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serkerone
05-11-2009, 7:39 AM
would you use them? and is there any legal issues if you still do?

i also have a bunch on winchester silver tips for 45 im just tryna figure out what would work best... but then again .45 ball ammo works well too

Colt Jackson
05-11-2009, 8:12 AM
I have a box of .45 talons and was told once buy a gun shop ownwer that if I shot somebody breaking into my house I could be sued for using them!! I would not use them for home defense, just keep them around for IF the S@$% ever hits the fan, then there are no rules. Use Hydrashocks or Corbons.

Vin496
05-11-2009, 8:23 AM
Of course you could use them, why not?

It is/was a commercially available round. The only supposed issue you may have is when you use your own reloaded ammunition for HD.

By the way Black Talon are almost the same thing as Winchester SXT. They supposedly just changed the name and got rid of the black coating due to bad press the round was getting.

Vin496
05-11-2009, 8:24 AM
I have a box of .45 talons and was told once buy a gun shop ownwer that if I shot somebody breaking into my house I could be sued for using them!! I would not use them for home defense, just keep them around for IF the S@$% ever hits the fan, then there are no rules. Use Hydrashocks or Corbons.

Complete and udder FUD!!!!

kermit315
05-11-2009, 8:25 AM
Its FUD. You can use them. They were the target of a smear campaign based on their color/name. Winchester voluntarily pulled them, renamed them to SXT (same exact thing) and put them back on the shelf.

They are fine to use, however there are rounds out there with better ballistics today that you could also use.

HowardW56
05-11-2009, 8:52 AM
Of course you could use them, why not?

It is/was a commercially available round. The only supposed issue you may have is when you use your own reloaded ammunition for HD.

By the way Black Talon are almost the same thing as Winchester SXT. They supposedly just changed the name and got rid of the black coating due to bad press the round was getting.


Winchester "Same eXact Thing"

DVSmith
05-11-2009, 8:56 AM
Funny that after all these years this same fud comes back around every so often.

I would suggest that the age of the ammo might put it outside the window of what I would use for SD. Also, more modern designs are more effective. Buy something current and use that old stuff at the range (if they allow it).

Casual_Shooter
05-11-2009, 8:57 AM
You can use them, but have to paint them pink with blue puppy paw-prints and rename them "puppy paw-print pistol" ammo. That way they sound "cute" and not so dangerous.

Colt Jackson
05-11-2009, 9:11 AM
Well I am glad to know I can use these. I was told this many years ago and have not thought to see if they were ok to use. Thanks!

sorensen440
05-11-2009, 9:14 AM
The only reason I would not use them is they are too expensive to run a couple hundred through to make sure my gun likes them

Fantasma
05-11-2009, 9:51 AM
You can use them, but have to paint them pink with blue puppy paw-prints and rename them "puppy paw-print pistol" ammo. That way they sound "cute" and not so dangerous.

:D:D:thumbsup:

Miltiades
05-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Black Talons are strictly collectors' items now. Their value is based on urban legend rather than facts. You can't shoot people with them because it would be too cruel, and you would be sued! You can't use them at the range because they would go right through the backstop, the cinderblock wall, and several cars in the parking lot! You can't be caught with them by the police or you will be charged with conspiracy to commit mayhem!

Just flush them down the toilet and buy some regular ammo.

Oh wait, nobody has regular ammo in stock because of the shortage and hoarding.

Better just forget all my advice.

DNA
05-11-2009, 11:23 AM
They're still good to go, although I would suggest keeping them as the collector's item and picking yourself up some "fresh" ammo, like the SXTs.

Dan

AdamM
05-11-2009, 1:03 PM
Federal HST's FTW :thumbsup:

Z ME FLY
05-11-2009, 1:14 PM
Hmmm... this is a good read for me, I always wondered about the Black Talon ammo I see for my 9mm. It's like $1 a bullet! LOL

AMC
05-11-2009, 4:45 PM
If this came from the guy at the gun shop, it must be true!

SgtDinosaur
05-11-2009, 5:14 PM
There may be some concern that an overzealous DA would go after you for using them in a righteous shooting. I think it was Mas Ayoob that said you should use whatever your local PD uses because it is completely defensible. Most of the time that probably makes sense because they usually use quality ammo. I don't always follow that advice, but I do use current factory ammo (mainly Corbon and Federal Hydrashoks).

leitung
05-11-2009, 5:20 PM
It's fine to use them, if you legal your legal. I would rather have my Federal HST or Corbon Powerballs however.

boxbro
05-11-2009, 5:23 PM
You can use them, but have to paint them pink with blue puppy paw-prints and rename them "puppy paw-print pistol" ammo. That way they sound "cute" and not so dangerous.

:smilielol5: :rofl:

Ron-Solo
05-11-2009, 5:24 PM
SXT = Super 'X'pansion Talon

Only problem is they are old rounds now and depending on the quality of the storage, they might be unreliable

B Strong
05-11-2009, 5:46 PM
I have a box of .45 talons and was told once buy a gun shop ownwer that if I shot somebody breaking into my house I could be sued for using them!! I would not use them for home defense, just keep them around for IF the S@$% ever hits the fan, then there are no rules. Use Hydrashocks or Corbons.

FUD - too bad this type of misinformation gets passed around by people who should know better.

ghost
05-11-2009, 5:52 PM
keep them in the safe.go buy some hydrashocks and gold dots,use those instead:thumbsup:

CWM4A1
05-11-2009, 5:55 PM
Only Ranger SXT is the "new and improved" Talon, don't get confused with Winchester's "supreme" SXT, as those does not have the same ballistic as Ranger T-series. Winchester has dumped the black coating for quite a while; real "Black Talon" would be over 10 years old easy; not what I would use for self defense/home defense.

My choice of defensive ammo in handgun would be:

Winchester Ranger SXT
Speer Gold Dot
Federal HST

zrock
05-11-2009, 6:03 PM
Win ranger is correct. Change the name and the color.

AJD
05-11-2009, 6:07 PM
Only Ranger SXT is the "new and improved" Talon, don't get confused with Winchester's "supreme" SXT, as those does not have the same ballistic as Ranger T-series. Winchester has dumped the black coating for quite a while; real "Black Talon" would be over 10 years old easy; not what I would use for self defense/home defense.

My choice of defensive ammo in handgun would be:

Winchester Ranger SXT
Speer Gold Dot
Federal HST

+1 on this. Lots of people assume that the SXT is the same as the Ranger SXT and it is not. The SXT is the version marketed to civilians and sold in 25rd boxes. It has a different # of petals and does not perform nearly as well according to the people who have done tests at the Tacticalforums and firearmstactical.com. Ranger SXT is marketed exclusively by Winchester to LE agencies and comes in 50rd boxes. Just because it is only marketed to LE by Winchester does not mean you can't own it though. There are a very few online vendors who will sell to the public. ammunitiontogo.com has carried it in the past but during the ammo buying frenzy it has been out for some time.

aplinker
05-11-2009, 7:20 PM
Sure, you can use them, but you'd be much better off selling them on Gunbroker (even the boxes are worth $) to fools and replacing them with (much better) modern ammo, such as:

Winchester SXT
Federal HST
Speer Gold Dot
Corbon DPX

Modern bonded ammo is better than it was 10, 5 or even 3 years ago.


SXT = Super 'X'pansion Talon


Myth... Winchester says it stands for nothing.

Vin496
05-11-2009, 7:32 PM
Myth... Winchester says it stands for nothing.

Isn't is supposed to stand for Supreme Expansion Technology.

aplinker
05-11-2009, 7:39 PM
Isn't is supposed to stand for Supreme Expansion Technology.

Not according to the Winchester reps.

reefer_bob
05-11-2009, 10:37 PM
My black talons just sit in an ammo box! :) My 45 is loaded with new HSTs.

I've considered selling them, but figure it just isn't worth it yet..

eric1972
05-12-2009, 12:39 AM
I think there is a little bit of wisdom to take from the "being sued" statement. Maybe no worries from a criminal lawsuit, but an hungry ambulance chaser lawyer may file a civil suit against someone using Black Talons by telling a story that augments the negative perception that the public has with this round, and coupled that with 12 jurors who might not know anything better, I think there is a chance that a wrongful death civil suit could prevail by arguing the shooter used a round that has a public perception of being overkill, even in self defense.

I think the advice I read here about using a round that the local LE uses is a pretty good prophylactic against an ambulance chaser argument.

J-cat
05-12-2009, 10:34 AM
Penal Code Section 198.5 creates a legal PRESUMPTION that you are in fear of your life if you defend yourself from an intruder in your own home. Hence, you cannot be sued or prosecuted for defending yourself unless you commit an additional crime or tort or place yourself outside the statute. Since BT are legal to possess, as long as you shoot an intruder who forced entry and is not a member of the household or a police officer, you are GTG.

As far as BT go, I recently had a conversation with a wheelchair-bound parolee who told me about his misfortune. He was shot at close range with a 9mm BT center of mass. He was instantly paralyzed and fell to the ground like a tree. Good rounds these BT.

Colt Jackson
05-12-2009, 2:47 PM
This is exactly what the gun store owner that recommended I not use the Black Talons was getting at. An ambulance chaser lawyer that won over an ignorant jury that I might end up in jail because of it.BTW this advice not to use them as an hd round was given to me roughly 10 years ago. Way to go eric1972 for shedding some light on this. They will continue to sit in my safe as a collectible.

Blademan21
05-12-2009, 4:08 PM
Sure, you can use them, but you'd be much better off selling them on Gunbroker (even the boxes are worth $) to fools and replacing them with (much better) modern ammo, such as:

Winchester SXT
Federal HST
Speer Gold Dot
Corbon DPX

Modern bonded ammo is better than it was 10, 5 or even 3 years ago.




Myth... Winchester says it stands for nothing.




This is the best advice yet.

eric1972
05-12-2009, 7:43 PM
Just to be clear -- all I was just saying is that even if you're not prosecuted under a criminal statue (ala the Penal Code), you could still be subject of a civil lawsuit for monetary damages (but no jail time). We have a *weird* system where the criminal lawsuit can render one verdict, while the counterpart civil lawsuit can render another (see O.J. Simpson, not guilty in criminal court, but liable for money damages in civil court).

chefdude
05-12-2009, 8:39 PM
Hahahahahahah

J-cat
05-12-2009, 9:53 PM
Just to be clear -- all I was just saying is that even if you're not prosecuted under a criminal statue (ala the Penal Code), you could still be subject of a civil lawsuit for monetary damages (but no jail time). We have a *weird* system where the criminal lawsuit can render one verdict, while the counterpart civil lawsuit can render another (see O.J. Simpson, not guilty in criminal court, but liable for money damages in civil court).

How?

If the law presumes you are in fear of your life, how can the plaintiff prevail?

NiteQwill
05-12-2009, 9:58 PM
How?

If the law presumes you are in fear of your life, how can the plaintiff prevail?

I guess you haven't realized we live in California. A state where a robber can sue the owner of a house for false imprisonment when he gets stuck in the chimney trying to rob the house... and the jury rewards him a couple hundred grand in civil court.

Stupid, yeah.

U2BassAce
05-12-2009, 10:14 PM
Current Ranger SXT is even more evil! ;)

HowardW56
05-12-2009, 10:34 PM
Current Ranger SXT is even more evil! ;)


No it isn't, it's the wrong color... A black bullet is inherantly more evil...

By the way, I stopped into Sharpshoters in Torrance today, they have pallets of SXT in 45, 9MM, & 308....

J-cat
05-13-2009, 8:51 AM
I guess you haven't realized we live in California. A state where a robber can sue the owner of a house for false imprisonment when he gets stuck in the chimney trying to rob the house... and the jury rewards him a couple hundred grand in civil court.

Stupid, yeah.

You mean burglar? You don't become a robber until you use force to take another's property.

Still, whare's your proof?

What was the judgment for? Negligence? How was the homeowner negligent?

HowardW56
05-13-2009, 9:01 AM
I guess you haven't realized we live in California. A state where a robber can sue the owner of a house for false imprisonment when he gets stuck in the chimney trying to rob the house... and the jury rewards him a couple hundred grand in civil court.

Stupid, yeah.

Case info or I call http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt321/HowardW56/bsflag.gif

-hanko
05-13-2009, 2:42 PM
There may be some concern that an overzealous DA would go after you for using them in a righteous shooting. I think it was Mas Ayoob that said you should use whatever your local PD uses because it is completely defensible. Most of the time that probably makes sense because they usually use quality ammo. I don't always follow that advice, but I do use current factory ammo (mainly Corbon and Federal Hydrashoks).
But Mas is still NOT able to cite a single case where shooter was sued by an "overzealous DA" NOR a single civil suit where shooter had an issue due to the ammo used in a valid (legally justifiable) shooting.

If you can cite a case please let us know. Mas has been unable to find anything when asked either in person or via email.
I think there is a little bit of wisdom to take from the "being sued" statement. Maybe no worries from a criminal lawsuit, but an hungry ambulance chaser lawyer may file a civil suit against someone using Black Talons by telling a story that augments the negative perception that the public has with this round, and coupled that with 12 jurors who might not know anything better, I think there is a chance that a wrongful death civil suit could prevail by arguing the shooter used a round that has a public perception of being overkill, even in self defense.

I think the advice I read here about using a round that the local LE uses is a pretty good prophylactic against an ambulance chaser argument.
Eric, see above...nice post, but you can theorize just about anything you can imagine:confused: Nice use of the word 'prophylactic' though:cool:

This is exactly what the gun store owner that recommended I not use the Black Talons was getting at. An ambulance chaser lawyer that won over an ignorant jury that I might end up in jail because of it.BTW this advice not to use them as an hd round was given to me roughly 10 years ago. Way to go eric1972 for shedding some light on this. They will continue to sit in my safe as a collectible.
NO ONE has 'shed some light on this.'...the replies above are just the same BS that the gun dealer quoted.

You've been FUD'ed:TFH:

-hanko