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grymster
05-11-2009, 2:45 PM
She bought one some time back and it seems to be too big and bulky and the DA trigger pull seems too much for it to serve as a good home defense weapon for her.

I think I’ve talked her and her husband into getting something a bit easier for her to handle. They both like the idea of another, smaller revolver, but when I mention a 38 Special, son-in-law says for variety’s sake he’d like something in a different caliber. Not that they won't go with a 38, but want to know what might be some good alternatives.

So what choices might they have in a smaller, easy to handle revolver that:

Is not in 38 special
Is priced right for son-in-law; a Scots accountant (this kid irons his money :))
Is readily available

loosewreck
05-11-2009, 3:08 PM
If it doesn't have to be a revolver they can try the Smith & Wesson M&P line of autos.

If revolver is a must, I would suggest a J or K framed Smith. Also the Ruger SP101 comes to mind, but it will also have a heavy out of the box trigger pull, which normally could be lightened up w/ a spring kit, but since its going be for HD I wouldn't suggest it.

MustangO4
05-11-2009, 3:12 PM
I saw the thread title and my first thought was, "No way, they are only getting about $500 on gunbroker. Sounds like a bad trade. Unless there is a holster or some ammo in the deal, I'd pass"

Sorry, I have added nothing to this thread.

Kelvrick
05-11-2009, 3:16 PM
Shotgun (mossberg 500/590 or remington 870)?

Does it have to be a pistol? How about a full-sized steel 1911?

Traditional big players (sig 226/229, glock 17/19, hk usp)

grymster
05-11-2009, 3:18 PM
Sorry, I have added nothing to this thread. Maybe your bump will help! :)

If it doesn't have to be a revolver For the moment, they both like the idea of a revolver.

Colt Jackson
05-11-2009, 3:21 PM
If it is for HD only,what about a Mossberg 500 pistol grip cruiser in a .410 using 00 buckshot? If it is dark just point and shoot, yer gonna hit sumpin.

grymster
05-11-2009, 3:31 PM
If it is for HD only,what about a Mossberg 500 pistol grip cruiser in a .410 using 00 buckshot? I said revolver!

If it is dark just point and shoot, yer gonna hit sumpin. Yeah, but not likely to hit what you want to hit. Still gotta aim a shotgun.

Brooke
05-11-2009, 3:35 PM
for variety’s sake he’d like something in a different caliber.

IMO, I'd go for *similarity* in caliber. No ammo screw-ups.


So what choices might they have in a smaller, easy to handle revolver that:
[LIST=1]
Is not in 38 special

I didn't know there were 9mm revolvers out there ...

There's a S&W 547:
http://www.vintagepistols.com/range_report_S&W_547.html

Here's a thread on the S&W 940:
http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/51141-s-w-940-a.html

Looks like Ruger chambered the security Six in 9mm:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg210-e.htm

Ruger SP 101:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224407

roc
05-11-2009, 3:37 PM
man, you will be hard pressed to find a revolver thats readily available, smaller than a 357 thats not a 38 special. Course there are other calibers in revolvers but the readily available and affordable requirements kind of kill those options. especially in today's environment.

I will go on the record and say what they are looking for does not exist. For good reason because 38 special revolvers already fill the gap.

djslik
05-11-2009, 3:39 PM
You could also try the spring kit upgrade which really lightens up the double action pull. My girlfriend has the same revolver for home defense and she loads up 38 specials in there. The trigger is actually really good with the upgraded spring kit and if you have the stock grips with the wood inserts they seem to be pretty thin. Just an idea so you wouldn't have to buy a new gun. Some people say that in a panic situation the trigger pull seems much lighter than they remember even on heavy pull triggers due to adrenaline.

Colt Jackson
05-11-2009, 3:39 PM
S&W 442 air weight in a .38. Your search is over.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
05-11-2009, 3:43 PM
You could get a .32 But most DA Revolvers have a heavy trigger. Gunsmith to lighten trigger.

SNEAKS
05-11-2009, 3:52 PM
I would look at the Ruger SP101 327mag. Its a smaller frame with a 3" barrel and still holds 6 rounds. Ammo would be a bit hard to find right now though.

roc
05-11-2009, 3:55 PM
seems to me also that the issue with your daughter's preference is not necessarily the caliber but rather the frame and trigger. I would agree with one of the other poster that the SW J frame would be a good way to go. They make an alloy frame (AirLite series) that is light weight and nearly as strong as the tradtional steel frames.

If it wasnt for HD I would say to go with a 22 Win Mag Rimfire like the S&W 351PD. I dont think too many people will vouch for using a rimfire round for HD but i suppose its better than nothing.

Vin496
05-11-2009, 3:55 PM
I'll regurgitate the SP101 recommendation. A smaller framed Gp100 for the most part.

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 4:05 PM
S&W 442 air weight in a .38. Your search is over.

Give a listen to this podcast... It's an open-group discussion (including a couple of women) regarding Snubby revolvers... mostly about the S&W J Frame snubbys.
The women in the group STRONGLY advise against a snubby for other women (it hurts!).

The podcast recommends Federal's (re-released) 125 grain Nyclad's as the softest shooting, most effective .38 spl, standard pressure round
for Self Defence in the Airweights.

http://proarms.podbean.com/200...y%e2%80%9d-revolver/



Hmmmm... Something different, huh?

Would .22MAG be grossly insufficient for HD? What about the S&W J Frame 351PD ??? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591506/

elSquid
05-11-2009, 4:08 PM
I'd be tempted to say 4inch S&W Model 10, but that's a 38. There are billions and billions of them out there, though. Should be able to score a deal on a used one.

Model 13/65 instead, if it just has to be a 357?

A 4 inch K frame is pretty user friendly.

-- Michael

5hundo
05-11-2009, 4:09 PM
No, I don't think it's too much. My girlfriend has a S&W 686 that she has chosen over a myriad of autoloaders...

A .357 shooting .38 Specials is a great weapon for a smaller person, or someone new to shooting...

walter
05-11-2009, 4:14 PM
smith and wesson 686 or glock 17.

I said revolver!

Yeah, but not likely to hit what you want to hit. Still gotta aim a shotgun.

not true. just point a shotgun in the general direction and let off some 00 buck shot. i pretty much guarantee that even if you dont hit that SOB will **** himself and run off. trust me i just came back from the range and it was the first time i shot a shotgun and all i gotta say is that if you shot an intruder you would be pretty mad because his guts will be all over your house

rivviepop
05-11-2009, 4:14 PM
Can you clarify what "took big and bulky" means a little more? Does it mean:

- grip is too big, can't get hand around
- too heavy at barrel, can't keep nose up
- overall too heavy, can't hold in air
- too wide or too long, can't stuff in pocket

As far as calibers, you're going to be 38/357 - you won't find a 9mm (if you do count your blessings) and there's no other real caliber. You can get 38 loads that are wimpy up to loads that are +P+ and hurt when you shoot 'em. You could go to a 45ACP however, but it's not a light shooting round in a small revolver.

Revolvers come in a million sizes and weights, help narrow down exactly what's wrong. If the DA pull is a problem on a GP100 then don't listen to folks who tell you to get something like a S&W 442, the DA pull is hard and you won't hit the broad side of a barn with it if you can't handle a GP100.

leitung
05-11-2009, 5:32 PM
Try getting her an auto, that double action trigger pull on those revolvers can really be a turn off for some women with weaker hands.
The women I teach to shoot really like my 1911 and Glocks for the easy trigger pull. They can remain accurate.

Greg-Dawg
05-11-2009, 5:38 PM
Have her go to a range that rents out different pistols and decide from there.

Try before you buy.

Demophilus
05-11-2009, 5:54 PM
+1 on the Ruger SP101; it's basically a small GP100. Apart from that, they might want to look at the Smith & Wesson Model 60, with the 3" barrel; there are a few on the CA DOJ list. I'd recommend the 60-15; it's a tack driver.

bongfoo
05-11-2009, 6:00 PM
i am going to recommend my go to gun. don't get me wrong here, if it has to be a revolver i just got a 686 and i love it. but my primary home defense pistol for both me and my wife is a glock17 with a ghost inc 3.5 rocket connector. that thing is smooth as butter and reliable! over 2500 rounds down the pipe and not a single problem.

zrock
05-11-2009, 6:13 PM
Try a S&W m15 4 inch. Lapd trianed a lot of female ofcrs to shoot with the 15.Plus the model only costs about two hundered dollars used at a gun show.

Or try a G19/17/34. S&W mp with the small grips.

Lots of choices

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 8:36 PM
i am going to recommend my go to gun. don't get me wrong here, if it has to be a revolver i just got a 686 and i love it. but my primary home defense pistol for both me and my wife is a glock17 with a ghost inc 3.5 rocket connector. that thing is smooth as butter and reliable! over 2500 rounds down the pipe and not a single problem.

Bongfoo, I'm sure you are aware of this... but others may not:

You should expect that if you are involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, but the prosecutor decides to persecute (pun intended), he is going to look for anything he might be able to use to fool a jury and hang you. Likewise, when (not if) you are sued civilly by the perpetrator or his next-of-kin, they will try to seize on any modifications you may have made, especially Legally Liable modifications.

These would include triggers under 4.5 lbs. The prosecutor/litigator will be able to produce reams of documentation from nationally known gunsmiths (e.g. Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak) and nationally known firearms trainers (e.g. Ayoob) that triggers that are lighter than this are unsuitable for a carry, duty, or self-defense gun.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Guns-Firearms-Projectile-1501/gun-modification.htm

CSDGuy
05-11-2009, 9:05 PM
Bongfoo, I'm sure you are aware of this... but others may not:

You should expect that if you are involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, but the prosecutor decides to persecute (pun intended), he is going to look for anything he might be able to use to fool a jury and hang you. Likewise, when (not if) you are sued civilly by the perpetrator or his next-of-kin, they will try to seize on any modifications you may have made, especially Legally Liable modifications.

These would include triggers under 4.5 lbs. The prosecutor/litigator will be able to produce reams of documentation from nationally known gunsmiths (e.g. Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak) and nationally known firearms trainers (e.g. Ayoob) that triggers that are lighter than this are unsuitable for a carry, duty, or self-defense gun.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Guns-Firearms-Projectile-1501/gun-modification.htm
If the shoot is "good", none of that stuff really matters, in the criminal case. Where you MIGHT run into problems would be the civil trial...

Frostbite
05-11-2009, 9:06 PM
Bongfoo, I'm sure you are aware of this... but others may not:

You should expect that if you are involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, but the prosecutor decides to persecute (pun intended), he is going to look for anything he might be able to use to fool a jury and hang you. Likewise, when (not if) you are sued civilly by the perpetrator or his next-of-kin, they will try to seize on any modifications you may have made, especially Legally Liable modifications.

These would include triggers under 4.5 lbs. The prosecutor/litigator will be able to produce reams of documentation from nationally known gunsmiths (e.g. Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak) and nationally known firearms trainers (e.g. Ayoob) that triggers that are lighter than this are unsuitable for a carry, duty, or self-defense gun.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Guns-Firearms-Projectile-1501/gun-modification.htm

To further elaborate on this point, it's worth mentioning that if the prosecutor/plaintiff can prove (fabricate, imply...choose your verb) that the discharge of your gun in a self defense situation was anything but willful and deliberate, you run the risk of being held criminally and civilly liable. A negligent/accidental/unintentional discharge in an otherwise righteous self defense shooting, may not be considered justifiable homocide. The fact that it was "unintentional" can be grounds to nullify your defense, even if you ordinarily would've had every cause to shoot them.

Furthermore, most homeowners' policies will not pay out for willful and deliberate acts. Attornies know this and will try to prove that you discharging your gun was unintentional. Any trigger pull that is modified to less than a manufacturer's specification will be called in to question.

Incidentally, Glock has stated that the 3.5/4.5 pound connector is not intended to be used for a duty/defensive firearm. Their intent with that product is for match pistols only.

Frostbite
05-11-2009, 9:07 PM
If the shoot is "good", none of that stuff really matters, in the criminal case. Where you MIGHT run into problems would be the civil trial...

If you call jail time, lawyer costs and potential loss of job and family not important, then I am going to have to respectfully disagree.

Vin496
05-11-2009, 9:15 PM
To further elaborate on this point, it's worth mentioning that if the prosecutor/plaintiff can prove (fabricate, imply...choose your verb) that the discharge of your gun in a self defense situation was anything but willful and deliberate, you run the risk of being held criminally and civilly liable. A negligent/accidental/unintentional discharge in an otherwise righteous self defense shooting, may not be considered justifiable homocide. The fact that it was "unintentional" can be grounds to nullify your defense, even if you ordinarily would've had every cause to shoot them.

Furthermore, most homeowners' policies will not pay out for willful and deliberate acts. Attornies know this and will try to prove that you discharging your gun was unintentional. Any trigger pull that is modified to less than a manufacturer's specification will be called in to question.

Incidentally, Glock has stated that the 3.5/4.5 pound connector is not intended to be used for a duty/defensive firearm. Their intent with that product is for match pistols only.


I'm curious, people always make these statements, or if you use certain ammo, you'll have problems.

Is this really true? Are there actual cases where reloads/HP bullets/triggers have actually been used against an individual?

Or is the gun owner urban legend stuff?


EDIT--

I'm not bashing anyone passing this info along, as I have myself on occasion. I'm just wondering if there is truth to it.

Frostbite
05-11-2009, 9:20 PM
I'm curious, people always make these statements, or if you use certain ammo, you'll have problems.

Is this really true? Are there actual cases where reloads/HP bullets/triggers have actually been used against an individual?

Or is the gun owner urban legend stuff?

I have no clue about reloads. I was only speaking about extremely light, out of manufacturer's spec, trigger pulls. My personal feeling about reloads is that, like anything else, a DA interested in furthering his political career, or an unscrupulous attorney, will glom on to whatever they can to win their case, even if a reasonable person would consider the shooting justified. I'm not personally willing to take that kind of risk, no matter how unlikely it is.

As far as the hair trigger issue, there have been cases where the use of single action versus double action was called into question. Massad Ayoob, in a recent podcast, recounted two instances of officer involved shootings with double/single revolvers and an armed citizen shooting with the same type of gun. He anecdotally mentioned that there have been a few instances of attorneys using the same argument with DA/SA Sig P226s. That podcast can be heard here: http://proarms.podbean.com/mf/web/pvij/022.mp3

I don't claim to be an expert but Mas does and I tend to value his and his contemporaries' advice. Whether you agree with him or not, it certainly creates some food for thought. And I think we can all agree that, especially in a gun unfriendly state like California, it's best not to give the antis enough rope to hang you with.

As an aside, my apologies to the mods for helping drag this thread way off topic. Perhaps this is better discussed in the 2A forum.

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 10:10 PM
"... And I think we can all agree that, especially in a gun unfriendly state like California, that it's best not to give the antis enough rope to hang you with..."


Amen, brother.

Vacaville
05-11-2009, 10:22 PM
I would look at the Ruger SP101 327mag. Its a smaller frame with a 3" barrel and still holds 6 rounds. Ammo would be a bit hard to find right now though.

SP101 is a good choice in this case. .327 mag might be hard to find but you can also run .32 S&W, .32 S&W long, and .32 H&R through it. That's a lot of versatility and the choices cover a range of pretty wimpy (.32 S&W) to better than .38 Spl (.327 mag).

Other than that, I think the next step down is .22 magnum, and S&W, Taurus, and Ruger all make revolvers chambered for it.

grymster
05-12-2009, 8:17 AM
There are some good responses here and they may help my daughter move forward. Thanks.

I always laugh at how these threads go. Regardless how specific a question one asks, you're always gonna get some:

git a shotguuuun
go with a Sig
yur n' idiot
get a Glock
I'm n' idiot
can't use that ammo
he's n' idiot
it's the only ammo you can use
get a Casull with a 1/2 oz trigger
put a pistol grip on a Mosin
I told you he's n' idiot
50 BMG dude!
get a Glock
I use hand grenades
just rack the shotgun slide....
ad infinitum....
:D

Frostbite
05-12-2009, 8:46 AM
Since, I didn't actually address the GP-100 issue, here's my $.02. A SP-101 or one of the steel J-frames mentioned above is a great alternative. I'd stay away from smaller and lighter than that because as Nikki mentioned, J-frame airweight or scandium Smiths can bite after a few shots, which would make your daughter less likely to want to shoot it. That's assuming it absolutely HAS to be a revolver. If you can talk to them into an automatic, a Kahr K9 or MK9 still will have a DA trigger and the all metal frame will help with the felt recoil.

pullnshoot25
05-12-2009, 8:53 AM
Anyone thought of a Taurus Tracker .357? 4" barrel, 7 shots, 28oz...

I love Taurus!

Vin496
05-12-2009, 9:12 AM
Anyone thought of a Taurus Tracker .357? 4" barrel, 7 shots, 28oz...

I stalk Taurus!

There fixed it for you.:thumbsup:

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 9:33 AM
1) get a trigger job - (not just lighter springs, but a REAL trigger job keeping decent weight springs)

2) try having her practice with it (oh my god - I know - what a concept!), and run .38s through it.

I hear(and see) these complaints all the time.

"its heavy" - well yeah - you are holding a piece of metal out in from you - how often do you do that? Do those muscles ever get exercised other than for this?

"the trigger is too heavy" well, fire it single action UNTIL you get the strength built up to handle the DA trigger pull. Get one of the little grip exercisers and work on the grip for a month or so - you'll be amazed at how much easier the trigger pull is.



These are real guns - if you aren't willing to put in a little time and effort learning to shoot it decently, and building up the muscles necessary to shoot it, then you need to go a different self defense route. Sure she could do a scandium framed - it will be light enough, but she will never shoot it, because "it hurts". Or go super light springs - and face law suits, but more importantly, if she isn't willing to practice face more likely accidental discharges.

Also always hear what you describe - "but I want a pistol, not a shotgun (or pepper spray or whatever)" then it is going to take some work and effort on your part to be able to shoot one. its as simple as that. These aren't toys or video game pistols, they are real - either respect them and build up what you need to use them, or quit whining. Like everything in life, there aren't quick and easy shortcuts for important things.

Rule .308
05-12-2009, 9:37 AM
I have an SP-101 in .32 H&R mag, I have to agree with the guys that recommend the same in 327 for all the reasons they pointed out. All 3 of my kids and a few nieces all grew up shooting a stainless GP100 with light .38 loads, great pistol.

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 9:39 AM
I have an SP-101 in .32 H&R mag, I have to agree with the guys that recommend the same in 327 for all the reasons they pointed out. All 3 of my kids and a few nieces all grew up shooting a stainless GP100 with light .38 loads, great pistol.

Yep - Have the .32 H&R for my wife - and she loves it, but she still had to work on the muscles to hold it, and finger strength to work what is essentially the same trigger as the GPs!

scc1909
05-12-2009, 9:49 AM
Lot's of good recommendations for specific revolvers here, but I am curious about the "no .38s need apply" thingie. You note that she finds it "too big and bulky and the DA trigger pull seems too much". I'm going to go way out on a limb here and guess that she is already intimidated by the GP100 with .38Sp.

My recommendation is that if you can successfully address that issue, finding the right pistol will be a snap. Borrow/rent a .22LR small frame revolver and have her try that. If her eyes light up, you've broken the code, and now just need to find the right combo of model and price. The weapon she is confident with is the weapon she'll be able to use when the need arises.

FWIW, my wife and 7-year old son loved to shoot my Walther PPK in 9mm Short, but they wouldn't touch my full frame .38SP revolver.

Hope that helps.

Vacaville
05-12-2009, 9:56 AM
My wife doesn't like to shoot my Blackhawk with the 6 1/2" barrel because she thinks it's too heavy; doesn't like to shoot my Taurus 85 snubbie in .38 because of the recoil. She ends up shooting my Ruger Mark II .22 all the time.

grymster
05-12-2009, 10:20 AM
I always laugh at how these threads go. Regardless how specific a question one asks, you're always gonna get some:

git a shotguuuun
go with a Sig
yur n' idiot
get a Glock
I'm n' idiot
can't use that ammo
he's n' idiot
it's the only ammo you can use
get a Casull with a 1/2 oz trigger
put a pistol grip on a Mosin
I told you he's n' idiot
50 BMG dude!
get a Glock
I use hand grenades
just rack the shotgun slide....
ad infinitum....

Forgot one.... These aren't toys or video game pistols, they are real - either respect them and build up what you need to use them, or quit whining.

scc1909
05-12-2009, 10:24 AM
Good point, Vacaville. My wife watched me shooting my uncle's Detonics Pocket 9mm and said No Thanks! I'm 5'10 and 200 lbs, while she is 5'6" and just over 100 lbs, with small hands, and that much monkey-motion convinced her that she didn't want anything to do with a small-frame 9mm.

The 22lr is a sweet combination. For an idea of their potential watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmW0XTJh4Vw). Yes, I know the video shows a different caliber, but next time you go to the range, take and orange an shoot it with a 22lr hollow-point. :43:

rivviepop
05-12-2009, 10:27 AM
SP101 is a good choice in this case. .327 mag might be hard to find but you can also run .32 S&W, .32 S&W long, and .32 H&R through it. That's a lot of versatility and the choices cover a range of pretty wimpy (.32 S&W) to better than .38 Spl (.327 mag).

Hey I didn't know that about 327mag -- what sort of tradeoffs are made when shooting the other rounds, do you lose accuracy? (I'm not up to speed on all the bullet diameters of these rounds, case lengths and so on). Do you get massive chamber fouling?

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 10:57 AM
Hey I didn't know that about 327mag -- what sort of tradeoffs are made when shooting the other rounds, do you lose accuracy? (I'm not up to speed on all the bullet diameters of these rounds, case lengths and so on). Do you get massive chamber fouling?

Bullet diameter is the same - its like the 38/.357 - the case lengths (and powder capacity) are the difference. And these aren't target pistols in the first place! ;-)

327 Mag is a hot rodded 32 H&R mag. and you can get .38SPL energy levels out of it but with a lighter bullet - so they feel lighter than the 38. Plus - you get to keep 6 rounds in a small frame as opposed to 5 if you go .38.

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 10:59 AM
Forgot one....

True - there is always some good advice mixed in - thanks for pointing it out!


Or were you more pointing out that the "buy it, load it and forget about it" tactic is valid?

puropuro
05-12-2009, 11:25 AM
For my wife, I love my S&W 66 4" (K-frame).....perfect balance, and it's a lamb with .38sp ammo, and has the option of .357 rounds. Throw a nice hogue grip on there and everyone's happy.

Edit: crap, just noticed you didn't want .38sp. Seriously, it's a fine round for your scenario, especially in a revolver.

grymster
05-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Or were you more pointing out that the "buy it, load it and forget about it" tactic is valid? There's another way? :)

Hey, I appreciate all the advice.... and have fairly thick skin too. :)

pullnshoot25
05-12-2009, 1:50 PM
There fixed it for you.:thumbsup:

COME ON! :)

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 8:39 PM
There's another way? :)

Hey, I appreciate all the advice.... and have fairly thick skin too. :)

best way to make it in life!


and when you talk about "work out" and arm muscle tone, and calories burnt, you tend to then get a better response than if you go firearms training logic...

no woman likes flabby arms, and shooting is a great way to keep those arms in shape, and as a side effect, be a better shooter as well!

and holding a pistol out there and shooting is a heluva lot more fun than holding 3 pound dumb bells.
its all in the spin...

richarab
05-12-2009, 9:42 PM
I love my GP-100.. Talk about a beautiful gun