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XJJack
05-12-2009, 8:11 AM
My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way. We are well versed in using these firearms, just not up to speed on the rules. Nether one of us has an HSC but my wife used to be a range master 20+ years ago. They are all properly stored in our safe and secured when transported to and from a safe shooting area.
I would like to remain off any government controlled list but especially the guilty list. So if there are any problems how would one solve these issues now with several of these relatives being dead?


Thank you

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 8:33 AM
My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way. We are well versed in using these firearms, just not up to speed on the rules. Nether one of us has an HSC but my wife used to be a range master 20+ years ago. They are all properly stored in our safe and secured when transported to and from a safe shooting area.
I would like to remain off any government controlled list but especially the guilty list. So if there are any problems how would one solve these issues now with several of these relatives being dead?


Thank youYes you are. And, you are both right wing extremists.

It's too late. You are on the list. They read all the posts on all gun forums.

abalone hunter
05-12-2009, 8:42 AM
bend over and asume the postion

cineski
05-12-2009, 8:43 AM
Steve, why post replies like this? OP, I don't know the answer or when you actually received the guns or who the family members were? If you answer that it may help.

M. D. Van Norman
05-12-2009, 8:43 AM
File an Operation of Law or Intrafamilial Handgun Transaction Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) to comply with the law.

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 8:46 AM
There is no law that says you have to register weapons you own unless they are classified as assault weapons.

Where you might run into trouble is if you are charged with a CCW violation and you are carrying a gun that is not registered to you. It becomes a felony.

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 8:49 AM
Steve, why post replies like this? OP, I don't know the answer or when you actually received the guns or who the family members were? If you answer that it may help.A joke. :rolleyes:
See my follow up post.

Sam1
05-12-2009, 8:55 AM
^^^ I thought handguns had to be registered with the ca doj?

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 9:02 AM
^^^ I thought handguns had to be registered with the ca doj?
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#25
26. How do I know if my firearms need to be registered?

There is no firearm registration requirement in California except for assault weapon owners and personal handgun importers. However, you may submit a Firearm Ownership Record to the DOJ for any firearm you own. Having a Firearm Ownership Record on file with the DOJ may help in the return of your firearm if it is lost or stolen. With very few and specific exceptions, all firearm transactions must be conducted through a firearms dealer.

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:03 AM
There is no law that says you have to register weapons you own unless they are classified as assault weapons.

Where you might run into trouble is if you are charged with a CCW violation and you are carrying a gun that is not registered to you. It becomes a felony.

Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered, It is different if the other family members are letting them "borrow" the handguns for what, 30 days, However the long guns arent to much to worry about, If your Mother/Father gave you the rifles, or your Wifes Mother/Father, or if your children gave you the rifles then its cool, Now if you received the rifles in a different state while you where a resident of that state, and followed the letter of the law while there then your good to go, so all in all make sure your pistols are register, the ones that where "given" to you, after that your golden

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:04 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#25
26. How do I know if my firearms need to be registered?

There is no firearm registration requirement in California except for assault weapon owners and personal handgun importers. However, you may submit a Firearm Ownership Record to the DOJ for any firearm you own. Having a Firearm Ownership Record on file with the DOJ may help in the return of your firearm if it is lost or stolen. With very few and specific exceptions, all firearm transactions must be conducted through a firearms dealer.

So your hand guns arent registered?

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 9:08 AM
Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered, It is different if the other family members are letting them "borrow" the handguns for what, 30 days, However the long guns arent to much to worry about, If your Mother/Father gave you the rifles, or your Wifes Mother/Father, or if your children gave you the rifles then its cool, Now if you received the rifles in a different state while you where a resident of that state, and followed the letter of the law while there then your good to go, so all in all make sure your pistols are register, the ones that where "given" to you, after that your goldenAnd you are quoting what Penal Code section?

RomanDad
05-12-2009, 9:10 AM
Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered,


Just simply not true.

And you are quoting what Penal Code section?


x10

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:15 AM
SO you guys are saying that if I sold you a hand gun that you dont have to transfer it/ register it?

Im not talking about a gun that you bought back in 1975 that isnt registered because that pre dates that whole registration thing,

FreedomIsNotFree
05-12-2009, 9:16 AM
Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered, It is different if the other family members are letting them "borrow" the handguns for what, 30 days, However the long guns arent to much to worry about, If your Mother/Father gave you the rifles, or your Wifes Mother/Father, or if your children gave you the rifles then its cool, Now if you received the rifles in a different state while you where a resident of that state, and followed the letter of the law while there then your good to go, so all in all make sure your pistols are register, the ones that where "given" to you, after that your golden

Don't be so quick to tell people they are wrong. I believe the handgun registration requirement began in the early 80's. Is it your contention that all handguns transferred prior to that year were done so illegally, even though there was no requirement to do so? There are countless thousands of handguns that are perfectly legal yet not registered with the state.

l_Z_l
05-12-2009, 9:16 AM
i thought registering the older pre 90's guns was just voluntary...there wasn't any really system in place like now...correct me if i'm wrong...

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:17 AM
For those who are moving into cali with handguns
(PC sections 12001(n), 12072(f)(2))

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:20 AM
Don't be so quick to tell people they are wrong. I believe the handgun registration requirement began in the early 80's. Is it your contention that all handguns transferred prior to that year were done so illegally, even though there was no requirement to do so? There are countless thousands of handguns that are perfectly legal yet not registered with the state.

Oh no, Like I said in a post before, Im talking about new hand guns, Even thought the OP said they have been shooting for +20 years I do believe that they he said he did get a gun in the 90's, if that is a handgun then it must be registered, If you came into posesion of the handgun before registration it only makes sense that you didnt register it.

RomanDad
05-12-2009, 9:21 AM
My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way. We are well versed in using these firearms, just not up to speed on the rules. Nether one of us has an HSC but my wife used to be a range master 20+ years ago. They are all properly stored in our safe and secured when transported to and from a safe shooting area.
I would like to remain off any government controlled list but especially the guilty list. So if there are any problems how would one solve these issues now with several of these relatives being dead?


Thank you
You didnt specify WHEN you acquired the guns over the years (other than the ones you purchased from stores prior to '92... You have no problems with those assuming youve been a California Resident since then.... If you moved here since 1998 with those guns, you may be a "Personal Handgun importer" as defined by cpc 12072f2.) The requirement for Person To Person transfers to go through an FFL Was in January of '91 I believe.... So if you got the other "gift guns" prior to that you're fine. If you got them afterwards you may have done an illegal transfer. You also didnt state what the relationship of the relatives are to you, as that may effect the issue as well.

If you are concerned about the legality of it all, I would suggest contacting one of the many gun lawyers associated with the board. Colodney, Davis, Michel, Kilmer etc.

jasilva
05-12-2009, 9:21 AM
For those who are moving into cali with handguns
(PC sections 12001(n), 12072(f)(2))

Now that you've given your opinion without the full facts as stated by the OP go back and read his ENTIRE post. Pay particular attention to the part where he states he hasn't bought or received ANY guns since 1992.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22434&d=1241338153

paul0660
05-12-2009, 9:24 AM
Handguns still in the possession of the person who possessed them prior to the requirement for registration don't have to be registered, but the felony enhancement of illegally carrying concealed is a fact. Any transfer, even one that doesn't have to go through an FFL, has to be reported.

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:25 AM
Now that you've given your opinion without the full facts as stated by the OP go back and read his ENTIRE post. Pay particular attention to the part where he states he hasn't bought ANY guns since 1992.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22434&d=1241338153

And when did Handgun registration begin?

bussda
05-12-2009, 9:28 AM
My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way. We are well versed in using these firearms, just not up to speed on the rules. Nether one of us has an HSC but my wife used to be a range master 20+ years ago. They are all properly stored in our safe and secured when transported to and from a safe shooting area.
I would like to remain off any government controlled list but especially the guilty list. So if there are any problems how would one solve these issues now with several of these relatives being dead?


Thank you

If you have been in the state prior to 1991(?) and acquired all the firearms prior to that time you are fine with one exception (Unlicensed CCW). Any firearms acquired after 1991(?) needed to be processed via the California DROS (Dealer Record of Sale). Entering California after 1991(?) would have required handguns (only) be registered. Receiving a firearm from out of state after establishing California residency requires the tranaction be processed through an FFL. But if many of the relatives now being deceased, you could just state you got them prior to entering the state (What can be proved).

A dated (2006) guide from the Attorney General can be found here (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf).

A HSC is only required for the acquistion (purchase or inheritance) of a firearm.

And if you have an "assault weapon" or a firearm capable of shooting shotgun shells that is not a shotgun (e.g. Thompson/Center Contender or American Derringer in the caliber .45LC/.410), get them out of state (This is a short barrelled shotgun - SBS; Felony).

Be aware of what it means to have a loaded weapon. Read this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)for more information.

Based on what you have stated you should be fine, but you may need to get a California DOJ approved locks or storage container. :)

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 9:38 AM
And when did Handgun registration begin?

That does not matter. Nothing requires a handgun to be registered. All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... maybe that is where your confusion comes from, but regardless, it is confusion.


In my case, when my handgun found its way into the custody of the CHP by an illegal arrest perpetrated by a CHP officer, I STILL had to prove the handgun was mine. It was not in the DOJ computer. Because no law requires guns to be registered, there was no crime to charge me with. In order to get the gun back however, I had to go to the gun store I bought it from and pay him to dig up the original 4473 form proving I purchased it legally.

MudCamper
05-12-2009, 9:38 AM
DROS process began: 1954 for handguns, 1991 for long guns
DROS for PPTs: 1991 (both handguns and long guns)
"Registration" for handguns: 1991 (automatically with DROS)

Handguns waiting periods:
3 days - 1954
5 days - 1966
15 days - 1976
10 days - 1997

Long guns waiting periods:
15 days - 1991
10 days - 1996

So any firearms you received from family or any other PPT before 1991 is NOT registered. Any handgun transaction that was DROSed after 1991 is registered. There is NO requirement that you voluntarily register your non-registered handguns. Rifles have NO registration. Only the 4473 is kept for 20 years by the dealer (or the ATF if the dealer goes out of business). The DROS for long guns are destroyed.

fuegoslow
05-12-2009, 9:40 AM
Futurecollector, I understand your concern about following the Law, but you are confusing "registration" with DROS(Dealer Record of Sale). Registration only exists for "Assault Wepons" or Class III Fully Automatic weapons. Registration for handguns or longuns that are not in that category is a step towards confiscation from the government. Research will show anyone that the NRA is strongly opposed to registration, and so should you. Let me re-iterate, a gun purchase from an FFL or transfer between private parties that goes through an FFL has NOT BEEN Registered. Only a record of sale through a dealer has occured.

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 9:45 AM
That does not matter. Nothing requires a handgun to be registered. All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... maybe that is where your confusion comes from, but regardless, it is confusion.


In my case, when my handgun found its way into the custody of the CHP by an illegal arrest perpetrated by a CHP officer, I STILL had to prove the handgun was mine. It was not in the DOJ computer. Because no law requires guns to be registered, there was no crime to charge me with. In order to get the gun back however, I had to go to the gun store I bought it from and pay him to dig up the original 4473 form proving I purchased it legally.


WTH, lol, So when I get pulled over by the cops and they run the serial numbers on my glock what do they match those to? I understand that DROS is not the same as registering in regards to Rifles, I got that, But there have been many many members that have told me that we do infact have our hand guns registered, as of 1991, when we DROS a hand gun the DOJ, doesnt retain that information? I still want to know how the cops can run my serial number and see exactley who it belongs to? and yes this has happend before...

Futurecollector, I understand your concern about following the Law, but you are confusing "registration" with DROS(Dealer Record of Sale). Registration only exists for "Assault Wepons" or Class III Fully Automatic weapons. Registration for handguns or longuns that are not in that category is a step towards confiscation from the government. Research will show anyone that the NRA is strongly opposed to registration, and so should you. Let me re-iterate, a gun purchase from an FFL or transfer between private parties that goes through an FFL has NOT BEEN Registered. Only a record of sale through a dealer has occured.


and yeah I got the whole Gov taking away guns and registration being the first step, also when I send in my Intrafamily transfer what happens to that info? It isnt put into a database of some sort? If not then what the hell is the point of doing it then?

XJJack
05-12-2009, 9:47 AM
There is no law that says you have to register weapons you own unless they are classified as assault weapons.

Where you might run into trouble is if you are charged with a CCW violation and you are carrying a gun that is not registered to you. It becomes a felony.

Being that I never carry conceiled this would not be an issue. They are in locked boxes seporate from ammo in transport and returned to the safe after cleaning.

MudCamper
05-12-2009, 9:49 AM
I still want to know how the cops can run my serial number and see exactley who it belongs to?

Any handgun DROSed after 1991 is automatically registered. See my post above.

bussda
05-12-2009, 9:54 AM
... but you are confusing "registration" with DROS(Dealer Record of Sale). Registration only exists for "Assault Wepons" or Class III Fully Automatic weapons. ... Let me re-iterate, a gun purchase from an FFL or transfer between private parties that goes through an FFL has NOT BEEN Registered. Only a record of sale through a dealer has occured.

There are two different points in this argument.

There is no Federal registration of firearms.

There is a California registration of handguns, only. Any tranaction in California requires a DROS and the serial number is recorded by the DOJ. Longarms and shotguns only record the transaction.

fuegoslow
05-12-2009, 9:55 AM
It is linked to your State Drivers License or ID #. That's why when you change address, there's no law requiring you to tell the DOJ where your guns are currently "living/staying". That's where registration comes in to play, like telling the DMV where your car will be parked each night.

Futurecollector
05-12-2009, 10:01 AM
Any handgun DROSed after 1991 is automatically registered. See my post above.

It is linked to your State Drivers License or ID #. That's why when you change address, there's no law requiring you to tell the DOJ where your guns are currently "living/staying". That's where registration comes in to play, like telling the DMV where your car will be parked each night.

Ok so Im not missing anything, The OP said that he got a Gun, he didnt specify what type of gun, rifle or pistol, therefore if he got a Pistol after 1991, and it is not registered its a no-no correct? This is because he received it from say his dad and didnt complete a Intrafamily transfer or a PPT, and if he did do a PPT or just bought it through his FFL then his is golden,

bussda
05-12-2009, 10:04 AM
It is linked to your State Drivers License or ID #. That's why when you change address, there's no law requiring you to tell the DOJ where your guns are currently "living/staying". That's where registration comes in to play, like telling the DMV where your car will be parked each night.

Yes. But the databases for DMV and DOJ Firearms are crosslinked. You give your address change to the DMV, it gets reported to the DOJ. If the firearm is tied to your license or ID, it will still have the latest DMV recorded information.

bussda
05-12-2009, 10:09 AM
Any handgun DROSed after 1991 is automatically registered. See my post above.

And handguns DROSed prior to 1991 may be registered.

As a way of explaining, I had contact (voluntary, nonconfrontational) with a law enforcement agency in the 1980's. During the course of this he produced a list of all the firearms I owned. Boy, was I surprised! And I don't know if that list included any longarms or shotguns.

bodger
05-12-2009, 10:10 AM
This is confusing to me.
If someone went into a gun shop in say, 1988, bought two handguns and a long gun, kept them for 6 months, and sold them to a private party w/o going through an FFL, as I understand it, at that time, this was legal to do.

Now that the laws have changed, is there a problem with the fact that there are guns out there that were sold legally at the time, but are now in the posession of someone other than the original purchaser and there is no record of the sale?

And what if one of the long guns has since been classified as an AW, even though at the time, it was just another legal long gun? If you aren't in posession of the rifle, but it is out there somewhere and not registered, is there anything to worry about?

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:13 AM
This is confusing to me.
If someone went into a gun shop in say, 1988, bought two handguns and a long gun, kept them for 6 months, and sold them to a private party w/o going through an FFL, as I understand it, at that time, this was legal to do.

Now that the laws have changed, is there a problem with the fact that there are guns out there that were sold legally at the time, but are now in the posession of someone other than the original purchaser and there is no record of the sale?

And what if one of the long guns has since been classified as an AW, even though at the time, it was just another legal long gun?

You got it... prior to 1991, you could buy a handgun from someone face to face without the government ever knowing.

All guns aquired before 1991 are legal to possess unregistered.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 10:15 AM
If you have been in the state prior to 1991(?) and acquired all the firearms prior to that time you are fine with one exception (Unlicensed CCW). Any firearms acquired after 1991(?) needed to be processed via the California DROS (Dealer Record of Sale). Entering California after 1991(?) would have required handguns (only) be registered. Receiving a firearm from out of state after establishing California residency requires the tranaction be processed through an FFL. But if many of the relatives now being deceased, you could just state you got them prior to entering the state (What can be proved).

A dated (2006) guide from the Attorney General can be found here (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf).

A HSC is only required for the acquistion (purchase or inheritance) of a firearm.

And if you have an "assault weapon" or a firearm capable of shooting shotgun shells that is not a shotgun (e.g. Thompson/Center Contender or American Derringer in the caliber .45LC/.410), get them out of state (This is a short barrelled shotgun - SBS; Felony).

Be aware of what it means to have a loaded weapon. Read this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660)for more information.

Based on what you have stated you should be fine, but you may need to get a California DOJ approved locks or storage container. :)

Thank you
I have been in California all of my life.
I do not have any "assault weapons" but this may change as the definition of the word changes as I am constructing a AR type rifle from a "paper wieght".;)
to be more detailed
686 wife bought around the late 80's
Servicemaster wife bought in mid 80's
Glock 17 I bought in 92' from B&B
Colt Anaconda from mother in 90's in state, she got it from from her out of state brother shortlly before (same year)

Savage 67 shotgun from father in early 90's He got from his father in 80's who said that it was given to him from a Texas Highway patrol officer in the 60's (not sure of the piticulars thereas this is thrid hand info)
Remington 870 shotgun from father in 90's
bolt action 410 shotgun from mother in 90's
2 22's from 60's from mother to me in 90's
bolt action 270 from father in 90's from his uncle in Kansas after death in 90's


I'm sure he will soon be giving me a Colt blackhawk 41 soon that was given to him from a cousin in Kansas after it was giving to him to pay fro car repairs at his auto shop.


These are all stored in a Canon Dangerous game safe.

bodger
05-12-2009, 10:18 AM
You got it... prior to 1991, you could buy a handgun from someone face to face without the government ever knowing.

All guns aquired before 1991 are legal to possess unregistered.

I'm assuming that would not apply to a long arm that has since been classified as an AW?

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:20 AM
I'm assuming that would not apply to a long arm that has since been classified as an AW?

As previously stated... this does not apply to assault weapons, long gun or otherwise.

There were many people that bought legal rifles that later got banned... they failed to get notification of the ban.... the grace period in the ban expired, and they had a legally-purchased, illegally possessed assault weapon.

eaglemike
05-12-2009, 10:24 AM
That does not matter. Nothing requires a handgun to be registered. All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... maybe that is where your confusion comes from, but regardless, it is confusion.


In my case, when my handgun found its way into the custody of the CHP by an illegal arrest perpetrated by a CHP officer, I STILL had to prove the handgun was mine. It was not in the DOJ computer. Because no law requires guns to be registered, there was no crime to charge me with. In order to get the gun back however, I had to go to the gun store I bought it from and pay him to dig up the original 4473 form proving I purchased it legally.
Emphasis added, for clarification.....

IMHO Should read " if purchased after PPT's required registration or from FFL dealer...."

I might have one or more purchased from a private party prior to 1990. I also have a revolver my grandfather gave me in the '80's......

all the best,
Mike

bodger
05-12-2009, 10:26 AM
As previously stated... this does not apply to assault weapons, long gun or otherwise.

There were many people that bought legal rifles that later got banned... they failed to get notification of the ban.... the grace period in the ban expired, and they had a legally-purchased, illegally possessed assault weapon.

So, if such a weapon was purchased legally prior to the ban, and sold legally prior to the ban, it is the person who is in possession of the now classified and unregistered AW who is in jeopardy?

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:30 AM
Emphasis added, for clarification.....

IMHO Should read " if purchased after PPT's required registration or from FFL dealer...."

I might have one or more purchased from a private party prior to 1990. I also have a revolver my grandfather gave me in the '80's......


No clarification is required sir.

My statement was NOT "All unregistered firearms were acquired illegally".

My statement was:

"All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... "

meaning... when one goes down to an FFL and purchases a handgun today, it is automatically registered.

I said that to emphasize that maybe he is confused because of CURRENT law requiring all new purchases be registered.

bussda
05-12-2009, 10:35 AM
Thank you
I have been in California all of my life.
I do not have any "assault weapons" but this may change as the definition of the word changes as I am constructing a AR type rifle from a "paper wieght".;)
to be more detailed ...

Be aware of the OLL build points (Bullet button, pistol grip, threaded barrel, etc.). Best info is following the guide above. Also be aware of the "zip gun" trap here in California.



I'm sure he will soon be giving me a Colt blackhawk 41 soon that was given to him from a cousin in Kansas after it was giving to him to pay fro car repairs at his auto shop.

This is a problem if it is still out of California. Unless the Colt is on the California Approved gun list, the transaction must take place through a FFL, who cannot complete it. Exceptions: Parent currently in Califonia and currently the gun is here too (interfamily transaction); Or the firearm is a single action and barrel is over 7 inches long.

These are all stored in a Canon Dangerous game safe.

But is it California DOJ approved? This is more a feeble attempt at humor. Must meet all of the bureaucratic requirements. :)

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:36 AM
So, if such a weapon was purchased legally prior to the ban, and sold legally prior to the ban, it is the person who is in possession of the now classified and unregistered AW who is in jeopardy?

I would say that is correct.


If memory serves:
The person who owned and possessed that weapon on January first of that year had a set time period to register the weapon. After that date sunset, there was an amnesty period where those that did not register in time were exempt from prosecution if the weapon was sold or destroyed by a certain date.... after THAT date, anyone who had not registered their weapon and still possessed it was subject to prosecution.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 10:37 AM
No clarification is required sir.

My statement was NOT "All unregistered firearms were acquired illegally".

My statement was:

"All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... "

meaning... when one goes down to an FFL and purchases a handgun today, it is automatically registered.

I said that to emphasize that maybe he is confused because of CURRENT law requiring all new purchases be registered.

Yes, I am aware of the rules with a new purchase and am avoiding that purposelly.

It just floors me that those that are still not on the internet would have no idea any of this was a problem and still give,sell,trade all type of firearms and they are now criminals and have done no harm to anyone.

Suvorov
05-12-2009, 10:43 AM
So in a related question:

What would be the best way to prove you were the rightful owner of a handgun you purchased face to face prior to 91 or moved to the PRK prior to 1998 for which you had no receipt?

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:43 AM
Yes, I am aware of the rules with a new purchase and am avoiding that purposelly.

It just floors me that those that are still not on the internet would have no idea any of this was a problem and still give,sell,trade all type of firearms and they are now criminals and have done no harm to anyone.

Welcome to this wonderful state.

It is worse than that. What about people that took plea bargains to certain disqualifying misdemeanors that prohibit gun ownership?

There were countless people that took plea bargains to misdemeanor spousal battery 10-20 years ago before it negated gun ownership only to find out that the federal government passed an ex post facto law that instantly took away gun rights for life. At the time, had they been told it would remove gun rights, they would have fought it.

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:46 AM
So in a related question:

What would be the best way to prove you were the rightful owner of a handgun you purchased face to face prior to 91 or moved to the PRK prior to 1998 for which you had no receipt?

You'd have a lot of research on your hands.

You'd probably have to go to the guy you bought it from and get a notarized statement that he sold you the firearm before that date. Absent that, I doubt you could.

This is why you either need to voluntarily register it, or assume that if it ever finds its way into police custody, you'll never see it again.

bodger
05-12-2009, 10:47 AM
So in a related question:

What would be the best way to prove you were the rightful owner of a handgun you purchased face to face prior to 91 or moved to the PRK prior to 1998 for which you had no receipt?

Excellent question, and one that I have pondered many times. And also, if one had sold a gun legally prior to ' 91, and that gun surfaces as a weapon used in a crime, how could you prove that it was sold legally in a face-to-face transaction prior to ' 91?

Suvorov
05-12-2009, 10:50 AM
You'd have a lot of research on your hands.

You'd probably have to go to the guy you bought it from and get a notarized statement that he sold you the firearm before that date. Absent that, I doubt you could.

This is why you either need to voluntarily register it, or assume that if it ever finds its way into police custody, you'll never see it again.

Voluntarily register a paperless legally owned handgun? That my friend would send a man straight to hell.

I would assume a sales receipt showing the serial number and date of purchase would suffice?

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:51 AM
Excellent question, and one that I have pondered many times. And also, if one had sold a gun legally prior to ' 91, and that gun surfaces as a weapon used in a crime, how could you prove that it was sold legally in a face-to-face transaction prior to ' 91?

That is where burden of proof comes in. The government would have to prove that you sold it illegally. If you did the transfer legally, then you're fine.

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 10:52 AM
Voluntarily register a paperless legally owned handgun? That my friend would send a man straight to hell.

I would assume a sales receipt showing the serial number and date of purchase would suffice?

From a PPT??? It is doubtful that would work.

In my case, they required the 4473 form I filled out at the gun store.

jasilva
05-12-2009, 10:56 AM
This is a problem if it is still out of California. Unless the Colt is on the California Approved gun list, the transaction must take place through a FFL, who cannot complete it.


But is it California DOJ approved? This is more a feeble attempt at humor. Must meet all of the bureaucratic requirements. :)

Roster does NOT apply to these transactions. The FFL CAN complete the transaction, however most don't know this and will tell you no.

bussda
05-12-2009, 10:57 AM
So in a related question:

What would be the best way to prove you were the rightful owner of a handgun you purchased face to face prior to 91 or moved to the PRK prior to 1998 for which you had no receipt?

The two other replies to this post make a good point. But it basically is that a gun in this situation is just like anything else, TV, Computer, Sofa. If the item is stolen, you may get it back depending on the identifying information supplied when you reported it stolen.

But the police report assumes your ownership unless there is a prior report of it being stolen.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 11:06 AM
Be aware of the OLL build points (Bullet button, pistol grip, threaded barrel, etc.). Best info is following the guide above. Also be aware of the "zip gun" trap here in California.



This is a problem if it is still out of California. Unless the Colt is on the California Approved gun list, the transaction must take place through a FFL, who cannot complete it. Exceptions: Parent currently in Califonia and currently the gun is here too (interfamily transaction); Or the firearm is a single action and barrel is over 7 inches long.



But is it California DOJ approved? This is more a feeble attempt at humor. Must meet all of the bureaucratic requirements. :)

Yes, the blackhawk is in California with my father and I do believe it is single action and may have a 7" barrel.

About the AR, I am following current guides and it will have a U15 stock with none of the scarry stuff and probably a bullit button for good measure.

bussda
05-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Roster does NOT apply to these transactions. The FFL CAN complete the transaction, however most don't know this and will tell you no.

This is something that has been argued both ways. But quoting more knowlegeable people. Transactions through an FFL, except for Private Party Transactions (PPT), which require both persons to be California Residents, the handgun must be on the roster. If this is not correct, then there is some information that is not widely disseminated.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 11:17 AM
The two other replies to this post make a good point. But it basically is that a gun in this situation is just like anything else, TV, Computer, Sofa. If the item is stolen, you may get it back depending on the identifying information supplied when you reported it stolen.

But the police report assumes your ownership unless there is a prior report of it being stolen.

I would hope that my photos with list of serial numbers would be enought to show ownership.
Maybe the photos should have me in the picture and a newspaper to show the date.

bussda
05-12-2009, 11:19 AM
Yes, the blackhawk is in California with my father and I do believe it is single action and may have a 7" barrel.


Current law is you only have to complete a "OPERATION OF LAW OR
INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION" form. Easier then going to an FFL. And you get around the HSC requirement (I think).

But when you take possession, check and make sure the rules haven't changed. The law is always changing. Legal yesterday, illegal today, legal tomorrow.

ChuckBooty
05-12-2009, 11:29 AM
I would just do the voluntary registration for through the DOJ, pay the ninteen dollars, and be done with it.

Librarian
05-12-2009, 11:32 AM
Current law is you only have to complete a "OPERATION OF LAW OR
INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION" form. Easier then going to an FFL. And you get around the HSC requirement (I think).

But when you take possession, check and make sure the rules haven't changed. The law is always changing. Legal yesterday, illegal today, legal tomorrow.

Nope - HSC is required even for that.

See
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

XJJack
05-12-2009, 11:35 AM
Even here in a place were we are trying to keep up with what is ok and what is not it is easy to understand why people want to just turn over there guns at these "buyback" programs just so they can avoid this hassle and

"better to get them out of circulation than have them continue to be misused by irresponsible persons..."

I did not relize it was a misuse or irresponsible to be a gun owner as nobody has even been hurt by anything I own including my guns.

bussda
05-12-2009, 11:37 AM
I would hope that my photos with list of serial numbers would be enought to show ownership.
Maybe the photos should have me in the picture and a newspaper to show the date.

Following the actions you describe will prove possession. Possession is not ownership. If the items were earlier reported stolen, and you are not aware of it means the owner will have them returned to him. Unless there is contradictory information, you are assumed ownership. This is a fine point, but when something creates a mess, it will be a mess.

This is why you don't go telling everyone serial numbers for your firearms. There was a scam where some people offered firearms for sale and included the serial number for identifying information. Some one else saw it and reported the weapon with that serial number stolen. And unless you can clearly prove history, you might lose.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 11:38 AM
I would just do the voluntary registration for through the DOJ, pay the ninteen dollars, and be done with it.

Only I want to aviod "voluntering" away any of my furture rights when they decide I should no longer have those "weapons" and they have an easy shopping list of where to come and get them.

I would hope that even the Glock I purchased in 92' with a paper form from a company that is no longer in bussiness dose not have any tracable record at this point.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 11:42 AM
Following the actions you describe will prove possession. Possession is not ownership. If the items were earlier reported stolen, and you are not aware of it means the owner will have them returned to him. Unless there is contradictory information, you are assumed ownership. This is a fine point, but when something creates a mess, it will be a mess.

This is why you don't go telling everyone serial numbers for your firearms. There was a scam where some people offered firearms for sale and included the serial number for identifying information. Some one else saw it and reported the weapon with that serial number stolen. And unless you can clearly prove history, you might lose.

Yes, I do not want to share serial numbers even with the DOJ. Would be nice if there was a way to check serial numbers anonamasly. I would think that police records on this type of info should be public throught the freedom of information act.

bussda
05-12-2009, 11:54 AM
I would hope that even the Glock I purchased in 92' with a paper form from a company that is no longer in bussiness dose not have any tracable record at this point.

All FFL's keep the 4473 for 20 years. If they go out of business, they were turned over to the ATF (now BATFE). Were they warehoused, or entered into a computer system? There is much speculation, but I have no idea.

The DROS information was communicated to the DOJ, it is registered.

bussda
05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
Yes, I do not want to share serial numbers even with the DOJ. Would be nice if there was a way to check serial numbers anonamasly. I would think that police records on this type of info should be public throught the freedom of information act.

While I understand how you feel, there is too much information to go into the system, and not all of it is accurate. And then people would abuse it under the FOIA and public records act requests. If you trust the source of the weapons, then don't worry about it.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 12:02 PM
While I understand how you feel, there is too much information to go into the system, and not all of it is accurate. And then people would abuse it under the FOIA and public records act requests. If you trust the source of the weapons, then don't worry about it.

This is what I am doing for now, just wanted to know if was an automatic red flag but as evedenced here it is a very striped flag with no clear direction, I will continue to stay under the radar.

GuyW
05-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Where you might run into trouble is if you are charged with a CCW violation and you are carrying a gun that is not registered to you. It CAN become a felony.

fixed it.

GuyW
05-12-2009, 12:09 PM
Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered,


How embarrassing to incorrectly pull the "wrong" card in public...
.

GuyW
05-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Im not talking about a gun that you bought back in 1975 that isnt registered because that pre dates that whole registration thing,

You don't get tired of publicly embarrassing yourself?

CA had handgun registration long before 1975. Actually, 1923 jumps to my mind (correctly or not)...

GuyW
05-12-2009, 12:17 PM
All legally purchased handguns are AUTOMATICALLY registered... maybe that is where your confusion comes from, but regardless, it is confusion.


No, pre-1991 PPT handguns were/are legal and are not automatically registered.
.

Wizard99
05-12-2009, 12:46 PM
The handgun importer reporting requirement didn't go into effect until 1 Jan 1998. So if you moved into this state before 1 Jan 1998 you could have handguns that you aquired after 1991 and still not have been required to register them.

Sam1
05-12-2009, 1:29 PM
so you guys are saying if I build an AR pistol from an 80% receiver I don't have to register it? :ninja:

ke6guj
05-12-2009, 1:49 PM
there is no requirement in the PC that you register a homebuilt handgun.

bussda
05-12-2009, 2:01 PM
so you guys are saying if I build an AR pistol from an 80% receiver I don't have to register it? :ninja:

While there is no requirement to register it (That I am aware of), beware of the zip gun law. If registered, no big problem. If not registered, and you interact with law enforcement, depending on who you are dealing with, it can result in criminal and civil prosecution.

HowardW56
05-12-2009, 2:03 PM
My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way. We are well versed in using these firearms, just not up to speed on the rules. Nether one of us has an HSC but my wife used to be a range master 20+ years ago. They are all properly stored in our safe and secured when transported to and from a safe shooting area.
I would like to remain off any government controlled list but especially the guilty list. So if there are any problems how would one solve these issues now with several of these relatives being dead?


Thank you

Yes you are a criminal, you should meet me at the closest FFL to transfer them to me...

E Pluribus Unum
05-12-2009, 2:19 PM
No, pre-1991 PPT handguns were/are legal and are not automatically registered.
.

If you kept reading you will see that I am referring to CURRENT law. Currently all handgun purchases are automatically registered.

XJJack
05-12-2009, 2:57 PM
Yes you are a criminal, you should meet me at the closest FFL to transfer them to me...

Thank you, but not likely.

And don't worry I have bought 10 round capacity glock magizines to "replace" the origonals that I just can't seem to find.

HowardW56
05-12-2009, 4:15 PM
Thank you, but not likely.

And don't worry I have bought 10 round capacity glock magizines to "replace" the origonals that I just can't seem to find.


Oh well.... :D

MikeinnLA
05-12-2009, 4:42 PM
Yes you are. And, you are both right wing extremists.

Based on what Napolitano has said, I'm pretty sure you're a terrorist too.:eek:

Mike

CSACANNONEER
05-12-2009, 6:50 PM
I'm not going to read all the posts but, I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of, at least, TWO ways to legally own an unregistered handgun in CA. The first has been covered in detail, owning an unregistered handgun which you owned prior to 1991. The second way that I know of is to build one yourself! So, even if you just moved into the state, you can do a homebuild as long as you follow all local, state and federal laws!

TheBundo
05-12-2009, 9:59 PM
Now that you've given your opinion without the full facts as stated by the OP go back and read his ENTIRE post. Pay particular attention to the part where he states he hasn't bought or received ANY guns since 1992.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=22434&d=1241338153

That was in regard to guns bought, from stores, or individuals. He then continues: "then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way"

Whether or not he has an issue may be clouded by his own closely "guarded" language "over the years". That could be up until yesterday, technically.

leitung
05-13-2009, 1:28 AM
Wrong, In Ca all hand guns must be registered,

Handguns DO NOT "need" to be registered, but they are most often registered under any circumstance, I.E when they are new, imported, transferred between family.

jasilva
05-13-2009, 9:09 AM
That was in regard to guns bought, from stores, or individuals. He then continues: "then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way"

Whether or not he has an issue may be clouded by his own closely "guarded" language "over the years". That could be up until yesterday, technically.

Actually, no, he stated the most recent gun received was in 92.

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 11:34 AM
Actually, no, he stated the most recent gun received was in 92.Actually, he said the most recent purchase was in 92.

My wife and myself own several hand guns, shot guns and rifles some bought from stores, some from individuals, the newest of those was in 92 and that one did have paperwork done, then we have others that have been given to us from family members over the years, through other family members starting from out of state then to in state family members then to us with no paperwork along the way.He said he's been given firearms over the years, but did not indicate when that ended. The last part with paperless transfers happening with out-of-state residents would probably be a violation of federal law.

XJJack
05-13-2009, 12:30 PM
I guess people missed the responce that I clarified (as close as I can remember) when and how I got each one.

bussda
05-13-2009, 12:42 PM
I guess people missed the responce that I clarified (as close as I can remember) when and how I got each one.

Yes, some people chime in without reading the entire thread... :(

For those of you who missed it, he stated the last acquired was in 1992, all others were prior to 1991.

scc1909
05-13-2009, 1:21 PM
So, if my brother in Washington State "gives" me a Detonics Pocket 9mm when I go to visit him next month, I have 30 days from the day I return to California to register it, correct? TIA!

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 1:31 PM
So, if my brother in Washington State "gives" me a Detonics Pocket 9mm when I go to visit him next month, I have 30 days from the day I return to California to register it, correct? TIA!no, that would be a violation of federal law for your residents of different states to transfer a firearm without using an FFL in the recipient's state. There is no federal intrafamily transfer exemption, and the CADOJ intra-family/op-law form does not exempt you from the federal violation.

ke6guj
05-13-2009, 1:34 PM
I guess people missed the responce that I clarified (as close as I can remember) when and how I got each one.

Yes, some people chime in without reading the entire thread... :(

For those of you who missed it, he stated the last acquired was in 1992, all others were prior to 1991.

I saw the clarification post #37, but many of those just said "in the 90's" while another said "in the early 90's". So it is not clear if all the transactions happened pre-92 or not.

MudCamper
05-13-2009, 1:35 PM
So, if my brother in Washington State "gives" me a Detonics Pocket 9mm when I go to visit him next month, I have 30 days from the day I return to California to register it, correct? TIA!

You can not do this. Because he is out of state, the transfer must go through an FFL. He needs to ship it to a CA FFL. And if it's off-roster, you can't do it at all.

MudCamper
05-13-2009, 1:38 PM
All of this is covered quite well here:

How to live in California and buy a gun, part 1 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1031661&postcount=15)
How to live in California and buy a gun, part 2 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1031665&postcount=16)

(Thanks Librarian!)

scc1909
05-13-2009, 1:40 PM
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to forgo getting the Detonics.

jasilva
05-13-2009, 2:27 PM
Easier to mention to your LEO buddy that he should buy and try a Detonics, then when he doesn't like it you can be a good sport and take it off his hands for what he paid for it.:thumbsup: