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View Full Version : 10/22 odd happenings [contacted Mueller, emails inside]


xxdabroxx
05-10-2009, 3:33 PM
So i took out the rimfires yesterday and my 10/22 was not even on paper at 100. So i finally found where it was hitting, about 18" low at 100 yards.

Then i cranked the adjustment up as high as it would go to get the difference down to about 12" low at 100 yards. I cannot for the life of me figure out what could have changed this drastically since i last shot the rifle. I field stripped it, looked it over and everything felt tight. Reassembled the 10/22 and there was no change.

The barrel is still floated in the stock so that isnt it.
Did this with multiple ammo types as well.
Found a TAC SOL 15 MOA scope base, but i dont think that would quite cut it.

Mueller APV scope
Cheapo scope base
Laminate stock
10/22T barrel
Tinkered with trigger group

anyone ever have something like this happen before, any thoughts. Right now i am guessing that the scope took a dump.

xxdabroxx
05-11-2009, 12:17 PM
i'm guessing scope is junk, sent mueller an email. We shall see how it goes.

Mueller is quick:

Hi Dave,
Over 99% of the issues we see with the APV and 10/22's is due to barrel droop.. Unfortunately, with the limited over-all adjustment range of 45moa, the APV really doesn't have enough internal adjustment range to compensate for it... Its possible over time, it may have dropped a little more, even with the v-block being tight, hence the reason you are shooting even lower now.. There are other scopes on the market with more internal adjustment so you could install a different scope, which may allow you to reach zero but there is another solution. The solution is to use Burris Signature Zee rings with off-set inserts. These rings will help you get more elevation on the scope. We can check the scope here if you would like but I don't think we have ever found one that shooting low was due to the scope itself.. The only other time we see a scope shooting low is when it gets dropped and the front part of the scope gets bent down slightly.

If you want us to check it out, just let us know

Thanks again
Mueller Optics

Hi Dave,
Remove the top halves of the rings and then spin the scope while its sitting in the lower half of the rings and watch the front of the scope to see if it wobbles up and down as you spin it.. If its bent, it will wobble.. Its even easier to see the wobble if you look at the section between the top of the barrel and the bottom of the objective. Then just watch the gap to see if it gets bigger or smaller as you spin it.. If its straight, the gap will remain the same.

Thanks and good luck!!
Mueller Optics


i fear it is bent, but have not looked yet.

maxicon
05-11-2009, 1:39 PM
Don't forget to give the scope a good shake. That's how I found the loose objective lens in my Mueller Sport Dot. They were very good at replacing it under warranty (luckily I had the original receipt still, even though I bought it used), and I got a new one pretty quickly.

ETA: Barrel droop on the 10/22? I must have missed this as a common problem...

xxdabroxx
05-11-2009, 1:42 PM
i could see it happening, but not to the extent of +/- 18 MOA

domokun
05-11-2009, 2:17 PM
If it isn't the scope, try replacing the cheapo scope base with a 15 or 20 MOA scope base. ;)

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 2:30 PM
Hmmmm... interesting. I have an APV, but luckly no problems yet. They're made in China, and I've heard their QA is weak, but Mueller compensates for that issue with good customer service. 2 additional thoughts come to mind before shipping it off for service. One doesn't require shooting the gun, the other does:

1) Are you able to optically center the scope with a mirror?

Dial the magnification to the minimum, then hold the scope's object lens firmly and squarely on a mirror and then looked into the scope. You should see two cross hairs. Rotate the windage and elevation adjustments and see if you can align the two sets of crosshair. Rotate the scope in the mirror to ensure it is aligned all the way around. Not perfect, but you should be able to optically center the recticle pretty close, very quickly.

2) Did you try turning the scope in it's rings to see the effect?

You could loosen the scope rings enough to give the scope a quarter turn to the left, then re-tighten the rings. This positions the original windage adjustment knob on top of your scope for use as the elevation knob. It also positions the original elevation knob to now serve as the windage adjustment. Shoot and observe the effect.

Good Luck!

djslik
05-11-2009, 2:36 PM
I have a mueller APV that has been tested on my Remington .223 Bolt action at 100 yards no problems, 10/22 at 50 yards no problem, and just this weekend it sat on top of my Fulton Armory .308 and it did fine at 100 yards. Mine has been taken on and off several times and I have cranked the dials from end to end and everything else is still fine. You should be able to get it replaced and hopefully you don't get a dud.

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 2:45 PM
I have a mueller APV that has been tested on my Remington .223 Bolt action at 100 yards no problems, 10/22 at 50 yards no problem, and just this weekend it sat on top of my Fulton Armory .308 and it did fine at 100 yards. Mine has been taken on and off several times and I have cranked the dials from end to end and everything else is still fine. You should be able to get it replaced and hopefully you don't get a dud.

Good that you experienced No Problems on the .308. I see where Mueller states that "The APV is designed for smaller caliber rifles"
and expressly Does Not recommended it for heavy magnum rifles.

http://www.muelleroptics.com/products/MAPV451440.html

xxdabroxx
05-11-2009, 2:49 PM
I am hoping that it is something arbitrary that will show itself when i get a little deeper into it. I fear it may be the scope being bent somehow, but hope not.

nikki#2
05-11-2009, 2:52 PM
I am hoping that it is something arbitrary that will show itself when i get a little deeper into it. I fear it may be the scope being bent somehow, but hope not.

Please keep us posted. I have been recommending the APV to friends...:eek:

xxdabroxx
05-11-2009, 3:04 PM
me too, i think worst case i may have done it when installing my flip up caps but i hope it is not that fragile because i was pretty gentle with it. That is just the most stress i have ever put on it.

maxicon
05-12-2009, 9:22 AM
Please keep us posted. I have been recommending the APV to friends...:eek:

The APV's got a good enough reputation in general, especially as a rimfire scope. Like Millett, the main downside is decent rather than great QA, and the support is good. It's the price you pay for value scopes these days.

WyoDuner
05-12-2009, 9:55 AM
Hmm... Could it be something besides the scope? If it were me, I'd take the stock off and make sure that something isn't amiss. Only thing I can think of is that the barrel block and alan screws maybe came loose or get jarred askew from a drip or something??? Kind of unlikely but it would be easy to check.

djslik
05-12-2009, 4:23 PM
The scope is now sitting on top of my Bolt Action Remington 700 .308 ready to go this weekend. I'll let you know if it breaks.

Calif Mini
05-20-2009, 8:28 PM
So i took out the rimfires yesterday and my 10/22 was not even on paper at 100. So i finally found where it was hitting, about 18" low at 100 yards.

Then i cranked the adjustment up as high as it would go to get the difference down to about 12" low at 100 yards. I cannot for the life of me figure out what could have changed this drastically since i last shot the rifle. I field stripped it, looked it over and everything felt tight. Reassembled the 10/22 and there was no change.

The barrel is still floated in the stock so that isnt it.
Did this with multiple ammo types as well.
Found a TAC SOL 15 MOA scope base, but i dont think that would quite cut it.

Mueller APV scope
Cheapo scope base
Laminate stock
10/22T barrel
Tinkered with trigger group

anyone ever have something like this happen before, any thoughts. Right now i am guessing that the scope took a dump.

xxdabroxx

Did you find out your issue with the barrel droop or scope?

Did you find a scope base that will work? I made one for my 10/22 and it works fine for me. Mine is around 15 moa. I also made a barrel retainer block which I added a set screw that is tensioned after the barrel retainer bolts are tightened. This helps by keeping the barrel in a more stable position(less droop). Be careful not to just wedge a shim above the original retainer as this may cause the block to tension the barrel a little lower and cause some droop. IMHO. I have seen this on a couple 10/22's.

Let us all know what you find as your problem as well as the solution.

Good luck. Ed

xxdabroxx
05-21-2009, 2:56 PM
xxdabroxx

Did you find out your issue with the barrel droop or scope?

Did you find a scope base that will work? I made one for my 10/22 and it works fine for me. Mine is around 15 moa. I also made a barrel retainer block which I added a set screw that is tensioned after the barrel retainer bolts are tightened. This helps by keeping the barrel in a more stable position(less droop). Be careful not to just wedge a shim above the original retainer as this may cause the block to tension the barrel a little lower and cause some droop. IMHO. I have seen this on a couple 10/22's.

Let us all know what you find as your problem as well as the solution.

Good luck. Ed

I took it apart and cleaned it, removed and replaced the scope but have not yet shot it. I will prob have a chance to shoot it on monday. There was a piece of black tape under the scope mount from the original owner, so i removed it and cleaned it all up real well.

Can you post some pictures of your scope mount and your V block? That would be cool. Also how did you add the angle to your scope mount. i was thinking about removing some material from the scope mount, but have not figured out a way to do it. Well do it right.

RobT2K
05-21-2009, 10:37 PM
Some good insight on "barrel droop" here:
Snipershide rimfire section (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1156077#Post1156077)
I've also heard that free floating the barrel isn't always the best thing, the 10/22 benefits from a little bedding up front.

GTR645
05-22-2009, 12:29 AM
I'm running out of "UP" elevation adjustment too. Right now, I've got Leupold QRW High rings and Power Custom scope base. This combo makes the scope sit quite a bit high above the barrel. I'm thinking a Tactical Solutions 15MOA base ought to help and then an adjustable V-block if further corrections are necessary. Let us know if you find a working solution.

dg29
05-22-2009, 8:26 AM
If it is not the scope then the v-block is probably your problem. IMO, anything other than a stock sporter taper would be aided by the adjustable v-block. http://www.rimfiretechnologies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AVB001

Calif Mini
05-22-2009, 9:02 PM
I took it apart and cleaned it, removed and replaced the scope but have not yet shot it. I will prob have a chance to shoot it on monday. There was a piece of black tape under the scope mount from the original owner, so i removed it and cleaned it all up real well.

Can you post some pictures of your scope mount and your V block? That would be cool. Also how did you add the angle to your scope mount. i was thinking about removing some material from the scope mount, but have not figured out a way to do it. Well do it right.

xxdabroxx

I will try to post some pics this weekend but it will look a lot like the Tac Sol 15 moa. I only like to cut 2 cross grooves for the scope rings to locate on as that is the only ones I use anyway. I am having a special end mill ground to make the receiver radius cut easier. You wouldn't believe how I did the first few I made. Anyway, I am not sure the pics will show the .020" or so that is cut into the base where it rests on the receiver. Also it uses Weaver rings and not the rimfire narrow ones (the ones called tipoff?) I should have the new cutter in a week or two.

Keep loading,
Ed

Calif Mini
05-23-2009, 7:36 PM
I took it apart and cleaned it, removed and replaced the scope but have not yet shot it. I will prob have a chance to shoot it on monday. There was a piece of black tape under the scope mount from the original owner, so i removed it and cleaned it all up real well.

Can you post some pictures of your scope mount and your V block? That would be cool. Also how did you add the angle to your scope mount. i was thinking about removing some material from the scope mount, but have not figured out a way to do it. Well do it right.

xxdabroxx

Here are a couple pics .........

In the first you can see the back is a little thicker to elevate the rear of the scope.
23935


Next is a barrel retainer block that has a set screw to help keep the barrel in a stable position.
23936

Another shot of the base with the thick end on the left.
23934

Barrel retainer block with the ground end of the set screw shown.
23939

Last is a top view with 2 ring slots only.
23938

Hope this helps, if you need more, let me know.
Ed

MILLITIAof1
05-24-2009, 9:15 AM
very nice job calif-mini!

Calif Mini
05-24-2009, 7:58 PM
MILLITIAOF1:

I have to admit that I had fun making these and saved myself some cash, not to mention they assisted in reducing problems at the same time.

I actually made an extra to see if there was anyone that would benefit from having one of these. I would consider selling the extras. I could even make a sight base with 20 or more MOA if needed.

Thanks again, Ed

Calif Mini
06-18-2009, 3:36 PM
xxdabroxx

Not sure if you caught these pics?

Let me know if there is anything more you would like.

Check here for a few items I made for the 10/22, Mini 14 or even an AR 15.

http://www.edsmetalshop.com

Ed

Calif Mini
07-17-2009, 7:30 PM
I took it apart and cleaned it, removed and replaced the scope but have not yet shot it. I will prob have a chance to shoot it on monday. There was a piece of black tape under the scope mount from the original owner, so i removed it and cleaned it all up real well.

Can you post some pictures of your scope mount and your V block? That would be cool. Also how did you add the angle to your scope mount. i was thinking about removing some material from the scope mount, but have not figured out a way to do it. Well do it right.

xxdabroxx:

I finally got the radius end mill cutter I mentioned in a previous post, and I think it is very close to the exact radius of a 10/22 receiver. If you would like me to try to angle cut your base let me know.

Two things are true here. I will not charge anything to try to cut your base to compensate for barrel droop or long range scope adjustment but this may be difficult to hold in the mill and I really don't want to be responsible for ruining your favorite scope base. If you can take a chance----------I will do my best.

The cut should be about a .020" taper over the full length of the base. .022" off the front and .002" off the back. This should be around a 15 moa adjustment. If you want less just say how much. The only issue I can see is the countersunk front screw holes will be about .018 thinner than it is now and the screws may need to be filed off so as not to rub on the bolt. A thin washer can be inserted also if you can find some. Maybe one from a pop rivet. Sanding or filing may be difficult to hold.

I will extend this offer to the first person that responds but in all fairness, xxdabroxx should have first dibs if he wants it. You pay the shipping and I will try to get on it as soon as I can. About a week or so.

If anyone has a better idea, please post here for all to benefit.

Thanks, Ed

xxdabroxx
07-20-2009, 7:38 AM
Thanks Ed, i did see the pictures and it looks good. I just have not messed with my 10/22 in a little while, but i do need to get it back out and fix it. PM inbound.

SteveK
07-20-2009, 8:44 AM
I remember having this problem when building my 1022. First off you need a 20 moa. and your rings are just wrong. I believe burris makes canted rings. That will fix your problem, making sure you don't have barrel droop. To eliminate scope issue use another scope... I tried several scopes getting a little closer but still having the same problem. The Muellars dont give much moa especially at 100 yards... With the canted rings and base i moved something like 30moa....