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Buddhabelly
05-09-2009, 9:19 PM
So if you're buying a used gun from another individual, you go to a dealer to do a PPT. How do you know the guy is the rightful owner of the gun he's selling you?

Like buying a used car, you have the pink slip for rightful proof of ownership, what can you do to ensure the guy didn't steal the gun, or worse, just picked it up off the street a murder weapon and turns around and is now selling it to you?

Futurecollector
05-09-2009, 9:25 PM
If im not mistaken the DROS paperwork will come back and he will not be the lawfull owner, Since Handguns are registered here when they do the transfer it will be the wrong person trying to get rid of it, also, If the serial number is no longer there that may be a good bet that it isnt his.lol

punisheryayarea
05-09-2009, 9:31 PM
If im not mistaken the DROS paperwork will come back and he will not be the lawfull owner, Since Handguns are registered here when they do the transfer it will be the wrong person trying to get rid of it, also, If the serial number is no longer there that may be a good bet that it isnt his.lol

:thumbsup: Hes right.........

anthonyca
05-09-2009, 9:32 PM
So if you're buying a used gun from another individual, you go to a dealer to do a PPT. How do you know the guy is the rightful owner of the gun he's selling you?

Like buying a used car, you have the pink slip for rightful proof of ownership, what can you do to ensure the guy didn't steal the gun, or worse, just picked it up off the street a murder weapon and turns around and is now selling it to you?

This is a like conversation I had with my brother about buying and selling used guns. Have any of you ever sold a car and then gotten tickets and smog stuff from the dmv and had to deal with that nightmare? It is not an easy or quick process. I was in the DMV once and they came to the conclusion that the woman next to me had probably bought a stolen car from a guy on craigslist. I left before they figured out what to do about the situation.

I know there is more control with guns but I would not want to have to prove that a handgun I legally sold was no longer mine if it was used in a crime or a gun I bought was used in a crime years ago and fell through the cracks. EXTREMLY un probable but NOT impossible.

nick
05-09-2009, 9:38 PM
Well, one way to protect yourself would be to keep good records of all of your guns. I keep the DROS and other paperwork well-organized, just in case.

Buddhabelly
05-09-2009, 9:40 PM
This is a like conversation I had with my brother about buying and selling used guns. Have any of you ever sold a car and then gotten tickets and smog stuff from the dmv and had to deal with that nightmare? It is not an easy or quick process. I was in the DMV once and they came to the conclusion that the woman next to me had probably bought a stolen car from a guy on craigslist. I left before they figured out what to do about the situation.

I know there is more control with guns but I would not want to have to prove that a handgun I legally sold was no longer mine if it was used in a crime or a gun I bought was used in a crime years ago and fell through the cracks. EXTREMLY un probable but NOT impossible.

Yeah, go on...

You have some provocative thoughts, and then what??? I am thinking roughly the same too.

What mechanisms are there to protect both the buyer and seller a situation that has MUCH bigger implications than buying a used car.

truthseeker
05-09-2009, 9:45 PM
If im not mistaken the DROS paperwork will come back and he will not be the lawfull owner, Since Handguns are registered here when they do the transfer it will be the wrong person trying to get rid of it, also, If the serial number is no longer there that may be a good bet that it isnt his.lol

Yes, but the buyer will be out the money he used to purchased said firearm.

Jonathan Doe
05-09-2009, 9:59 PM
I have never had a problem buying/selling the guns from Calguns members. At least I have means to check serial numbers if I decide to check it.

Question: I have sold the guns that I bought a long time ago when there was no requirement for PPT. Does that mean I cannot sell the pistol?

Buddhabelly
05-09-2009, 10:10 PM
Question: I have sold the guns that I bought a long time ago when there was no requirement for PPT. Does that mean I cannot sell the pistol?

Please don't jack the thread. I think we have a serious question, that a lot of people would appreciate someone giving a concise legal answer.

anthonyca
05-09-2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah, go on...

You have some provocative thoughts, and then what??? I am thinking roughly the same too.

What mechanisms are there to protect both the buyer and seller a situation that has MUCH bigger implications than buying a used car.

The only thing we came up with was to not buy and sell used guns.:mad:

I know thousands upon thousands of people have no problems like we were speculating about but u know that feeling of "with my luck I will be that guy that it happens to".

Someday I will just do it and after the first one it will become easy like everythign else.

Saigon1965
05-09-2009, 10:21 PM
That is part of your scenario - Back before 199.. something - I can't remember correctly - No DROS was required -

Please don't jack the thread. I think we have a serious question, that a lot of people would appreciate someone giving a concise legal answer.

Buddhabelly
05-09-2009, 10:22 PM
The only thing we came up with was to not buy and sell used guns.:mad:

I know thousands upon thousands of people have no problems like we were speculating about but u know that feeling of "with my luck I will be that guy that it happens to".

Someday I will just do it and after the first one it will become easy like everythign else.

I dunno... again, just like you, I am very concerned that in order to save a measly few hundred bucks, what if you are involved in this nightmare???

swerv512
05-09-2009, 10:25 PM
the best bet is to see if the seller will accept 50% down until dros clears. if he's scamming you, at least he knows he'll walk with half the $$, but at least you saved the other half...

otherwise, it's wise to buy only from people you know or trust.

mike100
05-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Calguns i-trader and your own personal BS detector rules are in effect. I guess there would be about a 5 percent chance of a hangup on the dros, but you can kind of tell a lot about someone with a 5-10 minute conversation.

Sinixstar
05-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Kinda like if you tried to register the VIN# of a stolen car. The DMV would pretty much immediately call the police, and they're going to want to have a chat with you.
That's part of the point behind the whole DROS thing as I understand it.

Because as we all know - if a gangbanger wants to dump a gun that has bodies on it - the first thing he's going to do is take it down to his local FFL to sell on consignment or something. :rolleyes:

Sinixstar
05-09-2009, 10:38 PM
Calguns i-trader and your own personal BS detector rules are in effect. I guess there would be about a 5 percent chance of a hangup on the dros, but you can kind of tell a lot about someone with a 5-10 minute conversation.


Yea - I would be wary of someone who wants to sell a gun ASAP, or always has some weird circumstances surrounding them and the sale. You can normally tell when something's fishy or not.

If you answer an ad - and the seller says he needs you to get it off his hands TODAY, I would be wary. Someone who has the legal right to sell a gun in CA is probably just as concerned about getting snagged up with the law as anyone else, and may be asking the same questions about you. "Is this guy legit? is he legal to purchase? Is he paying with drug money?" etc.
When both parties are totally on the up and up - I think it's safe to say that neither is going to have a problem with doing things correctly, and taking the time to make sure it's "right". That's a big part of how you know.

Fantasma
05-09-2009, 10:38 PM
What would be his options, It wasn't his fault.

walter
05-09-2009, 11:04 PM
So if you're buying a used gun from another individual, you go to a dealer to do a PPT. How do you know the guy is the rightful owner of the gun he's selling you?

Like buying a used car, you have the pink slip for rightful proof of ownership, what can you do to ensure the guy didn't steal the gun, or worse, just picked it up off the street a murder weapon and turns around and is now selling it to you?

you don't know. most likely if he stole the gun he wouldn't try to PPT it. a seller will only PPT if he thinks the gun is legit... unless its a scammer really desperate for money, but then he can just sell on the streets. i wouldnt worry too much.

ke6guj
05-09-2009, 11:24 PM
If im not mistaken the DROS paperwork will come back and he will not be the lawfull owner, Since Handguns are registered here when they do the transfer it will be the wrong person trying to get rid of it, also, If the serial number is no longer there that may be a good bet that it isnt his.lolAFAIK, they don't decline PPT DROSes if the seller is not the registered owner on record. There are many handguns that have gone through paperless transfers and CADOJ would like to get it "back into the system" so they allow the seller to PPT it to the buyer, even if the seller isn't the registered owner.

Now, if the handgun was reported stolen, I think that CADOJ does run the serial number when they are doing the paperwork. And since the seller had to produce identification for the dealer to process the PPT, there is now a paper trail back to the seller. And usually the buyer is SOL on the money he gave the seller, and the firearm should go back to the victim.

berto
05-09-2009, 11:29 PM
It would take a real idiot to try and push a hot gun through the system. Not saying they're not out there but it would be much easier to sell a hot gun on the street.

If the gun comes back stolen the seller is in a world of hurt. The seller's info is on the paperwork, name, address, etc. It might be a hassle to get money back but all the info needed is on the form. The same form gives the police with their "take guns off the street" thing a good idea of where to find the guy.

nick
05-09-2009, 11:31 PM
Besides, if one's desperate to get rid of a hot gun, he can always take it to one of the gun buybacks :)

ck867
05-09-2009, 11:33 PM
in response to doing ppt, as a buyer who is interested in buying a gun, when you meet up and do the ppt at an ffl, do you pay the seller the money up front then go into the gunstore and do the paper work or should you go in and do the paper work first then pay the seller after the paperwork is finished?

PutTogether
05-09-2009, 11:36 PM
AFAIK, they don't decline PPT DROSes if the seller is not the registered owner on record. There are many handguns that have gone through paperless transfers and CADOJ would like to get it "back into the system" so they allow the seller to PPT it to the buyer, even if the seller isn't the registered owner.

Now, if the handgun was reported stolen, I think that CADOJ does run the serial number when they are doing the paperwork. And since the seller had to produce identification for the dealer to process the PPT, there is now a paper trail back to the seller. And usually the buyer is SOL on the money he gave the seller, and the firearm should go back to the victim.


I think this is the closest to a "right" answer in so far as buying a used gun is concerned. If the serial was reported stolen, it would ping, otherwise you are good. When you are the seller, you keep a copy of your DROS that says you sold the gun legally. It is like a release of liability from the gun.

berto
05-10-2009, 12:03 AM
in response to doing ppt, as a buyer who is interested in buying a gun, when you meet up and do the ppt at an ffl, do you pay the seller the money up front then go into the gunstore and do the paper work or should you go in and do the paper work first then pay the seller after the paperwork is finished?

I've always met the seller inside the store and looked over the gun. Handed over cash and filled out the paperwork.

Ladyfox
05-10-2009, 12:39 AM
AFAIK, they don't decline PPT DROSes if the seller is not the registered owner on record. There are many handguns that have gone through paperless transfers and CADOJ would like to get it "back into the system" so they allow the seller to PPT it to the buyer, even if the seller isn't the registered owner.

Now, if the handgun was reported stolen, I think that CADOJ does run the serial number when they are doing the paperwork. And since the seller had to produce identification for the dealer to process the PPT, there is now a paper trail back to the seller. And usually the buyer is SOL on the money he gave the seller, and the firearm should go back to the victim.

That's interesting.

I'd always guessed that was how the mechanics of the process worked since before I think January 1992 (no later than 93 I think) no kind of DROS system was in place. I'd also further hazard that this same situation would cover anyone who moved around 92-93 since, again, they would be moving from out-of-state and would not have been any kind of paperwork to begin with.

Of course, this brings up the follow-up question of if someone had purchased a handgun or moved into the state prior to 1992-93 would they still be required to register? Granted this gets into a really big grey area since I know the burden would be on the person in question to prove it but how could they if none of the paperwork we deal with now was required?

In either case I think, really, that if there were any "hot" handguns trying to be passed in this fashion they'd get nailed pretty quick since they've got 10 days to crunch the numbers. Me, unless the weapon in question looks like junk (at which point I'd not buy anyway) I'd let the CADOJ and BATFE worry about if it is "hot" or not and I'll just grind my teeth over having to wait. ^_^

Sinixstar
05-10-2009, 12:56 AM
It would take a real idiot to try and push a hot gun through the system. Not saying they're not out there but it would be much easier to sell a hot gun on the street.

If the gun comes back stolen the seller is in a world of hurt. The seller's info is on the paperwork, name, address, etc. It might be a hassle to get money back but all the info needed is on the form. The same form gives the police with their "take guns off the street" thing a good idea of where to find the guy.

Yea - but identity theft is a *****.
May sound like kind of a stretch, and for the time being I would agree, but honestly i'm surprised this hasn't come up already.

You would be utterly amazed at what people will try to do if they think they have a foolproof way of not getting caught. If someone slightly more clever then your average hoodlum thought they could possibly get more money for say an off-roster, in-demand gun, by using a fake identity and selling it PPT - they're going to try and figure out a way of making it happen.

Whether or not they get away with it is another story though.

ke6guj
05-10-2009, 1:00 AM
That's interesting.

I'd always guessed that was how the mechanics of the process worked since before I think January 1992 (no later than 93 I think) no kind of DROS system was in place. I'd also further hazard that this same situation would cover anyone who moved around 92-93 since, again, they would be moving from out-of-state and would not have been any kind of paperwork to begin with. no, the DROS system has been around much longer than 1993. Its just that paperless transfer were legal before then, and personal handgun importation was not "papered" until 1998?, IIRC.

Of course, this brings up the follow-up question of if someone had purchased a handgun or moved into the state prior to 1992-93 would they still be required to register? Granted this gets into a really big grey area since I know the burden would be on the person in question to prove it but how could they if none of the paperwork we deal with now was required?No, if you acquired the handgun in a manner that did not require registration when you acquired it, you are not now required to register it. But you can, if you want, with the volreg form.

In either case I think, really, that if there were any "hot" handguns trying to be passed in this fashion they'd get nailed pretty quick since they've got 10 days to crunch the numbers. Me, unless the weapon in question looks like junk (at which point I'd not buy anyway) I'd let the CADOJ and BATFE worry about if it is "hot" or not and I'll just grind my teeth over having to wait. ^_^

that would a nice statistic to see. How many hot guns get caught during a PPT vs. how many PPTs occur per year? It would be nice to see that 99.44% of all PPT transfer go through just fine.

berto
05-10-2009, 2:04 AM
Yea - but identity theft is a *****.
May sound like kind of a stretch, and for the time being I would agree, but honestly i'm surprised this hasn't come up already.

You would be utterly amazed at what people will try to do if they think they have a foolproof way of not getting caught. If someone slightly more clever then your average hoodlum thought they could possibly get more money for say an off-roster, in-demand gun, by using a fake identity and selling it PPT - they're going to try and figure out a way of making it happen.

Whether or not they get away with it is another story though.

Sure but most folks smart enough to mess with identity theft aren't going to go to the trouble of selling a gun for a couple grand at most when they can open accounts and take thousands without leaving a thumbprint and a picture.

Buying a hot gun through PPT is a minor worry.

Buddhabelly
05-10-2009, 9:19 AM
I am glad I started the thread that led to thoughtful dialogue and considered responses. Keep it coming.

So basically from what I've learned from this thread so far, it's up to your BS meter and the DROS process to weed out potential problems. Moreover, the help you'd get from the DROS is actually a byproduct. Noone is required to show you his receipt, or his original DROS paperwork to show proof of ownership.

Granted not many crooks would subject themselves to the process to get a few grants... But let's look at an situation for instance... you talk to a guy with a nice shooting gun like a Les Baer, yet it's only got 300 rounds through it... but it's 2 years old and already went through 2, 3 owners. Makes you wonder...

I know my first gun, I shot the hammer off the gun in the first month. (Analogy of driving the wheels off a car). Would anyone be comfortable buying a BMW that has had 2 owners in a couple of years, with just 5000 miles?? Yet the BMW would have a title to provide check-and-balance to the seller, not the gun tho...

Ishoot
05-10-2009, 9:47 AM
Interesting thread...although it seems unlikely that a person who isn't the registered owner would do something as to sell a firearm through a PPT since it's much easier and with a lot less risk involved to just sell it w/o the paperwork, since he's operating outside the law anyway. That being said, in the case that does happen, the buyer is SOL on the cash.

B Strong
05-10-2009, 10:06 AM
So if you're buying a used gun from another individual, you go to a dealer to do a PPT. How do you know the guy is the rightful owner of the gun he's selling you?

Like buying a used car, you have the pink slip for rightful proof of ownership, what can you do to ensure the guy didn't steal the gun, or worse, just picked it up off the street a murder weapon and turns around and is now selling it to you?


I'd be willing to bet that very few stolen firearms are discovered during a PPT, but it's a possibility.

Know the seller - if the guy is hinky, or the deal seems too good to be true, walk away.

If you did hand over the cash, and the firearm comes up as stolen during the process, you'd have a civil case against the seller, and I'm sure the local LEA would want to speak with him too.

If you're that worred about it, buy new firearms only.

Ladyfox
05-10-2009, 10:18 AM
no, the DROS system has been around much longer than 1993. Its just that paperless transfer were legal before then, and personal handgun importation was not "papered" until 1998?, IIRC.

No, if you acquired the handgun in a manner that did not require registration when you acquired it, you are not now required to register it. But you can, if you want, with the volreg form.

that would a nice statistic to see. How many hot guns get caught during a PPT vs. how many PPTs occur per year? It would be nice to see that 99.44% of all PPT transfer go through just fine.

Huh. That's interesting since I thought the DROS system was quite a bit younger than that. Heck, I did not even know they had a form for such things but, considering this is Kalifornia, I guess I should not be that surprised. ^_^

I'd really be curious to see the statistics on the PPT front as well. Really, I felt that the system was more of a hassle for what it was designed to prevent since I really can not fathom anyone trying to pass off a "hot" firearm via the legal process.

Very informative thread this one so kudos to the OP for bringing up an interesting argument for discussion.

maxicon
05-10-2009, 10:31 AM
So, as others have stated, the big risk is being stuck footing the bill for a stolen gun.

Here are a few questions:

- What data is recorded about the seller during a PPT?

- Are there any checks done on the seller on the spot, like with the buyer, where they call in for approval to the NICS?

Decent looking fake driver's licenses are not hard to come by, and if there's no check done on the seller at the time, a bad seller could use a fake DL, leave no real personal data behind, and be gone with the money. The buyer of a stolen gun would then be out the money with no recourse and no hope of finding the seller.

A fake DL like this wouldn't need to have any real data behind it, like would be required for identity theft, just official appearance.

However, I agree that many people selling a known stolen gun would just stay outside the system and do a paperless transfer, either to someone who doesn't know what the law requires (80% of Californians would be my guess) or to someone who doesn't care.

There have been comments about whether a gun was used in a crime or murders, but that wouldn't surface in any case. Guns don't get tied to crimes unless they're in the hands of the police.

You could easily buy a gun legally from the registered owner that had been used in robberies and murders, and it would never come out unless it later got confiscated, tested for ballistic signature, and tied to the previous crimes. This would be extremely unlikely.

Buddhabelly
05-10-2009, 12:45 PM
:jump:
Very informative thread this one so kudos to the OP for bringing up an interesting argument for discussion.

Yippie! Do I get a cookie?? :jump:

Ladyfox
05-10-2009, 9:15 PM
:jump:

Yippie! Do I get a cookie?? :jump:

*laughs* Hon, if I had any I'd probably send you some if only for your reaction alone.

Buddhabelly
05-11-2009, 11:12 AM
Another issue to consider is that during the PPT process the buyer needs to provide a fingerprint. It would seem pretty out there that if the firearm was stolen that the theif would openly submit their drivers license and fingerprint. They can probably get more money out on the streets for a non registered handgun.

Pardon me but I don't understand your point. The BUYER has to give the fingerprint, right. The SELLER may be the one with the stolen gun tho...

Vin496
05-11-2009, 11:14 AM
Pardon me but I don't understand your point. The BUYER has to give the fingerprint, right. The SELLER may be the one with the stolen gun tho...

In every PPT where I have been the seller. I have had to give my DL and a fingerprint.

hkusp9c
05-11-2009, 11:23 AM
So if you're buying a used gun from another individual, you go to a dealer to do a PPT. How do you know the guy is the rightful owner of the gun he's selling you?

I don't. So I only buy them new :D

CHS
05-12-2009, 12:31 AM
First off, someone knowingly selling a hot gun is *NOT* going to meet you face to face at an FFL to proceed with a lawful transfer.

Second, when you purchase a gun you are not required to keep *ANY* paperwork at all.

Third, the DROS is a method to handle two things, and two things only:

A.) Background check for the individual buyer (and seller in a PPT).
B.) Automated handgun registration, and stolen record check.

If you buy any Title 1 firearm that is not a handgun and keep a copy of your DROS paperwork, that's silly. That information gets destroyed by CA 15 days later, and there is no firearms identification whatsoever on that DROS or submitted to the DoJ. If you get a copy, it's just a receipt that you paid 25$ for a background check. Chuck it. Get rid of it. It's useless paperwork that doesn't help you prove anything.

If you buy a handgun and keep a copy of your DROS, that's also silly. The handgun is registered automatically with the state and you have absolutely no legal liability whatsoever to keep that record or prove that record. Also, possession and sale of an unregistered handgun is not against the law. There are many many many unregistered handguns all through the state.

phil conrad
05-12-2009, 12:27 PM
So, as others have stated, the big risk is being stuck footing the bill for a stolen gun.

Here are a few questions:

- What data is recorded about the seller during a PPT?

- Are there any checks done on the seller on the spot, like with the buyer, where they call in for approval to the NICS?

Decent looking fake driver's licenses are not hard to come by, and if there's no check done on the seller at the time, a bad seller could use a fake DL, leave no real personal data behind, and be gone with the money. The buyer of a stolen gun would then be out the money with no recourse and no hope of finding the seller.

A fake DL like this wouldn't need to have any real data behind it, like would be required for identity theft, just official appearance.

However, I agree that many people selling a known stolen gun would just stay outside the system and do a paperless transfer, either to someone who doesn't know what the law requires (80% of Californians would be my guess) or to someone who doesn't care.

There have been comments about whether a gun was used in a crime or murders, but that wouldn't surface in any case. Guns don't get tied to crimes unless they're in the hands of the police.

You could easily buy a gun legally from the registered owner that had been used in robberies and murders, and it would never come out unless it later got confiscated, tested for ballistic signature, and tied to the previous crimes. This would be extremely unlikely.

They take a thumb print from the buyer and seller

Splinter
05-12-2009, 12:35 PM
Here is what I do and would do. Buy from a guy on here with feedback, that alone is pretty good to go. Buy from a person who has completed DROS already at the gun store your doing the PPT. Most people should be in the system at their local store. Buy from people that are KNOWLEDGABLE about firearms.

I really just do not see someone going into a gun store, being on camera, using a fraudulent govt document, again on camera with witnesses, giving a thumb print, and then selling a stolen firearm on camera again. Has this really happened? It would be much easier or them to just sell it on a street corner.

tonelar
05-12-2009, 2:25 PM
I've yet to see them thumbprint the seller. I've PPTd at numerous ffls.

Also, a few years ago, my g/f moved to Aussie. She couldn't sell her collection fast enough before her departure. So I sold her handguns through PPTs at 2 local gun shops.
I was never the reg'd owner of the pistols, however she did leave me a signed/ notarized power of atty.

Neither PPT got kicked back.

Splinter
05-12-2009, 3:19 PM
I've yet to see them thumbprint the seller. I've PPTd at numerous ffls.

Also, a few years ago, my g/f moved to Aussie. She couldn't sell her collection fast enough before her departure. So I sold her handguns through PPTs at 2 local gun shops.
I was never the reg'd owner of the pistols, however she did leave me a signed/ notarized power of atty.

Neither PPT got kicked back.

I have been thumbprinted at 2 sales.

stevie
05-13-2009, 3:03 AM
Well I have a handgun on "DOJ delay" since end of January. Won it off Gunbroker from a local guy.

DOJ does not say much other than "we cannot tell you" and "waiting for additional information".

maxicon
05-13-2009, 8:48 AM
They take a thumb print from the buyer and seller

Even when they take a thumbprint from the seller, what do they do with it? I'm assuming it doesn't get scanned into the system or anything, so it sits on a piece of paper that's required by California, but not the Feds.

Does this get turned in to the government, or is it kept in the FFL's files?

The Feds require 4473s to be kept, then turned in when an FFL goes out of business. What about the California records? What happens to them when a shop closes?