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steves86ta
05-09-2009, 10:07 AM
Here are a couple of pictures with me and my 45 (ruger p90) I am ALWAYS down and to the left always... Anyideas on what i am doing wrong? i appreciate any input.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/steves86ta/0508091825.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/steves86ta/0508091825a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/steves86ta/0508091825b.jpg

Greg-Dawg
05-09-2009, 10:16 AM
Since no one knows your level of handgun training...

Aim higher to the right.:cool2:

Try these:
-Stop using the death grip and tea cup grip.
-Dry fire.
-Use live ammo and snap caps while at the range, so you can catch your flinching.
-Use the pad of your trigger finger.
-Have an experienced shooter show you.
-Take a basic handgun class.

mike100
05-09-2009, 10:23 AM
A gun with a shorter, more crisp trigger pull will make that go away. I'd suggest a 1911 with a 4.5 lb trigger.

Pugster
05-09-2009, 10:31 AM
Groupings look tight, but how far are you placing your targets? Is it 20 feet or 20 yards?

steves86ta
05-09-2009, 11:44 AM
its about 15-20 feet

masameet
05-09-2009, 11:52 AM
Other Calgunners posted this. I think it's neat. Hope it helps!

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa184/masameet/bullseyechart.gif

Brooke
05-09-2009, 11:54 AM
Isn't down/left typically a trigger-pull issue? It's my usual pattern :( and I think it's from flinching in anticipation of the shot ...

JJ1911
05-09-2009, 11:54 AM
When I was shooting low/left, an instructor recommended I loosen my strong hand grip a bit, and grip harder with my support hand. Almost instantly my shots were more toward teh center and now I practice the technique everytime.Also try using the pad of your finger. Of course if you're already doing this its probably something else!

steves86ta
05-09-2009, 12:05 PM
im goin to the range today after work... ill try the loosen up the stronghand and tighten the support hand. Thanks for the insight guys

cassius
05-09-2009, 3:20 PM
too much pull / anticipatory flinch with the off hand.
Too much trigger finger on the trigger. Use the tip of your finger only.

Have someone else try some groups, small chance that it's your sights.

But whatever you do, keep holding the same point of aim on the center of the target while you figure and make your corrections.

Tillers_Rule
05-09-2009, 3:58 PM
Masameet, that's a cool little diagram!:)


For the OP question, I think you may be anticipating the recoil so you're compensating for it by pushing forward and down. If you shot left handed I be your shots would be landing low and right.

Thunderbird
05-09-2009, 3:59 PM
I used to have this problem when I only shot a couple of times a year. Now I shoot more and it is gone.

I think it was just a matter of relaxing, not anticipating, not squeezing, just shooting and having fun.

demo
05-09-2009, 5:19 PM
I'm a hand gun newbie. for me the first shot of the day will be dead center then the following shots are left and down. I just can't stop myself from pushing against the recoil. its worse with hotter heavyer rounds.

we had a 22lr kimber 1911 conversion with us and it helped to shoot it after shooting my .45, the lack of recoil with the 22 really demonstrated how hard I was pushing. I'd pull the trigger, then push the gun down and left. It was pretty funny.

Jason762
05-09-2009, 5:26 PM
Other Calgunners posted this. I think it's neat. Hope it helps!

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa184/masameet/bullseyechart.gif

As a lefty, do I flip this target? E.G if I'm shooting low and to the right, it's "squeezing finger tips while applying trigger pull" instead of "squeezing whole hand with trigger pull"?

Sinixstar
05-09-2009, 10:35 PM
stop thinking about it.

Sounds silly - but I had a similar problem not long ago. Always seemed to be either too far to one side or the other. If I was way left with one mag, i'd try to slow down and concentrate on not going so far left, and going dead center on the next mag. The result? Too far right.
After finally getting frustrated, smoked a cigarette - had some coffee and said to hell with it. Loaded up and just let it rip. Didn't worry about grip, trigger pull, nothing- just aimed for the middle and let 'em go. Ended up being my best shooting of the day - and best so far with that gun.
Realized that I'm over-concentrating and over-thinking. Trying to analyze every detail of what i'm doing right and wrong, and what I can do better. In the process I forgot how to just shoot. When you calm down, relax, and just let some practice take over for you a little bit, it can help a LOT.

masameet
05-09-2009, 10:53 PM
As a lefty, do I flip this target? E.G if I'm shooting low and to the right, it's "squeezing finger tips while applying trigger pull" instead of "squeezing whole hand with trigger pull"?


It could be that you're dropping the front of the barrel because your grip is improper. (I shoot left-handed too.)

Dry firing is the best way to observe what your hands and fingers are doing in firing a handgun. As my firearms instructor has told me several times now, neither hand should show any muscle movement. Only the trigger finger moves. It moves back toward the trigger guard. Maybe push is a better word to describe it, I dunno. So it's not really pulling the trigger, since pulling gives the shooter the impression he's moving his whole finger and not just pressing the fleshy pad part of his finger. Also if a shooter hooks his first phalange at the crease into the trigger, then pulling is more likely. Or so I've been told.

Still I'm no expert shooter and neither am I a beginner anymore either.

You have to remember that shooting is mostly mental anyway. The hands and the body hold the firearm, but the brain makes the body find the target. I guess a Zen-like calmness is necessary to be a good shooter. As the brain must focus to see and must quiet the body and shut out everything else to focus.

lol

Just made that all up. Kinda makes sense though, don't it?

ontmark
05-10-2009, 8:52 AM
How is the group off a sandbag bench rest? Must first really see where your chosen ammo shoots off a steady rest. Then you can work on trigger and grip control if it is really you.

eaglemike
05-10-2009, 9:11 AM
Are you totally focused on the front sight? Keep your focus on the front sight at all times until you lower the gun. Even as you press the trigger stay focused on the front sight. Even as the bullet leaves the barrel and the gun starts to recoil (and cycle) try to maintain grip, sight alignment, and focus on the front sight. This is called "follow through" - if you work on this during dry practice it will really help. If good shootiing is important, build your skill with dry practice. If you get tired, stop, build up a bit at a time. Use your best technique at the range every time. As soon as you get tired, stop. Don't develop bad habits. This is some of the stuff I've learned from both formal training and reading a lot of articles. Theer's a lot more technique than this in shooting a gun well, but these things will help.
all the best,
Mike

cassius
05-10-2009, 9:56 AM
This kind of thing is also symptomatic of the shooter making a conscious decision to 'shoot NOW', at which time they convulsively clench the gun, jerk the trigger, etc.
If you are instead maintaining a firm steady hold and conscientiously squeeeeezing the trigger, you get a firearm firing without all that other aim-ruining nonsense going on.

slowjonn
05-10-2009, 10:03 AM
All the above posts focus on YOUR shooting which is fine and some good advise. I would also have someone that shoots well shoot your gun to check the sight alignment. May not be you at all.

Corbin Dallas
05-10-2009, 10:07 AM
Since no one knows your level of handgun training...

Aim higher to the right.:cool2:

Try these:
-Stop using the death grip and tea cup grip.
-Dry fire.
-Use live ammo and snap caps while at the range, so you can catch your flinching.
-Use the pad of your trigger finger.
-Have an experienced shooter show you.
-Take a basic handgun class.


Oh dear GOD do NOT use the "TEA CUP" grip...


Dry firing is great, but use a snap cap to ensure you don't damage your weapon.

I am also a HUGE fan of snap caps at the range, have someone else load your mags while you are not looking. You will find these are invaluable for catching flinching.

Yes
YES
YES!!!

Proper grip and stance by Todd Jarrett

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masameet
05-10-2009, 3:44 PM
And if you don't have any snap caps handy, a spent casing in your .45 will do as well. If an empty casing won't let you dry fire, replace it within another one. They tend to get distorted during hot firing.

Another thought: Check your feet and where your body addresses the target. Foot positioning and being square to the target -- all these little things add up. Anyway I've noticed that whenever a shooter is in the next booth on my right (no separating stalls at USI), for some reason I tend to be a little to the left of my paper target. Which means I'm sighting down at the target at an angle greater than 90. Just as in bowling, if you move an inch or two over, your throw (aim) might improve. YMMV.

jlh95811
05-10-2009, 3:56 PM
This kind of thing is also symptomatic of the shooter making a conscious decision to 'shoot NOW', at which time they convulsively clench the gun, jerk the trigger, etc.
If you are instead maintaining a firm steady hold and conscientiously squeeeeezing the trigger, you get a firearm firing without all that other aim-ruining nonsense going on.

I'm willing to bet this is what he is doing. I used to shoot the exact same way and it was because of this very reason. As I anticipated the breaking of the trigger I would clench tighter on the grip. I have a similar target I use to train new shooters.

All the above posts focus on YOUR shooting which is fine and some good advise. I would also have someone that shoots well shoot your gun to check the sight alignment. May not be you at all.

This is less often the truth but still a truth nontheless. It happens.

sp_train_77
05-10-2009, 7:27 PM
Here are a couple of pictures with me and my 45 (ruger p90) I am ALWAYS down and to the left always... Any ideas on what i am doing wrong? i appreciate any input.

The chart that masameet posted is right on the money, you are squeezing (tightening) your fingers as you squeeze the trigger. This and "palming" are the two most common problems I encountered while instructing.

Interestingly, every student who had this problem claimed the sights were "off" on the gun I had supplied them for training. They would not even look at their grip until I had taken the gun and shot a couple of centered groups with it. Then, when their argument had been nullified, I could instruct them on the proper technique for gripping the pistol/revolver.

sp_train_77
05-10-2009, 7:33 PM
I am also a HUGE fan of snap caps at the range, have someone else load your mags while you are not looking. You will find these are invaluable for catching flinching.

Definitely, an excellent technique for a trainer to employ.

I had a student back in the 70's who was carrying a Dan Wesson and using full power loads even from practice. He always had a 6" or 8" rise of the muzzle when he fired. His groups OK but nothing special. I had tried mixing 38 Specials and Magnums but he still always had a muzzle flip.

Then I left one cylinder empty one time. Click, the muzzle flipped "...."hey,you left you cyliner empty..." Yes, and the still had significant recoil on an empty cylinder??? Then we got down to business and his groups improved dramatically.

fcr
05-10-2009, 8:06 PM
I asked the same thing recently and was doing the same thing. The Jarret Video and using my finger tip like he says made a world of difference. I worked on stance and relaxing the death grip.

MaxPower
05-10-2009, 8:42 PM
Thanks for the video and other advice. I will try it next time I'm at the range.

roc
05-10-2009, 8:55 PM
concentrate on squeezing the trigger slowly rather than a squeeze that leads up to a mash when you expect it to fire. And yes, DEFINITELY do lots of dry firing practice with dummy rounds. Not only will you catch mistakes that way, it is WAY CHEAPER!

domokun
05-10-2009, 9:00 PM
Thanks for the video and other advice. I will try it next time I'm at the range.

Here's the PDF with more detail and explantion....

http://www.ashcavai.com/mnsl/target_analysis_guide01.03a.pdf

jlh95811
05-10-2009, 10:41 PM
Another interesting thing is your sight picture. You may be squeezing your fingers in anticipation of the trigger breaking as I used to OR you may be using an improper sight picture for your gun. If you don't have the sight picture right then your only issue may be too much or too little finger on the trigger as shown in the video posted of Todd.

When I first got my XD I was shooting a bit low because I was using too high a sight picture for that particular distance.

JagerTroop
05-10-2009, 10:44 PM
Then I left one cylinder empty one time. Click, the muzzle flipped "...."hey,you left you cyliner empty..." Yes, and the still had significant recoil on an empty cylinder??? Then we got down to business and his groups improved dramatically.

Ha ha. That's good struff right there.

Corbin,
Thanks for posting that vid. Now you've got me searching youtube for more instructional vids.

old-trapper
05-10-2009, 11:21 PM
try some dummy cartriges mixed in where you dont know where they are. Then practice as usual. When you hit a dummy round you will see how much flinch you really have or dont have. Run that drill till you dont anticipate the shot or your broke from try'n....LOL it should help

Corbin Dallas
05-11-2009, 8:56 AM
Corbin,
Thanks for posting that vid. Now you've got me searching youtube for more instructional vids.

Anytime!


Also check out Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch. Great trainer!

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Untamed1972
05-11-2009, 9:14 AM
I find that for me, since I have bigger hands, if I'm shooting a smaller gun, such that my trigger finger can actually wrap around the trigger (trigger between first and second finger joint) so to speak, rather then trigger meeting the tip of your finger (between first joint and tip) , you don't get a "straight back pull" on the trigger and what happens is when you pull the trigger it causes you hand to roll towards the center of your body. I say it that was because I'm a lefty and my groups often look like yours but low and to the right. But when shooting a gun with a larger grip such that I get better finger placement on the trigger my groups are much better.

I'm sure that could be corrected with more practice, but ammo is expensive and hard to come by these days so I do what I can.