but then again .500 S&W mag doesn't bother me) or size is an issue, 9mm is best reserved to CCW in a speedo with .380 and .25

the only other reason I could think of why going with a 9mm is fit. If the gun fits you better your going to shoot it better, but most staggered magazines are the same for 9mm and .40 and .45 in a single stack mags feels smaller (at least to me).

Mister BLASTEE
05-13-2009, 8:57 PM
9mm. Shot placement is key!
Also the ability to carry more rounds.

Mayhem
05-13-2009, 9:05 PM
9mm. Shot placement is key!
Also the ability to carry more rounds.

???? your capped at 10 that puts 9mm and .40 in the same boat. and 45 as a close second (depending on the gun some forty fives can also hit the 10 round cap).

Me personally spray and pray is not a method I subscribe to. I'd rather go with a 6 rounds in a wheal gun and have the power to stop any thing threating me on the first shot then have 15 17 or 20 rounds and have to give it lead poisoning before it stops.

shot placement is a mute point when it comes to the gun because you can can't outshoot the gun if the gun is of good quality like a Sig H&K Beretta and so on. I've put allot of 9mm and .45 acp shooters to shame with my 40 and 45 when I outshot them. It's not the gun ... its them I was just a better shot. If you can't place shots well then You either suck or you have a major fit issue or you just purchased a really crappy gun. RECOIL DOES NOT EFFECT ACCURACY UNLESS IT HURTS REALLY BAD. I can shoot .500 S&W .460 S&W and .454 Cassul just as well as I can shoot 9mm and .22lr. The only thing recoil effects is recovery time .. ie How long it takes to accurately aim and take another shot after you have already taken a shot.

One of the FBI agents in the Miami shoot out had good shot placement, but the perp still killed him before himself dieing. had he shot the perp on the emergency room table the perp woulda still died. You wouldn't hunt elephant with a .223 don't rely on shot placement alone. Without shot placement the power of cartridge won't matter, even if you hit the bad guy with a .500 but with good shot placement the power of the cartridge will come in to play.

For personal defense.40 is king in auto. You get near 9mm capacity (same cap in calif) with near .45 and 10mm power.

.45 and 10mm are the jack of all trade guns. they do everything well.

For CCW Home defense and Duty carry I prefer my sig p229 (12 rnd) 40S&W I would still perfer it if limited to 10.

For everything else I prefer my sig p220st in .45 specially like when hunting in California.

The only thing I wish I could have in an auto is a sig p220 in 10mm guess I'll have to settle with a kimber.

However when selecting a gun one should go with Fit and Comfort before anything else becuase if you can't hit your target it's not going to matter how potent your round is because you still missed.

pleeds
05-13-2009, 9:09 PM
I have both calibers, Glock 19, Glock 26 and a Glock 30sf.I also have plenty of ammo for both calibers. I'm more accurate with the .45 and if I ever have to use in self defense I prefer the heavier/larger bullet of the .45. Reacquiring the target after each shot is no problem with the .45 as the recoil is more of a push-back than a snap-up. I don't mind giving up a few rounds for the knock-down power of the .45. Just my two cents worth.

Mayhem
05-13-2009, 9:40 PM
I have both calibers, Glock 19, Glock 26 and a Glock 30sf.I also have plenty of ammo for both calibers. I'm more accurate with the .45 and if I ever have to use in self defense I prefer the heavier/larger bullet of the .45. Reacquiring the target after each shot is no problem with the .45 as the recoil is more of a push-back than a snap-up. I don't mind giving up a few rounds for the knock-down power of the .45. Just my two cents worth.


Exactly!

Me I really don't notice a change in recovery time until I get to a magnum revolver or magnum single shot. and even then its not much until you get to the supermags like the .454 .460 and .500 ... at least to me.

First time I shot the .500 the gun dealer was trying to tell me how powerful the recoil was and how careful i had to be. After about 2 boxes of ammo (20 rnds each and god where they expensive) I told the dealer "Give me a break this is just like the .454." the only thing the supermags do to me is make the web of my hand between the thumb and forefinger a little tender the next day.

lioneaglegriffin
05-13-2009, 10:17 PM
the wise survivalist would be prepared and have preban mags and rebuild kits.


check this out, barring a nuke or virus this is where America is going.
http://www.rapidtrends.com/surving-argentinas-economic-collapse-part-1-3/



read the article

dont have either so im screwed. since i'm personally stuck with 10 rounds i choose .45 it has less reciol than .40 but more power than 9mm

oghl888
05-13-2009, 10:37 PM
For what it's worth, the military in most countries don't think 9mm is anemic. The "sharp shooter" in the FBI team in the Miami shooting lost his glasses and can't see well enough.

If you are going to hit a solid block of steel in a car travelling 100 mph, it doesn't matter if you are in a 5 star rated or a 1 star rated vehicle. If you can hit the target efficiently and accurately, it doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or a 45ACP. I would choose a .308 over a 9mm any day, but there is little between the 9mm and the 45ACP.

cryptkeeper
05-13-2009, 10:44 PM
I hear this a lot. The 9mm is anemic? Let's go to an outdoor range, walk 15 yards down range and let me put on 9mm round in your chest and then tell me how anemic it feels. I'll even pay for the 9mm. Everyone is reading into the stories of the extraordinary where a guy hopped on meth withstood 15 rounds of 9mm. They fail to take into consideration the fact that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people have been killed just nicely with 9mm. Don't worry about the caliber. Worry about becoming a good shot. Worry about having enough spare ammo. Worry about the fact that if you get taken down, a relative or friend might have to defend you and some of those "better" calibers might be too much for them, especially if they've never shot before. I've never heard anyone complain about the recoil of the 9mm.

Mayhem
05-13-2009, 11:05 PM
I hear this a lot. The 9mm is anemic? Let's go to an outdoor range, walk 15 yards down range and let me put on 9mm round in your chest and then tell me how anemic it feels. I'll even pay for the 9mm. Everyone is reading into the stories of the extraordinary where a guy hopped on meth withstood 15 rounds of 9mm. They fail to take into consideration the fact that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people have been killed just nicely with 9mm. Don't worry about the caliber. Worry about becoming a good shot. Worry about having enough spare ammo. Worry about the fact that if you get taken down, a relative or friend might have to defend you and some of those "better" calibers might be too much for them, especially if they've never shot before. I've never heard anyone complain about the recoil of the 9mm.

Killing a perp doesn't do you much good when he dies 3 days later after beating you to death with your own gun then giving it to you as a suppository.

I've carried both the m1911a1 and the m9 in the army I'll take the one with the bigger bullets. THE U.S. Took the 9mm due to nato standards and chose the Beretta for the cost/performance ratio. Allot of units still use .45acp. The US also chose the 5.56mm for the m16 a round most people wouldn't use on a deer and is limited to coyotes or smaller game.

Rob Roy
05-13-2009, 11:18 PM
If 9mm were good enough, FBI wouldn't look for a different round.

jimrod
05-14-2009, 12:01 AM
The .45 makes a bigger hole than the 9mm - 18% bigger. The Fed HST .45 ACP expands to 1.02" - Now that's a big mutha hole. The .45 bullet is up to 115 gr heavier than a 9 mm - double the weight of a std 9mm 115 gr bullet. You do the math. :thumbsup:

11Z50
05-14-2009, 12:13 AM
Simple for me. If I can only have 10 rounds, I want the biggest 10 rounds I can get in a carry piece, like the M&P 45. If I happen to be able to use full-caps in the same size weapon, I'll choose the large-capacity 9mm, like my Beretta Vertec.

In a compact, it's 9mm all the way, like my M&P Compact 9. I have a G36, but I prefer the Compact 9.

I see the .40 as a silly millimeter larger than the nine, but not a big-bore like the trusty 45 ACP. The cops can have it.

Currently, I see the 9mm as a much more practical choice than any other caliber for a shooter for many reasons. I advise those who ask for my opinion to buy a 9mm that fits their hand, buy many rounds, and be happy.

SCMA-1
05-14-2009, 8:01 AM
For those who continue to perpetuate the "knockdown power" myth, please review this clip:

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SCMA-1
05-14-2009, 8:26 AM
Here is an exerpt posted in a forum from one of Gabriel Suarez's books. In case you don't know who Gabe Suarez is; google it.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=240753

There are far too many myths being perpetrated by the "mall ninja" crowd.

SCMA-1

Nightmare
05-14-2009, 12:51 PM
Firstoff, define a "tactical" situation, as this term is getting tossed around more often than we see obese people squeezing into spandex these days.
The coveted caliber discussion. It exists everywhere. Even in Africa Hunting, where the .375 cannot possibly kill a elephant as dead as a .460 Weatherby with a correctly placed bullet.
The misnomer about the 9mm being wimpy, lacking stopping power, not being able to kill mosquitoes, giving low income rates, etc., usually comes back from the fact that the military is stuck with FMJ ammunition and that round itself, indeed, does lack stopping power. Modern ammo, like any law abiding citizen can purchase, actually does have stopping power relative to a handgun. Keep in mind gents, it is a handgun. It's a relatively low velocity, low momentum projectile and it's not going to make people do backflips like in the movies and whatnot. Regardless, it's going to hurt and no one like's being shot. Just putting things in perspective.
The .45 is wonderful, as is the 9mm, and one should choose whichever one is comfortable for use. If there's a wife and family involved, take that into consideration as well. Hell, take both in a so called "SHTF" situation.
In regards to a "SHTF" situation...which in my professional opinion won't happen even though there seems to be this mass hysteria that the sky's going to fall, the water's going to dry up and Rosie O'Donnell's going to eat the rest of the food and put all the reserves into a downfall, I would prefer a rifle as said before, most likely a FN-FAL and a handgun as back-up, as said earlier.
By the way, I am not more tactical than thou art, I hate tactical firearms and tactical discussions. That is my disclaimer, just been there and done that

Rob Roy
05-14-2009, 1:19 PM
If I were able to have 33 round mags, I would happily go with 9mm without even thinking twice. Being restricted to 10 rounds changes things drastically.

Mayhem
05-14-2009, 1:22 PM
If I were able to have 33 round mags, I would happily go with 9mm without even thinking twice. Being restricted to 10 rounds changes things drastically.

I'd rather have a .40 .45 or 10mm with a 33 round mag :)

Course I would rather have an infantry squad (Ranger) with a full battle load out to personally protect me and do my bidding to. :)

Rob Roy
05-14-2009, 1:23 PM
Also, no caliber would help you if you lack the skills. With no skill, you wouldn't magically become a marksman just by using .45 I put skills beyond caliber. After you have skills, then you choose a caliber for a particular purpose.

Rob Roy
05-14-2009, 1:27 PM
I'd rather have a .40 .45 or 10mm with a 33 round mag :)

Course I would rather have an infantry squad (Ranger) with a full battle load out to personally protect me and do my bidding to. :)
33 rounds of .45 is heavy to move around with for long periods of time. .40 is better, but I doubt there is 33 rounder for it.

mountaindweller
05-14-2009, 2:32 PM
I have both calibers, Glock 19, Glock 26 and a Glock 30sf.I also have plenty of ammo for both calibers. I'm more accurate with the .45 and if I ever have to use in self defense I prefer the heavier/larger bullet of the .45. Reacquiring the target after each shot is no problem with the .45 as the recoil is more of a push-back than a snap-up. I don't mind giving up a few rounds for the knock-down power of the .45. Just my two cents worth.

Hey I noticed that with the Glock 21 as well.....I shot it more accurate than the the 17.....but I was thinking keep training with the 17 because of pre-ban 17rder's. And the weight of the 9mm is less.. but I guess that it comes down to a subjective decision.....and like many others have said on this thread, it's about shot placement.

mountaindweller
05-14-2009, 2:50 PM
Here is an exerpt posted in a forum from one of Gabriel Suarez's books. In case you don't know who Gabe Suarez is; google it.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=240753

There are far too many myths being perpetrated by the "mall ninja" crowd.

SCMA-1

Wow....that is exactly what I was looking for, thank you.

Mayhem
05-14-2009, 3:13 PM
33 rounds of .45 is heavy to move around with for long periods of time. .40 is better, but I doubt there is 33 rounder for it.

The tommy gun had both a high cap mag and a drum magazine. So did the old m3 grease gun (god that was fun to shoot).

Theres also the mp5 and UMP that come in 9mm .40 10mm and .45 however I've only fired the mp5 in 9mm.

But we are talking about hand guns for self defense, or which is a better bullet?

.40 S&W .45 ACP .45 super and 10mm are better then 9mm as a bullet. In other words if I could only have 1 round in a single action gun single shot break action gun I would take .45 super .45 acp 10mm and .40 S&W over 9mm.

With the Hand gun its going to lean more towards the conditions you need to carry it under and the fit of the gun.

I can change magazines in less then a second and with speed loaders I'm almost just as fast with a revolver so to me in a my honest and personal opinion loosing 2 or 3 rounds in a mag is not going to be much of an issue. and In California your pretty much stuck at 5 to 10 rounds.

I'm not going to try and CCW my p220st in a speedo at the beach. Then again I'm not going to Open or Duty carry a little .25acp raven either.

The biggest thing 9mm had going for it was capacity, Smaller frame gun and less recoil then the .45 and 10mm for more sensitive people. The .40 pretty much ended that. The 10 round mag cap almost ends the usefulness of the 9mm and puts somewhat of a dent in .40 S&W. However ultra compact's still show there is still some good use for a 9mm as do guns with a straight stacked magazine for fit in smaller hands.

Lets put it this way these are the Pro's for the 9mm

Capacity - more ammo for the same space and weight as bigger bullets. This is a mute point in California for civilian use.

Fits in smaller guns then most of the bigger cartridges which effects Conceal ability and Fit. Fit and use should always be your first considerations when choosing a firearm.

target ammo tends to be cheaper then the bigger cartridges.

Less perceived recoil for more sensitive persons.

What do the bigger cartridges offer ... bigger, heavier, harder hitting bullets. Theirs not much argument in how potent a .185 grn JHP .45 doing 1300 fps for 694 ft lbs or a .230 grn JHP .45 doing 1100 FPS for 618 ft lbs is compared to a 115 grn JHP 9mm doing 1400 fps for 500 gt lbs or 147 grn JHP 9mm doing 1175 fps for 451 ft lbs.

as far as accuracy goes thats more on the shooter then anything else. Most high quality firearms are far more accurate then their shooters regardless of caliber. This is where fit is going to come in to play with a quality fire arm.

There is very little or no accuracy differences between most firearms in most calibers at 75 feet. and with handguns the only thing a longer barrel does for you is increase your site radius which can improve accuracy for the shooter but this because of the Distance between the rear and front sites (longer is better) then how big the bullet is compared to the length of the barrel or how far down the barrel the bullet has to travel as long as the barrel meats the minimum specs for the bullet (Nearly all modern firearms do).



I see allot of people throw their experts around. while most of those experts have good studies and training, Very few have true real world experience as in most of them have never truly been "in the *****" so to speak. I can probably come up with an "Expert" that can tell you a pink gun is better and more lethal then a black one.

Also military combat conditions and environment are going to be allot different then they will be for normal self defense involving civilians and law enforcement. First of all offense is pretty much the realm of the armed force3s, They are the only ones charged with actually "going for the kill". The only thing in the civilian and Law enforcement communities close to that is going to be Special LEO units like SWAT (And maybe the BATFE).

If the military accidentally mows over a few dozen civilians that got in the way it tends to be acceptable losses and business as usual. at worse its a PR nightmare. If a Civilian or LEO mows over a few innocent civilians it's going to be Hell and the civilian or LEO is going have to pay it. Every shot you take in a self defense situation is a mistake waiting to happen. I would rather "get'r done" with fewer shots then more.

However as most of us on these boards have pointed out power and capacity are worthless if you can't hit your target and power and capacity are no substitute for accuracy. Accuracy is entirely on you as the shooter. So practice practice and when your to tired to practice practice even more. If you can afford it get trained. Go to ranges that have reactive targets. You may even get lucky and find a house of horrors you can use.

Be nice if some code monkey can produce a FPS that can accurately portray ballistics, real world scenarios and Shoot no Shoot scenarios.

Rob Roy
05-14-2009, 3:28 PM
IMO, recoil management problems are due to the lack of practice and skill. This all goes away once a shooter has a proper grip and stance.
You cannot substitute the skill with the caliber.

Rob Roy
05-14-2009, 3:35 PM
There is one more issue with 9mm. People usually would practice with regular ammo and keep hot ammo for SD/HD, which is a problem, because recoil is higher with the latter and there is not enough practice with it to use it efficiently.

lioneaglegriffin
05-14-2009, 5:20 PM
For those who continue to perpetuate the "knockdown power" myth, please review this clip:

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its not knockdown power that matters for big bore fan's but it is penetration that turns cover into concealment and the lethality of the round because its makes a bigger hole. The crux is how long it takes for someone to become incapacitated from shock and blood loss. is a .22 more likely to do this in a short amount of time or a .50? Obviously the bigger caliber the bigger the hole. But 9mm can (FMJ's) penetrate more than the larger calibers and overpenetration can become a problem there. And because we are in CA the only reason to have a small caliber is for CC/small hands or for less recoil or cost of ammo.

aplinker
05-14-2009, 6:14 PM
Since this has turned into another silly caliber argument...

The whole military issue with calibers and overpenetration is due to the forced use of FMJ... it's all the military can use. We're not limited to FMJ. The issue becomes moot when we can use modern HPs. The differences are marginal.

SCMA-1
05-14-2009, 6:24 PM
Since this has turned into another silly caliber argument...

The whole military issue with calibers and overpenetration is due to the forced use of FMJ... it's all the military can use. We're not limited to FMJ. The issue becomes moot when we can use modern HPs. The differences are marginal.

That pretty much sums it up.

SCMA-1

Mayhem
05-14-2009, 9:20 PM
these always degrade down to a silly caliber argument. I need to stop reading them and responding.

whats better is always going to depend on application any way.

I'm not taking a 9mm out with me when I go hunting. I prefer to take my sig p220st .45 with me loaded with some very hot rounds +p or Super (Rounds I probably wouldn't use for self defense against people).

For Duty carry I prefer my sig p229 .40 (12 rnd)

For CCW I prefer to carry my p229 .40 a p239 .40 or p232 .380

If I could find a nice 9mm in between the size of the p239 and p232 it would be in their as well. I'de really like to see a 9mm in the size of a .380 that can handle 8 to 10 rounds. closest thing to it is the sig 239 and glock 26.

If I need to stash a handgun in my speedo at the beach I'de probably go with a .22lr or .25 acp.

If I wanted a hand gun for big Alaskan bears I would pass on everything in an auto and go with a .460 or .500 magnum or use a HD shotgun loaded with rifled slugs.

Again this all has to do with application.

One point is if you can have a high cap 9mm is when you CCW you typically only take the gun and your concealment holster and thats it. This is place it would be nice to have a little extra ammo and it's the one place you probably wont.

oghl888
05-14-2009, 11:09 PM
these always degrade down to a silly caliber argument. I need to stop reading them and responding.

If I need to stash a handgun in my speedo at the beach I'de probably go with a .22lr or .25 acp.
.


If you need a gun in your speedo, you probably shouldn't be at that beach :)

BunnySlayer
05-15-2009, 12:28 AM
If I wore a speedo to the beach i'd need a gun. Someone would certainly try and kill the aquatic sasquatch.

BunnySlayer
05-15-2009, 12:37 AM
Oh good grief! Who really cares? Jeff Coopers first rule of a gunfight....have a gun. 9mm v 45 blah blah blah. Apples vs Oranges. There's a lot of dead guys that will heartily vouch for either one.

Mayhem
05-15-2009, 11:21 AM
If you need a gun in your speedo, you probably shouldn't be at that beach :)

Captain Ahab and his damn whalers.

Seal Hunters with there clubs.

Then theres the Big foot and missing link hunters.

And I get really annoyed when those PETA dopes keep trying to push me out to sea.

I'm not Harry Joe Salty Fliper or Mobey so leave the me heck alone.

hybridatsun350
05-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Who purposely shoots themselves in the chest with a .44 magnum! :eek:

aplinker
05-15-2009, 4:57 PM
Who purposely shoots themselves in the chest with a .44 magnum! :eek:

that body armor manufacturer dude shoots himself regularly with everything.

Getting shot with serious armor is like a pat on the back.

SCMA-1
05-15-2009, 6:44 PM
Who purposely shoots themselves in the chest with a .44 magnum! :eek:

What's even more nuts is asking Richard Davis to shoot one's self with a FAL.............twice!:eek: That's confidence.:thumbsup:

J_Rock
05-16-2009, 2:32 AM
A wise man once said:

"We can control a lot of things- but the one thing that we exercise absolutely no control over is another human's reaction to being shot.
That is unique, and often more a matter of circumstance than ballistics.
We (all of us) spend waaay too much time worrying about bullet weight, muzzle velocity, caliber and configuration instead of the terminal resting place of that projectile."

supersonic
05-16-2009, 2:51 AM
I'd put my faith in god, my hopes on my training and I'd use whatever gun is on my person.

Caliber arguments are silly.

Very true. But if S DID ever HTF, I would feel most comfortable with my 10MM. ( but hey, that's just me.)

saki302
05-16-2009, 4:52 AM
Keep in mind many of us older folks (relatively older, that is) have legal hi-caps bought in the 90's. That does make a big difference in the 9mm/.40 calibers.

10mm is a neat hunting round, but probably overkill for defense the same way .41 mag and .44 mag are. It also creates supply challenges. If I owned a Glock 20, I'd definitely buy a spare .45 upper for it (lone wolf dist. can take care of that for you).

The prime benefit of 9mm and .45 (and even .40 to a lesser extent) is availability. Any gun store would have these in stock (besides post obama freak-out time).

-Dave