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View Full Version : Att LE members! Deputy shoots kid with toy gun! What's your take?


laguns
05-11-2009, 9:16 AM
PALMDALE, Calif. (AP) — Authorities say a 15-year-old boy who was shot while playing with a toy gun pointed the fake weapon at sheriff's deputies.

Los Angeles County sheriff's Deputy Jeff Gordon says the boy was hospitalized in stable condition Monday and was expected to fully recover. His name was not released.

Gordon says authorities received reports of someone on a bicycle brandishing a handgun Sunday in Palmdale, north of Los Angeles. He says deputies spotted the rider and ordered him to drop the weapon, but that the boy pointed it at them instead. A deputy then shot the boy.

Gordon says the gun resembled a black semiautomatic pistol and lacked the orange tip found on most toys to distinguish them from real weapons.


Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

Just so there are no misunderstandings, I have the highest respect for the LA County Sheriff department, in fact I specifically opened LA Guns in their jurisdiction because of the security and professionalism I felt they would provide. The dozens of Deputies and Detectives I have dealt with over the years have confirmed that I made the right decision.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Untamed1972
05-11-2009, 9:20 AM
If one decided to UOC or LOC, do you think painting the tip the gun orange would keep the COPs from hassling you?

tgriffin
05-11-2009, 9:21 AM
If one decided to UOC or LOC, do you think painting the tip the gun orange would keep the COPs from hassling you?

Nope, and you would be committing a crime to boot... orange is a verboten color on any functioning firearm in California.

Untamed1972
05-11-2009, 9:25 AM
Nope, and you would be committing a crime to boot... orange is a verboten color on any functioning firearm in California.

Ok...fine then paint it blue so it looks like one those training pistols. :thumbsup:

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 9:27 AM
Authorities say a 15-year-old boy who was shot while playing with a toy gun pointed the fake weapon at sheriff's deputies.

I'm not a LEO, but...

What else could the guy have done in that situation? 15 is easily old enough for someone to be a gang member and experienced criminal. The Columbine shooters were about that age when they killed a dozen (?) people. The deputy did the right thing. He had to treat the situation as if he were facing a real gun, because there's no way he can determine in a split second, at a glance, if the gun is real or not.

(Note that I'm assuming this was a somewhat realistic gun, not one of the fluorescent-colored outlandish toy things. The article says it was realistic-looking and didn't have an orange tip.)

Corbin Dallas
05-11-2009, 9:29 AM
Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349


Round 1---

Young man points gun at cop...

Cop: Oh, sorry SON, didn't know you were PLAYING cops and robbers, MY MISTAKE

Kid: BANG! BANG!! Punk COP!!!! IT's REAL... MUAHAHAHAHAHA

Liberal Media: Cop dead in blah blah blah... suspect on the run... blah blah blah...

Society: Bummer, but that's his job...


----------------------------------------


Round 2---

Young man points gun at cop...

Cop: Put the weapon down!!!

Kid: Whaaa??

Cop: BANG BANG!!!

Kid: Ughh......

Liberal Media: Cop kills 15Y/O kid with toy gun

Society: WHY!!!! oh WHY!!!!! Shoulda, coulda, woulda, blah blah blah...

WIFE of COP: OH Hunny I'm SO Glad you're home!!!!
Kids of COP: DADDY DADDY DADDY!!!! YEA DADDYS HOME!!!!!





Why are we having this conversation again? Oh right, because society needs protection from itself.

How many "ORANGE" tips do YOU see.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n218/liquidflorian/motivator_airsoft.jpg?t=1242059450

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 9:30 AM
My first question is: Isnt a 15 year old a little old to be playing "Cops and Robbers?"

My second question is: "Isnt a 15 year old, old enough to know not to point a gun, toy or not, at a cop?"

Third: A 15 year old is plently old enough to have a REAL gun and old enough to commit REAL crimes.

The problem is, that CRIMINALS are now painting the tips of their guns orange. Ive seen an AR15 that was confiscated from a local gang... Tip painted dayglo orange.

So the police are right back where they started. If somebody points a gun at you, orange tip or no orange tip, if the cop wants to go home at night, hes got to defend himself.

GTXR390
05-11-2009, 9:32 AM
If one decided to UOC or LOC, do you think painting the tip the gun orange would keep the COPs from hassling you?

NO, they will still hassle you.

Matt C
05-11-2009, 9:35 AM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

nick
05-11-2009, 9:36 AM
How many "ORANGE" tips do YOU see.


Two :)

nick
05-11-2009, 9:39 AM
My first question is: Isnt a 15 year old a little old to be playing "Cops and Robbers?"

My second question is: "Isnt a 15 year old, old enough to know not to point a gun, toy or not, at a cop?"

Third: A 15 year old is plently old enough to have a REAL gun and old enough to commit REAL crimes.

I was thinking the same thing. When at first they said it was a 7y.o. I thought the cop was, well, overzealous. Now it turns out the "boy" was 15, and it makes much more sense. However, how many of the people who read the initial article read the follow-up?

Untamed1972
05-11-2009, 9:41 AM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

This is just another one of those examples of where society needs to start demanding personal responsibility from it's citizens. If you do something stupid that brings consequences upon you....OH WELL.....you'll know better next time. If you end up dead because of it....then society no longer needs to worry about you passing you "stupid genes" onto someone else.

It's like natural selection. Our society has become overrun with stupid people because society goes out of it's way to pander to and protect them. A couple hundred years ago stupid people usually didn't live very long, hence they didn't reproduce that often....they usually did something stupid and got themselves dead fairly early on before they could make more stupid people.

slowjonn
05-11-2009, 9:49 AM
I was a little disappointed to see the media call the 15yr old "the victim". The real victim here is the cop. He will second guess this shooting forever. At least the kid will live. The kid is anything but a victim. 1+ to society needing more accountability for their actions.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 9:53 AM
How many "ORANGE" tips do YOU see.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n218/liquidflorian/motivator_airsoft.jpg?t=1242059450

Im going to get flamed for this.... BUT THAT should be illegal.... They should NOT be making "Toy" guns that look that realistic. Its an accident waiting to happen.

Any one of those gets pointed any where near me, and my CCW gun is coming out.... If you dont drop it fast enough, Im unloading the gun into your sternum.

If we're going to be expanding the rights of CCW and public self defense, we may have to accept some responsibility that we need to make ACCIDENTAL use of those rights less likely by not making toy guns look so real... I dont want to second guess myself as hesitation can mean death in a uof situation. But now seeing that picture I dont know how I couldnt...

SkyStorm82
05-11-2009, 9:59 AM
I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

Why point fingers at police training? From the looks of it, the dep did a good job. He had a gun pointed at him, he fired and struck the person in the chest. Where's the problem?

hill billy
05-11-2009, 10:00 AM
That area where the kid got shot is one of the worst in town. I feel badly for the cop that he will have to live with this but no way did the kid not deserve it. I have ridden through that area on patrol, kids will throw rocks at the car but you cannot stop because often the rocks are a setup for an ambush.

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Im going to get flamed for this.... BUT THAT should be illegal.... They should NOT be making "Toy" guns that look that realistic. Its an accident waiting to happen.

I agree, it's totally crazy to have those things around. It's an accident waiting to happen, as was in this case. And I don't see that airsofts would have any 2A protection.

It's tragically stupid for the children who have these things and end up getting shot. It's tragically tragic for the LEO / CCWer who made the right decision to shoot, but then has to live with the knowledge that he shot an unarmed child when the facts are found out. Even though the shooter is morally and legally blameless in such a situation, he will still be tormented by knowing he shot a child.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 10:06 AM
I agree, it's totally crazy to have those things around. It's an accident waiting to happen, as was in this case. And I don't see that airsofts would have any 2A protection.

It's tragically stupid for the children who have these things and end up getting shot. It's tragically tragic for the LEO / CCWer who made the right decision to shoot, but then has to live with the knowledge that he shot an unarmed child when the facts are found out. Even though the shooter is morally and legally blameless in such a situation, he will still be tormented by knowing he shot a child.

I literally had no idea things like that existed until a few minutes ago..... This thread scares the crap out of me.

HowardW56
05-11-2009, 10:07 AM
Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349


There was a Stanton Police officer that shot and killed a young boy that pointed a toy gun at him...

You can't question his actions, if in fact a real looking replica gun was pointed at him, but the officer/deputy may no longer be able to do police work and will bear the emotional scars for the rest of his life...

laguns
05-11-2009, 10:08 AM
That area where the kid got shot is one of the worst in town. I feel badly for the cop that he will have to live with this but no way did the kid not deserve it. I have ridden through that area on patrol, kids will throw rocks at the car but you cannot stop because often the rocks are a setup for an ambush.


Good point HB

bwiese
05-11-2009, 10:12 AM
As much as I bash cops for certain activities here I don't see any bad behavior here.

Stupid kid may or may not have had 'orange tip' on his toy guy, and cop's trained instant reaction is "gun = shoot".

If I myself were presented with the same situation, the kid would've been ventilated too.

nick
05-11-2009, 10:16 AM
This is just another one of those examples of where society needs to start demanding personal responsibility from it's citizens. If you do something stupid that brings consequences upon you....OH WELL.....you'll know better next time. If you end up dead because of it....then society no longer needs to worry about you passing you "stupid genes" onto someone else.

It's like natural selection. Our society has become overrun with stupid people because society goes out of it's way to pander to and protect them. A couple hundred years ago stupid people usually didn't live very long, hence they didn't reproduce that often....they usually did something stupid and got themselves dead fairly early on before they could make more stupid people.

And armed society is a polite society, one reason being natural selection :)

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 10:16 AM
I literally had no idea things like that existed until a few minutes ago..... This thread scares the crap out of me.

They came from parts of Asia (Japan, Taiwan) where real guns just aren't in circulation and there's almost no crime, so it doesn't present an issue there. Here, where real guns are all over the place and 15 year olds can be full-fledged gang members, those "toys" don't make any sense. They do have some legitimate uses, for some training purposes. I read a couple of years ago about some guy from Japan who trained with an airsoft, and had never fired a gun before, and came here and won some kind of competition (IPSC ?) through his airsoft training. Also the small plastic pellets they shoot are harmless, so they can be used in force simulations. But that's an exceptional situation; 99.9% of the buyers of these things are probably children who shouldn't have them. And they're inherently dangerous because they are indistinguishable from real guns.

gcrtkd
05-11-2009, 10:17 AM
If it went down the way it reads then it was a good shoot. "Sad" outcome, but a clean shoot nonetheless. Totality of the circumstances and reasonable officer faced with the same set of facts and circumstances, not judged in hindsight, and all that.

nick
05-11-2009, 10:19 AM
They came from parts of Asia (Japan, Taiwan) where real guns just aren't in circulation and there's almost no crime, so it doesn't present an issue there. Here, where real guns are all over the place and 15 year olds can be full-fledged gang members, those "toys" don't make any sense. They do have some legitimate uses. I read a couple of years ago about some guy from Japan who trained with an airsoft, and had never fired a gun before, and came here and won some kind of competition (IPSC ?) through his airsoft training. But that's an exceptional situation; 99.9% of the buyers of these things are probably children who shouldn't have them.

I would double-check on crime in Japan. Not sure about Taiwan though.

valleyguy
05-11-2009, 10:22 AM
All of this, including the airsoft thing, begs the question -- should we have toy guns in a society where guns are legal? After all, as responsible gun owners, don't we have a vested interest in people following gun safety at all times?

By trivializing guns as toys, we send the wrong message to children and young adults who will (hopefully) someday become responsible gun owners, and let them develop bad habits, by playing around with guns, muzzle sweeping, pointing at their friends, etc. I myself will not let my kids have toy guns (when I have kids), but I will get them into shooting at a young age and teach them firearm safety and responsibility.

Guns are serious business. Why should we encourage anything that detracts from that? If people in the "disarmed" countries want to play weekend warrior, good for them, but we have the real thing here, and why should we teach our kids to be idiots?

hill billy
05-11-2009, 10:27 AM
All of this, including the airsoft thing, begs the question -- should we have toy guns in a society where guns are legal? After all, as responsible gun owners, don't we have a vested interest in people following gun safety at all times?

By trivializing guns as toys, we send the wrong message to children and young adults who will (hopefully) someday become responsible gun owners, and let them develop bad habits, by playing around with guns, muzzle sweeping, pointing at their friends, etc. I myself will not let my kids have toy guns (when I have kids), but I will get them into shooting at a young age and teach them firearm safety and responsibility.

Guns are serious business. Why should we encourage anything that detracts from that? If people in the "disarmed" countries want to play weekend warrior, good for them, but we have the real thing here, and why should we teach our kids to be idiots?

I am on the fence about this one. Currently, I do not let my kids have toy guns. If I did, they would have bright pink and red "ray guns" so hopefully no mistake would be made. When the chances arrive for my kids to play with toy guns at a friends house or whatever, I try to make sure that we have a talk about where we point guns and then we go over the safety rules. Maybe this is too much, maybe it isn't enough. I try to help my kids understand that guns are not toys and it only takes one time of not being careful and someone might not wake up.

Erik S. Klein
05-11-2009, 10:32 AM
As much as I bash cops for certain activities here I don't see any bad behavior here.

Stupid kid may or may not have had 'orange tip' on his toy guy, and cop's trained instant reaction is "gun = shoot".

If I myself were presented with the same situation, the kid would've been ventilated too.

Seconded. ;)

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 10:34 AM
I am on the fence about this one. Currently, I do not let my kids have toy guns. If I did, they would have bright pink and red "ray guns" so hopefully no mistake would be made. When the chances arrive for my kids to play with toy guns at a friends house or whatever, I try to make sure that we have a talk about where we point guns and then we go over the safety rules. Maybe this is too much, maybe it isn't enough. I try to help my kids understand that guns are not toys and it only takes one time of not being careful and someone might not wake up.
Yeah, Im fine with the see through plastic squirt guns and super-soaker type guns that are OBVIOUSLY not real guns.... Or toy ray guns with the lights and sounds and such.... And I had a daisy BB gun when I was a kid, but it LOOKED like a "BB gun".....

But anybody who gives their kid something that looks like the picture above and sends them out in the street is asking to go to a funeral rather than a graduation.

nick
05-11-2009, 10:35 AM
I see no problem with toy guns, as long as they don't look like the real thing, for the reasons just stated. Good luck not letting them have toy guns in the first place.They'll use sticks and anything else that resembles a gun.

By the way, how did we have toy guns before 1980's-1990's? Realistic-looking ones, too? The problem seems to be more societal than anything else.

CavTrooper
05-11-2009, 10:37 AM
I would think that most kids would know better than to point anything a cop, especially at 15, I would think kids to be pretty dang afraid of the police. Do we know for a fact that the kid pointed his weapon at the police or is that just the officers statement, were there witnesses to back up this claim? Also, do we know how many rounds were fired? Was it just the one round or were there multiple rounds fired? IMO, if you feel seriously threatend then you are gonna fire until the threat is eliminated, more than one round. I would think you would get a few rounds off before you realized the target has dropped.

HowardW56
05-11-2009, 10:40 AM
All of this, including the airsoft thing, begs the question -- should we have toy guns in a society where guns are legal? After all, as responsible gun owners, don't we have a vested interest in people following gun safety at all times?

By trivializing guns as toys, we send the wrong message to children and young adults who will (hopefully) someday become responsible gun owners, and let them develop bad habits, by playing around with guns, muzzle sweeping, pointing at their friends, etc. I myself will not let my kids have toy guns (when I have kids), but I will get them into shooting at a young age and teach them firearm safety and responsibility.

Guns are serious business. Why should we encourage anything that detracts from that? If people in the "disarmed" countries want to play weekend warrior, good for them, but we have the real thing here, and why should we teach our kids to be idiots?

I grew up playing with toy guns.... We knew toys were toys and real guns were real guns... Maybe there should be a statutory requirement for common sense..

PatriotnMore
05-11-2009, 10:41 AM
I am not going to voice an opinion on the incident. If I am going to take issue, its going to be with the training received by our LEO, and the mindset they are drilled to operate under.

I remember playing Solider, Cops and Robbers, Cowboy and Indian and every male kid on the block having a toy gun. Now, we are in discussions of whether we should have toy guns for children to play with, for fear of being shot by LEO, by mistake.

Anything, and everything having to do with guns, is under constant attack, and vilified at the State and County level. I don't know, I don't think our society is any more, or less violent, than at any other point and time in our history. The FBI numbers go slightly up and down, but there are no real big swings that I am aware of (correct me if I am wrong), so what has really changed?
IMHO, training, attitude, and expectation.

popeye4
05-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Go to this web page: http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Cop.htm

Scroll down to #74, "Test Yourself in a Dark Alley" (it comes up as "Why Cops Shoot" when you get to the article). Try it and see what you get.

QED.

BTW, my son and his buddies play airsoft (he's 13). The guns are extremely realistic. I'm pretty good with firearms identification, and if I'm more than an arm's length from them I can't tell the difference. I've had the stern discussion with him about pointing his guns at anyone, especially cops. He's also been around the real things for his entire life, so he's got an appreciation for what real guns can do. However, there are a lot of kids that don't get that talk from their (generally gun-ignorant) parents. However, only a dumb-*** points anything at a cop (see above).

I also think that if someone were wanting to "go postal" or gun down a cop, the first thing they'd do would be to paint the flash suppressor or muzzle of their gun orange. If I were a cop, I wouldn't bet my life on an orange muzzle being a toy......

nick
05-11-2009, 10:50 AM
Interesting article, thanks.

slowjonn
05-11-2009, 10:53 AM
I am not going to voice an opinion on the incident. If I am going to take issue, its going to be with the training received by our LEO, and the mindset they are drilled to operate under.

I remember playing Solider, Cops and Robbers, Cowboy and Indian and every male kid on the block having a toy gun. Now, we are in discussions of whether we should have toy guns for children to play with, for fear of being shot by LEO, by mistake.

Anything, and everything having to do with guns, is under constant attack, and vilified at the State and County level. I don't know, I don't think our society is any more, or less violent, than at any other point and time in our history. The FBI numbers go slightly up and down, but there are no real big swings that I am aware of (correct me if I am wrong), so what has really changed?
IMHO, training, attitude, and expectation.
I agree with everything you said, mostly. The only training, attitude and expectation that is lacking is on parents not instilling those things in their kids. I had toy guns when I was a kid too. But duh, common sense and parental training made it very clear not to point those things at others, ESPECIALLY COPS! Stop blaming police training and put the blame squarely where it belongs, on the parents and the dumb kid.

FS00008
05-11-2009, 10:53 AM
Good shoot IMHO.


now if it was an 6 year old... that'd be a problem.

Californio
05-11-2009, 10:56 AM
I was detained at age 8 by the Feds. We had climbed over the wire into the WLA VA property to play when a group parents were having a Kentucky Derby party.

I had an M1 Rifle, plastic, but it looked real except for the weight. one of the officers sure gave it an inspection. It looked as real as the airsoft guns of today but this was in the early 60's.

The VA property had some great wilderness property to play in and barbed wire fences to test our skills:)

Two Federal Squad Cars escorted 10 kids to the parents.

Learned early on if you have a realistic looking arm as a kid, it will make a LEO very nervous.

A 15 year-old playing cops and robbers is a scam, he was threatening and got shot for it.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 10:59 AM
I am not going to voice an opinion on the incident. If I am going to take issue, its going to be with the training received by our LEO, and the mindset they are drilled to operate under.

I remember playing Solider, Cops and Robbers, Cowboy and Indian and every male kid on the block having a toy gun. Now, we are in discussions of whether we should have toy guns for children to play with, for fear of being shot by LEO, by mistake.

Anything, and everything having to do with guns, is under constant attack, and vilified at the State and County level. I don't know, I don't think our society is any more, or less violent, than at any other point and time in our history. The FBI numbers go slightly up and down, but there are no real big swings that I am aware of (correct me if I am wrong), so what has really changed?
IMHO, training, attitude, and expectation.

Ill tell you what HAS changed.... And its a problem that faces the entire criminal justice system that was designed generations ago to deal with a DIFFERENT demographic of criminal than we have today.

"Criminals" have gotten YOUNGER.

The criminal justice system was designed to deal with offenders who were older. Children used to commit petty crimes- Shoplifting, vandalism, truency....

The "hardened" criminal, that society worried about because his propensity for violence was much more a threat was in his 30s or 40s.

My city's police operations manual states "Modern criminals have gotten younger and ultraviolent."

Now, its not at all unusual to come across heavily armed teens and preteens, and in fact, the failures of our criminal justice system to modernize with with the juvenilzation of violent crime has been exploited by criminal street gangs who actively recruit CHILDREN to do the worst crimes as they will face the lowest penalties.

So the cop in 1960's and 70's, when he was faced with a kid pointing a gun at him, he pretty much expected that the gun was a toy, because kids packing real guns (at least in suburban areas) was unheard of.... That same cop today, if hes stationed at an high school WILL confiscate many REAL guns brought to school over the course of a year. Now the rule is "the 15 year with the gun, the gun is probably real."

PatriotnMore
05-11-2009, 11:03 AM
Good points.
Do you have a site where they show the numbers, backing your points?

Ill tell you what HAS changed.... And its a problem that faces the entire criminal justice system that was designed generations ago to deal with a DIFFERENT demographic of criminal than we have today.

"Criminals" have gotten YOUNGER.

The criminal justice system was designed to deal with offenders who were older. Children used to commit petty crimes- Shoplifting, vandalism, truency....

The "hardened" criminal, that society worried about because his propensity for violence was much more a threat was in his 30s or 40s.

My city's police operations manual states "Modern criminals have gotten younger and ultraviolent."

Now, its not at all unusual to come across heavily armed teens and preteens, and in fact, the failures of our criminal justice system to modernize with with the juvenilzation of violent crime has been exploited by criminal street gangs who actively recruit CHILDREN to do the worst crimes as they will face the lowest penalties.

So the cop in 1960's and 70's, when he was faced with a kid pointing a gun at him, he pretty much expected that the gun was a toy, because kids packing real guns (at least in suburban areas) was unheard of.... That same cop today, if hes stationed at an high school WILL confiscate many REAL guns brought to school over the course of a year. Now the rule is "the 15 year with the gun, the gun is probably real."

ojisan
05-11-2009, 11:16 AM
Legitimate shoot.

I had a 14 year old pull out a real .25 auto on me one time.
Boy was I surprised!
Things have changed compared to the old days.

DParker
05-11-2009, 11:17 AM
This will bring a smile to your face regarding kids and guns....

Christmas Armaments (http://www.tonywoodlief.com/archives/001030.html)

Society sure isn't what it used to be....

Warhawk014
05-11-2009, 11:35 AM
Round 1---

Young man points gun at cop...

Cop: Oh, sorry SON, didn't know you were PLAYING cops and robbers, MY MISTAKE

Kid: BANG! BANG!! Punk COP!!!! IT's REAL... MUAHAHAHAHAHA

Liberal Media: Cop dead in blah blah blah... suspect on the run... blah blah blah...

Society: Bummer, but that's his job...


----------------------------------------


Round 2---

Young man points gun at cop...

Cop: Put the weapon down!!!

Kid: Whaaa??

Cop: BANG BANG!!!

Kid: Ughh......

Liberal Media: Cop kills 15Y/O kid with toy gun

Society: WHY!!!! oh WHY!!!!! Shoulda, coulda, woulda, blah blah blah...

WIFE of COP: OH Hunny I'm SO Glad you're home!!!!
Kids of COP: DADDY DADDY DADDY!!!! YEA DADDYS HOME!!!!!





Why are we having this conversation again? Oh right, because society needs protection from itself.

How many "ORANGE" tips do YOU see.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n218/liquidflorian/motivator_airsoft.jpg?t=1242059450



excellent example.

hkusp9c
05-11-2009, 11:47 AM
Aren't we all fairly well taught through a large numbers of actions movies and TV series NOT to point anything at LEOs? well I guess he doesn't watch movies or TV.

junker87
05-11-2009, 11:53 AM
I would double-check on crime in Japan. Not sure about Taiwan though.

You can safely walk around in Taipei at 3AM in the morning, yes, even if you are a woman.

It's something almost incomprehensible to most Americans who have never visited, there just isn't crime the kind that we are accustomed to in the U.S.

And no one has guns except the higher up bad guys. When you do get mugged, it's most likely some punk with a knife.

Same with Japan.

That's why you can buy these airsoft at their plastic model stores.

hill billy
05-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Ill tell you what HAS changed.... And its a problem that faces the entire criminal justice system that was designed generations ago to deal with a DIFFERENT demographic of criminal than we have today.

"Criminals" have gotten YOUNGER. AND more violent


Added something on, there.

eltee
05-11-2009, 12:07 PM
If one decided to UOC or LOC, do you think painting the tip the gun orange would keep the COPs from hassling you?

It's a "trick" that thugs sometimes use. Their logic is that it may cause a policeman to hesitate just enough to give them (badguy) a slight advantage. There are cases where badguys have painted their barrrels orange, added "Super Soaker" tanks and paintjobs to disguise them, placed real guns inside NERF guns or Super Soakers, etc.

Please don't, as a law abiding gun owner, try it.

In other circumstances people have knowingly pulled / pointed toy guns at cops in order to initiate "suicide by cop" knowing they'd likely be shot. People have actually walked into police facilities to do this, as well as doing this in the street.

I have one personal experience wherein my partner and I responded to a public building on a report of a young man robbing people at gunpoint. We snuck up on him, his gun (a 92 Beretta) was in his hand but we were behind him. I shouted the usual, "Police, Don't Move, Drop the Gun!" (and probably a few epithets added) and he turned on us. Of course we had guns already up and he was about to get some .45's his way when he realized we had cover, guns up and there were at least two of us. He dropped his gun and the sound I heard made my brain go sideways for a minute. Instead of hearing gunmetal hitting marble, I heard a plasticky sound. He had an airsoft with no orange end. If I (we) had killed him (19 yrs old) it would have been "Cops kill youth playing with toy gun...film at 11."

Cops have killed kids with toy guns, water guns, airsoft, bb and pellet guns, etc. It is very sad and tragic for all around. We are trained to be aware, but it still happens. If someone points what looks like a gun at a policeman there is a great chance that tragedy will occur. Cops have also shot metally disturbed individuals under similar circumstances. All very sad and everyone pays a price.

1859sharps
05-11-2009, 12:08 PM
Before getting too high and mighty on the officer... you do realize if some of calgun's current law suites succeed, anyone one of us could find our self in this officers shoes.

Academically, to shoot or not to shoot is easy. real life, as long as your concerned about doing the right thing...not so easy.

nooner
05-11-2009, 12:09 PM
I am not going to voice an opinion on the incident. If I am going to take issue, its going to be with the training received by our LEO, and the mindset they are drilled to operate under.

I remember playing Solider, Cops and Robbers, Cowboy and Indian and every male kid on the block having a toy gun. Now, we are in discussions of whether we should have toy guns for children to play with, for fear of being shot by LEO, by mistake.

Anything, and everything having to do with guns, is under constant attack, and vilified at the State and County level. I don't know, I don't think our society is any more, or less violent, than at any other point and time in our history. The FBI numbers go slightly up and down, but there are no real big swings that I am aware of (correct me if I am wrong), so what has really changed?
IMHO, training, attitude, and expectation.I'm with you.

hill billy
05-11-2009, 12:13 PM
I remember playing Solider, Cops and Robbers, Cowboy and Indian and every male kid on the block having a toy gun. Now, we are in discussions of whether we should have toy guns for children to play with, for fear of being shot by LEO, by mistake.

When I was a kid I never stuck a Sig airsoft that looked EXACTLY like the real thing in the front of my pants, tucked my shirt in behind it so it stuck out and then walked into a Chevron dressed like a thug with five guys behind me hoping no one would notice.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
05-11-2009, 12:16 PM
Given only the facts appearing here, any officer I've trained would do the same if he/she followed their training.

If there's a "victim" here, it's the deputy who has to look at themselves in the mirror every morning and replay the incident in their heads on nights when they can't sleep.

fullrearview
05-11-2009, 12:16 PM
1st lets call him what he is....a teenager or young man. He's not a kid. Hes in high school for Christ's sake. Second he should know better than carrying around a gun, fake or not, and pointing it at people.

Cop is 100% justified, with no remorse. Kid is lucky to be alive!

hill billy
05-11-2009, 12:17 PM
Given only the facts appearing here, any officer I've trained would do the same if he/she followed their training.

If there's a "victim" here, it's the deputy who has to look at themselves in the mirror every morning and replay the incident in their heads on nights when they can't sleep.
And I hope to God someone points out to him that he did what he was trained to do AND the right thing and he sleeps well. I'm scared I might get home tonight and find out I know this deputy.

Model X
05-11-2009, 12:18 PM
And they're inherently dangerous because they are indistinguishable from real guns.

The one and only airsoft gun i have (just to screw around with) is clear and is very obviously not a real gun.

I wonder why there aren't more problems like this with BB guns?

Josh3239
05-11-2009, 12:20 PM
Why are the police carrying toy guns? Just kidding, that is how I read the thread title at first. Kinda confused me :D

I don't see the problem, kid was carrying a toy that looked a handgun in public. Officers responded and ordered him to drop the weapon, kid points toy at officers, officers feel as though their lives are in danger and open fire. And I am willing to bet that if the officers opened fire so quickly then their guns were already drawn and the kid knew that it wasn't a game and he knew that the officers thought it was real. I chalk this one up as Darwin if the kid dies.

nooner
05-11-2009, 12:23 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

Scotty
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
Just about every IPSC shooter owns an airsoft gun now. With the price of ammo and lack of availability, airsoft guns have proven to be a really useful tool considering you can set it up exactly like your real gun. Many places are using airsoft guns for force on force training since they are much cheaper than simunition guns.

It doesn't matter what kind of gun it is, BB gun, airsoft, etc. You just don't point them at someone that is carrying a real gun unless you want to be shot. Try pointing a nail gun at a cop, I bet he'll shoot you. Should we ban nail guns too?

DDT
05-11-2009, 12:25 PM
A 15 year-old playing cops and robbers is a scam, he was threatening and got shot for it.

I think this is highly likely if he is a 15 year old in a "bad neighborhood." I'm sure the games played in these areas are not the same that some of us who grew up in a suburban or "good" neighborhood.


That being said, I have no problem with airsoft realistic looking guns. First off the reason they are so popular, in part, is that the gun culture is on the wane and it is completely natural so this is a new outlet for that same impulse.

If we are successful in reviving the gun culture these sorts of faux-guns are likely to become less and less popular.

When I was a kid we had a ton of toy guns and bb guns. We had bb wars and were smart enough to wear goggles but not smart enough to not shoot at each other. Paintball came later.

I have a 2 year old and he has no guns, just coincidence, I have no trouble with gun toys but he hasn't been interested in them yet. I do have a clear 92FS airsoft gun and my son will eventually be playing with it. I haven't really decided what to wrt firearms safety with "realistic" guns with him. I want him to learn early but at the same time kids point ray guns at each other and where do you draw the line on the continuum? Just about every squirt gun I had as a kid was somehow derivative of the 1911. Smaller, usually clear but somehow derivative.

I am against outlawing "realistic" toys guns but parents need to monitor what their kids have and teach them that pointing guns at people has consequences, sometimes fatal ones.

Texas Boy
05-11-2009, 12:32 PM
I agree - the LEO did what he had to do. Either his parents, his community, or his common sense failed for the kid to think such an act was OK.

That said, young boys and toy guns are like magnets - tell a small kid he can't have a toy gun and he will fabricate one out of anything he has - I've seen little kids eat their cheese sandwich into a gun! All parents should educate their children on firearms and proper rules for play guns....here are the rules in my house:

1. A toy gun is NEVER pointed at another individual UNLESS it is a rubber band/paintball/airsoft/nerf gun AND part of a pre-arranged and agreed upon game.

2. Toy guns stay inside the house, the fenced back yard, or designated play areas (like a paintball field) that are isolated from the public. You don't walk down the street with your paintball gun exposed or take it to school.

3. Occasionally we play paintball in unpopulated wooded areas. I make sure we have an adult for every "team". Highly realistic guns are discouraged. The kids are instructed that if ANYONE enters the area who is not part of the game they are to yell "Cease fire! Cease fire!" and the game is over. Should they see ANYONE in UNIFORM (police, park ranger) they are to immediately drop their paintball "marker", keep their hands visible, freeze and yell "Paintball game! Cease Fire!"

BTW - my son does have experience with real firearms. When playing paintball I insist he be just as strict with his muzzle and trigger discipline as with the real thing. Toy guns can be great tools for teaching a mindset with firearms.

Josh3239
05-11-2009, 12:35 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

You consider ordering someone to drop their weapon, then them pointing their gun at you, then you opening fire as "shoot first ask questions later"?

Are you crazy? They ordered him to drop it, he pointed what officers thought was a real weapon at them. What, the kid thought the cops were joking?!?

Don't even pretend that if you were in the officer's shoes and a kid with a gun ignored your orders and pointed his gun at you that you wouldn't shoot.

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 12:39 PM
If there's a "victim" here, it's the deputy who has to look at themselves in the mirror every morning and replay the incident in their heads on nights when they can't sleep.

That's right. Even though the shoot was correct (from what we can see in the article), this deputy is going to suffer with the knowledge of it.

Liberty1
05-11-2009, 12:52 PM
There is a print out on the pink "Hello Kitty" AR15 rifle hanging in the Orange County Jail.

gunsmith
05-11-2009, 12:59 PM
not enough info given really but it seems as if not much he could have done .

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html

you cant even trust little kids sometimes

Liberty1
05-11-2009, 1:01 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ?ask questions later.

All we have to go with is the info from the article soooo......

1st: It was talk: "Drop the gun!", etc...

2nd: The individual (deputies don't know the real age yet) raised and pointed a gun at the deputy.

3rd: Deputy fired in defense of his life and stopped the threat.


There are other circumstances where I will not hesitate to question the actions of police forces but unless we have reason to doubt the story as given I don't have a problem with the results.

Now if the caller knew the "children" and could plainly see they were playing (as I did with BB guns and toy guns for years but at 15 I was shooting real guns in my back yard :thumbsup:) then I have a problem with that individual not giving dispatch all the info.

bubbagump
05-11-2009, 1:07 PM
Good points.
Do you have a site where they show the numbers, backing your points?

At my previous job, I worked at a youth center in one of the local cities. These kids were all under 18.

One of the kids (15) that spent time at the youth center went to jail for burning down a house. He also damn near killed a kid at his school in a fight.

When I worked for the police department, a kid (14) from one of the local gangs shot and killed another kid from another local gang. I spoke with the officer who interviewed the kid after the incident. The kid owned up to what he did with PRIDE. He didn't snitch, either.

Once you meet one of these kids & speak with them...thats all the "numbers" you need.

I suggest you go take a drive through some of the "nice" neighborhoods in Palmdale (or any rough neighborhood in California). Then try to differentiate between a 15 year old and a grown*** man. Hard to tell them apart.

Even better, go visit a juvenile detention facility. Lots of interesting kids there...

eltee
05-11-2009, 1:22 PM
If someone points a gun at me (as an on duty cop or off) and I feel threatened, I will shoot. There is no time for questions.

"Sir, are you going to shoot me?" "Sir, is that a real gun with real bullets?" :rolleyes: No, there is no time and, according to my training and written policies, no need to ask any questions.

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 1:33 PM
If someone points a gun at me (as an on duty cop or off) and I feel threatened, I will shoot. There is no time for questions.

"Sir, are you going to shoot me?" "Sir, is that a real gun with real bullets?" :rolleyes: No, there is no time and, according to my training and written policies, no need to ask any questions.

Yup, there is no other way it could be. There isn't time to ponder such things.

It's the same as pointing an unloaded gun at someone. No one has time to look to see if it's loaded or not; it's assumed to be loaded.

Pointing a gun or a gun-like thing at someone is a serious, hostile act and warrants a response with deadly force.

As the other poster said, the deputy is the victim here.

whobob
05-11-2009, 1:41 PM
Does anyone know the exact story? The media is saying there are 2 stories about this incident. The witnesses' side and the officer's side.

Corbin Dallas
05-11-2009, 1:43 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

I find it more disturbing that you would stop to ask questions...


Yo homie! What set are you from???

That thing real? Really???

<hey, what's that burning sensation...am I having heartburn again?? DAMM that pizza...>

Liberty1
05-11-2009, 1:47 PM
Does anyone know the exact story? The media is saying there are 2 stories about this incident. The witnesses' side and the officer's side.

There are always three stories; yours, the other guy's and the truth.

MasterYong
05-11-2009, 2:06 PM
Yesterday, after returning home from the range, I passed a kid on the side of the road that was easily 14-16. He had, in his hands, one of those airsoft replica machine guns. Looked like an uzi of some kind, I'm not really familiar with those types of firearms. Either way, the toy was obviously designed to be a dead ringer for an AW with a high-cap mag. No orange tip, either (most of those orange tips pull right off, and I had a client I did advertising for once that actually would remove the tip before shipping it to you if that's what you wanted).

This dumb@ss kid pointed that thing at my car! I had a car load of firearms, and was more than equipped to defend myself. I was 99.9% sure that what he had wasn't real (I live in a fairly rural county, and I was driving on a farm road) but I was nervous as hell as I pulled my car over to give this kid hell (and possibly get shot myself).

I said to this kid: "That's a toy, right?" he says: "Yeah, so?" I replied: "Well, I just got back from the shooting range, and if I was a little more jumpy I mighta emptied a magazine into your torso for pointing that damned thing at me, and I would be well within my rights!"

He was about to respond with more sarcasm, when his mom came running out of the nearby farm house shouting "Did you just point that at him? What did I say? WHAT DID I SAY???" and she smashed the thing into bits on the pavement! It was awesome.

She asked if everything was alright, and I explained what had happened, and what could have happened. That kid got dragged inside that house REAL quick- I doubt he'll do that again.

Then I come into work today, and read the headlines on my RSS feed. Coincidences are strange things. I hope that kid's mom watches the news tonight.

Turo
05-11-2009, 2:15 PM
My cousin (LEO for about 3-4 years now) told the family a story where he got a MWAG call to the local mall. He, and a partner headed over and found a group of 'bangers walking around the parking lot. one had a gun tucked into the front of his pants and was ordered to put his hands up. then the kid did the stupidest thing ever in his life, he grabbed the gun by the top (with his weak hand) and started sliding it out. My cousin already had his out pointing at the kid, telling him to stop and put his hands up. the kid kept going, and my cousin was saying that he could see his own hammer coming back. at the very last second, my cousin saw the orange tip, and kicked the kid as hard as he could in the chest. Needless to say, the kid, and my cousin, were pretty shaken up.

the only things that saved this kid's life was that he 1) pulled the "gun" out slowly and 2) had an orange tip on it. Otherwise, he'd have been wasted.

Basically the moral of this story, and all the others, is that if you pull a gun, or anything, on a cop, expect to die. Maybe you'll just get shot and survive, or maybe you won't get shot, but who the heck would want to risk it?

Natty Bumppo
05-11-2009, 2:17 PM
The 15 year old is clearly in the running for the Darwin Award, in my opinion.

It's really hard to fault the cop, although the politically correct Internal Affairs will almost certainly try.

Eroland7
05-11-2009, 2:17 PM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.


+1 :thumbsup:

eta34
05-11-2009, 4:29 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

Please provide us with the appropriate response in this situation. Let us know how it should have been done.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 4:35 PM
This story reminds me of This one (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/23/48hours/main526691.shtml). Proving its not just kids who do stupid stuff like this....

The media tried to ROAST the cops in the Lee homicide.

DRSFEFA
05-11-2009, 4:39 PM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.


Without reading 8 or however many pages of responses 1st, this comment sums it up.
:thumbsup:

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 4:40 PM
Good points.
Do you have a site where they show the numbers, backing your points?
As a matter of fact...

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/crime.html

The perception that criminals are getting younger is backed up by statistics. In 1982, 390 teens ages 13-15 were arrested for murder. A decade later, this total jumped to 740.

or

http://www.children.smartlibrary.org/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=2037


The perception that youth violence increased dramatically during the 1980s and 1990s is misleading. Two researchers find that violent crime among youths grew at the same rate as for older men. However, murder rates show that young criminals became much more violent during this time.



And finally:

Juvenile homicide arrest rates went from about 2 per 100000 youth in 1965 to 12 per 100000 in 1990 (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1998).

HowardW56
05-11-2009, 5:01 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

The appropriate response is to fall back to your training...

When confronted with a gun, fire and continue firing until the threat is neutralized... The goal is to make it home..

Dark Paladin
05-11-2009, 6:05 PM
Im going to get flamed for this.... BUT THAT should be illegal.... They should NOT be making "Toy" guns that look that realistic. Its an accident waiting to happen.

Any one of those gets pointed any where near me, and my CCW gun is coming out.... If you dont drop it fast enough, Im unloading the gun into your sternum.

If we're going to be expanding the rights of CCW and public self defense, we may have to accept some responsibility that we need to make ACCIDENTAL use of those rights less likely by not making toy guns look so real... I dont want to second guess myself as hesitation can mean death in a uof situation. But now seeing that picture I dont know how I couldnt...

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I strongly disagree. Your position of "they should NOT be making X because its an accident waiting to happen" parallels too closely with anti-2A positions for comfort.

Contrary to misconceptions and media FUD, there are legitimate uses for airsoft. But just like with all things, there are RESPONSIBLE uses of replicas, and there are just totally asinine ways of using replicas that just begs for applications to the annual Darwin Award gala.

I treat airsoft replicas like I do real steel firearms, because there is indeed risk of injury if used improperly. Just about everyone I play airsoft with espouses the same safety concerns. And we aren't teenagers running around in the streets either. We are adults with professional careers, and some are LEO / military service (both retired and active). We don't just waltz around in neighborhood streets pelting each other with plastic BBs because yes, that is simply asking for trouble with LEO. We limit ourselves in secured areas that prevent any accidental encounters with non-participants. We even secure permission from the land owner AND the surrounding neighborhood so that there is NO misunderstanding about our activities.

Unfortunately, not everyone treats airsoft the same way we do. So yes you will see news articles like this that will raise FUD about airsoft. But ask yourself this, is this really any different than using firearms/knives/objects capable of causing bodily harm in a irresponsible way?

At the end of the day, responsibility for what happened should fall on the user, not on the tool.

Pronghorn
05-11-2009, 6:07 PM
At least the hero made it home to his family.:rolleyes:

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 6:08 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I strongly disagree. Your position of "they should NOT be making X because its an accident waiting to happen" parallels too closely with anti-2A positions for comfort.

Contrary to misconceptions and media FUD, there are legitimate uses for airsoft. But just like with all things, there are RESPONSIBLE uses of replicas, and there are just totally asinine ways of using replicas that just begs for applications to the annual Darwin Award gala.

I treat airsoft replicas like I do real steel firearms, because there is indeed risk of injury if used improperly. Just about everyone I play airsoft with espouses the same safety concerns. And we aren't teenagers running around in the streets either. We are adults with professional careers, and some are LEO / military service (both retired and active). We don't just waltz around in neighborhood streets pelting each other with plastic BBs because yes, that is simply asking for trouble with LEO. We limit ourselves in secured areas that prevent any accidental encounters with non-participants. We even secure permission from the land owner AND the surrounding neighborhood so that there is NO misunderstanding about our activities.

Unfortunately, not everyone treats airsoft the same way we do. So yes you will see news articles like this that will raise FUD about airsoft. But ask yourself this, is this really any different than using firearms/knives/objects capable of causing bodily harm in a irresponsible way?

At the end of the day, responsibility for what happened should fall on the user, not on the tool.

My problem isnt with airsoft. Its with Airsoft guns that look JUST LIKE REAL ONES. Can you shoot each other with plastic BBs from guns that DONT look just like real firearms and still have the same amount of fun?

Dark Paladin
05-11-2009, 6:18 PM
My problem isnt with airsoft. Its with Airsoft guns that look JUST LIKE REAL ONES. Can you shoot each other with plastic BBs from guns that DONT look just like real firearms and still have the same amount of fun?

Unfortunately, no, as that completely detracts from the purpose of milsim (military simulation).

Example of legitimate use: http://www.oplionclaws.com/

If you take a look at the user manuals of reputable airsoft makers, they explicitly state DO NOT point the replica at random people, DO NOT use the replica in a public area, and DO always treat replicas with the utmost care. Any of that sound familiar in comparison with real steel firearms?

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 6:21 PM
Update. They are now saying the kid is "special Needs" Which explains a lot.... But what it doesnt explain is why his PARENTS who should have kept a closer eye on him allowed him out of the house with a realistic looking gun.

IrishJoe3
05-11-2009, 6:24 PM
If I am going to take issue, its going to be with the training received by our LEO, and the mindset they are drilled to operate under.
.

Do tell me what the mindset is that they are drilled to operate under? And how do you think the training could be improved?

Holocanthus
05-11-2009, 6:33 PM
This is just another one of those examples of where society needs to start demanding personal responsibility from it's citizens. If you do something stupid that brings consequences upon you....OH WELL.....you'll know better next time. If you end up dead because of it....then society no longer needs to worry about you passing you "stupid genes" onto someone else.

That's Darwinism

It's like natural selection. Our society has become overrun with stupid people because society goes out of it's way to pander to and protect them. A couple hundred years ago stupid people usually didn't live very long, hence they didn't reproduce that often....they usually did something stupid and got themselves dead fairly early on before they could make more stupid people.

You'd enjoy the movie "Idiocracy"

My problem isnt with airsoft. Its with Airsoft guns that look JUST LIKE REAL ONES. Can you shoot each other with plastic BBs from guns that DONT look just like real firearms and still have the same amount of fun?

I disagree. It was the only way for me to get my hands on a PSG-1. I eventually sold it to buy something real, but at the time, a PSG-1 was something I really wanted and the airsoft was just a subsitute for something I'll probably never own in this state.

IrishJoe3
05-11-2009, 6:33 PM
I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.



http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349

While I agree with you concerning the liberl media and finger pointing, I was wondering what you thought (if you thought) the issue was concerning training?

7x57
05-11-2009, 6:34 PM
My problem isnt with airsoft. Its with Airsoft guns that look JUST LIKE REAL ONES. Can you shoot each other with plastic BBs from guns that DONT look just like real firearms and still have the same amount of fun?

It doesn't matter--the government should not be having opinions on what he chooses to buy for his Second Amendment activities. And if he does something stupid and gets shot for it, it shouldn't be hassling the person who thought they were in danger. If he can have a real gun, he can have a realistic toy gun.

If you ask the government save you from the evil plastic rifle (EPR's, anyone?), it will surely find a way to "save" you from a lot more than that.

The real reason for banning such things is attacking the idea of gun culture, and accepting the militarized police mentality.

You're responsible for all the stuff in your hands, real or just realistic, and the government isn't.

ETA: and of course based on the info so far the cop did the right thing. If there was any blame beyond the kid, it lies with his parents or whoever is responsible for him. Sometimes the universe punishes stupidity, and if you try to avoid that you create something worse.

7x57

RoadMaster
05-11-2009, 6:36 PM
I find it disturbing there are so many that are way too comfortable with shoot first ask questions later.

As a person that works with maximum security juvenile offenders (13-18) I know exactly what they are capable of. A 17 yr old just got 25 to life/ without parole. I see nothing wrong with what the officer did.

Plus we don't know the conditions of which the shot was fired. Was it in the evening with a low level of lighting? Was the juvenile in an alley and covered by the shade of a nearby building? Did the guy run first and before the command was given? All of these things make a big difference.

I read a story once about a cop San Diego PD that shot a handcuffed guy in the head in 2006. I thought there is no way he got away with that. It wasn't until I read the story did it change my whole outlook of these situations.
http://www.aclusandiego.org/article_downloads/000401/2006%2010%2012%20Jonathan%20Michael%20Ray.pdf

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 6:41 PM
It doesn't matter--the government should not be having opinions on what he chooses to buy for his Second Amendment activities. And if he does something stupid and gets shot for it, it shouldn't be hassling the person who thought they were in danger. If he can have a real gun, he can have a realistic toy gun.

If you ask the government save you from the evil plastic rifle (EPR's, anyone?), it will surely find a way to "save" you from a lot more than that.

The real reason for banning such things is attacking the idea of gun culture, and accepting the militarized police mentality.

You're responsible for all the stuff in your hands, real or just realistic, and the government isn't.

ETA: and of course based on the info so far the cop did the right thing. If there was any blame beyond the kid, it lies with his parents or whoever is responsible for him. Sometimes the universe punishes stupidity, and if you try to avoid that you create something worse.

7x57

Im sorry, but you have absolutely no second amendment right to a TOY GUN.... Its not a weapon of self defense. Its not even a weapon.

Solidmch
05-11-2009, 6:43 PM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

+1000 when seconds count I am not gonna wait to find out if the gun is real.I held a Airsoft glock that was used in a robbery last week that looked and felt like my glock.

jamesob
05-11-2009, 6:47 PM
Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

Just so there are no misunderstandings, I have the highest respect for the LA County Sheriff department, in fact I specifically opened LA Guns in their jurisdiction because of the security and professionalism I felt they would provide. The dozens of Deputies and Detectives I have dealt with over the years have confirmed that I made the right decision.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349
did the right thing. very very very stupid boy.

Solidmch
05-11-2009, 6:47 PM
Please provide us with the appropriate response in this situation. Let us know how it should have been done.

Maybe he thinks the bad guys should have to shoot first before the police can shoot. ETA he would not last very long in your line of work... one bad car stop.

IrishJoe3
05-11-2009, 6:55 PM
At least the hero made it home to his family.:rolleyes:

Are you being sarcastic and suggesting that it'd been better for the Deputy to have been shot?

Dark Paladin
05-11-2009, 6:57 PM
Im sorry, but you have absolutely no second amendment right to a TOY GUN.... Its not a weapon of self defense. Its not even a weapon.

So it has to be protected by the Constitution in order for it to be a right? We are still the "Land of the Free", at liberty to pursue our own happiness, aren't we? That's a very slippery slope you're describing there, and I really do not want to see what is at the end of that tunnel.

Perhaps you don't consider it a weapon, but several city/county/state laws do for the exact purpose of allowing LE to not have to second guess themselves in a situation like this.

In case I haven't made my stance clear before, the officer did the right thing today, despite the FUD the media will be spreading (about both LE reaction/training and airsoft replicas). I blame the parents for not doing THEIR job of minding their own offspring.

7x57
05-11-2009, 7:01 PM
Im sorry, but you have absolutely no second amendment right to a TOY GUN.... Its not a weapon of self defense. Its not even a weapon.

Not precisely--but you can train, as the entire point of removing the "self defense" restriction in the British right was to make sure that people were as practiced as possible in using their arms, and the poster was clearly talking about training for using actual weapons. So now it comes down to interpretation--if the courts treat the 2A like they treat a lot of "rights" not explicitly stated in the Constitution, then they will have to give some pause at laws that ban things that "look like" protected things. Just how non-functional does it have to be to lose protection? Broken real gun? Real gun with a (hypothetical) airsoft modification? Functional airgun? If this were speech, no one would even consider restrictions on training tools or other simulators.

The point, however, was not even about that, if you read it, and the question of whether there is any 2A involvement with simulators is not even terribly interesting to me at the moment. What I said is about freedom, and the necessity of not asking the government to solve non-problems. It was asserted on this thread that realistic toys should be illegal--based, apparently, on the idea that there should be a law against everything that could possibly be used foolishly or badly. This is a non-problem; if you can own a gun, laws against owning things that are by definition no more dangerous than a gun are pointless. Only very gullible citizens ask the government to solve non-problems, and in fact a good deal many real problems that have unintended consequences for government involvement that are worse than the original problem.

I'm very worried when the knee-jerk reaction on a gun board to "this is something that requires some care to use safely" is "the government should ban this". We will lose, even with an incorporated Second Amendment if gunnies start buying that argument.

7x57

7x57
05-11-2009, 7:03 PM
Perhaps you don't consider it a weapon, but several city/county/state laws do for the exact purpose of allowing LE to not have to second guess themselves in a situation like this.


The courts will probably not be honest enough to so find even if they agreed with the logic, but I would say that the Second Amendment covers anything a government attempts to regulate as a weapon. Same logic as the Israeli law of return--if you're Jewish enough for the Nazis to kill you, that's good enough to give you shelter.

7x57

Ding126
05-11-2009, 7:47 PM
My first question is: Isnt a 15 year old a little old to be playing "Cops and Robbers?"

My second question is: "Isnt a 15 year old, old enough to know not to point a gun, toy or not, at a cop?"

Third: A 15 year old is plently old enough to have a REAL gun and old enough to commit REAL crimes.

The problem is, that CRIMINALS are now painting the tips of their guns orange. Ive seen an AR15 that was confiscated from a local gang... Tip painted dayglo orange.



Ditto ! what he said ^

tyrist
05-11-2009, 10:08 PM
It's bad enough there are toy guns which look almost exactly like the real deal but then I get alerts about this kind of crap.

http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2009/03/water-soaker-converted-to-shotgun.html

sorensen440
05-11-2009, 10:11 PM
Our parents never allowed us to have realistic toy guns as kids probably for this reason

KylaGWolf
05-11-2009, 10:14 PM
My first question is: Isnt a 15 year old a little old to be playing "Cops and Robbers?"

My second question is: "Isnt a 15 year old, old enough to know not to point a gun, toy or not, at a cop?"

Third: A 15 year old is plently old enough to have a REAL gun and old enough to commit REAL crimes.

The problem is, that CRIMINALS are now painting the tips of their guns orange. Ive seen an AR15 that was confiscated from a local gang... Tip painted dayglo orange.

So the police are right back where they started. If somebody points a gun at you, orange tip or no orange tip, if the cop wants to go home at night, hes got to defend himself.

All very very valid points.

As someone that has worked in juvenile probation I can say that a 15 year old is definitely old enough to know better. I saw way too many things to think think there is such a thing as innocence anymore with our youth, and this is also from someone that is a mom to a teenager. I had another whole thought on this situation. Anyone think that maybe this kid did the suicide by cop thing? And yes the anti gun people are going to be all we need to ban ALL TOY GUNS now so this will never happen again.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 10:22 PM
All very very valid points.

As someone that has worked in juvenile probation I can say that a 15 year old is definitely old enough to know better. I saw way too many things to think think there is such a thing as innocence anymore with our youth, and this is also from someone that is a mom to a teenager. I had another whole thought on this situation. Anyone think that maybe this kid did the suicide by cop thing? And yes the anti gun people are going to be all we need to ban ALL TOY GUNS now so this will never happen again.

Unfortunately its now sounding like the reports of a "7 year old" may be partially correct... Body of a 15 year old, development of a seven year old.... The kids not all there from the sound of it....

Freaking nightmare scenario.

Grandmother says boy is a special-education student (http://www.knx1070.com/Deputy-Shoots-Teen-Carrying-Toy-Gun-in-Palmdale/4374406)

KylaGWolf
05-11-2009, 10:27 PM
yep nightmare is right.

CCWFacts
05-11-2009, 10:28 PM
Anyone who allows a mentally underdeveloped child to have access to a realistic toy gun is nuts. Did they also give him a chainsaw and a jar of white phosphorous?

phamkl
05-11-2009, 10:28 PM
I have an airsoft gun from my teen days. Some of my friends still airsoft. They're some of the most pacifistic people I know, in fact, so I don't like the argument that airsoft itself is bad.

The play of airsoft is essentially Counter Strike but with social interaction.

Anyway, like I said, I've had an airsoft for a few years and really, I took it on myself to treat it like the real thing (I had no one to teach me the 4 cardinal safety rules) so I would argue that it's not the toy, but the person using it. Seems to me the kid should've known better, for one, and if not, we should be working on the part that left him so ignorant whether it be how he was raised, the types of influences he's had, or something else. But like many are saying - he should've known better and though sad, ultimately got what he deserved for pulling anything on someone else with a gun.

You know, this whole "not the toy but the one holding it" is pretty much the same thing with firearms. Granted, 2A rights don't cover airsoft... Either way - we shouldn't rally against airsoft, but against whatever would cause the kid to pull a replica on a LEO.

Pronghorn
05-11-2009, 10:34 PM
Are you being sarcastic and suggesting that it'd been better for the Deputy to have been shot?

No, I'm being sarcastic and saying that the cop should have used better judgement. Sorry, all cops aren't heros. Yes, I hold them to a higher standard. Don't like it? Sorry.

JDay
05-11-2009, 10:42 PM
I bet it was one of the replica airsoft pistols. Wonder why the media is calling it a toy though, you have to be 18 to buy those.

RomanDad
05-11-2009, 10:48 PM
No, I'm being sarcastic and saying that the cop should have used better judgement. Sorry, all cops aren't heros. Yes, I hold them to a higher standard. Don't like it? Sorry.

Sorry... His judgment was perfect from what I can see.


You have a magical crystal ball that tells you an object that looks like a gun isnt really a gun in the split second before it can be used against you, thus making the "better judgement" (sic) academic?

Cause I could really use one of those.

phamkl
05-11-2009, 11:01 PM
Airsoft as a toy - that's actually wrong, isn't it. Definitely not a "toy" in the sense of a trivial play thing, because it's hardly trivial.

And I would side with the deputy - My M4 airsoft was a dead ringer for my friend's AR. The telescopic stock was identical, the rail was identical (we mounted my carry handle on his AR just to see and it was a perfect fit - I considered letting him have it but he got a red dot instead) and even the flash hider was the same. You could only tell from up close that the matte plastic fore grip was in fact, plastic. Most high end airsoft companies like Tokyo Marui, Classic War, or UTG, make "real steel" airsoft guns to mimic the real thing exactly. For many of these guns, without any other context, you wouldn't know if it was real or otherwise until the trigger's been pulled and no one wants to wait for the other guy to do it.

masameet
05-11-2009, 11:05 PM
On first blush I thought this was a good shoot.

Now that it's been brought out that the kid is a special ed student, I think that fact does not bear much as to the shooting. Because how were the LASD deputies supposed to have known? There've been LEOs shot to death by men who were mentally challenged. San Jose PD Officer Jeff Fontana's killer is finally being tried, seven and a half years after he was murdered. It's night time, they catch a suspect who points what looks like a semi-automatic pistol at them, and BANG!

Interesting for sure that the news stories mentioned several deputies had the teenager in their sights and that only one of them fired his firearm. No doubt the kid's grandmother will file some kind of lawsuit against LASD, LA County and the lone deputy.

Hamster16
05-11-2009, 11:13 PM
i believe the officers actions were spot on. i live in palmdale (only a couple of miles from where the shooting took place) and not that my proximity makes my opinion more or less valid but the kid deserves to be shot for pointing a gun at police officers. i commend the officers in our area for doing the job they do and with any luck i will be right there along side them soon. the area that this took place isnt a good area to begin with and i would expect any child pointing a gun at me there to be a real one. i hope the officer doesnt lose a wink of sleep over this as he did the right thing. i am aware that the child is a special needs child but we dont know to what extent but i dont believe it makes any difference.

retired
05-11-2009, 11:18 PM
To answer the OP's question, based on the totality of the circumstances, I would have to say the deputy did the right thing IMO. The kid really left him no choice and he is lucky to be alive.

Of course, the family will find an atty. (nah, the atty, will find the family) and they will sue the County. The County, will settle for hundreds of thousands because they know if they don't, some stupid jury will give the kid and his family millions. That is the way the game is played. And another lotto winner is made.

Years ago, when "assault" weapons were legal in this state (early to mid 80s was the incident), we got a call of a kid with an assault weapon at a high school in Hacienda Heights.

Well, to make a long story short (yes, I can do that once in awhile.:D), he ran back onto campus with this AR15 looking rifle and me pointing my revolver at him.

I ordered him several times to drop it and he said it was a squirt gun. I had the trigger halfway back when he finally dropped it. It turned out to be a squirt gun. Stupid kid almost got killed and I would have had to live with that for the rest of my life, tho I would have been justified.

i hope the officer doesnt lose a wink of sleep over this as he did the right thing.

Hamster, whether or not the deputy did the right thing in this instance is not the point (remember, I said IMO, he did). In either case, he, probably like all decent leos, will lose a wink of sleep over it. If I have to explain why, I would suggest you think long and hard about becoming a leo; especially for my former dept. The dept., nor the profession itself, need someone without a conscience.

Hamster16
05-11-2009, 11:37 PM
If I have to explain why, I would suggest you think long and hard about becoming a leo; especially for my former dept. The dept., nor the profession itself, need someone without a conscience.
i do understand and you dont have to explain why. i guess that was a poor choice of words to explain that i wish this officer the best. sorry for the lack of or more thought out statement. also sorry for being off topic.

yellowfin
05-12-2009, 12:03 AM
Interesting how in self defense we can assume that a fake gun is real and act accordingly (as we should) yet no such protection is afforded to assuming a badge may be fake when a gun is pointed at us unjustifiably.

IrishJoe3
05-12-2009, 12:03 AM
No, I'm being sarcastic and saying that the cop should have used better judgement. .

So what do you think the Deputy should have done? What would you define as better judgment? Should they have sent in the rookie to see if it was a real gun? Perhaps asked him to complete a brief questionnaire prior to rounds down range that would help identify an potential mental issues? Would soft music over the PA help? Perhaps they should have all gone home when they realized there was a gun?



Sorry, all cops aren't heros. .

Maybe not, but they are average working Joes much like yourself who has a family, kids, is trying to pay the mortgage, and get his shot at the American Dream. He's also entitled to the same rights and privileges that you are.


Yes, I hold them to a higher standard. Don't like it? Sorry.

And what is that higher standard here? In your eyes do cops have to take rounds before they can defend themselves? Why should cops be held to a higher standard than you, especially concerning self defense?

Frankly I get tired of people brushing off police officers deaths as "well its their job to get shot". His kids and wife would disagree.

IrishJoe3
05-12-2009, 12:17 AM
Interesting how in self defense we can assume that a fake gun is real and act accordingly (as we should) yet no such protection is afforded to assuming a badge may be fake when a gun is pointed at us unjustifiably.

Great Point! Let me try and clarify....

Badge
+
Gun...possibly fake.

Badge
+
Gun
+
Uniform
+
Patrol Car
+
Lights
+
Other Patrol Cars
+
Helicoptor
+
Dog
+
Other uniforms with guns......probably real.

:rolleyes:

phamkl
05-12-2009, 1:07 AM
Ok so even if we look at it from the kid's POV, the guy yelling at you already has the drop on you so it's not a good idea to draw.

And a special needs kid ought to get attention that would prevent this from happening.

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 1:16 AM
Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

Just so there are no misunderstandings, I have the highest respect for the LA County Sheriff department, in fact I specifically opened LA Guns in their jurisdiction because of the security and professionalism I felt they would provide. The dozens of Deputies and Detectives I have dealt with over the years have confirmed that I made the right decision.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349
Whats with these kids? I've been hearing these stories since the early 80's. More than one stupid parent has bought a toy gun for their damned fool children. A retarded 6 year old got killed in San Francisco after brandishing his cap pistol at a cop. The wackos blamed the police instead of his reckless parents.

First they banned those pot metal replica guns in the back of our magazines. Congress required the bright red and orange markings on the barrels; but the problems continue. We had all kinds of toy guns growing up and no silly laws against owning them. Nobody ever thought about pointing one at the police...

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 1:24 AM
My first question is: Isnt a 15 year old a little old to be playing "Cops and Robbers?"

My second question is: "Isnt a 15 year old, old enough to know not to point a gun, toy or not, at a cop?"

Third: A 15 year old is plently old enough to have a REAL gun and old enough to commit REAL crimes.

The problem is, that CRIMINALS are now painting the tips of their guns orange. Ive seen an AR15 that was confiscated from a local gang... Tip painted dayglo orange.

So the police are right back where they started. If somebody points a gun at you, orange tip or no orange tip, if the cop wants to go home at night, hes got to defend himself.
It's just as easy to paint over the orange tips on a toy gun too. Go back to square one...

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 1:33 AM
I agree, it's totally crazy to have those things around. It's an accident waiting to happen, as was in this case. And I don't see that airsofts would have any 2A protection.

It's tragically stupid for the children who have these things and end up getting shot. It's tragically tragic for the LEO / CCWer who made the right decision to shoot, but then has to live with the knowledge that he shot an unarmed child when the facts are found out. Even though the shooter is morally and legally blameless in such a situation, he will still be tormented by knowing he shot a child.
Maybe the gun makers should file class action lawsuits against AIRSOFT and accuse them of stealing their patented designs and trademarks. There is no need for a toy to look exactly like a real firearms...

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 1:39 AM
They came from parts of Asia (Japan, Taiwan) where real guns just aren't in circulation and there's almost no crime, so it doesn't present an issue there. Here, where real guns are all over the place and 15 year olds can be full-fledged gang members, those "toys" don't make any sense. They do have some legitimate uses, for some training purposes. I read a couple of years ago about some guy from Japan who trained with an airsoft, and had never fired a gun before, and came here and won some kind of competition (IPSC ?) through his airsoft training. Also the small plastic pellets they shoot are harmless, so they can be used in force simulations. But that's an exceptional situation; 99.9% of the buyers of these things are probably children who shouldn't have them. And they're inherently dangerous because they are indistinguishable from real guns.
They're making replica C&Rs too. You'll pay as much for a toy 98K Mauser rifle as the stores charge for a real Russian capture these days. A toy Arisaka costs more than a real one. It's crazy...

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 1:56 AM
I was detained at age 8 by the Feds. We had climbed over the wire into the WLA VA property to play when a group parents were having a Kentucky Derby party.

I had an M1 Rifle, plastic, but it looked real except for the weight. one of the officers sure gave it an inspection. It looked as real as the airsoft guns of today but this was in the early 60's.

The VA property had some great wilderness property to play in and barbed wire fences to test our skills:)

Two Federal Squad Cars escorted 10 kids to the parents.

Learned early on if you have a realistic looking arm as a kid, it will make a LEO very nervous.

A 15 year-old playing cops and robbers is a scam, he was threatening and got shot for it.
I don't remember the toy Garand; but Mattel sold a replica M-14 and a 1911/A1 pistol. Both of these Johnny Eagle toy guns fired plastic bullets...

cousinkix1953
05-12-2009, 2:00 AM
Ill tell you what HAS changed.... And its a problem that faces the entire criminal justice system that was designed generations ago to deal with a DIFFERENT demographic of criminal than we have today.

"Criminals" have gotten YOUNGER.

My city's police operations manual states "Modern criminals have gotten younger and ultraviolent."
A pair of 8 year old brats robbed a QuikStop in Oakland a few weeks ago. One pinted a BB pistol at the clerk, while the other shoplifted a bunch of candy. And this was after dark too. Blame the parents...

Stormfeather
05-12-2009, 5:33 AM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is all that needs to be said. [/topic]

Stormfeather
05-12-2009, 6:11 AM
Yesterday, after returning home from the range, I passed a kid on the side of the road that was easily 14-16. He had, in his hands, one of those airsoft replica machine guns. Looked like an uzi of some kind, I'm not really familiar with those types of firearms. Either way, the toy was obviously designed to be a dead ringer for an AW with a high-cap mag. No orange tip, either (most of those orange tips pull right off, and I had a client I did advertising for once that actually would remove the tip before shipping it to you if that's what you wanted).

This dumb@ss kid pointed that thing at my car! I had a car load of firearms, and was more than equipped to defend myself. I was 99.9% sure that what he had wasn't real (I live in a fairly rural county, and I was driving on a farm road) but I was nervous as hell as I pulled my car over to give this kid hell (and possibly get shot myself).

I said to this kid: "That's a toy, right?" he says: "Yeah, so?" I replied: "Well, I just got back from the shooting range, and if I was a little more jumpy I mighta emptied a magazine into your torso for pointing that damned thing at me, and I would be well within my rights!"

He was about to respond with more sarcasm, when his mom came running out of the nearby farm house shouting "Did you just point that at him? What did I say? WHAT DID I SAY???" and she smashed the thing into bits on the pavement! It was awesome.

She asked if everything was alright, and I explained what had happened, and what could have happened. That kid got dragged inside that house REAL quick- I doubt he'll do that again.

Then I come into work today, and read the headlines on my RSS feed. Coincidences are strange things. I hope that kid's mom watches the news tonight.

wow. . . I just flashed back 30 years when I read this. . .:eek: Brings to mind a similar story of a somewhat irresponsible youth (who will remain nameless) who didnt fully understand the ramifications of pointing a bb gun at passing cars. The story as I remember it was, this certain "youth" getting his hindsection tarred with a switch off of a tree by his grandmother, (in the front lawn no less) then 45 minutes later by his grandfather who had just gotten off of work. The police actually drove by during the punishment phase by grandmother and stopped and wanted to know the reason for the punishment, and after it was explained, they shrugged it off and drove on. 45 minutes later they drove by again and saw the grandfather working up a sweat on the rear section of the same youth yet again with a brand new switch off of the tree, and they stopped to laugh and talk with the grandfather after it was all over. That particular youth (who will still remain nameless) remembers the officers displaying their concern over the local fishing limits instituted by the game warden, the currrent heat wave, and other various local events, but nothing of the corporal punishment. Im positive that youth found it particularly disturbing that nothing was said at all about the admonishment that they had witnessed. Needless to say, that certain youth learned a lesson that day. . . . .

1- Never point firearms, fake or real, at passinig vehicles.
2- LEO's back in those days knew. . . . they just knew what the deal was.
3- NEVER. . and I say again NEVER ever do this in the springtime, as limbs/switches from trees are particularly green, which means they are super flexible and they do not break. . .

G30 Steve
05-12-2009, 7:04 AM
If you point a gun at me I will shoot you. Any more questions?

Pronghorn
05-12-2009, 7:11 AM
So what do you think the Deputy should have done? What would you define as better judgment? Should they have sent in the rookie to see if it was a real gun? Perhaps asked him to complete a brief questionnaire prior to rounds down range that would help identify an potential mental issues? Would soft music over the PA help? Perhaps they should have all gone home when they realized there was a gun?




Maybe not, but they are average working Joes much like yourself who has a family, kids, is trying to pay the mortgage, and get his shot at the American Dream. He's also entitled to the same rights and privileges that you are.




And what is that higher standard here? In your eyes do cops have to take rounds before they can defend themselves? Why should cops be held to a higher standard than you, especially concerning self defense?

Frankly I get tired of people brushing off police officers deaths as "well its their job to get shot". His kids and wife would disagree.

I'm not anti-cop. I have several friends that are cops. I would have reacted the same way as the officer we are discussing, that's why I'm not a cop.

I hold them to a higher standard because we trust them with our lives, not to save, but not to endanger. If one of your loved ones were in the line of fire, and the cop was shooting at some kid with a toy, you would feel different.

I'll be the first to admit that police have a hard, stressful job that they are compensated poorly for. If cops are held to the same standards as the rest of us, why don't we all become cops. To be a good cop takes a special person, and I know a few of them. I also know a few that have no business walking around with a gun.

Pronghorn
05-12-2009, 7:12 AM
Sorry... His judgment was perfect from what I can see.


You have a magical crystal ball that tells you an object that looks like a gun isnt really a gun in the split second before it can be used against you, thus making the "better judgement" (sic) academic?

Cause I could really use one of those.


See my above post.

eflatminor
05-12-2009, 7:26 AM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

There you go. Dat's the truth!

Dark Paladin
05-12-2009, 7:52 AM
Maybe the gun makers should file class action lawsuits against AIRSOFT and accuse them of stealing their patented designs and trademarks. There is no need for a toy to look exactly like a real firearms...

Jeebus. . . we deal with enough FUD already regarding firearms. . . now there's FUD regarding airsoft from actual gunners. . .

Just because *YOU* don't have a need for it, doesn't mean other people don't have legitimate uses for it. See how your argument sounds really like the anti-2A people? Do we REALLY need to have EVERYTHING legislated?

For the record, some airsoft makers DO pay licensing fees for the designs. One airsoft maker produces their replicas from the EXACT SAME fab as the real steel versions as a result of a partnership arrangement with the real steel manufacturer. So whether you like it or not, they are following the rules.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for some people who purchases these and use them in a asinine way. . .

Californio
05-12-2009, 8:32 AM
I don't remember the toy Garand; but Mattel sold a replica M-14 and a 1911/A1 pistol. Both of these Johnny Eagle toy guns fired plastic bullets...

I looked at the Johnny Eagle M-14 picture on fleabay and that was not what I had. Also had a full sized pump shotgun that took water in the butt stock and with each rack of the pump you got a good blast of water.

I am sure it was an M1 rifle, my buddies Dad was the Colonel in charge of the ROTC over at UCLA and we had many chances to check out the armory.

RomanDad
05-12-2009, 9:54 AM
I'm not anti-cop. I have several friends that are cops. I would have reacted the same way as the officer we are discussing, that's why I'm not a cop.

I hold them to a higher standard because we trust them with our lives, not to save, but not to endanger. If one of your loved ones were in the line of fire, and the cop was shooting at some kid with a toy, you would feel different.


The law of self defense is the law of self defense. It doesnt change when one puts on a police uniform. The law is the same if one is a Police officer, a dog catcher, A longshoreman or a housewife.

One may use lethal force when they have a reasonable belief that they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from an unlawful attack.

Ok... So pointing a gun at anybody is in itself a crime. It is an assault. So we have the unlawful attack element met.

There is no question that bullets cause great bodily injury, so that element is met.

A pointed gun can be fired instantly, so the immediacy element is met (the kid didnt say "Im going to go back to my house and get my gun and come back and shoot you").

So the only question left is, was he reasonable in believing the gun was real? And Ive yet to hear that the gun looked like a SUPER SOAKER.... Day glow green with a great big water tank that made it OBVIOUS it wasnt a real gun.... By all accounts, it LOOKED LIKE A REAL GUN.

THAT is the law. Nothing in there about "unless they are a police officer, in which case they are to employ superhuman bullet dodging abilities or just 'take one for the team'."

RomanDad
05-12-2009, 10:37 AM
I'm not anti-cop. I have several friends that are cops.

By the way.... The next time youre hanging out with your cop friends, do me this favor.

1. Bring a camera with you.

2. Tell them you think that the cops in palmdale should have waited for the kid with the toy gun to shoot at them, before they shot him. And further, the next time they are faced with a young person pointing what appears to be a gun at them, that they too should hold their fire until they can determine if the gun is real or not.

3. At that moment snap a picture of the look on their faces, because I WOULD PAY TO SEE THAT.

Warhawk014
05-12-2009, 10:38 AM
so has a picture of the "toy gun" been released yet. i want to see what this moron pointed at the deputy to get shot.

IrishJoe3
05-12-2009, 11:11 AM
The law of self defense is the law of self defense. It doesnt change when one puts on a police uniform. The law is the same if one is a Police officer, a dog catcher, A longshoreman or a housewife.

One may use lethal force when they have a reasonable belief that they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from an unlawful attack.

Ok... So pointing a gun at anybody is in itself a crime. It is an assault. So we have the unlawful attack element met.

There is no question that bullets cause great bodily injury, so that element is met.

A pointed gun can be fired instantly, so the immediacy element is met (the kid didnt say "Im going to go back to my house and get my gun and come back and shoot you").

So the only question left is, was he reasonable in believing the gun was real? And Ive yet to hear that the gun looked like a SUPER SOAKER.... Day glow green with a great big water tank that made it OBVIOUS it wasnt a real gun.... By all accounts, it LOOKED LIKE A REAL GUN.

THAT is the law. Nothing in there about "unless they are a police officer, in which case they are to employ superhuman bullet dodging abilities or just 'take one for the team'."

Thank you, well said! :thumbsup:

IrishJoe3
05-12-2009, 11:50 AM
No, I'm being sarcastic and saying that the cop should have used better judgement. Sorry, all cops aren't heros. Yes, I hold them to a higher standard. Don't like it? Sorry.

I don't think I'll get anywhere, but ROLE-PLAY TIME!!!

-You're a Deputy.
-You're dispatched to reports of a male brandishing a firearm in Ghettoville.
-You arrive on scene, and observe a young adult carrying a black, semi-automatic handgun.
-You of course take what cover you can, draw down on the subject and order him to drop the weapon.
-Subject does not obey your instructions, and still holds the gun.
-Fellow Deputies arrive, draw down and take cover.
-Subject does not obey instructions, and still holds the gun.
-you're thinking of the four Oakland PD officers gunned down, the three Pittsburgh PD officers gunned down, and your kids.
-The subject does not obey instructions, and still holds the gun.
-The subject points the gun at you.
:eek::eek:WHAT DO YOU DO?! :eek::eek:

If you're like most of the posters here and decide to defend yourself, that would be a good choice.

Or, you can hold your fire until you are 110% that the subject actually means you harm. Law enforcement funerals are a big deal, with the bagpipes and procession. You might make the front page of the local paper. The down side though is that a week or so after the funeral, the only people that will remember or even care that you existed is your family. The choice is yours to live with.

Unfortunately, if you choose to defend yourself, as is typical in today's day and age, you'll be slandered and ridiculed for having the audacity to defend yourself. If the race angle can be worked it will, attorneys investigate you for a potential history of use of force, and regardless of how "good" a shoot it is, the family WILL sue you.

And with that, Cops are people too! :D

MasterYong
05-12-2009, 12:17 PM
I don't think I'll get anywhere, but ROLE-PLAY TIME!!!

-You're a Deputy.
-You're dispatched to reports of a male brandishing a firearm in Ghettoville.
-You arrive on scene, and observe a young adult carrying a black, semi-automatic handgun.
-You of course take what cover you can, draw down on the subject and order him to drop the weapon.
-Subject does not obey your instructions, and still holds the gun.
-Fellow Deputies arrive, draw down and take cover.
-Subject does not obey instructions, and still holds the gun.
-you're thinking of the four Oakland PD officers gunned down, the three Pittsburgh PD officers gunned down, and your kids.
-The subject does not obey instructions, and still holds the gun.
-The subject points the gun at you.
:eek::eek:WHAT DO YOU DO?! :eek::eek:

If you're like most of the posters here and decide to defend yourself, that would be a good choice.

Or, you can hold your fire until you are 110% that the subject actually means you harm. Law enforcement funerals are a big deal, with the bagpipes and procession. You might make the front page of the local paper. The down side though is that a week or so after the funeral, the only people that will remember or even care that you existed is your family. The choice is yours to live with.

Unfortunately, if you choose to defend yourself, as is typical in today's day and age, you'll be slandered and ridiculed for having the audacity to defend yourself. If the race angle can be worked it will, attorneys investigate you for a potential history of use of force, and regardless of how "good" a shoot it is, the family WILL sue you.

And with that, Cops are people too! :D

You're using WAY too much logic here, buddy.

You can't really argue with one of the "ZOMG wont somebuddy think of teh children" types. Some ppl just automatically demonize anyone that hurts a child, even if it's justified and unavoidable, no matter what you tell them they're not going to listen.

We recently had a case in my area where a kid was charged with murder because he got into a wreck while drunk driving and his passengers died. The passengers were drunk, too- all of them tried to drive but the one that got in the accident decided to get behind the wheel because he thought he was the least drunk. The kids that died made a conscious, informed decision to disregard their own safety and he got charged with murder. It's not like he killed someone in another car that didn't have a choice. But, all because of the "wont someone think of the children" types he was charged. They later reduced the charge to vehicular manslaughter (which IMHO is still too stiff) but they tried REALLY hard to make the murder charge stick.

Publius
05-12-2009, 12:43 PM
There is no need for a toy to look exactly like a real firearms...

Back in the 18th century, William Pitt the Younger said "necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom." In other words, every freedom-limiting law was justified on the basis of being "necessary." Now we've (d)evolved to the point that lack of necessity is an increasingly-heard plea for infringements of human freedom. "No one needs X" or "there's no need for X" is increasingly accepted as an argument to actually ban X. They don't need to claim "we need this law" anymore, just "you don't need to be free of this law." Interesting change of presumptions.

hntnnut
05-12-2009, 1:22 PM
so has a picture of the "toy gun" been released yet. i want to see what this moron pointed at the deputy to get shot.
Yes they showed a pic last night on the news and indeed it does look real.

Richard

CaptainGlock
05-12-2009, 2:27 PM
Im going to get flamed for this.... BUT THAT should be illegal.... They should NOT be making "Toy" guns that look that realistic. Its an accident waiting to happen.

Any one of those gets pointed any where near me, and my CCW gun is coming out.... If you dont drop it fast enough, Im unloading the gun into your sternum.

If we're going to be expanding the rights of CCW and public self defense, we may have to accept some responsibility that we need to make ACCIDENTAL use of those rights less likely by not making toy guns look so real... I dont want to second guess myself as hesitation can mean death in a uof situation. But now seeing that picture I dont know how I couldnt...

Consider yourself flamed! :D

How would making realistic-looking toy guns illegal to prevent tragic shootings be all that different from making real guns illegal to prevent tragic shootings? In both cases, the real problem is human behavior, not the existence of certain inanimate objects!

When I was a kid, we had realistic toy guns. We, however, did not point them at cops! :eek:

RomanDad
05-12-2009, 2:52 PM
Consider yourself flamed! :D

How would making realistic-looking toy guns illegal to prevent tragic shootings be all that different from making real guns illegal to prevent tragic shootings? In both cases, the real problem is human behavior, not the existence of certain inanimate objects!

When I was a kid, we had realistic toy guns. We, however, did not point them at cops! :eek:

Simple, the real gun serves a LEGITIMATE constitutionally protected purpose. Self defense of its owner. The TOY gun serves no such purpose, and its ENTIRE reason for existing is BECAUSE it looks like the REAL article. (nobody is arguing that airsoft guns should be eliminated... Just the ones that are DEAD RINGERS for the real thing).

WHAT PURPOSE IS SERVED by realistic fake guns that cant be served by NON REALISTIC Looking toy guns? And does that purpose outweigh the harm caused by them??? Both real and fake guns can cause the loss of life if misused.... but Real guns ALSO SAVE INNOCENT LIVES ... So the harm is mitigated by the benefit.... You pull that fake gun in a situation where you need the real thing, well.... We know who wins and who loses.

All that realistic looking fake gun does is make it more difficult for someone like me, someone who CARRIES a REAL gun, to determine if the weapon being pointed at me is a threat or not....

Believe it or not.... I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT ANYBODY. I would if I had to. No question in my mind.

But if I then found out that the young person pointing the gun at me was a developmentally disabled kid with a toy gun... Screw it.... My life as I know it would be over. That's something my conscience would never be able to get past.

Dark Paladin
05-12-2009, 3:19 PM
(nobody is arguing that airsoft guns should be eliminated... Just the ones that are DEAD RINGERS for the real thing).

Again, 99% of airsoft ARE DEAD RINGERS for the real thing.

WHAT PURPOSE IS SERVED by realistic fake guns that cant be served by NON REALISTIC Looking toy guns? And does that purpose outweigh the harm caused by them???

Like I said previously in this thread: milsim.

Both real and fake guns can cause the loss of life if misused.... but Real guns ALSO SAVE INNOCENT LIVES ... So the harm is mitigated by the benefit....

And fake guns can be used effectively in force-on-force training. Training leads to saving lives. So does the benefit outweigh the harm?

You pull that fake gun in a situation where you need the real thing, well.... We know who wins and who loses.

Any idiot who pulls a fake gun in your hypothetical situation takes responsibility for their own actions. They made their choice. You must then make yours. You did NOT force/coerce/entice them to pull a fake gun on you. They did so on their own accord. Whether they were taught correctly between what they chose was right or wrong is not at issue here, nor is it your responsibility. (Incidentally. . . isn't that what ABC did for their "special" on concealed carry on college campus? Gave a few students blank-firing guns and then ambushed them in the classroom with gun wielding attackers?)

So what if a developmentally disabled kid was shot because he charged cops while wielding a rubber knife? Should we be banning rubber knives next? What about plastic baseball bats? Where will this silliness end?

Once again you are focusing only on the tool, instead of the parents/guardians that are suppose to be minding the kid.

scr83jp
05-12-2009, 3:29 PM
Looks like the kid was playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and made the near fatal mistake of pointing the gun at the cops.

I'm guessing the liberal media will point fingers at toy guns instead of police training, but I'd like to hear from some of the cops on this forum regarding this.

Just so there are no misunderstandings, I have the highest respect for the LA County Sheriff department, in fact I specifically opened LA Guns in their jurisdiction because of the security and professionalism I felt they would provide. The dozens of Deputies and Detectives I have dealt with over the years have confirmed that I made the right decision.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=172349 That kid was NWTT.(not wrapped too tight) When I was a juvi probation officer I met lots of otl wannabe bad guys in nys & ca.The one thing I really liked about NYS law at 16 if they commit a crime they go to the county jail and to adult court.It straightened out a lot of the youthful offenders .

CaptainGlock
05-12-2009, 3:49 PM
Again, 99% of airsoft ARE DEAD RINGERS for the real thing.



Like I said previously in this thread: milsim.



And fake guns can be used effectively in force-on-force training. Training leads to saving lives. So does the benefit outweigh the harm?



Any idiot who pulls a fake gun in your hypothetical situation takes responsibility for their own actions. They made their choice. You must then make yours. You did NOT force/coerce/entice them to pull a fake gun on you. They did so on their own accord. Whether they were taught correctly between what they chose was right or wrong is not at issue here, nor is it your responsibility. (Incidentally. . . isn't that what ABC did for their "special" on concealed carry on college campus? Gave a few students blank-firing guns and then ambushed them in the classroom with gun wielding attackers?)

So what if a developmentally disabled kid was shot because he charged cops while wielding a rubber knife? Should we be banning rubber knives next? What about plastic baseball bats? Where will this silliness end?

Once again you are focusing only on the tool, instead of the parents/guardians that are suppose to be minding the kid.

:thumbsup: Good post! If the whole problem is behavior, it is the behavior that needs to be changed. Trying to make the behavior irrelevant by legislating the look of toys is bassakwards! So is trying to make the behavior of criminals irrelevant by legislating away the legal right to purchase firearms by law-abiding citizens. Both stem from the same mindset: the mere existence and availability of the objects is the problem, not the behavior which results in their misuse.

In poor light, even an "unrealistic" toy gun may look like the real thing. If the toy is bright orange or transparent, a kid could choose to paint it black to make it look more realistic--not necessarily for some bad purpose but just to make his play more realistic. As a kid, I wanted my toy guns to look like the real thing.

I seem to recall some famous bad guy carved a "gun" from soap and painted it with black shoe polish in order to escape from jail.

TheBundo
05-12-2009, 10:12 PM
:thumbsup: Good post! If the whole problem is behavior, it is the behavior that needs to be changed. Trying to make the behavior irrelevant by legislating the look of toys is bassakwards! So is trying to make the behavior of criminals irrelevant by legislating away the legal right to purchase firearms by law-abiding citizens. Both stem from the same mindset: the mere existence and availability of the objects is the problem, not the behavior which results in their misuse.

In poor light, even an "unrealistic" toy gun may look like the real thing. If the toy is bright orange or transparent, a kid could choose to paint it black to make it look more realistic--not necessarily for some bad purpose but just to make his play more realistic. As a kid, I wanted my toy guns to look like the real thing.

I seem to recall some famous bad guy carved a "gun" from soap and painted it with black shoe polish in order to escape from jail.


Dillinger

Hamster16
05-12-2009, 10:21 PM
just got done watching the 10 o clock news and the boy has a lawyer and is out of the hospital. he was interviewed by the fox 11 news team and he looked fine and even showed his wound to the news crew. he also said that the cop said to drop the god**** gun and he dropped the gun and was shot after he dropped it. he also didnt appear to have any type of mental or learning disability but i guess one can not tell based on 2 minute interview. either way only the cops there and the boy know what really happened. hopefully the truth will come out.

ZRX61
05-12-2009, 10:25 PM
he also didnt appear to have any type of mental or learning disability but i guess one can not tell based on 2 minute interview.
I'm not so sure, he didn't appear to be playing with a full deck to me....

HowardW56
05-12-2009, 10:44 PM
just got done watching the 10 o clock news and the boy has a lawyer and is out of the hospital. he was interviewed by the fox 11 news team and he looked fine and even showed his wound to the news crew. he also said that the cop said to drop the god**** gun and he dropped the gun and was shot after he dropped it. he also didnt appear to have any type of mental or learning disability but i guess one can not tell based on 2 minute interview. either way only the cops there and the boy know what really happened. hopefully the truth will come out.


Well, that said it all, he has a lawyer, what else did you expect him to say...

Josh3239
05-12-2009, 11:05 PM
Yes they showed a pic last night on the news and indeed it does look real.

Richard

Just saw it on Fox News. It was made to look like a Colt 1911. They interviewed the kid and he said that he plans to sue the city and claimed that the officer's yelled to "drop the damn gun", he dropped it and then they shot him. He said he was playing cops and robbers. That kid looked much older than 15.

Scotty
05-12-2009, 11:15 PM
WHAT PURPOSE IS SERVED by realistic fake guns that cant be served by NON REALISTIC Looking toy guns?

Realistic fake guns allow you to do realistic training with a gun that you normally use to defend yourself. LE uses blue guns all the time to do training. It allows them to be more realistic in their training without introducing the risk of accidentally having a live weapon.

Many shooting schools are using airsoft guns for doing force on force training. This allows you to use a gun similar to what you carry. The airsoft guns do operate exactly the same as your real gun minus the recoil. It also makes doing force on force training more feasible and not require high tech devices or facilities.

Airsoft is also widely used by IPSC shooters as a way to practice when you get home from work and don't have time to go to a range. Many people have spent as much money in their airsoft guns as their real guns to make them feel exactly the same.

There are legitimate uses for realistic looking toys.

retired
05-13-2009, 12:31 AM
i do understand and you dont have to explain why. i guess that was a poor choice of words to explain that i wish this officer the best. sorry for the lack of or more thought out statement. also sorry for being off topic.

Sounds good Hamster; thank you. Take care.


Stormfeather, I bet you might know that unnamed kid right.:D

Gee, the kid has a lawyer; what a surprise. I believe I may have mentioned something about that earlier, but I'm sure no one is surprised.

MasterYong, may I ask what city that incident occurred in where the passengers died. Thanks.

cousinkix1953
05-13-2009, 12:45 AM
I looked at the Johnny Eagle M-14 picture on fleabay and that was not what I had. Also had a full sized pump shotgun that took water in the butt stock and with each rack of the pump you got a good blast of water.

I am sure it was an M1 rifle, my buddies Dad was the Colonel in charge of the ROTC over at UCLA and we had many chances to check out the armory.
Somebody is trying to sell his AIRSOFT Mauser 98K rifle for $500.00 on EBAY tonight. It even has phony byf 43 proofs on the chamber. This piracy has gone too far. One damned fool got killed, when he brandished his Nazi rifle at the Seattle police on New Years eve. They didn't know that it was just loaded with blanks until after they killed this loser.

I didn't pay that much for a real one and 100 rounds of 8mm ammo. I can't believe that people are stupid enough to over pay for a bunch of toys. Those realistic toy guns do more harm than good...

TheCilician
05-13-2009, 1:01 AM
If you point a real looking gun at someone else with a gun in a threatening manner you should expect to get shot. End of story, there is no debate here.

I'll have to agree....learn the rules of engagement. He's 15, not 5.

Josh3239
05-13-2009, 1:22 AM
Those realistic toy guns do more harm than good...

Why don't you try telling that to the thousands of airsofters and paintballers, seeing as paintball is joining in on the replicas. You also might want to run that by personal instructors and LE instructors. I'm sure they will all give you an earful.

Seriously, one idiot misuses a toy so everyone should suffer. Someone explain to me how that isn't the same Brady thought process that the Bradys use to try to take our guns?

Remember that guy who got shot for holding an orange that a LE thought was a grenade. Why don't we ban oranges and any other foods that are shaped like grenades. After are, all they do is look like grenades and we can always buy other foods. We aren't dependent on oranges or grenade shaped foods for survivle.

nooner
05-13-2009, 1:42 AM
I find it more disturbing that you would stop to ask questions...


Yo homie! What set are you from???

That thing real? Really???

<hey, what's that burning sensation...am I having heartburn again?? DAMM that pizza...>The only burning was in the kid since the kid had a toy.

nooner
05-13-2009, 1:47 AM
You consider ordering someone to drop their weapon, then them pointing their gun at you, then you opening fire as "shoot first ask questions later"?And then what happened? A kid with a toy gets shot.

Are you crazy? Nope. Are you?

They ordered him to drop it, he pointed what officers thought was a real weapon at them. What, the kid thought the cops were joking?!?Who knows.

Don't even pretend that if you were in the officer's shoes and a kid with a gun ignored your orders and pointed his gun at you that you wouldn't shoot.You don't know the situation and neither do I. Was the cop 5 feet from a kid with a gun or was he a relatively safe distance with his car in-between him and the kid? We don't know and may never know "the truth".

Dont Tread on Me
05-13-2009, 2:55 AM
Given criminals are installing shotguns in super soakers, I'd not expect a LEO to risk his life based on orange paint.

http://www.njptoa.org/uploads/Supersoaker3.gif

For those of you who are doubting the cop's actions, have you actually worked force on force with sims? Have you experience how action beats reaction? Do you want LEOs giving a man with a gun a chance so he gets the opportunity to run off, maybe force his way into your house?

What are you going to do if you are faced with someone in your house with a gun in his/her hand even if the tip is painted orange?

n6nvr
05-13-2009, 3:07 AM
Does anyone know the exact story? The media is saying there are 2 stories about this incident. The witnesses' side and the officer's side.

At least two sides, the news I saw indicated the kid is not mentally up to snuff, and the Grandmother and news reporter tried to get him to tell his story and he changed it a few times in the one interview even after coaching. The family is going to have to rely on a sympathetic jury because the kid will never make it on the stand. Going to be a lot of money sopent and their lawyer might make some, but I sure don't see how they can get past this at the first go around and even if they do on appeal.

Dark Paladin
05-13-2009, 8:46 AM
I didn't pay that much for a real one and 100 rounds of 8mm ammo. I can't believe that people stupid enough to over pay for a bunch of toys. Those realistic toy guns do more harm than good...

The FUD displayed here by calgunners worry me far more than the actual anti-2A people. Seriously, just because *YOU* don't use it, means it should be banned? I guess living within the draconian PRK does eventually brainwash you. . .

RomanDad
05-13-2009, 9:12 AM
Realistic fake guns allow you to do realistic training with a gun that you normally use to defend yourself. LE uses blue guns all the time to do training.
Exactly.... Theyre robins egg blue.... And obviously made of hardened rubber... You can tell theyre a training replica from a mile away (which is the POINT- so there is no MIXUP).

What purpose is served by having the airsoft replicas have the SAME look down to wood grain aks? There is nothing in training or simulation that COLOR matters... One can use their imagination (after all, they using their imagination that the projectiles are real bullets).

7x57
05-13-2009, 9:16 AM
What purpose is served by having the airsoft replicas have the SAME look down to wood grain aks?

You're not getting the point, so let's be blunt. It doesn't matter whether you think there is a purpose or not. Other people have the liberty to have a different opinion than you and the responsibility to suffer the consequences if they choose poorly. You have no business crying and running to the nanny state to stop the bad people who don't share your opinion and keep them from hurting themselves by pointing a realistic toy at someone willing to defend themselves (whether they are LE or not is immaterial when a weapon is pointed at them).

That's how we got here in the first place. Leave 'em be and don't try to solve stupid with regulation.

7x57

RomanDad
05-13-2009, 9:48 AM
You're not getting the point, so let's be blunt. It doesn't matter whether you think there is a purpose or not. Other people have the liberty to have a different opinion than you and the responsibility to suffer the consequences if they choose poorly. You have no business crying and running to the nanny state to stop the bad people who don't share your opinion and keep them from hurting themselves by pointing a realistic toy at someone willing to defend themselves (whether they are LE or not is immaterial when a weapon is pointed at them).

That's how we got here in the first place. Leave 'em be and don't try to solve stupid with regulation.

7x57

No... YOU AREN'T GETTING IT, SO LET ME BE BLUNT.

I'm not worried about "fixing stupid" or preventing other people from hurting themselves with these.... If that were my point you would be right.... Its none of my business.... BUT THAT'S NOT MY POINT.

I'm not feeling overly empathetic for the kid with the fake gun. Either he (if he has the normal brain function of a 15 year old) is to blame for his actions, or his grandmother is (if he doesn't have such functions) if she let him out of the house with a realistic looking toy gun without considering the inherent dangers in that, or his parents, or whoever is responsible for him if hes not all there. Still, none of that is my business and nothing anybody can do will fix any of that.

I don't want fake guns, to look like fake guns, because I'm overly worried about what happens to the PEOPLE HOLDING the fake guns. I don't relate to them. I don't own a realistic looking fake gun. And my son will never have one if I have anything to say about it.... So that's NOT MY CONCERN. I think I've been pretty consistent. You point something like that at somebody, you better expect to be shot and killed.

No.... The person I'm worried about suffering the consequences from these, IS ME.

ME as a lawful gun owner. Me as a Lawful CCW holder. ME who if I had something like that pointed at me would open fire in a HEARTBEAT. And me as a person with a normal level of conscience and caring who would be totally devastated if I found out I killed a child who didn't know any better, who was playing with a toy.

I am feeling empathy for the man who shot the kid with the fake gun. Because I can very easily put myself in his shoes. And thats why Im against these things looking that realistic.

Dark Paladin
05-13-2009, 10:04 AM
.... So that's NOT MY CONCERN. . . . No.... The person I'm worried about suffering the consequences from these, IS ME.

Great that airsoft isn't your concern. But apparently your concern outweighs my freedom to responsibly pursue an enjoyable hobby unfettered by needless regulations? Because that is the point we will ultimately drill down to, and it is the exact same argument the anti-2A people uses.

HowardW56
05-13-2009, 10:07 AM
This has become more heated that it should be. The entire situation is very unfortunate, and I'm sure very difficult for the Deputy involved. The teenager suffered an injury that was potentially deadly, but fortunately was not.

As I see it, the real issue here is personal responsibility and common sense. Somebody bought and gave the realistic looking toy to the boy, did they bother to explain to him that the similarity to a real firearm is not readily distinguishable? We are not talking about a small child, this boy was 15 and from what I have read not impaired in any way.

The manufacturers will make whatever products the parents will buy, if it is too realistic looking, don't buy it and give it to your child to play with.

Does anyone else remember the old Crossman BB pistol that looked very realistic? I had one as a kid, there were similar situations with those too... There were robberies committed with them as there have been with other replicas.

Is anyone responsible for his or her own actions anymore?

7x57
05-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I am feeling empathy for the man who shot the kid with the fake gun. Because I can very easily put myself in his shoes. And thats why Im against these things looking that realistic.

In other words, your emotional reaction leads you to run to the state to fix the problem with regulation. I'm not too concerned about the precise nature of the emotional distress that causes you to ask the state to solve your emotional distress. I am only concerned that you are willing to ask the government to not only take the liberty you choose to give up but are also willing to ask the government to seize my liberty by force.

Once again, that's how we got all the gun control that we have--people asked the government to regulate whatever it is they fear. You are not likely to be more distressed over the unfortunate officer than other people are with the existence of guns in the first place. They did the same thing about *their* emotional distress--they asked the government to forcibly take other people's liberty.

If you want to promote legislation, then work for getting the remaining part of your self-defense rights--presumption of innocence outside the home and immunity from civil lawsuits if not convicted of a crime. Protecting the law-abiding from criminal attack (and that's what civil suits over justifiable homicide are, government-sponsored terrorism and theft) *is* the government's job because it's a refusal to be manipulated into being an accomplice of crime. That would mean that while still (rightly) distressed over a lawful shooting that didn't need to happen, you can't be sued by the family of a gang-banger who thought it would be funny to commit assault with a toy weapon (or any other weapon).

7x57

Publius
05-13-2009, 11:22 AM
Exactly.... Theyre robins egg blue.... And obviously made of hardened rubber... You can tell theyre a training replica from a mile away (which is the POINT- so there is no MIXUP).

On a dark night with poor lighting (when your eyes' color receptors are at minimal effectiveness so you're nearly seeing in black and white), are you sure you could tell the difference between a blue gun made of hardened rubber and a metal gun with a gray finish? Within tiny period of time you have to determine whether the gun-shaped object you see is a threat or not?

There is nothing in training or simulation that COLOR matters...

You mean in training or simulation you can camouflage yourself as well with a bright blue gun as you can with a flat black one?

7x57
05-13-2009, 12:01 PM
Perhaps we should ask the CA national guard if they're willing to do their OPFOR training with big bright playground colored non-rifles. Be sure to put the question to a drill sergeant and report on his colorful use of language.

What, you want to permit the government to do things we can't? Glad we got that out in the open.

7x57

Scotty
05-13-2009, 12:31 PM
What purpose is served by having the airsoft replicas have the SAME look down to wood grain aks? There is nothing in training or simulation that COLOR matters... One can use their imagination (after all, they using their imagination that the projectiles are real bullets).

It also functions like a real gun which aids in training and simulations. If you carry a gun with a safety, you would want to train with a gun that has a safety. If you carry a gun with a paddle mag release, you would want to train with a gun that has the same mag release.

That fact is, it really doesn't matter what you have in your hand. If you make you present your hand like a gun as if you were drawing on someone, odds are you will get shot. There have been similar instance of cop shooting someone who was unarmed, just like what Clint Eastwood did in Gran Turino.

DDT
05-13-2009, 12:34 PM
No.... The person I'm worried about suffering the consequences from these, IS ME.

ME as a lawful gun owner. Me as a Lawful CCW holder. ME who if I had something like that pointed at me would open fire in a HEARTBEAT. And me as a person with a normal level of conscience and caring who would be totally devastated if I found out I killed a child who didn't know any better, who was playing with a toy.

Perhaps it is better to outlaw and regulate firearms than harmless toys. If it weren't for people carrying handguns for "personal protection" these poor kids wouldn't be in mortal danger for the mere act of playing.

Now, obviously you know this isn't actually how I feel, but can you not see how the exact reasoning behind your desire to regulate/ban realistic toy guns could be turned against you in a completely consistent argument?

Don't outlaw (toy) guns outlaw behavior that some people undertake using (toy) guns. It works nicely with or without the (toy)

Would you also advocate outlawing "realistic" looking knives?

sega18
05-13-2009, 12:40 PM
I think the LEO in this situation did the right thing. He had a right to protect himself from a perceived danger. However, I do not believe that toy guns should be banned. There are many people who like to play with them and do military simulation stuff. And that's their right. What I think should happen is that people should be more responsible with what they choose to spend their money on. Too bad natural selection is in the can.

laguns
05-13-2009, 12:52 PM
The appropriate response is to fall back to your training...

When confronted with a gun, fire and continue firing until the threat is neutralized... The goal is to make it home..

Again, I have no opinion on this shooting yet, but I thought the goal of the police was to "protect and to serve".

Smokeybehr
05-13-2009, 12:57 PM
Again, I have no opinion on this shooting yet, but I thought the goal of the police was to "protect and to serve".

You should already know that it's not "To Serve and Protect", but "To Harrass and Annoy". :D

IrishJoe3
05-13-2009, 1:09 PM
I thought the goal of the police was to "protect and to serve".
And go home

cousinkix1953
05-13-2009, 4:08 PM
Why don't you try telling that to the thousands of airsofters and paintballers, seeing as paintball is joining in on the replicas. You also might want to run that by personal instructors and LE instructors. I'm sure they will all give you an earful.

Seriously, one idiot misuses a toy so everyone should suffer. Someone explain to me how that isn't the same Brady thought process that the Bradys use to try to take our guns?

Remember that guy who got shot for holding an orange that a LE thought was a grenade. Why don't we ban oranges and any other foods that are shaped like grenades. After are, all they do is look like grenades and we can always buy other foods. We aren't dependent on oranges or grenade shaped foods for survivle.
IDIOTS who abuse toy guns will do the same thing with the real ones. Trigger happy cops have shot people armed cellular phones and other odd things, so this is a different issue.

There is NO good reason to manufacture a toy gun that cannot be easily identified when sitting next to it's real cousins. I have a wooden WW-2 Springfield training rifle with the name of a military base on the steel buttplate. Only a moron would mistake it for the real thing...

DDT
05-13-2009, 4:10 PM
I have a wooden WW-2 Springfield training rifle with the name of a military base on the steel buttplate. Only a moron would mistake it for the real thing...

2 weeks.


ETA: http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=109380&catid=339

Dark Paladin
05-13-2009, 4:22 PM
IDIOTS who abuse toy guns will do the same thing with the real ones.

So by your logic, we should be banning real ones then. Solves all the problems, no?

There is NO good reason to manufacture a toy gun that cannot be easily identified when sitting next to it's real cousins.

Your inability to accept the various good reasons that have already been listed in this thread does not constitute justified cause to limit my liberties and freedoms.

DDT
05-13-2009, 4:30 PM
There is NO good reason to manufacture a toy gun that cannot be easily identified when sitting next to it's real cousins.

Your desire to require someone provide you with a good reason for every product manufactured scares me. Your demand for a "good reason" for a TOY to be made is every bit as inappropriate as the legislature outlawing a gun because the stock is black.

Josh3239
05-13-2009, 4:40 PM
There is NO good reason to manufacture a toy gun that cannot be easily identified when sitting next to it's real cousins.

Seeing as you ignored the rest of my post I'll say again, thousands of airsofters, paintballers, personal instructors, military instructors, and police instructors would probably have a hard time swallowing that. Rather there is no good reason to ban them, especially being that idiots can misuse toy guns just like they can misuse anything else whether it be real guns, toy guns, real knives, training knives, real batons, training batons, real grenades, or dummy grenades.

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-13-2009, 8:56 PM
Anything that resembles a gun needs to be treated and responded to like a gun. Sad that kids are caught in the middle of that.

Scotty
05-14-2009, 12:11 PM
I bet these kids know not to point an airsoft gun at a cop.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/05/14/us/14explorers2-600a.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2

This was posted in another thread.

JWC6
05-14-2009, 2:31 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=6810113


GSW to the back?

CA_SHARPSHOOTER
05-14-2009, 2:59 PM
yah then the kid said the cop put him up against the wall and shot at him again? that sounds so ridiculous he's just trying to keep from being grounded by his grandma:(

kalguns
05-14-2009, 3:24 PM
The kid deserved it!
I have bought my sons Air soft guns that look real. He knows: NEVER EVER POINT IT AT SOME ONE WHO IS NOT PLAYING WITH YOU!
Thatís bad parenting. The parents should be arrested for shooting the kid

MasterYong
05-14-2009, 3:24 PM
If he was told to get up against the wall, and he did, placing his palms flat on the wall, and THEN the officer shot again but MISSED??? Wouldn't there be a second shell casing and a hole in the wall?

This is BS. No cop's gonna shoot someone and ask that they stand against a wall- nor is any kid gonna get SHOT then stay standing!

/I would have cried like a little baby I think if I'd been shot. I hope to never find out!

squatting_caveboy
05-14-2009, 5:47 PM
Agree - a 15 year old ain't so innocent. Kinda odd that he was playing "cops and robbers". Perhaps he was planning on using his "toy" for other purposes??? Hmmmmm....Lancaster is a creepy place and a 15 year old should know better than to f*%k with LE. Too bad for the kid but sounds like it wasn't a lethal blow.

retired
05-15-2009, 12:10 AM
Again, I have no opinion on this shooting yet, but I thought the goal of the police was to "protect and to serve".

Actually, that is LAPD's goal. LASD's is; "A tradition of service." It is on the sides of every patrol car.:D

A guy I worked with is the one who came up with that in a dept. wide contest year ago.

Also, when you make that statement: I have no opinion on this shooting yet, but I thought the goal of the police was to "protect and to serve"., You are stating your opinion.

laguns
05-18-2009, 1:32 PM
No opinon. My response was to Howards post stating:

"When confronted with a gun, fire and continue firing until the threat is neutralized... The goal is to make it home.."

PutTogether
05-18-2009, 6:51 PM
No... YOU AREN'T GETTING IT, SO LET ME BE BLUNT.

I'm not worried about "fixing stupid" or preventing other people from hurting themselves with these.... If that were my point you would be right.... Its none of my business.... BUT THAT'S NOT MY POINT.

I'm not feeling overly empathetic for the kid with the fake gun. Either he (if he has the normal brain function of a 15 year old) is to blame for his actions, or his grandmother is (if he doesn't have such functions) if she let him out of the house with a realistic looking toy gun without considering the inherent dangers in that, or his parents, or whoever is responsible for him if hes not all there. Still, none of that is my business and nothing anybody can do will fix any of that.

I don't want fake guns, to look like fake guns, because I'm overly worried about what happens to the PEOPLE HOLDING the fake guns. I don't relate to them. I don't own a realistic looking fake gun. And my son will never have one if I have anything to say about it.... So that's NOT MY CONCERN. I think I've been pretty consistent. You point something like that at somebody, you better expect to be shot and killed.

No.... The person I'm worried about suffering the consequences from these, IS ME.

ME as a lawful gun owner. Me as a Lawful CCW holder. ME who if I had something like that pointed at me would open fire in a HEARTBEAT. And me as a person with a normal level of conscience and caring who would be totally devastated if I found out I killed a child who didn't know any better, who was playing with a toy.

I am feeling empathy for the man who shot the kid with the fake gun. Because I can very easily put myself in his shoes. And thats why Im against these things looking that realistic.


Wouldn't you have the same feeling of guilt if a kid pointed a real gun at you? What about a real, but empty gun? Should empty guns be banned? Or should people (all people, age not an excuse) be taught to treat an empty gun, a loaded gun, or a toy gun, exactly the same way?

If you choose to carry a gun, and potentially use one, logic states you must be prepared to accept potential negative consequences along with the positive. Don't have one, potentially got robbed and killed. Do have one, potentially have to shoot someone who you later find out was armed only with a squirt gun. You HAVE to pick one or the other, no matter how little you like the choice.

I've read a lot of your posts. By anything else I've read, you seem like a solid, normal, stand up guy. I think in the back of your mind you know that banning realistic airsoft guns isn't a valid solution, and are just reacting to a sad, tragic shooting of a kid.

r08ert209cali
05-19-2009, 7:59 AM
15 old enough to know better and too young to die. there for why would you point anything resembling a gun at anyone armed or not. If someone points a toy gun at me I set them straight right away. I dont care if its hot pink. If you point a toy at me and I dont know its a toy your going down hard. If I had a ccw I would shoot to kill.