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View Full Version : Can someone please explain the "Gun Show Loophole"?


viras
05-12-2009, 3:38 PM
Hey Guys, I was reading this article, and I wanted to know how this is possible... What loophole are they speaking of?


Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns
Omar Samaha, Whose Sister Was Killed at VTech, Found Out How Simple It Is to Buy a Gun
(http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1)

I just don't understand how this works...

So is the following statement true? If I went to Virginia, and wanted to buy a Colt AR-15, I could walk up to any gun show and shell out some cash to any willing vendor, and take it home with me that day? No DROS, no background check, no 10 day wait, nothing? Does this "loophole" only apply to "used" guns, or would I be getting a brand new Colt lower?

This question is purely for educational purposes.

Eroland7
05-12-2009, 3:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the "gun show loophole" does not exist anymore...

badicedog
05-12-2009, 3:45 PM
OMG, first of all stop calling it a 'loophole'. Is buying C&R rifles a 'loophole'? In free states, gun owners can sell their firearms to other gun owners without the 'FEDs' permission. Im sure other more experienced calgunner's will chime in shortly.

viras
05-12-2009, 3:46 PM
The article is from April 9th 2009... pretty recent... it seems like this is only possible in Virginia? It's all so confusing...

MODS - please feel free to move this thread if it's in the wrong forum - I didn't know where else to post this question.

viras
05-12-2009, 3:47 PM
OMG, first of all stop calling it a 'loophole'. Is buying C&R rifles a 'loophole'? In free states, gun owners can sell their firearms to other gun owners without the 'FEDs' permission. Im sure other more experienced calgunner's will chime in shortly.

Is a Colt AR-15 considered C&R?

What about the Glock Handgun he supposedly purchased? Is that C&R?

The reason I have it in quotes is because that's how the article references it. I know the term "Gun Show Loophole" is offensive to some hardcore firearms owners... which is why I quoted it. :thumbsup:

Librarian
05-12-2009, 3:47 PM
Hey Guys, I was reading this article, and I wanted to know how this is possible... What loophole are they speaking of?


Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns
Omar Samaha, Whose Sister Was Killed at VTech, Found Out How Simple It Is to Buy a Gun
(http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1)

I just don't understand how this works...

So is the following statement true? If I went to Virginia, and wanted to buy a Colt AR-15, I could walk up to any gun show and shell out some cash to any willing vendor, and take it home with me that day? No DROS, no background check, no 10 day wait, nothing? Does this "loophole" only apply to "used" guns, or would I be getting a brand new Colt lower?

This question is purely for educational purposes.

If you LIVED in VA, as opposed to visiting from another state, yes, I believe you have accurately described the situation for purchase from a private individual. FFL holders must still run the background check.

And since the same applies to the parking lot of the show or an individual's living room - that is, the Feds do not require a transfer to go through an FFL if both parties are residents of the same state - calling it a 'gun show loophole' is just sloganeering.

domokun
05-12-2009, 3:48 PM
All you ever wanted to know about this "myth" and then some can be found here:

http://www.gunfacts.info/index.html

Rivers
05-12-2009, 3:51 PM
At a gunshow (in pretty much any state other than CA), you can buy a gun from another private party without a background check or any paperwork. Buy a gun from a dealer and they will do an instant check for the immediate required approval. (So why does that take 10 days in CA??? We must have slow Internet...)

Think of the "loophole" as the last bar needed to complete the jail cell, where the good guys get dumped with the bad guys just because we own guns.

ke6guj
05-12-2009, 3:51 PM
they call it a "gun show loophole" because in many/most states, private parties can sell personal firearms without needing to use an FFL to facilitate the sale. Since the anti-gun people don't like it that the FFL sales rules only apply to FFLs, they call any non-FFL'ed sale a loophole sale.

viras
05-12-2009, 3:58 PM
I guess I never actually realized how bad we have it. I usually don't pay attention to other states laws because we have some many of our own to deal with, plus I rarely travel out of state anyway.

Thanks for educating me! Awesome link domokun. :thumbsup:

Dr Rockso
05-12-2009, 3:58 PM
In most states a private individual can sell a gun without involving a FFL. It has nothing to do with gun shows except that private parties can sell guns there, as well. An 01 FFL still needs to do a 4473 and NICS check.

RRangel
05-12-2009, 4:11 PM
Hey Guys, I was reading this article, and I wanted to know how this is possible... What loophole are they speaking of?


Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns
Omar Samaha, Whose Sister Was Killed at VTech, Found Out How Simple It Is to Buy a Gun
(http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1)

I just don't understand how this works...

So is the following statement true? If I went to Virginia, and wanted to buy a Colt AR-15, I could walk up to any gun show and shell out some cash to any willing vendor, and take it home with me that day? No DROS, no background check, no 10 day wait, nothing? Does this "loophole" only apply to "used" guns, or would I be getting a brand new Colt lower?

This question is purely for educational purposes.

There is no such thing. The term "loophole" is used to demonize the ability to buy firearms freely, that is without a FFL when doing a truly private party sale. They will not say that what they're really after is the elimination of all private party sales as in California. Our state is one of the few states that treat our 2nd Amendment as a privilege by requiring that government have a hand in most transactions. What the antis are doing is using the term "loophole" to bring the same California law into other states that are currently free.

M. D. Van Norman
05-12-2009, 4:25 PM
“If I Only Had a Gun” (http://mdvannorman.blogspot.com/2009/04/if-i-only-had-gun.html)

The Private-Property “Loophole” (http://www.dancinggiant.com/inn/recreation/firearms/loophole.html)

bohoki
05-12-2009, 4:27 PM
in some states people can sell guns face to face with no governmental interferance

at a gunshow dealers have to use the nics system but private parties do not so to some they see the "gun show" as a giant "store" where you can go in and buy a gun with no questions asked

but the gun show loophole they spew is just freedom to sell personal property

i personally would love a atf phone number that you could call and put in a state id card number and have it say it if the person is ok also input the make and serial to see if it is stolen just for my peace of mind but would not like it required if there is no access to a phone at the time of the sale

air soft rules!
05-12-2009, 4:28 PM
the term "loophole" should be reversed!! It is the hack politicians that have been finding "loopholes" in our constitution!! But after 218 years our 2 amendment has just had the one and only "loophole" shut!! In the Heller vs. DC ruling, we need to keep at them and be vigilint, I would love to hear them explain what a "straw man" purchase is!

gunsmith
05-12-2009, 4:50 PM
but I can explain very simply, CA has a "bookshow loophole"
and a "carshow loophole" meaning you can actually go to a book show and buy a book without getting an anal probe!
Same with cars!
This rampant freedom needs to be addressed somehow.

dfletcher
05-12-2009, 5:04 PM
Hey Guys, I was reading this article, and I wanted to know how this is possible... What loophole are they speaking of?


Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns
Omar Samaha, Whose Sister Was Killed at VTech, Found Out How Simple It Is to Buy a Gun
(http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1)

I just don't understand how this works...

So is the following statement true? If I went to Virginia, and wanted to buy a Colt AR-15, I could walk up to any gun show and shell out some cash to any willing vendor, and take it home with me that day? No DROS, no background check, no 10 day wait, nothing? Does this "loophole" only apply to "used" guns, or would I be getting a brand new Colt lower?

This question is purely for educational purposes.

Instead of "Gunshow Loophole" can we refer to them as private party sales because that, much more than the politically slanted term, is accurate and neutral.

Can you go to a Virginia gun show and LEGALLY buy a gun? No - you're not a VA resident. Can you go to a Virginia gun show and illegally acquire a gun at a gun show? I don't know how devious you might be so I can't say, but I probably can't. I'm not too good at lying or breaking the law. Can it be done - sure. But there is a bigger issue.

Can a person go to Virginia, open up a "pennysaver" magazine, go to someone's back yard and (illegally) buy a gun, just as they could at a gun show? Absolutely. No difference.

Gun shows follow the laws of the state in which they are held. In California we have to go through dealers for private party sales, in most states if I want to sell you (you being a good guy and over 18/21 years old) a gun, I sell it to you directly. That's the law, gun shows follow those laws. What makes gun shows susceptible to a PR beating is the concentration of sales. There are a fair amount of people privately selling guns to other people who are allowed to own guns - they're doing nothing differently than other residents, except they're doing it "en masse" instead of at a small flea market, on their back porch or in their living room. "Front Porch Loophole" just doesn't conjure up so forbidding an image as a gun show.

So these are nothing more than private party sales conducted in a gun show forum. And that brings up another issue - how does one intellectually allow that private sales at gun shows should be prohibited but private gun sales at home, at the gun club or out of newspapers should not be prohibited?

Using the Reno show as an example, it's held what - 4 times a year? Let's say (for discussion only, no idea of the numbers) at each show 500 private (no FFL legally required) sales take place. That's 2,000 private sales a year over 12 days in Nevada. My guess is many more private sales occur statewide away from the show on the remaining 353 days of the year. Allowing for a prohibition of private sales at gun shows inevitibly leads to a ban of all private party sales - the government would then be legally required to be involved in every single gun sale in this country.

Certainly after banning private sales at gun shows (having zero effect on crime) the antigunners would of course be shocked to discover it didn't work and would attribute it to all those other private sales occuring day after day away from the gun shows. Can't you just see Paul Helmke saying "Certainly we've eliminated the gunshow loophole & stopped 2,000 illegal gun sales in NV alone this year, but that does nothing to address the 8,000 gun sales a year that take place at home, at the range or out of someone's car". That would be the next step.

"Gun Show Loophole" is to private sales what "Assault Weapons" is to semi auto rifles - a loaded term designed to put us on the defensive. Either private party sales of personal property are permitted, or it is not permitted. But it ought not depend on location or frequency.

secretasianman
05-12-2009, 7:33 PM
So if I was a felon or a gangbanger, I could just dress up nicely, go to an out of state gun show and buy a non-C&R from a private party without a background check performed?

Dr Rockso
05-12-2009, 7:53 PM
So if I was a felon or a gangbanger, I could just dress up nicely, go to an out of state gun show and buy a non-C&R from a private party without a background check performed?
Maybe. Or you could buy it from your crack dealer.

jamesob
05-12-2009, 8:25 PM
whats a loophole? its either the law or it's not.

DDT
05-12-2009, 8:39 PM
So if I was a felon or a gangbanger, I could just dress up nicely, go to an out of state gun show and buy a non-C&R from a private party without a background check performed?

It would be a lot cheaper and easier to pass by just buying it on the black market here is CA. Buying a plane ticket etc. would cost too much to make that a viable alternative.

bohoki
05-12-2009, 10:27 PM
whats a loophole? its either the law or it's not.

well it seems like it is a loophole to the dealers they have to follow all kinds of rules when they sell a gun but joe sixpack can just hand his gun to his customer and walk away

why should those people be able to sell stuff without having to get all kinds of info while they have to keep perfect books and demand all kinds of intrusive questions answered

ldivinag
05-12-2009, 10:48 PM
Buy a gun from a dealer and they will do an instant check for the immediate required approval. (So why does that take 10 days in CA??? We must have slow Internet...)


dont forget, the 10 days is for "cooling off" period... not for background checks...

i guess people smarter than me (politicians) thought you shouldnt buy a gun when you're angry.

hence the cooling off period. as homer simpson found out during one episode that he had to wait for his gun he said "but i'm mad now"...

WokMaster1
05-13-2009, 7:37 AM
The only gunshow loophole is when Ivan opens the sidedoor at the Cow Palace GS & lets Dedeye in.:D

dfletcher
05-13-2009, 8:47 AM
dont forget, the 10 days is for "cooling off" period... not for background checks...

I guess people smarter than me (politicians) thought you shouldnt buy a gun when you're angry.

hence the cooling off period. as homer simpson found out during one episode that he had to wait for his gun he said "but i'm mad now"...

I'm not so sure about the cooling off period bit. If that were the case, already having a gun should logically exempt you from the 10 day wait. I mean, if you already own a gun and wanted to use it on bad impulse, you'd use it. Not go out and buy another one.

Personally I think the 10 day way is a way to diminish sales by taking away the impulse buy & instant gratification - how many fewer folks would buy a big screen TV, dishwasher or ice box if they had to wait 10 days to pick it up?

dfletcher
05-13-2009, 8:58 AM
well it seems like it is a loophole to the dealers they have to follow all kinds of rules when they sell a gun but joe sixpack can just hand his gun to his customer and walk away

why should those people be able to sell stuff without having to get all kinds of info while they have to keep perfect books and demand all kinds of intrusive questions answered

Because they (dealers) are federally licensed, are engaged in business and are not selling their own private property. Dealers are required to do all sorts of things the average person is not - log guns in & out, get IDs, keep records, review 4473s for accuracy. That's part of the price of being a dealer.

In states that have it, dealers are also required to collect sales tax. Is a private seller required - is that a "Sales Tax Loophole" or is it simply the law as written?

The average person is not engaged in the business and is certainly not licensed and is selling their own private property. The issue is not gun shows, the issue is does a person have the right to sell their own private property?

gravedigger
05-13-2009, 9:04 AM
The gun show loophole is simple to explain!

The gun show loophole is the single cause a liberal can point to, to explain why a person was able to legally purchase a handgun, rifle or shotgun at a gun show despite the decades of unpatriotic, Bush-hating Constitution-shredding, whining, temper tantrums, fear tactics, lies, distortions and half-truths of the anti-American socialists and the tireless efforts by the mainstream media to paint guns as evil organisms with a mind of their own and the ability to take control of their owners' thought processes and reason for the purpose of forcing them to walk into a public place and kill everyone in sight.

nick
05-13-2009, 9:21 AM
but I can explain very simply, CA has a "bookshow loophole"
and a "carshow loophole" meaning you can actually go to a book show and buy a book without getting an anal probe!
Same with cars!
This rampant freedom needs to be addressed somehow.

You still have to register the car afterwards. Books too, soon enough :)

Untamed1972
05-13-2009, 9:27 AM
The only thing that I think is odd about the "gunshow loophole" and might bug me if I was a dealer/vendor at the gunshow is that you have private parties coming in with cartloads (yes....I've seen people come in with carts with several rifles/hand guns on them all for sale) is that a vendor pays big bucks for booth space at the show and you have these people coming in and doing pvt. party sales INSIDE the show, for the $9-12 worth of admission.

I have nothing against PPT sales, just seems odd to be able to do it so openly at a pvt. event where vendors pay for space to sell.

maschronic
05-13-2009, 9:29 AM
if you buy a M1 Garand or mauser at a gun show from me, i will hand you the rifle as long as you have CDL. no DROS needed. interested? :)

grywlfbg
05-13-2009, 9:34 AM
All this being said, my Dad was telling me of some issues they have in Oklahoma where FFLs were transferring guns to themselves and then selling then doing private-party sales without any paperwork. Is it legal for FFls to transfer guns to themselves? If that's true then there truly is a loophole.

nick
05-13-2009, 9:58 AM
if you buy a M1 Garand or mauser at a gun show from me, i will hand you the rifle as long as you have CDL. no DROS needed. interested? :)

How much for the Garand?

hawk81
05-13-2009, 10:15 AM
It's not a loop hole, it's our right.

nick
05-13-2009, 10:22 AM
It's not a loop hole, it's our right.

You need to catch up on the modern lingo. If there's no law against it, it's a loophole.

jamesob
05-13-2009, 10:54 AM
well it seems like it is a loophole to the dealers they have to follow all kinds of rules when they sell a gun but joe sixpack can just hand his gun to his customer and walk away

why should those people be able to sell stuff without having to get all kinds of info while they have to keep perfect books and demand all kinds of intrusive questions answered
thats not a loophole thats the law the dealers have to follow.

7x57
05-13-2009, 10:58 AM
You need to catch up on the modern lingo. If there's no law against it, it's a loophole.

That's how the Normandy kings worked it, right? If a peasant is uppity, you quick make an ex post facto law against having a mole on your left cheek or something and throw him in the moat for witchcraft. :D

7x57 should possibly quit nettling Nick about his ancestors who wore the iron britches

nick
05-13-2009, 12:21 PM
That's how the Normandy kings worked it, right? If a peasant is uppity, you quick make an ex post facto law against having a mole on your left cheek or something and throw him in the moat for witchcraft. :D

Nope, the laws limiting monarchy and nobility's rule came later. One of the few nearly-universal rules was that serfs/thralls/smerds/etc. weren't allowed to have any weapons, the punishment being death. Owning weapons was reserved to the "free" people, freedom being a relative term, of course.

Regardless of what the rules in a specific fief were, a serf/smerd/thrall would do well if he didn't move out of the fief belonging to his senior though. For instance, if the senior he belonged to would allow the serf in question to have (not really own,since a serf couldn't own property on his own) and carry a knife to discharge a specific duty to the said senior, he wouldn't usually bother to write him a note confirming this, and even if he did, most people wouldn't be able to read it, anyway. So someone stopping that serf, especially outside of his senior's domain, could question the serf carrying that knife and prosecuting him by default. Besides, the senior of the domain the serf was caught carrying that knife in could be a believer in not allowing serfs anything resembling a weapon, and thus would prosecute the serf even if the serf had a note from his senior permitting him to have that knife, and the senior of the domain the serf was caught in could, or had someone who could read that note. Of course, the considerations of destroying some other senior's property would affect such a prosecution, as well.

Additionally, the serf's owner could've forgotten (or conveniently forgotten) that he gave the serf the permission to have that knife in the first place, if he so chose. The serf had no clan to protect him, so the senior could be as frivolous in such matters as his fear of a serf revolt and his conscience would allow him. Quite frivolous, in other words.

Occasionally some kings and large suzerains would decree some limitations on what could be done to a serf or a free person of no consequence, but those were either ignored beyond the suzerain in question's reach, or actively opposed as the infringement on the suzerainty of a nobleman in his domain, so at best the restrictions applied to landed gentry only, as they got the land and privileges on the condition of serving their suzerain, while the noblemen had other claims to their domains, with only theoretical dependence between owning their domain and service to the highest of suzerains - the monarch.

The noblemen's resentment would occasionally result in a revolt, a war of sorts, in their support of someone else's claims to the throne, and so forth; so such decreed limitations weren't very common without a very compelling reason (say, revenue being affected due to mistreatment of serfs). One example of the consequences of trying to infringe on nobility's power was Magna Carta. While we view it as the foundation of the rule of constitutional law, as opposed to ruling by the suzerain's decree, it was actually designed to stop the monarch's interference in how noblemen ran their domains. The "people" it protects was later expanded to include other "free" men, as an afterthought to get the support of the Church (many of whose notables were of low birth).

I'm sure you'll find many similarities to our gun laws. Humans will be humans :)

7x57 should possibly quit nettling Nick about his ancestors who wore the iron britches

That's ok. An insult is only a personal insult to one's honor when it comes from an equal; an insult from a lowborn isn't really a personal insult, but rather an insult to one's stature. As such, it's not avenged, but prosecuted. I hope you've learnt to enjoy the rack. If not, that's ok, it won't last long, anyway, and will end with hanging :p

Josh3239
05-13-2009, 12:58 PM
It is not a loophole, people need to stop calling it that.

The federal government mandated (in the 30's I believe) that people in the business of selling firearms need an FFL. It the GCA in the late 60's that said that all liscenced dealers must conduct a DROS and a background check. People's without a liscence to deal firearms are not required to conduct a background check or a DROS.

This is what the anti-gunners refer to as the "gunshow loophole". Firstly, how can the lack of a law be called a loophole? That is about as smart as saying, being allowed to read the Communist Manifesto is a loophole. Second, this isn't limited to gun shows. According to federal law I can sell my guns (as an unliscenced person) to another (unliscenced) person without conducting a background check or a DROS, I can do it at my home, at your home, at a gunshow, out of my car, in a sex shop, or pretty much wherever I want. Now obviously state laws come into play, but we are just talking with regard to federal laws.

This myth was made up by Clinton as an excuse to try to ban cash and carrys and eventually gunshows themselves.

Dr Rockso
05-13-2009, 2:57 PM
All this being said, my Dad was telling me of some issues they have in Oklahoma where FFLs were transferring guns to themselves and then selling then doing private-party sales without any paperwork. Is it legal for FFls to transfer guns to themselves? If that's true then there truly is a loophole.
That's not a loophole, that's just called 'breaking the law'. The FFL is clearly engaged in the business of selling firearms, meaning he has to follow the rules.

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 3:05 PM
All this being said, my Dad was telling me of some issues they have in Oklahoma where FFLs were transferring guns to themselves and then selling then doing private-party sales without any paperwork. Is it legal for FFls to transfer guns to themselves? If that's true then there truly is a loophole.Federally, An FFL can transfer a gun to themselves. It has to be documented in the bound book that it is going into the owner's personal collection.

If the owner sells the gun within a year, it must be logged back into the bound book and then 4473'd as if it was a dealer sale.

If the owner waited more than a year, then he could sell it in the same manner than any other unlicensed person could.

SKSer
05-13-2009, 6:55 PM
Can I, a California resident, take my rifle from California to Virginia and then sell it at a gun show PPT?

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 7:03 PM
you can, but you'd have to comply with both Virginia and federal law. You would need to use a Virginia FFL to facilitate the transfer.

cousinkix1953
05-13-2009, 9:35 PM
It would be a lot cheaper and easier to pass by just buying it on the black market here is CA. Buying a plane ticket etc. would cost too much to make that a viable alternative.
Try the flea markets or a garage sale. Most of the sellers aren't gun savvy types, who are familiar with the laws. I used to buy old surplus C&Rs and nobody ever asked for my ID or even mentioned background checks. People even sell guns on a Saturday morning talk show hosted by a Fresno radio station. These issues might be raised if you call, but maybe they won't mention it...

DocSkinner
05-14-2009, 9:38 AM
Hey Guys, I was reading this article, and I wanted to know how this is possible... What loophole are they speaking of?


Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns
Omar Samaha, Whose Sister Was Killed at VTech, Found Out How Simple It Is to Buy a Gun
(http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1)

I just don't understand how this works...

So is the following statement true? If I went to Virginia, and wanted to buy a Colt AR-15, I could walk up to any gun show and shell out some cash to any willing vendor, and take it home with me that day? No DROS, no background check, no 10 day wait, nothing? Does this "loophole" only apply to "used" guns, or would I be getting a brand new Colt lower?

This question is purely for educational purposes.

You can not walk up to a vendor and buy it.

If an individual was selling it as an individual, you could buy it, as DROS on PTP sales is a Cali thing. Most states do not regulate person to person sales. HEll - you can even give a family member, friend, etc a gun as an actual present without jumping through all the paperwork hoops.

DocSkinner
05-14-2009, 9:42 AM
you can, but you'd have to comply with both Virginia and federal law. You would need to use a Virginia FFL to facilitate the transfer.

you may not have to go through an FFL to take your rifle to Virgina, and teh sell would be under THEIR laws - so unless they require an FFL to be part of a PTP sale, you would not need an FFL involvement.

Now most states and federal law has provisions for a resident of a different state BUYING a firearm in the non-resident state. If the BUYER is a legal resident of that state, it is probaly legal.

but then who exactly checks all these PTP sales? THAT is what scares the antis.

Not a lawyer - so not legal advice. Call a Virgina lawyer and ask.

DocSkinner
05-14-2009, 9:48 AM
So if I was a felon or a gangbanger, I could just dress up nicely, go to an out of state gun show and buy a non-C&R from a private party without a background check performed?

Like any gangbanger is going to do that...

far easier (and probably far cheaper) for them to just illegally buy them on the street here. That is far too much effort for gang bangers.

ke6guj
05-14-2009, 11:38 AM
you may not have to go through an FFL to take your rifle to Virgina, and teh sell would be under THEIR laws - so unless they require an FFL to be part of a PTP sale, you would not need an FFL involvement.

Now most states and federal law has provisions for a resident of a different state BUYING a firearm in the non-resident state. If the BUYER is a legal resident of that state, it is probaly legal.


If an non-VA resident goes to VA to sell a firearm, he has to comply with both VA and federal law. I don't know VA law regarding a face-to-face private-party sale, but federal prohibits it unless they use a VA FFL to facilitate the transfer.



TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

cousinkix1953
05-14-2009, 7:32 PM
Like any gangbanger is going to do that...

far easier (and probably far cheaper) for them to just illegally buy them on the street here. That is far too much effort for gang bangers.
Not to mention that gun shows are full of cops too. Busted! Gang bangers are better buying them from their homies.

DocSkinner
05-14-2009, 7:57 PM
If an non-VA resident goes to VA to sell a firearm, he has to comply with both VA and federal law. I don't know VA law regarding a face-to-face private-party sale, but federal prohibits it unless they use a VA FFL to facilitate the transfer.

Interesting - did not know the federal part.

so now given that code you cited, a Californian could take their rifle to VA, and sell it to another Californian there PTP?

Seems even stranger...

ke6guj
05-14-2009, 8:04 PM
so now given that code you cited, a Californian could take their rifle to VA, and sell it to another Californian there PTP?

Seems even stranger...

That sale might be legal, but the buyer could not bring it back to CA without violating federal law.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm
obtained in conformity with the provisions of Sec. Sec. 478.30 and
478.97.





Sec. 478.29a Acquisition of firearms by nonresidents.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, who does not reside in any State
shall receive any firearms unless such receipt is for lawful sporting
purposes.