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View Full Version : Domestic Violence Offender Denied Transfer NOW WHAT?


cdebari
05-12-2009, 5:11 PM
Done!

Eroland7
05-12-2009, 5:18 PM
Your father should schedule a court date to attempt to get the domestic violence charge removed from his record or downgraded to a less serious non-domestic violence related charge. Especially since it was 15 years ago. This is a very common hearing, and why not, it cant hurt. The worst taht could happen is that his motion is denied...

lorax3
05-12-2009, 5:49 PM
If the sale was a PPT then the FFL will return the gun to the original owner. If your father gets the charge taken care of he can start another DROS.

The only money you will not get back is the 35$ PPT fee. Unless the dealer refunds you 10$ out of that 35$, since 25$ is for the DROS and 10$ goes to the dealer.

cdebari
05-12-2009, 6:12 PM
Thanks guys.
It would suck to be out the funds for the gun.

kermit315
05-12-2009, 6:17 PM
So my father just bought a HK USP off a buddy of mine, and today was his pick up.
He went in and was denied (he had a domestic violence misdemeanor charge in 1994, 15 YEARS AGO). He recently purchased another firearm from a store with no problem.
My question is does anyone know if this Domestic Violence Offender gun ban is for life?
What will happen to the gun now? $700 down the drain? Can it be returned to the original owner?
Is there some loop hole with this?
Why would a rifle pass and not a handgun?

my question would be how did he buy another gun from a store with no problems, then have the PPT denied?

tyrist
05-12-2009, 6:19 PM
Your father should immediately dispose of the gun he has because he is a prohibited possessor.

D53
05-12-2009, 6:22 PM
Sorry to say I have no clue on this topic, but just want to say good luck to your pops on the situation, hopefully he will be able to eventually pick up the gun.

CHS
05-12-2009, 6:50 PM
If the sale was a PPT then the FFL will return the gun to the original owner.


Prohibited person or not, when you buy a gun it's yours. While the FFL cannot release it to you, they also can't just give it back to the original owner.

Basically, the firearm is in limbo at that point. The FFL is just holding it for you while you figure out what can be done.

MKE
05-12-2009, 6:57 PM
Have one of your father's close friend who has an Handgun Safety Certificate take custody of the gun until he can have the misdemeanor expunged. That, or have the FFL dealer hold it...though he'll probably end up paying a monthly holding fee.

lorax3
05-12-2009, 7:03 PM
Prohibited person or not, when you buy a gun it's yours. While the FFL cannot release it to you, they also can't just give it back to the original owner.

I was under the impression that if you fail the NICS than the PPT was essentially null and void. At which point the FFL would need to return the firearm back to the seller, or would hold it until the buyer could pass.

Is that incorrect?

cdebari
05-12-2009, 7:05 PM
Yeah why in the world would they release an AR lower and not let a PPT go through.
Yeah he's gonna get the paper work for the expungement tomorrow.
When he asked the gun store: "whats going to happen to the gun does the original owner get it?" they replied "Maybe they are gonna convict you" (in a very serious tone)

Riodog
05-12-2009, 7:39 PM
Read the fricken post! Cuz the ppt was as handgun->that can be concealed. DAH! The rifle or shotgun just gets blown thru the process.
Rio

anthonyca
05-12-2009, 8:17 PM
Yeah why in the world would they release an AR lower and not let a PPT go through.
Yeah he's gonna get the paper work for the expungement tomorrow.
When he asked the gun store: "whats going to happen to the gun does the original owner get it?" they replied "Maybe they are gonna convict you" (in a very serious tone)

Expungement in Cali no longer meets the definition of "expungement" according to the BATFE because they dont truly expunge your record. He lost his constitutional rights forever due to an ex post facto law. Does not matter if it was just a "ticket" in 1934 with NO jail time he is $$%#@$. Don't worry there is thousands of pages of case law and there is not much chance of getting anywhere. Arnie has to pardon you. That is not going to happen.

People say "I am not a wife beater" so they think this will not affect them. The stigma of domestic violence has made people federal felons for spanking or threatening or attempting to spank their kids. Even disorderly conduct pleas have been used to convict people federally when the person being arrested was being loud and that was considered threating to the victim even if the accused never said anything threatening. This is the prelude to the new way to ban people since outright bans will no longer work.

I predict in the future due the the great work that calguns and SAF are doing they will only have these types of laws. Some day it will be, you were picked up for a bar fight when you where in the ARMY and 21 now a new federal law can ban you 25 years later. You are a member of some fringe group with some idiot that spouts off about the government and there you go.

Don't think it can happen? Look at the restraining order situation. You don't even have to be notified of a restraining order against you or the implications and you can end up with 10 years.

http://lasc.org/court_managed_prog/LPOR/SELECTED_FEDERAL_LAWS.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/domestic/112807mcdv_brochure.pdf

anthonyca
05-12-2009, 8:25 PM
So my father just bought a HK USP off a buddy of mine, and today was his pick up.
He went in and was denied (he had a domestic violence misdemeanor charge in 1994, 15 YEARS AGO). He recently purchased another firearm from a store with no problem.
My question is does anyone know if this Domestic Violence Offender gun ban is for life?
What will happen to the gun now? $700 down the drain? Can it be returned to the original owner?
Is there some loop hole with this?
Why would a rifle pass and not a handgun?

What was the charge? Who was the relationship to the victim? What was the outcome?

MP301
05-12-2009, 10:03 PM
Lutenburg screwed things up. Its a life ban on possesing or controlling firearms or ammo for life. It comes with a $250k fine and 10 years in prison. FOR A MISDEMEANOR DV! FOR LIFE! This law has to go and hope it will. It is overly excessive. Read these two links....

http://www.gunlawnews.org/lautenberg.html

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0597d.asp

andrewj
05-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Your father should immediately dispose of the gun he has because he is a prohibited possessor.

^^ This is possible. OP, keep that in mind.

Someone I know, who has committed domestic violence in his past, has been prohibitied from owning or having access guns/ammo for 10 years.

Quiet
05-13-2009, 2:09 AM
Prohibited person or not, when you buy a gun it's yours. While the FFL cannot release it to you, they also can't just give it back to the original owner.

Basically, the firearm is in limbo at that point. The FFL is just holding it for you while you figure out what can be done.

Penal Code 12082
(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 7:44 AM
"If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. "

Where in the law does it say the seller hasta return the buyers money though?

megavolt121
05-13-2009, 7:56 AM
Contact the FFL, your father, and the seller and ask if the pistol can be transferred to you. Once you father figures out this whole fiascal, you can perform an interfamilial transfer.

This prevents the gun from going back to the seller as the seller doesn't "have" to legally return the money to your father, unless some form of a contract was signed between your father and the seller.

SgtDinosaur
05-13-2009, 8:31 AM
I find the original post a little confusing. Did he get convicted? I was charged with DV in 1996 (which by then was a felony thanks to OJ), but the charges were dropped by the DA. I have never had any problems buying firearms since then.

By the way, nobody was hurt in my incident, although things got pretty loud and I comitted violence on a door, which I replaced the next day.

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 8:48 AM
By the way, nobody was hurt in my incident, although things got pretty loud and I comitted violence on a door, which I replaced the next day.

DV = door violence? LOL

Something must be done.....think about all the innocent doors! :eek:

Publius
05-13-2009, 10:08 AM
Where in the law does it say the seller hasta return the buyers money though?

If the seller doesn't provide the gun, he hasn't provided anything for the money, and he has no justification for keeping it. If the seller refuses to return the money, the buyer could take the seller to small claims court, claiming unjust enrichment etc.

CHS
05-13-2009, 11:24 AM
If the seller doesn't provide the gun, he hasn't provided anything for the money, and he has no justification for keeping it. If the seller refuses to return the money, the buyer could take the seller to small claims court, claiming unjust enrichment etc.

I call BS. The seller SHOULD return the money, as that is the honorable thing to do (minus a "re-stocking" fee, AKA idiot fee). But legally, why should they be forced to? They sold a product to a person, and went to a gun store to complete the transaction. Once the gun was transferred to the buyer, the seller's job is complete. If the buyer finds out 10 days later that he can't take possession of the gun, that's between him and the state, not between him and the seller. The seller fulfilled *ALL* of his obligations once he and the buyer shook hands and left the gun store.

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However, it is pretty well known that federal law makes anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence charge a prohibited person.

When you buy a gun it's RIGHT THERE on the 4473, question 11.i:

"Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"

There are only a very few narrow exceptions to 11.i which are listed in the instruction area of the 4473.

If you've ever been convicted of a domestic violence charge, why on earth would you answer "no" to that question?

donstarr
05-13-2009, 11:51 AM
However, it is pretty well known that federal law makes anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence charge a prohibited person.

When you buy a gun it's RIGHT THERE on the 4473, question 11.i:

"Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"

There are only a very few narrow exceptions to 11.i which are listed in the instruction area of the 4473.

If you've ever been convicted of a domestic violence charge, why on earth would you answer "no" to that question?

Or, why would you not immediately put down the pen and halt the transaction upon reading question 12(i), reading the paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 before the signature line, and not finding yourself covered by "Important Notice 6, Exception 1"?

Publius
05-14-2009, 8:37 AM
I call BS. The seller SHOULD return the money, as that is the honorable thing to do (minus a "re-stocking" fee, AKA idiot fee). But legally, why should they be forced to? They sold a product to a person, and went to a gun store to complete the transaction. Once the gun was transferred to the buyer, the seller's job is complete. If the buyer finds out 10 days later that he can't take possession of the gun, that's between him and the state, not between him and the seller. The seller fulfilled *ALL* of his obligations once he and the buyer shook hands and left the gun store.


The agreement was for seller to provide the buyer a gun and the buyer to provide the seller a certain amount of money. If the sale doesn't go through, the dealer has to return the firearm to the seller. The seller gets the firearm back, which makes it not just between the buyer and the state. If the seller winds up with both the money and the gun, he has provided no value to the buyer and has been unjustly enriched. He has what he started with plus all of the buyer's money. The buyer will be able to recover something. Though if the seller can show some damages, the buyer might not be able to recover 100% of what he paid. A restocking fee is a form of liquidated damages (damages agreed to in advance for the sake of convenience and to eliminate uncertainty for both parties), and would have to be part of the original agreement.

Casual Observer
05-14-2009, 11:15 AM
Or, why would you not immediately put down the pen and halt the transaction upon reading question 12(i), reading the paragraph at the bottom of Page 1 before the signature line, and not finding yourself covered by "Important Notice 6, Exception 1"?

Which brings up another point. If the BATFE wants to make an example, they can prosecute the OP's dad for knowingly giving a false answer on the 4473.

I don't have it in front of me, but that's at least a Federal felony and probably violates one or two state laws as well.